What Your Love Life Can Teach You About Work Relationships with psychotherapist Esther Perel

26:49You know, they know, for example, a propos relationships and health, that the growth of the lats, the living apart together, you know the the fastest growing configuration of couples in america today is actually correlated with the decline in health especially in men who often don't pay attention to this and so who they male partners or female partners but it means in partnership somebody says should go see a doctor

27:18Simon Sinek:even even dan buettner's work you know the blue zones which is wonderful work and he's he's fantastic. You know, a lot of, and he does talk about it, but a lot of the people that what they take from his work is walk every day, drink olive oil, eat vegetables. And they completely ignore the fact that these blue zones, that they live in commune, they live together, they eat together, they work together, they do things together, they walk together. And to your point, they're like, you're limping. You're not listening to me. And, and they, they, they know how to have effective confrontation. They know how to resolve.

27:52Simon Sinek:All those human skills that we talk about that should be learned in the playground, they learn them and they're using them into their old age. Isn't it amazing that we need to be reminded of this, that we are social beings, that we are mammals, that we survive by the connection we have to others, that we are born to connect with people? I'll give you a little anecdote. I don't think anecdotes describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting. My younger son was in kindergarten. He had a very best friend. I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend.

28:27No. I went to the principal. I said, why did you separate them? They were getting so along. It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from age six. She said, they need to learn to make new friends each time. I said, he's not being trained for mobility. He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships. It's not the same. And it was really clear. That was the idea. The idea is not how do you continue a longstanding friendship is how do you make new friends all the time? I thought that was just

28:59Simon Sinek:an amazing cultural encounter. Wow. So wow. We're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on. Yeah. I mean, they don't, it's not seen this way. It's seen as having the competence, the quality of being able to make new friends wherever you go, you know, and there is value to that too. But at five, I'm thinking, you know, this is, you can see a value system that occurs, you know, two decades later and how it seeps into the mentality of early childhood, basically. One of the things we don't think about until, you know, we're looking in the rear view mirror is what are the experiences we have when we're children that mold us into the adults that we become.

29:41Simon Sinek:And like, we know the generation that grew up during lockdown, we're not sure what the impact is yet, but like, like our grandparents who grew up during the war, you know, and during rations, you know, for the rest of their lives, they saved every little piece of tinfoil and reused every jam jar, you know, and they would never, they would, they hated waste. And the reason is it's not there's nothing mentally wrong with them it's because they grew up during a time of depression and war you know and so it it marks them for the rest of their lives as an entire generation i think that you have two things happening right now one is that we all understand that people come to work with two cvs they have two resumes they have their work resume and they have their relationship history everybody comes to work with the relationship cv in which that determines your relationship to authority, to power, to powerlessness, to boundaries, to boundaryless, to communication, to conflict, to implosion, to explosion.

30:45Every aspect of relationship takes place in the workplace and it has a resonance to the early relationships where we learn things. Family, community, cultural. In addition to that, you have now a whole generation that is basically learning to live with predictive technologies. And these predictive technologies will tell you where to go, what to eat, what to watch, you know, are giving you specific answers to every question that you have. Erasing all complexity, erasing nuance, erasing the idea that in the realm of life, many problems are not problems that you solve, but paradoxes that you learn to manage.

31:25And so these people have learned, have transposed their expectations of how the apps respond to them to how people should respond to them. They want the same kind of smooth, frictionless, polished perfection. And when there is an obstacle or a frustration or a conflict, they are often stumped and they don't know what to do. And that entire thing is now entering the workplace, especially places that are tech oriented, where this is constantly on a reinforcement on a daily with a daily doses.

32:01Simon Sinek:this is what most people i mean i think they appreciate now in this conversation you know uh which is you and i both have our own brand of trojan horse you know which is you you fundamentally believe that if you can teach people to resolve conflict and learn these human skills in their relationships it'll fundamentally benefit everything that happens at work and all the relationships at work and my trojan horse is if i can teach people the human skills of conflict resolution and asking for help at work it'll fundamentally improve their relationships and friendships outside of work. Because at the end of the day, what you and I peddle in is human relationships.

