What Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing with Former LA Lakers President Tim Harris

0:00When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. And here's the one thing that great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being. You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is about as good as it gets. Most of us have had more than one job, probably even more than a few. We pivot, we hustle, we optimize. Why? Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company, quite frankly, has become a relic of the past, and flexibility has become a professional necessity.

0:48But this need for constant reinvention, it can be lonely, and it's definitely stressful and hard work. So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learn to build a culture where others wanted to stay too? That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show. He spent 35 years with the LA Lakers, where he rose to become the president of business operations and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe, for LeBron, for championships. and in that time he learned something that has become increasingly rare. What it takes to build something worth sticking around for.

1:29Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine human moments and the leaders who get that do more than lead people. They inspire them to stay. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism.

1:54No joke, I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster. And mainly because you are charming, wonderful, and tell amazing stories. And the day I met you, I was like, oh, more of this, please. Wow, that's so kind. That is amazing. I need to make sure I send my friendship fees over. No, it's 100 % true. Let's start from the beginning, I guess. You have basically had one job in your life, right? Basically. basically which was with the la lakers for a long time well yeah so i guess technically i started initially at the forum with lakers played and then i trend so i was working on the lakers more of an emphasis on the building and then i moved over to the lakers mid-90s but essentially same company since 1990 i worked from 90 until two months ago it's a rare thing for people to have one job for such a long for such a long time i don't think you it's it's super rare i don't think you see it yeah very often i mean it's it's it's it's a bygone era yes yeah i mean it's giving giving your life to a company well yeah it's a throwback to sort of my father right it's a throwback to aerospace you know start yeah gold watch move on right funny you say that you know I talk about the gold watch and there's an entire generation who, when we say the gold watch, they have no idea what we're talking about.

3:19And I've tested it. I've said, hey, how many of you know what I do? So we know what the gold watch is, which is you work for however many years, decades for one company. And upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch. That's what you got. That's what you got. That was sort of like the thing. Yeah, there's an entire generation that has no idea what the gold watch is, what the euphemism is. and the thought of giving your entire life to one company is sort of like horrendous. Doesn't that go back my dad's time? Doesn't that go back be you did that because then you got your pension? I'm sure there were multiple things that went into it.

3:51Pensions obviously are part of it. I don't think all companies had pensions, but they were definitely more common back then. But I also think that it was a time before mass layoffs and before quarterly earnings and before shareholder supremacy, where everybody was trying to build a good company for the long term and make the best products they could. And the general business philosophies were, we'll take care of our people, and our people will take care of us. And so there was no reason to bail on a regular basis because you were safe. Correct, correct. I'm very curious to you. I actually don't know this.

4:26I know that you played soccer. Yes, I did. And were you planning on going pro? Is that what you wanted to do? Did you want to be an athlete? I did, and I did, and I did. And that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA, okay? And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were two soccer leagues in the US. One was the North American Soccer League, was the NASL, and that was the league that had Pelé. Old Pelé. The old Pelé. But like, actually, old Pelé. Yes, right, with the Cosmos, right? Yeah. And that league was, at the time I got drafted, that league was struggling. Yeah. The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early mid 80s was the major indoor soccer league.

5:12And the whole idea was you play this sort of, you know, version of soccer in an arena. And the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena. And at the time in 84, it was on fire. In some cities, the MISL was outdrawing the NBA team. Wow. It was on fire. I got drafted in both leagues. Right. I got drafted in the NASL and I got drafted by in the MISL. Right. And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but it wasn't long for it. I said, okay, if I'm going to continue this, I'll just do the indoor version. And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss, who owned the Lakers and played at the forum.

5:56Ah. Okay. Yeah. I'm seeing where this is going. Dr. Buss was a huge fan of it. and he would visit the locker room and this is 84 85 showtime the lakers are are on fire and so when dr bus came in the locker room and that's a big celebrity coming into the locker room and i remember this one time he would make his rounds and say hello and i said dr bus how many people did we have here tonight and like like he would know i mean he's the owner of the lakers He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team drew. I'm sure he just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said, do we make money? You're a player.

