The Real Reason Young People Don't Have 'The Hunger' for Work (And What Leaders Need to Hear) with Generations Expert Dr. Eliza Filby

26:21Like it was, we couldn't afford it. What else became cheap? Travel. Travel becomes this identity. In the UK, for example, more millennials have passports and driving licenses. And it sort of indicates for the boomers, it was the car that was the access point to adulthood. For millennials, it became the airplane. And then finally tech and the universalization of the smartphone and essentially any kind of technology. So you've got this weird economy where certain luxuries become really cheap and the big ticket items in life become really expensive. And then you have social media, which says, right, well, actually, this is all a comparison culture.

26:59So you need to be doing these things. And so you get this performative culture where you're spending lots of money to do, you know, three things, which is travel, eat out and spend lots of money on tech.

27:09Simon Sinek:And post all of it online. And who ends up paying for the big ticket items in life if you are lucky to have access to the bank of mom and dad, which is why, you know, a quarter of Gen Zers in the US are getting a down payment on a home from their parents in the UK. 25%. Yeah. And in the UK, you know, the bank of mom and dad is a top 10 mortgage lender. No kidding. Yeah. More than half of first time buyers in London are buying a house with help from their parents. Co-signed with their folks. So you have this economy. And let's remember, the boomers are extremely rich. Okay. They're an exceptional generation.

27:44We're never going to see the likes of them again. God bless them. They are an exception, not the rule. And we think, hang on a minute. The contract is, is that we do what they did. And then, you know, the financial crisis happens and we can't in the same way. And it's paralleled with this erosion of corporate culture and corporate loyalty. our jobs don't buy us what it bought our parents so i'm going on instagram and i'm showing my travel plans my holiday i'm spending all my money on eating out and matcha lattes and um i'm going to tap my parents for a down payment on a house so i mean i'm crudely summarizing here you mentioned something that i just want to circle back on because the thing i hear most from companies is why don't young people have the hunger the hunger it's always the hunger okay and i'm like how do you treat your kids how how do you

28:37Simon Sinek:parent how do you parent well i bought them a house yeah did you buy them everything they asked for we have a generation in gen z who've grown up looking at their parents going you went really hard in a dehumanized workplace you earned loads of money and the rewards today aren't the same and you're also going to support me if you can. And I will leverage all of the guilt you have by working so hard and missing all of my school plays. Right. So the thing that's really, I ran this focus group, fascinating focus group of Gen Z young women who'd had professional mothers, right? And then we asked Gen X mothers who were still professional women.

29:17And the Gen Z daughters of professional mothers were like, do you know what?

29:23Simon Sinek:I don't want to work as hard as my mother. The overriding conversation was not my mother was a feminist pioneer. She broke that glass ceiling. I want to ape her example. It was she was really stressed even when she was on holiday. And then you asked we asked the Gen X mothers. They weren't related by the way. The Gen X mothers were my daughter. My daughters have a point. They all think I worked too hard and I think I did. And that I know it. I feel it. I sense it. I'm a mother is partly to do with mother's guilt, right? And these strange perceptions we have as mothers that we pretend we don't have a job in front of our kids.

30:00But I think actually it's a broader question of the role that work plays in our lives and what it used to play and what it does play now in what I call an inheritance economy. And I think when, going back to the original point, leaders say, why don't people have the hunger that young people, why can't they put up, shut up, work their way up like I did? is because the economy isn't encouraging that. Actually, you want hunger. You want real hunger in your new recruits. Find the people that are not being supported by the bank of mum and dad, but they themselves are supporting their parents. Because that's a large percentage of the population.

30:41And the real truth is, of course, is we've seen a decline of meritocracy. We've seen the closing of doors and increasingly, particularly with AI, The lack of access and the leverage that parents have in getting their kids jobs and opening those doors and the rise of greater nepotism, those people aren't getting through in a way that they used to.

31:00Simon Sinek:And it's an entirely new way of evaluating somebody, right? Like evaluating what school you went to because your mom and dad paid or evaluating, you know, the opportunities you had because your mom and dad paid. We're actually potentially looking for the wrong behaviors if you want somebody who's got the grit, the push, whatever you're looking for. Right. That's super interesting. You know, I talk about sort of the rise of the inheritance economy and in heritocracy and the rise of the bank mom and dad. But there is actually a bigger story because, yes, money is cascading down the family tree. But and this is the subject of my my next book, and I'm researching it at the moment, is that is our life cycle has completely changed.