32:33Simon Sinek:It actually is irrelevant, whether they're personal relationships or work relationships, they're relationships. And the reason your friends love you is the same reason your clients and colleagues love you. It's because it's you. And if one of those places, you act differently than in one of those places, you're lying. And the goal is to, and again, I'm agnostic as to where somebody learns the skills. I don't care if they learn them in couples therapy. And I don't care if they learn them in a, in a, in a, in a listening class that their office gives them. I don't care. Just learn the damn skills somewhere, please.

33:08Simon Sinek:So I think that all your human relationships. And as we're learning, it's the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives and, you know, you know, our work lives. It's, this is all, these are all modern constructions that we're talking about. the way that the relationship exists, the way that the work life exists. But fundamentally, since the dawn of humankind, it's human beings who have to cooperate with other human beings in order to survive and thrive as a species. Correct. The rest of the stuff is just... It's the context. It's the specific context, and that matters, and it shapes things.

33:40But the fundamental dimension is universal.

33:43Simon Sinek:So, you know, we haven't talked in a while. And you and I, because we're friends, we've both cheated in our lives, meaning, I should probably elaborate. I'm like, where is he going? Where is he going with this? Exactly. Nobody knows. What I mean is, just as you said that I helped you articulate the meaning of your work, so too when you and I would go out for dinner, I'd get free relationship counseling. you know and and you and i would because you and i are genuinely interested in each other's work and in our own work and so you know we we we open up to each other it gets our relation our conversations be quite personal and so i haven't talked in a while so i need to give you an update so what better place to give you an update than on a public broadcast i had a huge profound shift in my thinking about my own relationships that i hope i think will make you proud which is i you know i haven't had many long-term relationships in my life and i'm uh uh never been married and in my dating life very often especially on a first date um a woman will say to me what's wrong with you because they'll start quizzing me what's your longest relationship you know they're quizzing me they're going through whether i i'm capable you know and and i'm honest and then they literally, they say, well, how come you haven't been married?

35:11Simon Sinek:Or what's wrong with you? Are you relationship phobic? Or are you commitment phobic? And, you know, it didn't sound right. But the empirical evidence would demonstrate that maybe I am. And I started to believe the evidence, even though it didn't feel right to me. And it caused me great insecurity. And then I started to realize when somebody says, how come you haven't been married yet? The answer was obvious. I haven't met the right person yet. But more important than that, more important than that is that I've recognized that I have focused on friendships and I have a very fulfilled and happy life.

35:45Simon Sinek:And I get a lot of what other people get from relationships. I get from very, very deep and meaningful friendships. And I have a friend, she was in a 16-year relationship. And she will freely admit that she should have been in that relationship for one year. It was very unhealthy, very toxic, and mostly unhappy. and she says, I should have been in the relationship for one year, but she stayed in it for 16 years, and society looks at her and says, she did it right. That is correct. And society looks at me, where I didn't have one monogamous relationship, and they say, something's wrong with you.

36:27Simon Sinek:And I've exercised those demons, and I've recognized that so long as I am in happy, healthy, fulfilling relationships, the exact dynamics, whether it fits society's definition of what I should or shouldn't be doing is irrelevant. Am I happy? Do people love me? Do I love people? Do I feel that I can go to someone and say I'm struggling? Is there someone to say you're limping? Go to the doctor. There's something in your teeth. Do I have those friends that are unafraid? And I think we, especially in this modern context, where the definition of relationships have changed so much to your point, which is whether we're in these long-term healthy monogamous relationships has become yet another stressor in our lives.

37:12Simon Sinek:And the question is, are you in happy relationships? Whether they're work relationships or romantic relationships, do you have successful relationships that you know how to manage and they too have the skills of having and i've recognized whether it's just me because i'm a weirdo maybe it's society but i'm much more at peace with the fact that there's nothing wrong with me so i'm gonna if you allow me i i would the personal one we'll do at dinner but the broader one i think is a very relevant question which is kind of what i was addressing earlier when i said there is a proliferation of new emphasis, new creations of social bonds, new definitions of what is family, what is a family of choice, what is a circle of care.

38:03And I think that what you're describing among your friends is that. What you're saying, if I understand it well, is that we have over-indexed on the romantic partnership as it being the one and only, the be-all, the central one, the one that everybody needs to have one and fulfill. And it also happens to be a model in which one person has to be able to provide you what an entire village used to provide. And that means that you have to experience with the same person, the sense of belonging, apropos what we described about work, a sense of belonging, of continuity, of safety, of predictability, and also of adventure and of novelty and of playfulness and risk.