6:38I'm a player. And I said, I'm like this kid. I said, do we make money? Yeah. And I don't remember his answer. Right. But he went back to his daughter, Jeannie. Hey, there's this kid on the soccer team who's got an interesting curiosity about the business. and that's how i established a relationship with the forum and the bus family and then when genie who at the time was running she was doing tennis and volleyball exhibitions she was in need of a someone who could help sell sponsorships and her father said what about that kid right and so that's how i started at the forum is selling tennis and volleyball sponsorships for exhibitions and I didn't know anything except just sort of, I had kind of a gift of gab and I could work hard and that's how I started.

7:30I love it. And then all the way up to the president of the Lakers. You know, you and I met just socially, you know, we just met for lunch for no reason whatsoever. Correct. You really have been on a leadership journey. Who modeled leadership for you? Like, where did you learn it? Where did you get it? Was it a coach? Was it a parent? Did it come at work? Because you are one of those leaders that I get to write about. I coach. I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. Obviously, I played. And I played for a lot of coaches. And I think that coaching is a form of leadership. And I 100 % bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead a team in the business world.

8:14And I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports to business and how you motivate employees. The biggest one being you don't play on the field. Correct. Which I think a lot of leaders forget. Correct. And it's this notion that a good coach is over there. A good coach is over there offering encouragement and advice and suggestions. A good coach is not standing next to you micromanaging every move. It's impossible. There has to be a distance. And a good coach gives his or her players authority to go with the responsibility. Yeah. The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning most coaches in history, and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game, and the goal, actually the goal is to win, that the coaches themselves, these winning most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning.

9:18They were obsessed with the team, they were obsessed with the esprit de corps, and all those things. And I guess in your experience in sports and in business, that's hard, right? That's hard to put aside what is the actual purpose of the end of the season and to be like nope i just care about the team like where does that come from in some leaders and i don't just mean in sports but in business as well like that ability to be like it's okay focus on each other focus on taking care of you know the fundamentals everything will work out like i struggle with that as well we all do it's really hard when the pressures are there and the goals are there and you know you disagree with decisions you know The ability to every day have sort of the long view of what success looks like and not try to day trade in success.

10:07And what I just said right then, I could have been talking about team sports or I could have been talking about business. But there's a game and there's a season. Yes. Like the infinite mindset. I mean, I wrote about the infinite game and the infinite mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with a finite mindset when there is no finish line. But in sports, legit, there is an end of the season. And you want to be ahead. I think so much of that, so much of it is controllable. Now, in sports, there's talent and talent is talent. Right. And sometimes you're just outmatched talent-wise. But so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is within your control.

10:47Right. Right. And it's the coach's job to define what that looks like. Like, I think the best coaches and the best leaders, they define your role. Like, good teams and good businesses, the members of the team understand what my role is. That's interesting. They understand what my job is, right? This is your job. And I used to say all the time, is like, if we're a baseball team, and the right fielder decides to come stand next to the pitcher, just because the right fielder wants to stand next to the pitcher, we're in trouble. if the ball gets hit the right field. Because that's the right fielder not doing their role, not fulfilling their role.

11:30And so in order for us to be successful, then we need you and you and you to do your role to help the collective. Now I get it. I understand. You want to be a pitcher, right fielder. So independent of you fulfilling your role as the right fielder, for us today, for us to be successful today and for the long term. Let's talk separately about your desire to be a pitcher and how we can try and help you achieve your goal and your aim and your desire to be a pitcher while also fulfilling your role as a right fielder. So let's translate this to business now because I'm guilty of this, which is because I'm very comfortable in chaos.

12:09I'm just like, just get it done. And when you have a little bit of scale and a little bit of momentum, now all of a sudden you have divisions of labor and people doing multiple things. and the roles aren't clear. And I think you're right, especially when people have ambition, they're like, oh, I'm going to do more of this because that's what I want to do. Correct. Even though we need that. This idea that you can do both, but by having the clearly articulated roles, it seems so basic. And I think most companies do do it. I think most companies do a bad job, but most companies or a lot of companies don't do it.

12:36I was a late learner to this one, having to write everything down in crystal clear terms of what someone's role is. You've had the opportunity to work with some of the greats in sports, in basketball. And even if people aren't basketball fans, they've heard of LeBron James, they've heard of Kobe Bryant, they've heard of these names. What did you learn from them? What did you learn from Kobe? Oh, gosh. Kobe had this incredible ability to compartmentalize. Kobe understood what the goal was at any given point in time. And he understood the role that I, Kobe, need to play in order for I, Kobe, to be successful and for the group to be successful.

