The Secret to Better Conversations Isn't Talking | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 2

23:02And I think that's a very important distinction, which is not listening to understand the argument. You're listening to understand the person. What I find so interesting is we've barely scraped, we're talking about squaring your body with somebody which makes them feel heard. That's stage one. We talk about putting away our phones. We haven't even talked about the ears yet. We're barely talking about the ears and yet all of this prep for listening is eyes and shoulders and devices. And I think that these things, Even if we just start there, already someone will feel way more appreciated and heard before we've even engaged the ears.

23:41I find this, that's how difficult listening is. It's a whole body exercise. It is a whole body experience. And it is like difficult. And then in a different sense, it's also easy because just not doing the things that are normally tripping you up. You know, it's like, it is really hard. It's so hard, whatever. Or just like just put your phone away. Look at the person. Like it's not that complicated. and there are certain things that you can do to improve. And I think when I think about - But people don't prep to listen. When somebody says, hey, do you have a minute? I got something on my mind.

24:09Can I, do you have a minute? Yeah. And usually go, yeah, what's on your mind? Like we don't think we have to prep for that. That we would turn towards them and put our phone away and then adjust mindset for curiosity or to understand. And then we say, yeah, what's on your mind? Like we don't prep for that response. We just go, yeah, what do you got? obviously with practice it becomes innate and second nature for people but I think we're more casual about it and there's a caveat to this which is not all listening needs to be this intense sometimes stuff is casual and quick and off the cuff we're talking about when it matters when it stakes are higher when it matters when there is emotion involved when there's misunderstanding involved when there's conflict involved when there's human need involved like feeling seen or heard or when somebody comes in too hot, understand where it's coming from as opposed to taking the bait and just responding to the heat.

25:06That's when these techniques are most valuable. But there is such thing as just casual easy. Of course, there's such thing as casual. We're not obsessive here. Yeah, and I also think you're right that a lot of it is like, oh, hard conversations, emotions are running high. And then a lot of listening is also, okay, we're in this project of collaboration. What are your needs? Let's take sales, for example. Sales should be 90 % listening. Someone will tell you what their needs are, and then you can figure out, oh, I'm going to now offer it to you in terms of what your needs are. Or just like working with anyone, figure out what is your context, what are you looking for in this situation, and then I can frame my thing.

25:41But only if I'm listening, only if I'm actually getting the information. There's a famous sales coach named Jack Daly who told me that the average bad sales call, that the salesperson will ask seven questions, and the average good sales call, the salesperson will ask 32 questions on average. An average of seven questions versus an average of 32 questions. To your point, which is it's not just like going through a checklist of questions, but they're asking questions because they asked one question and it needed a follow-up for understanding. And it needed a follow-up for understanding. And it needed a follow-up for understanding.

26:11And then they feel fully abreast and the other person feels fully heard. And then they can be like, actually, we have that. Totally. We can help you with that. And it's really not that hard. Versus sell, sell, sell. And this is what I think people, when we say sales, we should stop calling it sales. And we should start calling it listening. Because if you're in sales, you shouldn't have to sell. And the art of selling is your mouth. That guy could sell ice to an Eskimo. That's his mouth. But really the best salespeople are much quieter and they use their ears a lot more. And there are so many simple things that you can do.

26:48Like, okay, one of my favorite tricks is the four-second rule, which is basically the average amount of silence that it takes to make someone uncomfortable is four seconds. Let's try it. So, okay, so the way that I think about it is if you know that, now you know, if you're willing to stomach the four seconds, which, by the way, are uncomfortable, then they'll take the conversation in some crazy direction. Immediately what goes through my head is I'll do a speaking engagement. and there'll be a Q &A at the end. And the organization that brings me in, they go, hey, so we scripted a couple of questions to get it going.

27:27And I always say, don't do that. And they go, no, no, you don't understand our audience. They're not big question askers. You know, they're engineers or whatever. I'm like, no, no, don't plant any questions, please. They're like, no, but you don't understand our audience. We've been doing this for years, and nobody asks questions. I'm like, please don't do anything, right? And then at the end, I'll be like, are there any questions? and I know what a lot of speakers do. They go, questions? Come on, guys, give me a question. Anyone? Any questions? I'm here for you. Ask me a question. And they don't allow that discomfort.