31:44and the fact is governments, financial institutions, educational institutions haven't caught up. So we've delayed adulthood. We now have a slow meandering path into adulthood and that's partly to do with economic constraint but it's also freedom. I don't want kids at 21. Slower adulthood, pressured midlife. No one talks about this. We fixate on living longer and longevity but actually the life course has completely changed. So most people think they become an adult around the age of 30. It used to be 21, it used to be 18, it used to be 16, it used to be 13 if we're going right back. So this pathway into adulthood has changed.

32:27Midlife has become this pressured point. We don't talk about a midlife crisis anymore. That's very much a kind of 80s kind of masculine corporate sort of collapse. But now we talk about midlife crisis as, you know, Gen Xers right now, particularly Gen X women are going through this midlife where they are squeezed between looking after their children, which is now a 30 year financial commitment. Okay. But also caring for the elderly, you know, and elder care now is as big a pressure as childcare on people. And actually quite often lasts longer in terms of that direct need to help your parents. And in aging society, we need to think about not how aging societies impact the elderly but how it impacts those in midlife and so we're getting this sort of really pressured midlife point where people are changing their retirement plans to get their kids through college or coming out of work to look after their mum you know your mother who had dementia you could be looking after her for 20 years And then, of course, this need to potentially work longer or this desire to work longer.

33:38So this fixed point of retirement is changing. But then also, what does retirement look like? Is it golf courses and cruises anymore? No.

33:46Simon Sinek:It's starting another business. It's starting another business. It's having a complete flowering of things that you wanted to do. You know, for millennials, you're not going to want to go to, you know, traveling in the way that boomers have because you kind of did that in your 20s. so what does retirement look like is i think super interesting and then what does life look like when basically our minds and our bodies stop working because you're going to need care you're going to need that community you're going to need that support and you become reliant on others so have you built that infrastructure financially it's interesting i was looking at the data on this last week is that the right what you're saying is the rise of multi-generational houses homes in the u.s whose houses is everybody moving into so if you look at gen x they're building multi-generational homes with millennials at the moment you're seeing millennials moving to where the boomers are quite often the maternal grandparents and the grandparents are doing child care and then obviously that care reversal process that happens in every family yeah you know and it happened with within my own family when my father died your mom moved in my mom moved in we all took time off work to look after my dad My dad, when he was ill, said two things to me, which I reflect upon quite often because he was quite a brutal man, my dad.

35:03He kind of spoke the truth harshly. And he was like, I'm glad I had three daughters, not three sons. You know, I was like, OK, dad, we're slaving away, you know, looking after him.

35:15Simon Sinek:Well, I get that. And he was right. He was right. And he also said, I'm going to make this quick. Wow. yeah and you know thinking about it sort of gets me highly emotional but what he was basically saying is you've got better things to do like thanks for looking after me but i i got this i'm done i'm done and we all took time out of work we were lucky that we had that freedom yeah i know people that have looked after their parents for near on 20 years you know i was actually listening to your podcast with scott galloway a man whose work i hugely admire and i love i love the way the dynamic between you two and the way you disagreed but agreeably but the thing that i don't think he sort of perhaps gives sort of due appreciation for is that millennial couples are working in majority dual income households right and they're working twice as hard quite often to be half as rich as their parents dual income households are the norm now not the exception and what we're really talking about is and companies need to be thinking about this as well as you know couples themselves is if women have stepped up financially in the home and contributing to the household finances men have no choice literally no choice but to step up on the domestic front and it's great because millennial dads push more push chairs change more nappies you know spend more time with their kids than any other generation of fathers before them it's not because they love their kids more right let's just be clear on that than any other generation of fathers it's because there is a requirement there is a need in a dual income household for men to step up domestically what you're not seeing to the same degree is men doing the elder care in the same way that they're doing the child care and actually fundamentally that's one of the biggest challenges i think that companies need to get their heads around is actually in an aging society what's happening to your midlifers with those kinds of responsibilities and are you promoting elder care as much as you're promoting fatherhood in the workplace what is your prediction for this young generation that's entering work what is their identity where are they going to get their belonging you know now they're being battered by messages of AI taking their jobs, whether it's true or not, you know, time will tell, you know, companies already using AI as a justification to make layoffs, which I think is a bit premature.

