What Happens When You Bet on Yourself with Ted Lasso’s Brendan Hunt

22:03Simon Sinek:You now have something to talk about that you wouldn't have had otherwise. You know, every work review I had, they always told me I was unfocused. You know, they would say to me things like, you know, Simon, a jack of all trades is a master of none. I recently learned that that's only half the quote. The full quote is a jack of all trades is a master of none, but a master of many is better than a master of one. That's the full quote. That's the full quote. And I realized I'm not unfocused. I'm just curious. And I think what a lot of people don't appreciate of the value of curiosity is it doesn't have to succeed.

22:33Simon Sinek:You just have to try. Trying is the success. And trying is the success. Trying is the success. And you can't have innovation without curiosity. Sure. Because if this is the way we've always done it, then you'll never know if there's a better way.

22:51Simon Sinek:I mean, we have to talk about it because, you know, the fifth season is... It's fifth season. Fourth. Fourth season. I'm projecting. I have a plan. I have a vision. Thank you. That's what I want. Oh, that could be great. Yeah, that's what I want for you. Yeah. But the fourth season is here now of Ted Lasso. How much of the show, because a lot of it is your own passions in that show, football being one, where did the show come from? In 2013, NBC asks Jason to be part of their ad campaign because they've just gotten the rights for the English Premier League. He said, all right, I'll do it if I can bring along anyone I want.

23:23And they said, yeah, of course. And so he grabs me and Joe Kelly. all three of us are Americans who are sports fans who went to Amsterdam and having not given a crap about soccer before like got into it to some degree. Now because I was in Amsterdam for five years and because I can get really attached to a new hobby I became a zealot. I overeducated myself. I would watch like really meaningless games because I'm just so excited. Lots of orange clothing. Lots of orange clothing. Oh my God. My closet looks like a fucking traffic cone factory. We had a meeting with this ad company and they had like three sort of just sheets of paper of like, we think it should be a college football coach and he could be doing this thing or he could be doing this thing or he could be doing this thing.

24:02And this thing over here was, he's the coach of a primary league team, even though he knows nothing about soccer. And Jason's like, yeah, okay, let's pick that. All right, thank you. And then him and me and Joe just sat by the pool one day and like thought of bits. And Jason's like, I think his name is Lasso, Ted Lasso. Yeah, great. Because Jason likes, you know, nouns, his last names. You know, largely just took the job because it was like, wow, we get to go to England for three days, go to England, shoot this thing, come back. And, it's, you know, on the scale of what it was, because I don't think it was even a broadcast commercial.

24:32It was only on YouTube,

24:34Simon Sinek:but it was for the, an English audience. It was for an American audience, but aware that an English audience might be watching. Got it. Basically. Like we were, cause you, cause you, cause you, cause you've exaggerated the American stereotypes. Yeah. We were, we were trying to be, you know, everything from the access to the looks of English view of what Americans are. Exactly what it feels like. In hopes that Americans would get a kick out of that. So they had us come back and do another one the next year. And yeah, the first one was just a sketch. It was a loud character. Like we got six minutes out of that character and that's all we could have gotten.

25:08But the second time we found Ted Lasso with a sense of loss. Like he didn't have this job anymore. Now he really loved England. And also now he's coaching the girls team and he's like really sensitive to their needs and stuff. And just kind of opened this new window to the character in a bigger way than we thought. And after that, Jason, you know, gathers me and Joe, like there's something else here. I don't know what it is. If it's more commercials, if it's a movie, if it's a TV show. So we map out a season, six episodes and six episodes. I mean, really just the first six, but then we're imagining six more and then like a special, which is the exact model of the UK office.

25:42We wrote a pilot and it sat there for a very long time. Now, going back a little further, part of why Jason wanted us in there is because, you know, we're sports guys who would talk about sports and then eventually about soccer, but also very specifically, by the time Jason got to Amsterdam, I was already in the weeds, soccer-wise, and I had decided I was a soccer missionary for all Americans. And so I would be explaining soccer stuff to him through American sports terms, because he bought a PlayStation and FIFA for the green room, and it had classic teams on it. And I'm like, okay, 72 IX, that's like the Showtime Lakers.