13:21And that role can change Kobe as the person in that moment. Give me an example. So we have three boys. And we were at a game. And our oldest, Jude, he's a basketball player. And he was a young guy. And Jude's as sweet and as nice of a human being you'd ever want to meet. I used to say to show my wife, like, he needs a little more grit. holistically we're trying to raise nice young men but wish he had a little more grit right and that nice young man part is going to serve him well but when he's playing basketball look wish he had more grit and so we were at the arena before a game and Kobe was standing there he would say hello and he asked Jude how he's doing and Jude says good playing da da da and and I said you know Kobe he needs a little more bite and Kobe's standing next to the sideline he still Kobe's standing on the court next to the sideline.

14:13And he said, Jude, this is how I look at it. When I'm on the court, asshole. And he literally stepped off of the court. Nice guy. Step back on, asshole. Step off, nice guy. He said, Jude, you can be both. You can be both. Because you are this does not mean you cannot be that, right? I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize and to leave whatever is going on in here or out there they check it at the door yeah it's the thing i find amazing about professional sports which is the talent like there's there's lots of great golfers there's lots of great tennis players but caving under the pressure and these elite athletes sure they've got amazing talent but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under the pressure that i find particularly astonishing you know bottom of the ninth you're down by two runs there's you know two outs you know winning run on base and you hit a home run like where does that come from i'm not an elite athlete i've never been one at that level right and but i think the elite elite athletes they don't they don't focus on bottom of the ninth i need to hit a home run yeah i don't know what they focus on but i think all they focus on is what are the fundamentals what do i need to do in this pitch.

15:39It's not, I'm worried about this at bat. I'm worried about this pitch. So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off. Yes. I read, I read, I, we all say I read a thing. I probably saw it on the Instagram, but I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about elite tennis players. What he did was he looked at, I think the top 20 or 25 tennis players in the world. And the reality is it's only the top 10 that keeps cycling through, even though the top 25 are still on the list. So how come the bottom 15, the best in the world, the 16th, 17th, 18th best, how come they don't cycle up to the finals, right?

16:14They all have sponsors. They all have access to resource. They all have the best coaches. They all have the best equipment. They all have the best diets. Like, it's all even Steven, right? And what he learned was the top echelon have a love for the game, that when they win a point they go oh i love this game yeah and when they lose a point they go lost that one but you just wait for the next one individually they save tiny bits of energy because they're just there's a they're more relaxed they're not carrying that stress and by the time you get to the end that has now built up and you have way more energy to play right so it's yes it's partially mindset but it's also the ability to just be relaxed throughout the whole game in the moment and love the game each moment.

17:04Correct. And not take the loss of a point, like it's the end of the world. It's a point. It's one point. It's a point. And you just wait for the next one. Correct. And that joy is what separated, he found, the most elite athletes from everybody else. And I wonder if it's the same in all athletics. I think so. It's basketball, there's stars, and then there's kind of like everybody else. Everything's about the details, right? It's always going to be about what are the intangibles that you're doing that that if you can stack those things over and over and over how many times can you multiply behavior right can you multiply consistently i was in the i was in the gym once and at one end austin reeves was shooting threes and at the other end a g league player was shooting threes independently and they're both making them swish swish what's g league g league is the the minor minor league for basketball they're both consistent you've got a star starter laker and a g league guy both shooting three both shooting threes independent got it both making baskets basket basket basket and i thought what is the difference yeah why is austin reeves austin reeves yeah and this this young man is is is is trying to bust through to had the opportunity to be austin reeves and and it has to be the intangibles they're both talented they're both making a bunch of baskets the mba correct they're both good but what is it that allows austin to be austin i think it's it's the totality of it when you're talking about a great anything it's the totality of it they don't waste time because i'm trying to now like obviously and now i want to get off the court and come yeah because you ran a business i mean you weren't in the locker room.

18:47You ran the business for the Lakers. I'm curious, is that the same at work? Are there people who, like the way they manage stress, the way they show up as a team, like it's the slow and steady. Do you see two extremely talented people, but for some reason, why won't one rise to the top? And there's a frustration that builds in because people know they're talented, then why aren't they bubbling up? Now, we're assuming good leadership. There's all politics and stuff like that. But all things being fair and equal in a good environment, I guess what I'm trying to get at is somebody who's led at the highest levels and had incredible success in business.