37:48Simon Sinek:I don't believe them, but that's a different conversation. The young generations that have been accused of being entitled, and I have my own sort of theories on that, um, which I can share with you quickly, which is, it is an entitlement. That's how it does appear, you know, what I think that the corporate world is missing is that the young generation that enters the workforce and has been for, you know, I'd say probably a good 10 years, if not more, they're playing by the rules that companies set. So just as we were saying before, where in the past you could get a job and you could work there as long as you wanted to work there, they would look after you and you would look after the company.

38:21Simon Sinek:But now with the rise of mass layoffs to balance the books, I can't rely on the fact that I'm going to have a job. So if you're offering me no loyalty i offer you no loyalty and you know how when i was coming up through the ranks i would do the extra work first do the extra project go the extra mile then i would go to my boss and be like look what i did can i have a raise and now young people will come into your office and be like give me a raise and you'll see what i can do yeah and you know older generations are like pay you before you do it what but i think they have it right which is which is because there's no guarantee that they're going to have a job by the end of the year because of layoffs, that might as well cash in now because I might not have it later.

39:04Simon Sinek:So why do the extra work? I'm going to get the money up front. I work hard. I believe in my work. I like accountability. I'm not a slacker, but I'm going to get the advance, right? Though it does absolutely read as entitlement. I think it's simply a response to the rules that companies play by. And now the employees are finally catching up and playing by the rule that companies set. And so if you want that behavior to change, treat your people differently. Like maybe not embrace mass layoffs. Maybe offer some sort of career path and some sort of security. And I mean, I can only speak from our little company, but we have a lot of young people who work with us.

39:43Simon Sinek:And they've been here for how many years have you been here? Five years. I mean, and your friends, do they go and work for a place for five years? Are they in and out? Whether they're getting laid off or whether they're quitting. Typically two to three. Two to three is more normal for her friends. Yeah. Two to three, right? And it's not because we're the world's greatest place to work. We have our issues and we got personality changes and we make stupid decisions and like, hey, don't be so agreeable. They're all nodding. They're all nodding. No, stop nodding. But what we do promise is like we're going to do this together and we'll all take care of each other.

40:22Simon Sinek:and there's a sense, I think, of we have good times and bad times, but I hope there's a sense of security, which is one of the reasons they stick around. And if you want behavior to change, change the way you do business. And it redresses all the things we're talking about, which is offer stability, offer security, offer belonging, offer cause, offer some reason to come to work other than more than just simply making a paycheck. Let people socialize, hire people that are going to get along and let them be friends. It's undoing all the nonsense that work did for 30 years to the detriment of work.

40:55Simon Sinek:That's the irony. And we're seeing it play out in these generational themes and these generational tropes. This is what I'm theorizing. I would love to get your feedback, which is that these generational personalities are not predetermined. And yes, they are, of course, impacted by technology and global events, of course. but they're also impacted by how the world around them reacts. And if you go back to the greatest generation who went through war together and went through rations together and sharing and looking after each other, you had to do it because otherwise the whole thing collapsed.

41:34And that was cultural. No, no, no, you're absolutely right. The word I want to kind of interrogate is transactional because I think it's the right word. so in in the 1950s in the u.s there was this great psychologist that ran this survey and it was asking people in 1952 do you think you're an important person do you think you're an important person simon i think i i'd be curious i do i you're very important that's very very important

42:06Simon Sinek:well if you said it who am i to disagree right okay i mean you're the phd i'm not what percentage of people in the u.s right i think americans think they're more important right in 1952 said they were very important. Yeah, I'm going to say it's high above 50%. No, 12%. What? 12%, right? The survey was run again in 1990. And let me just be clear, right? Millennials weren't in the group. Right, right. Gen Z weren't even born or conceived. What percentage of people in the US? Go on, go on. I can't even guess. No, go on. Well, I'm hoping the number went up. It did. 80%. 80 % of people nationally representative poll said they were a very important person in 1990.

42:50So let me be clear about here. This is so beautiful. But what we have is this rising individualism that you talk about throughout this beautiful podcast. Always you come back to this rising individualism.

43:05Simon Sinek:Because those numbers now that I hear them make sense to me. Because you have a generation that went through war together and humility and teamwork were the thing. So how can I be more important than everybody else? That makes sense. No, but it's really basic. Oh, so good. No, but it's really basic. It's actually one of the biggest markers is smaller families. If you're one of 12, right, you just fit in and you just carry on. That makes sense too. Smaller families. You've also got working parents. And, you know, the data on this is fascinating. A working mother today spends more time with her child than a non-working stay-at-home mom did in the 1970s.