26:12And this Johan Kralff guy, he's like Magic Johnson. He's like, okay, got it. And that paradigm of me using American examples to explain soccer things remains the basis for the lasso-beard relationship still to this day, which is just another weird part of the whole payoff of Amsterdam, because surely me watching all these soccer games, me watching fucking Leeds versus Burnley at three o 'clock on a Sunday was a waste of time, wasn't it? But in fact... You're wasting your life! But in fact, all these little data entries in the soccer encyclopedia in my brain have paid off enormously.

26:54Simon Sinek:But this goes right back to the thing we were talking about at the beginning, which is everything contributes to everything, right? Who's to know that the going deep and, you know, wasting countless hours, you know, watching Dutch football would then become the relationship between these two characters that have become beloved on American television? I mean, this is what I love. This goes back to what we were saying before, which is, you know, you fall in love with the vision of the imagination, But what we forget is like all of it contributes to everything. You said like you go, you hone your craft, you come back, you're better.

27:26Simon Sinek:Everything in our lives has some sort of purpose later on. But who's to know what it will be? And without these weird decisions of spontaneity, none of this would exist. I'm sort of fascinated by the, I don't know what it is. Like what we're talking about is things that are off the plan. And I think we're sort of too obsessed with plans. Your whole story leading up to this was like, I knew from a little kid I wanted to be an actor and the adrenaline of the stage, you know, and the adrenaline of the audience. And then you realize you could write and you can express all this creativity. And the Amsterdam thing was two things, which was, I get to do the thing that I love to do, check.

28:03Simon Sinek:And I get to run away from shit that I don't want to do, check. And there's this kind of magic, which is, they're not necessarily good, quote unquote, career decisions when the career coach or the, you know parent is sitting down and he's like this is my this is my goal i'm gonna i'm gonna do english comedy in amsterdam and i'm gonna leave all my problems here and just go start a new life and screw it and like nobody's looking at you going i think i think you got this one all figured out but yeah everybody's gonna be looking like what are you talking about and i think where i'm arriving and this is why i'm sort of enjoying this which is who knows yeah you know who knows what would have happened if you stayed.

28:44Simon Sinek:Who knows? You know, who knows? You know? And I think about that often and like, because the flip side of it is also like, if once I left Amsterdam, shouldn't I have just gone back to Chicago and gotten, you know, tried to get on the Second City train? And get to, yeah, exactly. Go through the... Yeah. But also like, you know, maybe even if I did it, maybe I was too high strung then and I would have pissed people off or, you know, like maybe I wasn't the person yet who would have been able to make the most of that opportunity. The chaos theory of it, of like the different ways that things could have gone better or worse, you know, you can lose sleep over that completely.

29:20But yeah, sometimes just going with the flow is right.

29:26Simon Sinek:In a time where drama and conflict is the thing, you know, the great British baking show, The Bake Off. I think it's probably some of the finest television that was ever made in the history of television. Not, I'm saying this to somebody who. No, we know our place. Okay. Ted Lasso's, I promised you a close second. Thank you. But the reason is, is because it's a competition. There are winners, there are losers. Somebody gets voted off the island every week, and yet they help each other. And I think that is, for me, the metaphor for life, which is absolutely compete, absolutely work hard to advance yourself, and help each other along the way.

30:03Simon Sinek:That, to me, is the metaphor for life and the metaphor for career. And the thing that I think we all fell in love with the Ted Lasso show, which is it's a show about optimism. it's a show about positivity it's a show about taking care of each other which is quite different than what especially american television you know reality tv show where they make people seem evil in the editing and they create artificial conflict for our entertainment and it's a very european thing to have a show that's quite positive without all the artificial conflict where it's a very american thing to you know instigate yeah and i don't know was that because the three of you had European experience?

30:45Simon Sinek:Is it because you were frustrated in your own lives? Like where did that doubling down on optimism, which is a very un-American way to make a TV show, where was that? Because we're grateful for it. Well, thank you. The kernel of it for me, and my kernel is probably smaller than Joe's and definitely smaller than Jason's, but was, if we're gonna have this show, I mean, by the time, after the commercials and we're making it a larger project, we're going to have this show and this American and this European world, how's he going to stand out? There's nothing Europeans find more annoying about Americans than their chipperness.