27:57And I'll stand up and go, any questions? And it'll be quiet. And then I'll say, I just want the audience to know, I just want you all to know that I am much more comfortable sitting in uncomfortable silence than you are. And invariably somebody will raise their hand to break the discomfort of the silence and ask me a question. 100 % success. It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing. Somebody can't stand it. Yeah. And so they'll break it. And the question is, as the listener, do we have the discipline to sit in that awful discomfort until somebody breaks it and just starts talking? It's really amazing.

28:29And I think it works really well with people. So good. It's so good. It works really well. I think it works really well in two situations. First of all, when you're kind of like in a rut. And someone like, let's say someone's talking the whole time and not asking you any questions. And you're asking them questions. You're asking them questions. and then if at some point if you're like okay i'm just gonna do it and sit there you go one two three and by the time in your head in your head then by the time it's more they're like oh what about you you know and they like haven't asked you a question you're like what about me what you've been talking for 30 minutes and so that's one way it's like this is good on dating it's really yeah it's really really good on date on dates that's one thing and then i think another thing is if you can feel that the person has more to say that they haven't yet revealed to you and so like to me true listening it's like panning for gold of like there is gold is like the thing that you're supposed to be understanding about the person's experience and so when you're listening you're kind of just panning and so listening with patience and being able to wait those four seconds are also a way of signaling like hey i care tell me what what else is going on as opposed to interrupting, overriding, defending yourself, like doing all those things that are not listening.

29:39One of my favorite other ways to kind of peel back the layers of the onion of what someone's situation is, it's a really beautiful question that comes from a Buddhist monastery in France where I spent several months. And it's the question, is there more? If someone says something to you and then you say, okay, tell me more. What else? Is there more? And this is an amazing trick. It's like one of my favorite things to do. And I'll often do it many rounds. Like someone will share something with me. And again, normally, like if, let's say it's a hard conversation. You say something to me, my instinct is to be like, that's not true.

30:14You're wrong. That's not exactly what happened. Like all of the voices going on in your head that want to show them why they're wrong and you're right. And so imagine how relieving to the soul and like how powerful it can be when you say, okay, what else? When we teach people how to do why discoveries, we teach listening because you have to get, you know and we teach them and I've learned this from Y Discoveries which is whatever somebody says it doesn't matter you start with the opening question whatever the question is they say whatever they say which doesn't matter and then literally for the next half an hour you're going to be saying what else tell me more go on what else tell me more go on what else tell me more go on you know so those years what else tell me more go on I mean some combination and some permutation a variation it doesn't really matter is there more I mean that's you know I mean I like yours too and sometimes silence does the job too just sitting in the uncomfortable silence is another way of signaling go on yeah you know um and it's magical and it is it it is magical and simply those two words go on yeah meaning i know there's more that you're not telling me and i give you a safe space to to sell me more so like hey boss um something went wrong on this project uh what happened well this this this and this happened and like nobody really knows what to do and the instinct is to be like why don't you guys try this maybe that'll work as opposed to say well well, what else?

31:31Well, you know, the vendor, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, well, do-do-do-do-do. Go on. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. You know? And before you know it, not only do they feel heard, they've solved their own problem. Totally. It's amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. And at the end, you know, they'll be like, okay, all right, got it. All right, thanks, boss, this is great. You're like, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. So teach, not only does it make people feel heard and supported, it also teaches self-reliance. Because it should, because, and I've, again, because I think out loud, it gets in the way for me, which is I'm thinking, but basically what I'm doing is talking, and I give so many answers that what I accidentally do is create a culture of reliance where everybody comes to me with their problems and expects me to answer them, and if I don't answer them, they're like, what the?

32:22Because I'm the one who's created a culture where I just give all the answers so that nobody has to think or problem solve. I've made that mistake. Yeah, whereas like when you're actually listening, people can find their own solutions. And just to put a full stop on it, because other people have made that mistake too, okay, what if you've created a, because some people who are listening to this, they've been doing everything wrong, even if well-intentioned, trying to give answers, trying to fix, because that's what my job is. I'm here for my people, blah, blah, blah. But now they've created a culture of reliance.

32:54How do you now reverse it? Okay, you've got some of these new skills that we're talking about, but you've got a culture of, well, come on, tell me. And you're like, go on, tell me else. No, no, no, tell me. Just tell me. I mean, I've had people say that to me. Just tell me, right? And that was my fault. And to reverse the culture, you have to signal that you're going to reverse the culture. So I did it out loud. I'm like, I have realized, I've come to realize that we have a culture where people come to me with their problems, and I naively answer the questions. and I'm going to practice hearing and helping you come to the solutions yourself by asking more questions.