43:42So attentive parenting, smaller families, okay, and then individualized education, in which it's always I, not we. We never get rewarded for teamwork at school. It's always individual results. And then we throw in tech, which is an algorithmic now, completely individualized perspective. You ever picked up someone else's phone? Foreign country. it's completely wild like what's the algorithm doing there you can't even understand what it's throwing at you you have this ever closing you know atomized individualism now one of the things i think is super interesting is i was looking at data at communal spaces at work kitchens so what you've seen post covid and covid's i think a really important demarcation here is the decline of people cleaning up after themselves in the communal kitchen so the coffee cup you use you know cleaning the microwave if your suit goes everywhere people aren't cleaning up after themselves in the communal spaces at work now it could be that obviously there's workers in there that are you know cleaners but it's not it's not because there's always been office cleaners it's because people have a much more atomized view of the world but an increasingly transactional view of work and it's not just because the contract is broken it's also because of a hyper individualized culture now covid created obviously this enforced um remote working scenario many of whom entered the workforce that was their first experience of work staring at a green dot 12 hours a day.

45:29Those people are now, you know, managers and some of them are now leaders, right? They were never sort of, you know, baptised in good management and good leadership because they were living through a global crisis. But you have COVID and now we have hybrid and remote working. And so those points of connection, those points of low stakes socialisation in the workplace have completely gone, which is why, you know, I spend a lot of my time helping companies not just help leaders understand their young people and go look you know stop being scared of them they're understandably this way but helping young people understand what does reciprocal relationships and dynamics and responsibilities look like in the workplace because you are just thinking about i you are not thinking about we and if i if i just focus on leaders helping them because it's a combination of listening to what's your irritations what are your thoughts what's your challenges in your daily life what's your you know your needs wants and desires let's get that out let's get out your moans but then let let me tell you what your leaders are saying about you and let me tell you how you can have the confidence to ask the right questions how you can just in a moment switch people's expectations of you or how they give you feedback you know and so we do it in a real world way and help them understand that it's not just i it's we i think this is all about power now we have had pretty much throughout history marks would concur um a power balance that swings between workers and employers right and post covid that pendulum swung in favor of employees and now it's swinging back to employers you have this new generation in the workplace and they're really keen they work throughout the night they sometimes get things wrong but you know what they're really praising of you and everything you do.

47:36And it's Gen AI. Because Gen AI is the next generation in the workforce. Gen AI is the plucky young intern who's doing all the work at double speed. They sometimes get things wrong, but they're always wanting to please you. And so I think a really useful way of thinking about this, all generations in the workplace, is AI is the latest generation in the workplace. that needs to be integrated, that needs to be put in its place, that needs to be managed, just as previous generations have.

48:13Simon Sinek:All right, you had me hook, line and sinker for so long. I completely agree with you in terms of the, and that's what triggers me, like people that don't know that there's other people in the world. It drives me nuts. Yeah, it drives me absolutely nuts. Right? And, you know, in every respect, sitting in a restaurant, I actually talked to a guy, who's a restaurant owner and he was telling me that his business is down. His restaurant is full but his business is down because at the end of the meal they've all paid the check and then they all sit there on their phone after the meal and all go through all their texts and start checking their Instagrams and all the things that they've missed for the whatever hour that they were sitting in the restaurant and he'll lose 20 minutes so he gets fewer turns on his tables.

48:59Wow.

49:00Simon Sinek:Not order another drink nothing no and so he he's making less money with a full restaurant my rule is and all my friends know this which is you can stay in the restaurant as long as you want the minute you pay the check the contract is complete there's an exchange of consideration you leave that's the deal you make room for another person that's the deal and i find it so arrogant and selfish that you can sit there as long as you want when somebody else is waiting for a table just because you want to check your phone right right that's my trigger because we've become so transactional and so individualistic.

49:29Simon Sinek:I think you can't separate those two. I think they're bedfellows. That simply saying to people or doing a workshop, think of others. It's not just you. Here's how to ask for things. It's pieces of the puzzle. Yeah. But I think that it doesn't fix the problem because the problem is that everything in my life, my work, you made the case of media and my phone, everything has been made about me. the the incentive structure is just about my performance not about the team's performance everything is me me me me me and you get the behavior you reward and if the reward structures are screwed up and the cultures are screwed up that no number of positively affected workshops will work significantly or substantively unless there's a wholesale change in the way we do business.