31:23The believe sign is an example. The believe sign is a distillation of what was going to be a larger idea of Ted putting up a thousand corporate, keep at it type slogans. Hang in there, meow. Like all those. and just how much that would infuriate, you know, a footballer like Roy Keane. Right. And, you know, that just kind of just got distilled down like, okay, well, you know, it's not like all English people are grumps. We're not saying that necessarily, but they're not as cheery as the Midwest. But there's a stiff upper lip thing, you know.

31:57Simon Sinek:They put up with shit better than anybody on the planet. And sort of accidentally that is really where the culture clash of the show is more than like, He doesn't know what side of the street to look at when he crosses the street. That was the American quality that was sort of organically the part of it, like just this Midwestern-ness. And this Midwestern-ness in a competitive world that wants no part of it whatsoever until it does. We had a company off-site. And we did all these personality profiles of the entire team and the entire company. and they evaluated like, do we have the right mix of the right personalities to make a good team and all of this stuff?

32:39Simon Sinek:And at the end, the, what do they call them? The evaluator, whatever. The administrator. Yeah, the ministerers. Yeah, exactly. They said, well, we've got some bad news. Like if your company were a personality, you'd be Ted Lasso. And we were all like, that's awesome. that is awesome and we were diagnosed as Ted Lasso as a company why was it bad news? because we didn't have enough like brr you know like we didn't have enough backstabby you know like we scored very poorly on like aggression cutthroat cutthroaty you know and I gotta say as the owner of the business I was really proud you know because you know we're called the damn optimism company That damn isn't in the word, but that would be hilarious.

33:33Simon Sinek:I'm changing the name to the Damn Optimism Company. Oh, boy, the paperwork is going to be ridiculous. It's true. You can do a DBA. Okay, fine. But we're called the Optimism Company, and to be diagnosed as Ted Lasso was one of the greatest victories I think I've achieved culturally. I'm curious for actors. You know, we fall in love with the characters you play. That is sometimes the person, but sometimes way not the person. how important was it for you to make sure that like did you want to play somebody completely different to you did you want to bring yourself into it you're you're one of the writers you can do whatever the hell you want i'm so curious as a writer and as a performer where is the overlap because i mean you know way more actors than i do and they are not the characters they play and yet we treat them as the character who is the guy the guy who played joffrey on on game of thrones i think he got out of the game because people would just mean to him the whole time because they thought he was an asshole he's playing a character he's back in in the business now and he took it he took it yeah a long he has said that that is that is not entirely true okay he's not saying that he really legitimately just was going to school and he wanted to go to school and focus on that but it's also true but people were not like people didn't and people didn't like him yeah specifically you know they're like that had yelling at him while he's walking down the street the poor kid and that's my point like we confuse the characters you play with who you are i'm so curious as to is that a good thing is it about like how much of you is coach beard and that you did that because you wanted that or did you just want to play somebody just for fun that's nothing like you like people who like playing bad guys he's uh on the outside not like me in that you know he doesn't talk much and he's happy to sit and wait i am a bladder mouth and um and i tend to like, you know, like, want to go do something.

35:18But he is very much like me in that, you know, I've, he's had an atypical path to his current, known his career. And so have I. And so we've sort of taken that and exploded it basically, you know, I certainly haven't been in a lumberjack competition, nor have I won a chess competition.

35:34Simon Sinek:But this kind of like, write what you know, kind of thing? To a degree, there's a little bit of Jason in Ted Lasso as well, or vice versa, I guess one of the two, that dynamic we discussed earlier of me, you know, explaining soccer in American flashcard terms is really us. So it just followed that then, you know, Beard's just a little bit like me. And the evolution's character has been kind of another like random path. Like when we were first writing the first commercial, I had pictured it like I was going to have a bunch of stuff to say. And we'd have these back and forth. And Joe Kelly, who is a genius, Joe Kelly was like, bad news, man.