19:25What lessons can I discern as a leader on how to foster my talent, recognize my talent, see the right things? Or how can I be the talent who's, I know I'm smart and talented. I know I've got a good work ethic. Why the heck am I not getting recognized? There's so much that goes into that. You have to give them enough grace to make mistakes, but not so much that they'll make a career-defining mistake. You have to give them the ability to make these kind of mistakes that allow them to grow versus a mistake that's going to be damaging. It comes back to understanding their role. Do they understand their role?

20:04What you find in successful companies is employees who are in an incredible rush and getting them to understand slow down. But that's a generational thing too, right? It is a generational thing. And we don't need to go into all of those reasons, but young people aren't wrong to keep looking for jobs because companies aren't loyal to them anymore. Sometimes employees, young and old, they go looking for solutions when there's no problem. because I think I need to do that. And it's understanding this notion between, am I trying to encourage change or am I trying to encourage evolution? It's so hard, right?

20:47And again, I'm gonna go back to sports. If you just think about the greats, Michael Jordan was a profoundly different player from Kobe Bryant, from LeBron James. And I watched that documentary, The Last Dance. I found it fascinating. and because Michael Jordan was not the person I thought he was. I thought he was this happy, smiley, sweetheart of a man because that was the brand he cultivated. And he was a fiercely competitive guy who will happily take a few coins away from the security guards because he beat them gambling. Right. Just fierce competitor who would make up stories in his head about the other players that they said stuff about him in the press just to be angry at them on the court.

21:31Correct. And is that repeatable or is that like a once in a generation kind of talent? I'm not sure you can teach what you just said. I don't think you can say, here's your checklist of the things you need to do. And when you do these things, then you will be that. So you can't be like Mike. But I think you can encourage behavior that will elicit that if you have it within you. But I don't want to work with people like that in my company. I don't want to work with people who come in angry so that they can win. No, no, no. Because then it becomes they're pulling against it. They're the right fielder who is trying to run and make everyone's play.

22:10In any endeavor, there are three unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor. Go on. As long as. Say more. I want you, Simon, I want you to fulfill this function for us on our team. If you fulfill this function, then we can be successful. Will you fulfill this function? Simon says, yeah, sure, of course. In his mind, he says, as long as I make more money than everybody else, as long as i get the credit as long as i can be in charge and translate that into any sporting situation as long as our three words the the three unspoken words that can undo any endeavor because it's conditions yeah it's condition it's unspoken condition it's conditional teamwork yes and those three words we all have a tendency to have them of course but those three words when you put them in your pocket and you carry them with you every day, it makes success so hard to achieve.

23:19I want to unpack this because this is good. So unfortunately, we can't hear what somebody is saying in their head. So when we say, I need to do this, they go, aye, aye, as long as, right? We don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this, the times that I have said it, and we've all said it, the times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it, what you're saying is check yourself why are you saying as long as and if you're saying as long as you pay me more than everybody else the question is is am i feeling underappreciated um am i feeling unworthy or unseen is this my ambition that i'm not meeting my own expectations right right right and i think the the idea of if i start saying to myself as long as i want to inquire to myself okay where is that coming from or maybe i just hate this company and i'm just here temporarily you know but i want to check in with myself that's a that's a huge lesson right there yes it is otherwise i become a conditional team player okay but yes yes but let's look at it simon is the the team member and i'm the the man the leader of this team right because i think we have a tendency to all have as long as okay and it's just what we do with our as long as right yeah and how do i kind of manage that and try to make sure that I'm helpful to Simon.

24:38What I have found useful for me and helpful, I think, is I sit with team members and I say, hey, Simon, right now we're going to hire you. We're going to promote you. You're going to be, you are the director of ABC. Okay? You're the director of this. And this is what we expect you to do. And Simon says, okay, that's great. I want to do that. And I say, okay, Simon, you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of ABC. What's next? How does director of ABC set you up for the next thing? What's next after that? What is Simon looking to use director of ABC to become vice president of ABC?