33:32So start getting used to it because it's going to change. And I realize that, and I don't blame anybody, I blame myself. I realize that I have been a bad listener and I'm going to do better so that we can do better. And so I'm signaling that because people are going to be like, what the hell's going, because they'll notice the difference in behavior and they're going to think something's wrong. so I you have to make the announcement that you have come to realize a behavior about yourself and you are learning to do it differently in order to better support the team yeah it's like think about a coach like a sports coach if you are a player on a team and you kick the ball and you don't kick it very well the coach doesn't come and kick the ball for you into that like come onto the field and be like no kick it like this here's how you shoot a goal the coach is like hey try again yeah then i'm gonna teach you how to do it but i'm gonna stay on the sidelines and so i think it's it's a mix sometimes yeah sometimes we do need we're talking about listening at work and listening at work is slightly different than listening at home or listening with friends because at work they're very often our power dynamics yeah even with good leaders there's there's a power dynamic there's no there's no getting away from it right so is there a difference in techniques in listening up the chain of command listening down the chain of command listening across to colleagues?

34:49Like, do I do the same thing always? Like, what if I'm in the position of hierarchical, I'm in the position of influence and I have a leadership position. Do I listen differently than somebody who is, and what if you're, you know, one or two or three levels down, how I listen up to the boss? Do I just nod my head and go, uh-huh, uh-huh? Like, is listening just taking it all in and not responding? Like, talk to me about power dynamics and listening technique. So let's start if you're in a position of authority. How do I listen to someone who's coming to me with something? I think what I try to think about is how do I create an environment so that they feel safe to tell me what they need to tell me?

35:29If it's in an environment of fear, then what happens is someone is going to withhold the information that you need as a supervisor. They're not going to tell you what actually is going on. So when you feel heard and understood and your nervous system is not in kind of fight or flight mode, that's how you end up being more collaborative, more flexible, more open to different things, more curious, more able to like share your truth. As opposed to when you don't feel that way, when you feel like you're in a threatened state, then that's when you escalate, when you repeat yourself, when you shut down, when you defend yourself.

35:59And so when I'm listening from a position of authority, I'm trying to scan for what are the things that can allow you to feel safe so that you don't withhold information. You said something there that I thought was really interesting, which is when people repeat themselves. And like once or twice is fine because you're kind of like you're in it. But, you know, I've had conversations where somebody is literally saying the same thing over and over and over and over to the point where I'm like, I got it. I got it. Like, I got it. You know, I hear you. And is it that they're stuck? Is it that they're emotional?

36:32Or is it that they're not feeling heard that they keep repeating? Like, I know, unless I get a response from somebody, I will keep saying something over and over again in different ways, thinking that they haven't understood me. It could be like, can you put the chair back in? And they say nothing. Like, just all you have to do is slide the chair back in. And they don't say anything. Like, the chair goes over there. The chair. And they'd be like, you know, I just need acknowledgement. Yeah. And then I'll stop. So I guess, you know, when we talk about listening, that doesn't mean you can't speak.

37:00You know, it's not just this, I mean, I had a relationship once where I was saying whatever I was saying and she said nothing back to me. Her body language was good, her eye contact was good, and she would just say nothing. And I'm saying, I'm saying, and she's just looking at me. And at some point I go, is any of this like connecting here? And she's like, I'm listening. So part of listening is actually giving feedback. When you say go on, I hear you, go on, tell me more, go on. Like that is feedback. And reflective listening, saying back in your own words what you think you hear. Should reflective listening happen in the middle?

37:38Should it have happened at the end? Like when should we reflect back what we think we hear to ensure accuracy and make the other person feel heard? Yeah. I mean I think reflective listening is one of the best things that you can do when you're building the muscle of listening. And there's a wide spectrum. Reflective listening, like you said, is when you reflect back what you heard. And so there's so many. In your own words. There are many different ways to do it. Because parroting is the worst feeling in the world. I think it depends. If somebody just says my words back to them, I just put it like.

38:07I think if you're, let's say I'm really frustrated at you. I'm really frustrated at you. So what you're saying is you're really frustrated with me? I think that there's something beautiful that happens. Okay. What I hear is that you're really frustrated with me.