36:13You shouldn't talk. I'm like, what? Yeah. But I'm an actor. I mean, he's going to be doing all the talking and speechifying and the coach who runs the room. You need to be the guy who comes in surgically with just the word that hits. Like, oh, that's 100 % right. And that also dovetails with something Josie O 'Reilly would talk a lot about at Boom, is like watching a scene, before you enter that scene, ask, what does it need? And so Beard is like the manifestation of what does it need he just he just waits and like right now um ted needs me to learn the rules of soccer got that and like now what does it need i gotta go talk to this nate guy you know and there's a there's a wonderful like selflessness to that that i think is pretty fun but he's only named beard because he didn't have a name in the first commercial you know he's never referred to second commercial he's referred to and like what should his name be and again we love nouns so it's coach beard but that's only because i had a beard in the first one and i only had that beard because I happened to be doing a play that I had written where I played a homeless person and first time in my life I'd ever have a beard and because I happened to write that play now I can never shave again so it was a placeholder the beer's like he's got a beard call him beard was it a placeholder it wasn't a placeholder so much as it was like inspiration yeah it was like it was like it doesn't really matter you know look at the thing beard that's beard, he's beard, great, he's beard.

37:37We didn't know we were going to do even another commercial, more than, you know, certainly not a whole TV series by this point, so there was no sense that it would stick. In terms of the larger question of, like, is it important to me for, you know, a character in this dynamic of, like, being able to contribute to it?

37:54Simon Sinek:You get to write whatever you want, yeah. Again, when I was in college, we were awash in Steppenwolf quotes, and there was a John Malkovich quote I remember hearing sophomore year, which was, acting is not about trying to become someone you aren't, it's about being someone you are. which I, you know, as a sophomore especially, I was like, whoa! But that's really just, you know, bring yourself to the character. Like, who would I be in this position? Yeah, yeah. I don't have a symmetrical face. Like, I'm not going to be a lead on most TV shows, which means, in polite casting agent terms, I am specific.

38:25So I'm going to be playing a lot of eccentric characters. And, like, sure enough, if you go to my IMDb, it'll literally say evil clown, sex murderer, pitch hiker, you know? and so since I get to play all these sort of you know off-center people it's a little easier than to to bring myself to it you know it's not like you're Hamlet you're Hamlet you were prince and your dad died go you know I'm trying to find like what's different about you know me from this character and like inhabit that but also you know on my secret insides a little bit like me one way or another and with beer we've just been able to extend that to like okay I went to college in central Illinois, so he's from central Illinois.

39:03I went to Europe for a while, and things got a little nuts, and we haven't maybe quite gotten to that with Boone. Oh, no, we have with Beard, because now we know that he knows Dutch, and if you put him in Amsterdam, by the end of the night, he's going to have a David Bowie costume. Well played, by the way. Thank you. That episode was well played. My favorite. So, yeah, it wasn't really a choice or a preference. That is nothing that's just the way it worked out, but I think my instinct, even unconsciously, you know, if I was to write characters for myself going forward, I would still be including a fair amount of myself in them.

39:34Yeah, I'm so fascinated by, I'm not a performer.

39:37Simon Sinek:I've never acted. Although some would argue because I stand on stage, I'm a performer. You're a natural, baby! I'm fascinated by the art of acting and the idea of bringing yourself. And some of the things that I find very difficult about acting, which is how do you play a part when you know everything that's going to happen? It's like somebody's about to burst in the door and surprise you. You know that. but you have to pretend that you didn't like that concept is mind-blowing to me and it's amazing how few people are good at it because they know you know and they can't help confuse it and i'm i'm fascinated by the like where you want yourself in it and where you don't where's the line where you sort of let go as an actor oh well yeah the notion of i would never do that is one that i think like an actor can't really let them have even no matter how well you know this character even like you better think twice before you say that because like you might not normally do that but here are circumstances that are putting you in a position where you have to do that right you know whatever whatever it is something horrible even yeah exactly where is your line like where is your line that would get you to this point where you would do this thing that you wouldn't ordinarily do because this person's line is here so find that border for you for yourself i think that's where i would struggle as an actor because i struggle to disconnect myself from the character it was like like you know a character that would you know do something horrible violent or immoral And I was like, but I would never, you know, I couldn't, I can't imagine doing this.