38:50All of this in one relationship. I think there are three models, actually, in that sense. There is a relationship model that is romantic and intimate in which people do experience the joy from the relationship itself. Then there are people, maybe this woman that you described for whom marriage or committed intimate relationships or remade relationships are scaffolding they basically provide a structure that enables you to go elsewhere and find different sources of meaning activities shared interests purpose you name it desire you know but basically friends but because people find that if they are in the structure of a couple, they have fulfilled the norm and it enables them to go and make friendship and things like that outside.

39:45And then there are people who basically are blessed with multiple friendships and multiple binds and bonds and connections, and they don't necessarily see the intimate relationship as the primary relationship to be in. And you are right, they are often seen from a normative point of view as the ones who didn't fulfill, you know, what's expected, the code of conduct. When in fact, not everybody finds the best of themselves in an intimate romantic relationship. Some people are way better as managers, as mentors, as friends, as teachers than they are as life partners.

40:27Simon Sinek:It's really for me about stress, which is I love being in a relationship. I love having a romantic partner and a life partner. I really love being in a relationship. And in my last relationship - That's why I answered it less personal. And I want another one. Right. But you don't want to be made to feel like there is something wrong with you. But I don't want to be made to feel like there's something wrong with me because I'm not in one or because I don't have a history of a marriage. And those are the demons that I've exercised. Yes. That is the measurement stick that is used across the globe, by the way.

40:59Simon Sinek:this conversation. It goes right back to the beginning of this conversation, which is the norm. The norm may have been developed not because it was out of desire, but because people were stuck. And as you said, happiness was a, we discussed, happiness was a perk, not a glue. And it was the being stuck in something that defined the rules and roles and responsibilities of that relationship, that when the flexibility to be unstuck changes the rules, roles, and responsibility in the relationship correct and so um uh and so i think as i said for me it's not a question that i want to i i absolutely want a relationship but i i don't feel there's anything wrong with me anymore i believed i believed the very sort of judgy questions that were asked to me you know over dinner and i know i now can smile and say it's obvious why i haven't been married i haven't met the right person yet it's such a stupid question isn't that obvious you know um i think what you're highlighting and and because that's the lesson for for for many people is really we need connection we need connection but and my friendships my friendships leave me not lonely yes yes and very fulfilled while at the same time of course i'm meeting people and would like what and the other thing that's changed is i would meet people and be like try and make this person my girlfriend okay it didn't work try and make this person my girlfriend and of course i'm putting So I'm putting pressure on myself and the poor other person.

42:29Simon Sinek:It's destined for failure because of this construction that I'm trying to force. Now, everyone I meet, my only goal is see if there's a friendship here. See if there's a friendship here. Foster friendship. And if one of those friendships blossoms into something more, then I'm open-minded to that. But build friendship first. But you know what you're highlighting? As opposed to force it into a relationship. What you're highlighting, which is very interesting, is the difference between belonging and fitting in. Say more. I mean, you want to try to fit in. You want to try to fit the person into the mold.

43:01You know, romantic love is fantastic. It's one of the greatest inventions we have. But it doesn't come at the expense of every other type of bonding and relationship. and I mean what I have been saying for quite a while now is we need the spread of it we need the mentorship we need the teacher we need the creative pair we need the deep friendships we need the peripheral friendships we need the work friends we need because we don't have these ready-made all-encompassing communities that we used to be part of in which one community determined every aspect of our lives, as it is still in many other parts of the world, but not here, we need to create this.

43:46And this is a real creative endeavor, actually. But it demands practice. It demands routines. It demands rituals. It demands continuity on a daily basis. You're right that your friends make you not lonely, hopefully. And you're right that many people who are in committed marriages or romantic relationships may often really experience a lack of friends and a deep loneliness while there's somebody living right next to them. It's not the numbers and the constellation that guarantees the quality of your connection and the internal feeling.

44:22Simon Sinek:Yeah. You know, I got interested, you know, I mean, I've written and spoken about this for decades on the personal front, but I got very interested in it in the workspace because when i as we when we began i said there is a kind of a dual revolution happening at once the business terms have entered the romantic and the intimate relationships but the psychology and the language of intimate relationships has entered the business world authenticity vulnerability um trust psychological safety i mean an entire vocabulary has entered the workplace and especially the business world that, you know, in the same breath, we talk about psychological safety as we talk about performance indicators.