38:20How does it feel? That would drive me nuts. Really? Yeah. That makes me feel like, what are you, pretending to be a therapist? I think for me, it's again, it's the opposite of doing what normally doesn't work. Can't you hear my voice? And normally when someone says they're frustrated, it's like, well, why are you frustrated? You did this to me. No, no, no, no, no. And so it's the opposite of, it's acknowledging what I'm hearing. But I don't need somebody to tell me what I've just told them. I'm really frustrated with you. So I'm hearing you're frustrated with me. I think it depends on how you do it.

38:46Yes, therapist. Yeah. Woo, you get a grade. A. Or what about, what about if someone. That would annoy me. That would make me more frustrated. That would add anger to my frustration. I hear that that would add anger to your frustration. So I think, so if somebody came to me and said, if I went to somebody and said, I need to talk to you, I'm really frustrated. I just need them to open the door for me to express the frustration. I'd want them to look at me like, got it. Let me hear it. What's on your mind? I just need the door to open. I don't need my frustration to be acknowledged and validated.

39:20And I guess this is part of the problem with listening, which is we all have slightly different needs, right? Some people want that. I can't imagine. I love, yes. Do you like it? I love when someone values. So if you say to me, Simon, I just want you to know I'm frustrated, you want me to say to you, Alex, I hear you're frustrated. I think that. It's so condescending. I think that there's a way to do it that's condescending, and I think that there's a way to do it that's genuinely valuing someone else's experience. And again, it depends what is it instead of. So like one of my ex-boyfriend, someone clearly at some point had taught him to say, I hear you.

39:51So whenever anyone would say anything, he'd be like, I hear you, I hear you. And I'd be like, do you hear me? Like show me that you understand. Don't just say the words, I hear you. Because that to me is the reality. But that goes back to the eye contact, which is the instruction, well executed, will fail. Yes. You have to understand the reason for the instruction. Or you have to be actually doing the thing. You have to be doing the thing. Like listening is not a performance. Someone told me this 15 years ago and it really stuck with me, which is be as you wish to seem. Be as you wish to seem.

40:26Yeah, like if you want to seem like a good friend, be a good friend. If you want to seem like you're a good teammate on your team at work, like... Be a good teammate. Yeah, if you want to seem like a good listener, it's not a performance. It's not checking the boxes of listening. It's like actually being with the other person and listening in an authentic way. And so it's like, yeah, we can talk about all these techniques. I find them really helpful. These are all things that I do in my everyday life. But they only work because they're rooted in like, I actually care. I am genuinely listening.

40:52These things help me do it. Putting the phone away actually helps me. And I think this makes the case, which is if you're just following the instructions rather than being the thing, that is some executive is like, I'm only doing this crap for optimization. Let's get through this and get back to work. And if this helps you get work harder, I'll do it. But whatevs, right? And I think that that's the difference, right? Am I following the instructions because I just want you to get back to work and I want optimization? Or am I following instructions because they genuinely care about the human being who I'm interacting with, which I would argue makes you a good leader.

41:24You've shared some insight as to someone who has a position of authority in an organization, how they can hold space for someone else, at least a little, some of the techniques. What about in the opposite direction? What about if my boss is talking to me? What am I supposed to do? The thing that I'm trying to think about often when I'm listening up is how do I listen for the thing that's being unsaid is like what does the strategic alignment actually look like? And so what are their pressures? What is the context? What is actually being asked of me? It's like the thing of when you're setting the direction of a boat and you're one degree off.

42:01At the beginning it won't matter. But after you've been charting that course, just one degree off for however many days, you're going to the completely wrong direction. And so I think when we're listening up, it's figuring out what is actually being asked of me. How do I make sure I fully understand and that we are completely aligned. That way I'm not wasting all of my efforts. And so that to me is listening up. And then I also think the other thing about listening up is recognizing the kind of impact asymmetry of a situation, of your boss says something and maybe they're saying it in a casual way.

42:29And for you, it feels like a referendum on your worthiness as a human being. And it really lands with a thud and something. All of a sudden you stop listening because they've said one tiny thing and you're like, wait, is all of my work bad? And so I think also part of listening up is trying not to let all of those things get in the way of being able to fully understand what the situation is. Great analogies. I've had, I'm thinking of real life experience. I've had an experience of the one degree off where I've had it in two circumstances. One where I said something casually, it was a thought, and somebody like three days later brought me back something.