41:02Simon Sinek:Then I say, well, I guess I could play a character doing that. And you're like, no, no, no, no. You have to find the circumstance that you would actually do that to play this effectively. And that's what I have such respect for, that you're willing to let your mind go to some pretty dark places to find the motivation to play these characters effectively. I guess that's the craft. Yeah. And also, you know, and Jason talks about this a lot, too, but like we're very we're very fortunate that we are having this, you know, big ride on characters who are super nice. You know, fair point. Like I'm not getting stopped in an airport for King Joffrey reasons.

41:35Simon Sinek:People are cheering you when you walk past. Yeah. They're not they're not waiting to poison my drink because they know that's the only way to kill me. As an actor, you know, was there a character you played where it challenged you, the person? the hardest i've struggled was you know to play a part might not technically be what you're asking for again because like it is another thing that i wrote but the play i wrote where i had the beard called absolutely filthy and the conceit of it is that it's the pigpen gang as grown-ups but focused on pigpen excuse me the peanuts gang that's grown up and focusing on pigpen yeah um and pigpen is still dirty so dirty that he's homeless and he's a little bit mentally disturbed and he finds himself in front of a church where they're having the funeral for charlie brown and the whole gang are coming back to this, but they won't let him in because he's, he's disgusting.

42:21And they're all doing fine. There was a lot of me in that and what my life was at the time, which, you know, it was not even conscious when I had the idea, but now looking back, it's, you know, it's not even dime store psychology. It'll cost barely a nickel is like, that was me feeling worthless because so many of my peers were doing so well. And so the, the, the play has a lot of like speeches and, you know, crazy guy revving himself up on a street corner and type of stuff. and like it was not my biography by any means but it still was like how you felt plumbing you know plumbing a bit of like like how fucking shitty i felt sometimes about how things were and this again was you know pre-therapy you know almost exactly pre-therapy because i'm like a year later i gotta shrink so now you're writing happy shit oh yeah no i'm a fucking i'm a dreamboat

43:09Simon Sinek:um but it goes from writing being a homeless guy to being a coach but like getting getting into that every single night because that show did pretty well, well enough to run a few different places. And by the way, footnote, the conceit for his cloud of dirt, the ever-present Pigpen cloud of dirt, was that's when I learned to be a really good hula hooper. So I had a hula hoop, and I would hula hoop the whole show, and no one would ever mention it or acknowledge it. And yeah, well, you know, that's when I found out. Oh, hula hooping. Great for the core. Oh, my abs. My abs in 2012, Simon. Oh, you should have seen them.

43:41They glistened. They're beautiful. Going into yourself can be just as hard as trying to get into someone else.

43:47Simon Sinek:What's the project that you worked on, commercially successful or not, of all of the things you've done in your career, that if you had one thing that was like this all the time, you'd be the happiest person alive? Like something that was just, you look back at your career and be like, I wish everything was like that one. The next play I wrote was called The Art Couple. and the art couple was basically it was Neil Simon before he's written The Odd Couple before he's super famous wanting to be a more of an artist and so he imagines The Odd Couple but at the same time he finds out that Vincent van Gogh and Paul Gauguin were mismatched roommates in the south of France and so his first draft of The Odd Couple is not about Felix and Oscar it's about Vinnie and Pauly.

44:35And the play alternated between being set in the Greenwich Village in the 60s as he's writing it, and then seeing some of the play, which had a degree of shot by shot from the odd couple, but being these two French dudes. I played Van Gogh, had a really good time, we had this great cast. And right now I'm doing the solo show Movement You Need, which might be coming to Broadway 2027. And it's so fun and so incredible to do. But if I had to pick one, I would rather I have this one where I get to hang out with other people, you know, because this was a cast of nine and everybody was great. And everyone was so funny.

45:10And I made sure everyone had a lot of stuff to do, but then also it got, it was about to move to a big theater in LA and it got canceled for COVID. Like we were set to open March 18th of that year. The sets were up. We were two days away from tech weekend. And then suddenly at this rehearsal, all we can talk about is the odd combination of Tom Hanks and Rudy Gobert because those guys had that COVID we've all been hearing of. And the next day, everything shut down.