25:20And what I do oftentimes is, is it's, it's a way of, of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self-reflection on their own journey. Okay. So if Simon says, look, I want to be the director of seat sales. And then I say, okay, that's tremendous, Simon, because we think you could do that. What do you want to do next? What do you see that leading to? And Simon says, well, I want to be an astronaut. Okay. I don't know how that's going to help you, Simon. Okay. But if Simon says, look, I have huge aspirations as the director to within one year be a vice president and it's this i need to do this okay simon how are we going to make that happen for you how to what are the things that we're going to be able to do to try to put you in a place so you can try and achieve your goal i think what we do is we do two things we start pulling out the as long as we start pulling out of the pocket and at the same time simon starts feeling a little bit more safe to share his ambition because as long as it's a condition but it's an ambition yeah right it's generally an ambition it's it's not generally a negative it's usually this is what i want for myself right right right and so if simon feels that tim has created a safe space right and an encouraging space and and a a sort of mentor type setting where simon goes look he's he's on my side here he's going to help me can you do that for every person it's difficult it's hard to scale what you can do is this okay if if simon is the vice president i'm the president i say look how can i help you i'm going to encourage you to do the same right and the the vice president talks to the directors and the director and says the same thing and the directors talk to the managers well i think where it is scalable is each line of of the hierarchy can take responsibility for the people in their care correct so i can't ask everybody on the entire team tell me what your ambition is i don't even work with everybody correct it's impossible but scale but you but you can be scaled down down to the and somebody can say, they have to be safe enough to say, I don't know.

27:23A hundred percent. Like, I like my job, I like it here, but I don't know. Exactly. That's allowed to. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to foster an instinct. The LA Lakers are a remarkable organization, not just because of their success on the court, but their success off the court. Right. I think you did a lot of things to change and revolutionize that place and help make the franchise and the brand what it has become. Right. There are many things about your leadership style. I only know a few of the stories, and I'm going to try and get more out of you because because I learn from you every time I get to sit down with you.

27:51You told me one story. First of all, you don't sit courtside. No. You could, but you don't. You have your seats. They're above where the players come out. They're still good seats. Yeah. But they're back. Yes. And those are your seats. Yes. And you give all the better seats to others. And you told me a story how now and then, especially when you've got a couple extra courtside seats that are unused, you will go up into the rafters, specifically into the rafters you'll look for a parent child yes who they got last minute tickets or this is what they can afford whatever the the dynamic is you're looking for that parent child experience and you tap them on the shoulder and you say come with me and before they know it they're sitting on the court side of an la lakers game what was the first time you did that and what was the motivation probably the first time i did it was when we were at the new arena that we had moved downtown from the forum so we were at staple center and we had some extras and i just got i had some time and i thought i'm just gonna do this i mean you didn't call up your celebrity friends no you didn't you know like because you know sports teams like to have celebrities on the sides yes yeah and we the lakers have plenty the sport of basketball is just the vehicle that's the vehicle this is the the the the sports industry is a business of memories.

29:09Like, I don't know all the stories of the folks that I have helped over the years from time to time. But I think, you know, what, what if whatever else is going on in their life, this is the biggest thing for them. And all of a sudden they get moved down to the floor from way, way, way up high, because that was either the only thing they could afford or the only thing they could find. And all of a sudden on this evening that the parent is trying to make special, it becomes life-changing. All because they got to move to a seat, how that completely changes the dynamic. So let me put on my cold business hat.

29:53The cynical hat that I know other people are thinking. Which is you're giving away$10 ,000 worth of seats. Love that you're giving away memories love that you're making sports about memories but the long-term value of the ticket holders who spent who bought the cheapest tickets in the stadium in the arena i don't have a lot of long-term value in those they're probably not going to become season ticket holders yeah their the likelihood of them being able to afford front row tickets within a short period of time is low that's a bad investment correct if if and the financial person would say why on earth are you doing this okay so it's the games at 7 30 it's seven o 'clock okay it's 6 45 i've got two tickets in my pocket let's pretend they're 2 500 a piece there's no one standing in line at the box office who's gonna buy who's gonna spend 2 500 a piece correct right so you're gonna you're gonna eat those tickets right right the money is gonna be the money's lost the money's lost already so what can you do with that money right or what can you do with that opportunity and the way i choose to have always chosen to believe this is this is in the profit and loss statement yes that five thousand dollars twenty five hundred dollars times two is gone that opportunity is gone because the game is going to be played and that opportunity is lost right but we move those two people down right they become evangelical yeah and they tell two people and they go home and they tell and they tell and they tell the lakers are the greatest organization on the planet and it scales right i believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time it's not there are giant movements but supported by tiny little acts that just continue to grow the brand okay and when you grow a brand when a successful company becomes a successful brand then they are worth more money okay i'm gonna play with me i'm gonna play this back because okay so the the argument is that if you're willing it's kind of like exercise if you're willing to just keep doing the little bits it will build up and if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will you know a rich person who gets to sit in good seats will tell a couple friends because you know i got to sit on you know i got to sit right near the court yeah where somebody who the chances of them sitting by the court in their entire life is close to zero.