43:05And they're like, here, I did this. I'm like, what is this? They're like, you asked me to do this. I'm like, no, I didn't. They're like, yeah, you said it in the meeting. I'm like, no, I didn't. They're like, yeah, you said it. I'm like, I mean, the words came out of my mouth. They didn't want you to go do anything. So they've spent three days working on something I didn't ask for. And I've also had the other one where I did ask for something. And where I've said is like, hey, listen, our social media isn't working. I'm going to show you three posts that suck. And we're not delivering value. Like the whole idea is to communicate a message.

43:33And we're like falling flat. Like let's do something to fix it. And then like four days later, they come back with all the wrong things. Right? and when you talk about listening up it's like got it boss we're on it like yes sir we got it we're gonna make you happy right and that's not what I want and so what do you want I want people to to ask me as many questions as they need to get clarity yeah I'm not giving instructions I'm saying we have to fix something and then I'll try and get it I'll be like do you have any questions for me nope we understand like do you have total you know what we want yep I got it yep and it's just not true And sometimes even as a leader, you don't even have total clarity.

44:13Sometimes it's something someone does something that's not exactly right that allows you to or even as a client, like then you're like, oh, no, no, this wasn't it at all. And so that process of listening up to actually get clarification also helps both people. And very rarely are instructions like, go put this square peg in that square hole. Go do it by Thursday. Very rarely is it like that. It's usually like, hey, what about this? Social media should be better. Like, hey, make the ads work. Increase sales. Got it. They are amorphous instructions very often. And so I think what would help me and help the team, and this is, and no matter how many prompts I give, they're not doing the, I'm not getting listened to.

45:03I'm not getting heard, I guess. And so it would really help if somebody went, all right, can I just ask some questions for clarity about what you're upset about and what we can do better and how we get there? Yes. Does this work? Maybe. How is this? And then I think, as I think about this out loud, because I've been in both positions, you know, of course. What I think is fascinating about it is my ability to ask my boss questions about the work product that I'm responsible for that they're upset about. My ability to ask questions allows me to depersonalize what the issue is because I might go, they think I suck.

45:41They think I'm bad at my job. Oh my God, all my work is problem. Oh my God, I got to get this right. Otherwise, oh, right. Which absolutely goes through our minds sometimes. A lot of the time. And simply the opportunity to say, can I just ask a few more questions for clarity, like ask them permission to do that? And they go, sure, go ahead. Me being able to pummel my boss with questions actually allows me to realize it's not me. It's just the work product and they're just pointing something out and they want my help to fix it and they trust me. But if I get to ask a lot of questions, not only do I get to alleviate that emotion and that fear that's driving the wrong thing, but I actually will get more clarity about how we get to the solution, even if it takes multiple steps.

46:22So I think learning to listen up, which is the same thing, it's asking questions, it's listening to understand, it's being curious, it's all the things we've talked about. But that is, you know, I think leaders are taught you have to be a better listener, the power dynamic, you got to do this. But I don't think we, we very rarely teach people the power of listening up actually is so much more beneficial to me and my enjoyment of my own work and my ability to make a good work product. That one's huge. I until this moment I haven't appreciated the importance of that listening as a muscle and I think at the beginning learning these techniques like learning the four seconds learning is there more asking yourself am I listening to understand listening with warm eyes that believe in a person there's so many more figuring out how do you listen with your full body these are all things that at the beginning require a lot of conscious efforts like oh square my body to theirs put my phone away this and that and those things help us and it's a muscle that we can work and that's kind of the fundamental thing that I believe about everything is like everything is learnable everything everything we can we can do better but just like we don't expect that we'll be able to run a marathon tomorrow we we expect that we'll have to go every single day and train and get stronger and improve and so to me listening is exactly like that and at the beginning it requires all this conscious attention to like do behaviors differently and then it becomes a little bit more second nature it's like riding a bicycle and then soon all of a sudden all of your dynamics have change and everyone's like you're such a good listener you know that's just part of your that's just part of your personal oh that alex one of the reasons i love her great listener and it's just part of who you are now totally i would say good listening is the number one thing that people have complimented me on in my whole life like it's the greatest source of trust and connection and intimacy in my life and i just wish that everyone like we all want trust and intimacy and connection and to me listening is the path that gets you there and it really is a muscle we can build Which is the reason I wanted you on this podcast.

48:17Alex, thank you so, so much.