45:34Simon Sinek:What was it about that play, of all the incredible things you've done in your career, and you've had a storied career, and now one of the most popular shows on television, what was it about this play that stands out amongst all those things, that that's the thing you wish it was, you want more of, you want more of that, please, in your career? I guess because it was still something where I'm contributing a ton to it. I think that's important. I wouldn't want to be doing something forever that I can coast on. and it's not solitary. And I guess the only reason I wouldn't choose Lasso per se is because the Lasso gig, it takes a lot out of us.

46:09Those of us especially who are in the cast and also writers and also producers, it's a real bear. And you've got to relocate your family for a long time and all these things. And worth it, love it. If you're asking me what's my favorite gig I've ever had, that's my favorite gig I've ever had. But if that was to do one thing for the rest of my life, it would be a play like Our Couple. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory.

46:31Simon Sinek:Something specific that I can relive with you. Sure. In late January of 1986, and every Sunday back then, my parents divorced when I was two. My mom remarried in 83. My dad came back around, and we would see him every Sunday, me and my younger sister. But this particular Sunday, mom woke me up earlier than usual. She says, get up, your dad's taking you to the game. The game was the NFC Championship game between the 85 Bears and the LA Rams. I'd been to one Bears game like years earlier that I didn't even remember. And I was besotted with the 85 Bears. I absolutely loved that team. And I was looking forward to watching the game with Dad.

47:06I mean, Dad was not the most resourceful cat at the time. You know, he did not have a regular job as far as I knew. For him to somehow find tickets was beyond imagination. And, yeah, we had a complicated relationship as life went on, especially. But that day, just a day of, you know, so much joy. And I never let go of the surprise of the day. Like the surprise of getting that news when I woke up was part of it all the way through to Wilbur Marshall scoring his touchdown. And like, holy shit, my dad did this. Now, he then, not intentionally, he sort of then traded on that success for a very long time before I began to consider some other misdemeanors.

47:46But that, that was a mind-blowing day.

47:49Simon Sinek:of all the cool things you mean you had happy times in your life in your childhood what was it specifically about that one part of it was the was the event part of it was the fact that they actually won and they didn't just win they shut out the ranks 24 nothing after having shut out the giants you would have you would have had that experience if you watched on television of the bears winning yes but it's but it's magnified by being there and because like the bears weren't just something i was enjoying like we would watch the bears every sunday you know unless they had a Thursday night game or Monday night game.

48:18So that was married to the rebuilding of my relationship with my dad, was going to him and my grandma's house and having these Sundays built around either watching the Bears or if it wasn't NFL season, around watching Rawhide. So for dad to come through in that unexpected way and then for the Bears to come through, because at that time, I still never experienced a championship, and this was still a city of choking teams. In 83 and 84, consecutively, the Sox and Cubs both lost in the championship series. To get the double dose of wins was awesome. And I remember walking towards Soldier Field with my dad and just the mayhem of everyone walking around.

49:01It wasn't the same as going to a regular Cubs game.

49:05Simon Sinek:And what was it about the play of the Pauly and Vinny, Vinny and Pauly, of all the cool things you've done in your career? and all, like, I mean, talk to me more specifically about what it was about that that you just cling on to with such, you know, with such nostalgia, with such, you know, you have such a connection to it. Definitely, like, you know, it's the loose end because it got canceled. Sure. Getting to play with others. It's sort of a sneakily personal show, too, because it is about, on some level, a dichotomy of, like, you know, being an artist who doesn't give a shit and being someone who's very aware of their audience.

49:43because Sam Shepard becomes a character in it as well. And Sam Shepard, who was largely popularized by Steppenwolf and that connection there. And Neil Simon, when he wrote this play, was a TV writer. It's the part of me that has grown up into someone who has lasso considerations in the world and all this crowd-pleasing. And the part of me that came to my artistic self at a school that didn't have on-camera classes. you know like sort of the dirty way of doing things and the clean way of doing things yeah like it's not it's a comedy but it's it it's not one that is removed from my soul you know there's some of my soul in there too and yeah i don't know hearing people's laughs is is is more fun than