50:22I completely agree. You can't fix anything in a workshop. What I'm really interested in. And this is coming from somebody who likes to do workshops. The reason I know, but the reason I connect transactional relationship at work, rising individualism and AI is because actually what What there is, is a solution in there. What we have is the last 20 years, the dehumanization of work, right? Tech hasn't saved us time. No, it's made it worse. It's made it worse, right?

50:56Simon Sinek:Tech was the promise that we could leave the office. We have the tyranny of our inbox and email. Yeah. But where I think there's some really interesting, fruitful optimism to be found, right?

51:13is that AI does the stuff that dehumanize the workplace. It's really good at output. We know it's really good at productivity. It's really good at clearing our inbox. It's really good at the stuff you can count. But actually what you want to do is get humans doing the stuff that can't be counted. And what's that? What is the stuff that actually oils the wheels of an organization, but is never awarded you can never count it and you never task someone with it and it's definitely not under the line of productivity a good cup of coffee three things no three things three things listen up yeah three things number one and we you talk about this so brilliantly and i think we are beginning to talk about this much more thankfully in the workplace is care that ability to understand tap into without prying people's family situations or you know um things things conversations that

52:14Simon Sinek:used to be completely forbidden at work that are done skillfully demonstrate care okay not procedures done by hr not well-being initiatives done by external providers number two is that wisdom sharing collective wisdom sharing now we have seen over the last 30 years the erosion of learning in the workplace it didn't happen with covid if you look at the even the numbers the investment that companies used to put into learning on the job and the erosion of that it's staggering so you've seen the loss of apprenticeship the loss of learning and now the loss of mentorship and those touch points and observation the thing I hear most of most most complaint the biggest complaint I hear about young people is why can't they just pick up the phone because many of them didn't have a landliner child childhood they didn't have what you and I had which was that was the only way we could speak to our friends and we'd phone up our our friends and speak to their parents first so that formality was built in but they're not seeing you do it and you're not giving them the time to learn from you and see you do it and then you're not giving them the time to do those low stakes phone calls before they do the big ass scary phone call to the big client so that even learning those basics of professional etiquette aren't happening so that collective wisdom but also in the age of ai what you need is those digital natives they need to be teaching the elders so that that collective wisdom doesn't just flow down the organization it has to and I'll flow up.

53:47So we're talking care, collective wisdom, intergenerational sharing of learning. And then the third thing is that communication. I know you talk beautifully about this, this active listening, this clarity in communication. And one of the things that I see companies suffer from is everyone's trying to be too nice. Oh, I didn't want to give feedback because I didn't want to upset her in her annual review. Or, you know, I don't want to tell them to not wear a hoodie they should know there's a lack of clarity in people in how people communicate yeah and that is about listening and communicating so going back to my original point is what we need here is companies to allow the humans to do the things you can't count yeah and that connection point that sense of belonging and along with that learning is the way that humans can thrive and connect and build trust and clean up the kitchen after they've made a cup of coffee yeah and let ai do the thing that ai does best and that's why i'm excited about ai as an integration tool i'm optimistic i don't want to ever answer an email again thank you very much but most people now see answering their emails as productivity so let's kind of reimagine work as that point of human connection as that point of of learning as that point of this is where I have low stakes moments I'm taught I'm nurtured and I may not be here forever I may not be here for five years can I learn as much as possible can I connect with the people around me as much as possible can i care for them can i show reciprocal responsibility to others and let me be clear about that that cannot be done in a fully remote workplace it can be nurtured amen for that i think it's right but it's hard yes i don't just mean hard to implement any company that would invest in that stuff has already made the decision that their people matter

55:53Simon Sinek:and a lot of companies are now because of ai exploring that maybe productivity is everything and we don't have to rely on people as much because we can get all the productivity productivity we want and so i agree with you for the companies that are recognizing that people still matter at business and i think the question is is how do people matter at business in business collective wisdom is a thing for now it runs out right you know it's like ai people telling me you know we won't need celebrities anymore because we can take the celebrities and we can like make movies with their voices and their names i'm like okay but what happens when there's no more celebrities like yes the celebrities had to do the work the end of the line the celebrities had They had to do the acting to become famous that you could then license their voice and their face.

56:49Simon Sinek:I think that clearly jobs will be lost. Just like the production line had us lose jobs. The internet had us lose jobs. Like there will be job losses. There will also be job changes. You know, there's no accountants reading our taxes anymore. It's all done by computers. But what we have is huge IT departments at internal revenue. That didn't exist before. So there's new jobs. And, you know, technologists love to tell us how 80 % of jobs didn't exist 20 years ago, which means maybe 80 % of jobs from this day on we can't even conceive of. Don't you remember, it was just a few years ago when ChatGPT first showed up, that literally people were saying the next job is a prompter.