32:20They will tell everyone. And the goodwill that comes from how great this organization is, even when the team loses, how I love the Lakers, ripples and ripples and ripples. I believe that. And the cost was actually zero because the money was sunk anyway. It's gone anyway. Yeah. If you've got a few thousand dollars worth of empty seats, you could eat it and just leave them empty that is an option or you could uh take the risk to do one of these little acts and you can't just do one that's the problem no it's not you cannot be a one-off you have to do it now and then yes and it has to have some consistency and at some point the brand starts to have more power and all of a sudden you're selling more merchandise and nobody can really point to exactly what it was because the team did fine last year but for some reason we're seeing merch doing really well and it wasn't directly tied to some championship, that these things, you know, this is where I think economists and sort of the internet of things and hypermetrics, which is not everything is easy to measure, but everything has an impact.

33:25And you're experimenting. You're not just, you're doing that and many other things. That's what it has to be. It has to be other. You're not taking a bet that giving away tickets is the thing. When you explain your why to the organization, the organization has to have the comfort and they feel the safety to do their own acts of kindness because now you get them to metastasize, right? Can I tell you a ripple that you created that you don't even know you created that is exactly this theory? The first time I met you, we sat down for lunch and you handed me a duffel bag. Yeah. Filled, filled with Lakers stuff.

34:03Yes. More than I or my family could consume, right? T-shirts and sweatshirts and what's not. my friends and family took what they wanted you know they picked at it like a volt like vultures i took what i wanted and i still have tons of stuff and so i have that bag with stuff in it in my trunk i'll go to a restaurant and the valet will come and bring my car to me yes and i'll be like come with me i'll pop the trunk open i'll open the bag and say take what you want he'll hold up an 80 jacket he's like can i have this i'm like you can have that right and i'd like drive away and I see him with his Lakers jacket on.

34:40Right. And so now simply because you gave me a bunch of stuff that I didn't throw away and I continue to give away to people who want it, not just randos, like people who like, do you want something from the Lakers? Oh my God, I love the Lakers. Right. And so now these ripples of goodwill from the Lakers continue to spread. And I say, oh, the Lakers gave it to me. I'm going to give it to you. It's a great feeling. Have I ever told you about Cotu being a Laker? no i never told you about going to be a laker so pre-pandemic i had this thought for a while it must be so frustrating if you're a laker employee and you go to a barbecue because if you go to a barbecue and you're a laker employee and somebody says what do you do and you say i work for the lakers first question generally is how do you get free tickets like not every employee is just like yeah i got i got tickets everywhere and i i thought in a moment they're like like you're a king i feel i work for the lakers no i don't really and so we created this program that i'd wanted and it was called caught you being a laker and what it was is we gave every employee these two cards that were built out and they look like you know the size of an atm card but they have cards and it said caught you being a laker and stuff and had some details in the back and every employee got two and every card was worth was good for two free tickets and the goal was if you're out in the city and you see someone shooting baskets wearing a laker shirt if you see someone at the mall and they're wearing a laker hat you can walk up and you can say you know hi i caught you being a laker i work for the lakers and i want to tell you i just caught you being a laker and i want to send you to a game that's brilliant okay and and the idea is it's it's evangelical and the best part the magic part of it is you don't promote it yeah you don't you don't turn around and turn the camera on yourself yeah you let it just happen it's not a pr stunt no no because that's not what it is it's not a pr stunt yeah right yeah and the first weekend we did it the following monday there's a knock on my door and steve who works in the mail room came in and he's crying and I said Steve what's wrong he said Tim I did it this weekend I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops and the kid had a jersey on and I went up and I told him I've caught you being a Laker and I want to give you this and I said Steve that's so amazing tell me what happened like I want to know what happened he said Timmy the little boy started crying and the dad started crying because we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets And Steve says, so then I start crying.