50:28Simon Sinek:than you've done comedy you've done all those you've heard people's bluffs you've written things before some of the things you wrote were semi-autobiographical like i'm trying to sort of get at what specifically was about that one play that you just have such warmth towards it given all the success of ted lasso you'd think you know it's oh ted lasso of course you know but this play that didn't even get to the big stage yet you just look at it be like oh more of that please i mean maybe because it was like my last thing that i you know loved doing before lasso wiped out everything you know in a way and took over and became the life down there's an it is yeah you know it's like like oh because because that you know that doing that play at that scale like i hope it comes back in a bigger scale someday sure but but doing shows at that scale that's what i had been doing since i mean really since college so like since 1989 and that was my last time doing that and probably will be my last time doing that i mean i've had this one show that i've been building etc etc and that kind of went through that phase but it's more if you're asking me again to do what i'm doing the rest of my life i don't want to do a solo show for the rest of my life.

51:34I do want to have playmates in the playground with me.

51:38Simon Sinek:The thing that I'm taking away from this whole conversation with you, and I think it's the thing that I really am drawn to you as a writer, as an artist, is there's a purity about you. There's a purity in your work. You know, you go back to the beginnings of like the honing of the craft, the 10 ,000 hours, and the fact that you have the kind of commercial success now on one of the most successful shows in television that you would think would be the dream. you know and of course you love it you're grateful for it you have fun with it yes yes yes notwithstanding but as an artist there's the purity of just as you said sort of playing with other creative people and the way you rattle off people's names with such respect people who some of us know some of us don't but you you carry the names of people who are and you refer to more than one person you know as a genius and you have such respect for art and the craft and creative people and the making of craft you're writing shows about other artists, about Neil Simon and Charles Schultz.

52:35Simon Sinek:You've got Peanuts and you've got The Odd Couple and you're writing sort of these variations on other people's works. You're taking a look at their characters. And you said it's where, you're not playing these characters, the homeless guy per se, but like there's the emotion. And this is the purity of art, isn't it? Which is that's finding that nugget and looking for where else you can find it and bringing it to life through these familiar things. Even the stereotypes of the way the Europeans and the Americans relate to each other. And I just think, you know, in this day and age of pursuit of followers, pursuit of fame, pursuit of contracts, you know, on major streamers, sort of like what's happening to all the artists, the purity, the purity of ours, we're not really investing in small things anymore.

53:17Simon Sinek:You know, they're taking big bets on famous people and things like that. And I really, really, really, really hope that you continue to write, whether they become big stage or small stage, I really hope you continue to write stuff like you have been writing. I want to see them. I'm kind of annoyed that they're not available. Well, that's all very kind of you to say, and I guess now is when I've got to tell you, I just use AI. It's all AI now. It's just so much faster. I've got kids. Let's not be purist about this, really. Come on, we've got to be practical. And on that note, thank you so much.

53:49And on that note, I have to

53:51Simon Sinek:ask questions. Oh, sure. That's your milieu. That's my milieu. Well done! Been sitting on that. Well done. What's it called in comedy when you go full circle? Classic callback, Simon. Classic callback. Well done. In the movement you need, you show how humor has been a tool to get through the hard stuff. When did comedy transform from being something you did into something you needed? Probably from the first times I was making my mom laugh. My mom was, as I talk about movement you need, she was a mom, of course. she's a person and so a label like this is rather um reductive but uh she's an alcoholic and her version of alcoholism would would make her like a bit mean and i know now that she was just she was transmitting the parenting that that she got but the times when i made her laugh sometimes by accident as a kid were like the best you know it was like holy shit i just made mom laugh okay and that is absolutely what has you know set me on my path and it took me a very long time to realize that i really realized it you know probably since writing movement you need and maybe that's why i want to be doing art couples because yeah the sound the sound of laughter is better than just shooting something and and hoping people laugh later on their own i get that it's one of the bad thing one of the sad things of like writing books or making videos is i don't get to see or hear the impact and when people come up to me and be like your book had an impact on me it's It's like, I'm always exciting because I didn't get to, I wasn't there.

55:24Yeah. The first time we got to attend a screening of a Ted Lasso episode, which wasn't until season two because of COVID things. Yeah. It was like so jarring, you know, because we've been doing this show, you know, it's on our own for a while. But then hearing a full theater of 500 people, whatever it was, was like, oh, shit, this is, people really do like this. Okay, this is all right.