57:33Yeah.

57:34Simon Sinek:And you can get a degree in prompting. Become a prompter quick. Right? So like they were inventing jobs that seemed to make sense for like 20 minutes until the AI just got good enough that you didn't need a prompter anymore. So my point is, is like you can see us grasping at straws looking for the jobs that might be that some of them might stick and some of them won't. Right. My general sort of like sort of snarky response to all of technologists is they always forget one thing. The people. technology is a tool and some of the tools we invent are astonishing and world changing and earth changing and generational changing and all the rest of the stuff but we never quite know how and so i'm optimistic that things will be fine absolutely there will be job losses there's no question i don't think it'll be this great gutting of business but i think it will be a reinventing of how businesses work and what is valued at work and what people want from work.

58:36Yes. I mean, I think it's also how you frame it.

58:39Simon Sinek:It's always how you frame it. For example, I was talking to a very, very senior managing partner at a law firm, one of the top law firms in London. And I said, you know, what are you thinking about this AI stuff? And he said, you know, I'm going to tell you two things that seem bizarre and disconnected, but totally are connected. He said, we are actually employing fewer paralegals. Okay. Some of that grunt work been automated. Okay. And we, more importantly, we trust it. Okay. We're beginning to trust it. Yeah. But we need people to oversee the automation of the grunt work. The second thing is we have spent so much money on Taylor Swift's Eras tour.

59:23And I was like, eh? And he said, yeah, we have realized that building relationships with our clients, okay, and particularly inviting their kids to the Daily Swift concert is going to be the defining trait of a great lawyer. Okay, now a great lawyer is about judgment. Of course, you're asking and you're paying for that judgment. Okay, and we can talk about the transition from a knowledge economy to a judgment economy in the age of AI. I always think this is the best question when we think about AI. What is the thing that AI is exposing? Not what is it doing? What is it exposing? Well, it's exposing, I think, how weak our education system is.

1:00:05It's exposing a lot of bullshit work. Okay. But it's exposing, I think, right now is the lack of human interaction at work. and why he was buying Taylor Swift concert tickets was because business is based on trust okay and trust is built on human connection that skill of building those contacts that connection and that trust can only be delivered by the human at a Taylor Swift concert but but the point is is that two things we're disrupting the path to mastery that is a serious serious problem point and there's all sorts of things that are happening now when you you are ridding the the path of the grunt work okay i did a phd it was three years of grunt and grind okay it really was but i learned how to constantly question right that's what it was i wrote books yeah and it was the writing of

1:01:07Simon Sinek:the books that made me smarter, not the existence of the books. Exactly. Right. We are disrupting that path to mastery. And in some professions, that path to mastery is really clear and really rigid and will probably be disrupted at a slower pace than others. So what is the route to mastery? What are you asking of young people? How are you also enabling your people that are halfway through that route to mastery and need to be agile? And then the second thing is you have to nurture your human skills within your organization and and when you have a scenario where your young lawyers are not emailing their seniors to ask for a holiday or telling them they can't do the work because they booked the theater that night but are actually asking chat gpt secretly you have a disconnection problem because that gen z doesn't want the friction and the awkwardness of asking you face to face i can't do the work or i need that day off on holiday they're asking chat gpt to script the email that then goes to you like you can start to spot them now they all they all look the same right and so you've got this this real sort of challenge is how do you nurture those human skills as a generation where they've actually been massively under nurtured and are going to have to be overly nurtured and again it goes back to my point is organizations need to encourage the things that can't be counted and a lot of this stuff is highly gendered let's not pretend that it's not there's an evolution of what I call the team mum and it's quite often a middle-aged woman in the office that everyone goes to for emotional support administrative help every question and she's burdened and never rewarded certainly never paid for the extra work she puts in and quite often she gets burnt out and leaves and when she leaves a lot of things collapse but those um human interactions and that collaboration and those human skills are not being nurtured in the way that they should yeah so that's where i think the generations genuinely have an opportunity of coming together magic you're wonderful thanks babes you're wonderful you're really good this is great i mean you're you're i think your perspective is so helpful and so clear.

1:03:21Simon Sinek:And I'm really, really, really glad you came on. Thank you. Thanks. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsynic.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. OK.