45:10And we totally see the syncretism as normal. And so from that place, I thought, oh, maybe I can also within the workplace address not just our relationship to work, but our relationships at work. And I started to create the card games and I started to create experiences of interaction when people know that storytelling is the bridge for connection. How do I make people share of themselves in that context? Because now we need as many contexts as we can.

45:45Simon Sinek:I wonder if the group that's at highest risk is the young people, but not kids in school, because kids, you know, the question is, do they play in the street? Maybe not, but they still play in the playground. They still go to school and more and more schools are taking the phones away or at least restricting their use. So there's still common experience at school and they still have fights on the playground. The post high school or the post college? I think the highest risk is college and post college, where they start to have some independence and especially post, you know, when they enter the entry level workforce.

46:20Entry level workforce is...

46:22Simon Sinek:I think entry-level workforce, that population is the most at risk, especially with the concept of remote work. Because if they don't have to come to work, they don't want to come to work. If there will be work for them. It's a job bloodbath. If there will be work for them. And the idea of the lion cubs learning the skills they need for adulthood, I would argue that first-level workforce, that entry-level workforce, entry-level sucks. You know, you have to be good at everything. It's not about your unique challenge. You think you have to be good at everything. You have to think you have to be good at everything.

46:57Simon Sinek:And you're asked to do things. Like when I was entry level, they wanted me to be very organized. That's hilarious. But I had to do it. And it's the stresses and strains. And I had to learn who are my friends and who are my enemies. Because there were people who stabbed me in the back for their promotion. And you can't just stab them back. You have to, like, learn to navigate. But it happened, the playground, the street was the office and the politics and the egos and the insecurities, mine and theirs and the ambitions and all of this came into the pot that was the office place. And I fear that because it feels nice not to come to work and it feels nice to have all that freedom, that as you described, the liquidity, the liquid work-life balance, that the rigidity and the structure, even to the point where companies are saying, we'd like you to come back to work and it's not just for us, it's also for you.

47:55Simon Sinek:there's such a harsh pushback amongst particularly i think younger populations because it feels nice not to come in but the question is is it good for you when i've spoken about this you know the the comments in the sections are like you're just saying that because you're an exploitive employer and all of this stuff and i i really am thinking about those lion cubs i'm really thinking about the time you know because you can't when you're senior and you screw something up it can be really bad. When you're a junior, you're not going to bring the company down. I am who I am today, in large part because I was really lucky to have a really shitty boss when I started my career.

48:34Simon Sinek:And then I got a really good boss and I learned how not to do things and how to do things that had significant molding and influence. One of my favorite cards is actually, I still remember the manager who. And what you hear is often either the best manager, the one that I adore, that trained me, that believed in me, that I want to emulate. Either it's the manager, like the boss that you're talking about, the shitty manager who really made me sweat and who I learned from that person what never to do. It's an amazing revelatory card. Now, I also like the piece of feedback I wish I had received sooner.

49:17That too, because it goes back to your beginnings and what people did and did not tell you. I think instead of polarizing between remote work and physically present at work, the question for me at this moment, I don't want to engage with that conversation the way where people can then be invited to. I combine, I do my podcast online. It is a technology where people can listen live to sessions. I also see patients in person I see patients on a walk I see patients on a screen I try to alternate it and I try to teach my students to not do their entire work on the screen because some of the young therapists have never seen anybody work and have never been seen working and that I think is problematic because supervision is the way you learn in my field your feedback session with the manager is a supervision session so I would say what is important is how we help people connect it's what people used to say like meet them where they are how do you elicit curiosity how do you make people appear like they are three-dimensional people behind that screen you know what's going on in their life how do you and can we because what happens today is you open the screen even us we open the screen And we basically started within a minute, you know, because I couldn't say, can I get you a coffee?

50:51Or you say to me, can I get, you know, that whole ritual of welcoming, of entering into each other's spheres, of saying, have you been, of connecting, you know, that smile that we were talking about. It's so task-oriented.

51:05Simon Sinek:It's transactional. It's transactional. And again, I agree with you. And I'm not making the for or against in-person versus online work either. I mean, I've had a virtual company before virtual companies were a thing. And I still do. Like my team is spread all over the country, if not all over the world. I'm making the case that it's not one or, it's one end. That I'm asking employers to be flexible, but I'm asking employees to be flexible too. that neither side should be saying it's this or that. Both sides should be saying we would like it blended, even if some of it makes me uncomfortable because I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert, whatever.