55:43Simon Sinek:We're all very excited for season four of Ted Lasso. A lasting message from the first three seasons is that belief is something you give people before they've earned it. Now that Ted and Beard are coaching a women's soccer team, how did the believe message show up in your approach to this new story? You know, people sort of are like, you know, we're getting asked the sort of like questions. I don't mean by interviews, but like by, you know, just friends and family, really. They don't quite come out and say it, but I know what they're saying of like. basically a version of like are you going to win at any you know again like that kind of stuff and like we never gave a shit about any of that when we were making the show and like we're not going to start now um but we also you mean purity oh darn your data points and you know here we are we're we're not entirely starting over but we're starting we're kind of starting over you know like with this new team and a lot of new stuff.

56:43And yeah, you just on a base level have to, you know, the flip side of belief is trust. You know, we just got to trust the work and put our heads down and trust our instincts and trust the people in the writer's room and then the people in the studio and the people in the set. So yeah, just that's where the belief is for me.

56:58Simon Sinek:There's a great quote of yours. The conclusion you first draw about someone is often informed merely by what you're bringing to it. And it will lead to your underestimating the full depth of the people you have so judged, what's the other side of unlearning that what kind of relationship or life does it make possible? Wow, that is a complicated sentence for me. Where the fuck did I say that? Yeesh. Definitely deep. Remember that time you said? Yeah, we were drunk at three clubs that time? You were recording? Jesus. Yeah. I think people often forget that their shit stinks too. One of the nicest compliments I ever got was from a friend who was one side of a divorce of a marriage between two friends.

57:40One of the first like, oh, two of our friends are getting married, not just your friend marrying someone who you're going to get to know. And then they got divorced. And because we were younger folks, a lot of people chose their side. I like to think that when people get divorced in their 50s, whatever, you don't do that anymore. I don't know. But I did not choose the side, not really by conscious thought. I just never thought to. They're both my friends. They had a thing. Now, also, though, they were not the first people of that generation that I knew to get divorced. That was me. And I got divorced because of mistakes I made.

58:13So a friend said to me, like, you know what I like about what I appreciate you, Brendan? You don't pick sides. I mean, that was the literal words. And I was like, oh, I guess I don't. But it's because I bet you made mistakes, and I bet you made mistakes. And I know that because I made mistakes. And since everyone's making mistakes, let's assume that we're not bad people and assume that there's a longer journey. here for us than just, you know, the bad thing that happened yesterday.

58:37Simon Sinek:I really, you know, the concept of the morality play has kind of gone, you know, and again, you're so thoughtful and you're so human in the words you write, the characters you play, the things you write, the ideas you bring. I just really, really, really hope you continue to write lots and lots and lots of things outside of Ted Lasso as well, especially with your new play that might be on Broadway in 2027. The movie you need! a journey into family and music but you you're so consistent in sort of like staying pure giving it a whirl and it may or may not become a thing and like even the fact that after four seasons with the pressures must be overwhelming on the Ted Lasso writer's room you know that you're like no no no we're just going to write the thing that we like based on the characters we love and it'll show up how it shows up and you'll either like it or you won't but we're going to do the best job we can with the tools we've got and that's the way things are written the first time like everybody's first effort is that but then the subsequent effort with the pressures and the money and other people involved very very very hard to maintain that yeah i mean it was jason's call in the long run of like you know we're gonna make it a women's team and we're gonna start them at a lower level and uh and you know change the show in this fundamental way but i think that's the only way it would have been interesting to say that's something new was to start it differently.

59:56Not just new, but also intentionally raising the level of difficulty, basically, of trying to pull it off. And so, yeah, it definitely was more interesting than if we'd just gone back and done the same characters again, which would have been fun to some degree, but not quite as interesting.

1:00:13Simon Sinek:I think they all aged out of playing on the professional soccer team. Yeah, at some point reality steps in a little bit. Like, no one transferred? No one. Okay. No one's been injured? Nothing. Nothing. Thank you so much for coming on. Such a joy. Thank you, Sam. Real pleasure.

1:00:34Simon Sinek:As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. And if you want more cool stuff or just to find out what I'm up to, visit simonsynic.com. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.