51:41Simon Sinek:Because it's not just about, well, I'm an introvert. I want to stay at home. Well, think about your extrovert colleagues. They want to see you. So sometimes we have to make a little sacrifice for each other. This goes back to what it means to be in tribe. It means to be in relationship, which is we do things for each other so that we can grow, not just that I can be happy, but that we can be happy and we do things for each other. And so I, like even my virtual company, like I remember the, the, the, do you have off sites? We do, we do, we do an annual offsite. I like, I like when the team, team meets up as smaller groups throughout the year as well.

52:16Simon Sinek:That happens. And I want it to happen more, if I'm honest, but the value of the in-person cannot be replicated. And I think what you and I are both espousing is flexibility, not dogma. And flexibility, but also I think that in person and then what? So I say when I bring people in person, I want to create connections that are fun, meaningful, elicit the desire for more. So, you know, any activity is good. I happen to do it with storytelling because I think that we are storytellers and relationships are stories. I think that one of our biggest challenges is how do you deal in relationships with the fact that somebody has a completely different story about the same relationship as you.

53:03And that's where a lot of conflict comes in. That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened because my brain is more accurate than yours.

53:11Simon Sinek:That's worth repeating because it's just so funny and so true. That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened. Oh, my God. We've all done it. We've definitely all thought. Of course, I know. My brain works. Yours doesn't. And I do it, you know, with the courses, I do it with the podcast, I do it with the card. But the concept behind it is how do I help people who don't go out enough and don't speak enough in serendipitous, impromptu situations, know what to say, ask questions, learn to listen, learn to tell stories about themselves, realize what it means to be revealing of oneself within limits in the workplace.

53:53And I think one of the things that the Lions did is play. So a card game is play. I wanted to use play to create these meaningful connections, which I know for fact improve the relationship culture in the workplace, which therefore for facts improves performance in the workplace.

54:14Simon Sinek:I mean, I think you said it best, and I think it's a nice place. It's a nice button for us to conclude, which is play doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a game of foosball or ping pong or something. Play is just bringing some sort of lighthearted interaction. When you and I go out for dinner, you and I have sometimes very intense conversations. We disagree sometimes. Sometimes we pick at each other. And at the end of every time we get together, the end of every dinner, we both leave. I had such so much fun. I had such a good time. And I think because this is what play means. You know what is play is when risk is fun.

54:54And what you described was a concern about comfort and discomfort. I am less on the spending side, making sure people are not uncomfortable and all of that. I spend more time at this moment helping people take risks because, you know, we tend to say that only when you trust can you take risks. But it is also true that when you can take risks, it increases your ability to trust your abilities and other people.

55:21Simon Sinek:And when we can understand that we treat work as play and relationships as play and all of these things that don't have fixed rules and agreed upon outcomes, agreed upon finish lines, that the mindset must be play. And that in turn, to your point, reduces stress, increases productivity, increases the quality of our relationships, gets us to see each other as contributors rather than competitors. and it just makes cultures relationships work better when you view as many aspects of your life as play you're playing the infinite game another way for play would be engagement 100 100 for those of us who don't like the word play i just think replace it with engagement and this will make a tremendous amount of sense i like it i like it a lot what's the number one relationship skill Gen Z should master before starting their first job?

56:20Talk to strangers.

56:23Simon Sinek:Say more. Didn't expect that one. I mean, when you spend all your time like this, you don't notice who's around you. You don't talk to people on a plane. You don't talk to people in a queue. You don't talk to people while you're waiting for your coffee. I mean, you don't talk to strangers. and talking to strangers is improvisation spontaneity serendipity surprise novelty you know an active engagement with the unknown which is actually one of the definitions that Rachel Botsman gives to what is trust trust is an active engagement with the unknown if you don't know to talk to strangers you have less trust and entering the workplace is talking to strangers if you just came out of whatever school you've done or not done and done any other preparation but any first job is a series of conversations with strangers without knowing what they really want from you without knowing how they look at you without understanding the codes you know you've just been 12 years in school you kind of figured out what's what's the deal what are the social norms find yourself in any job any kind of job instead you're looking around it's like moving to a new country.

57:32Simon Sinek:Yeah. Which further highlights what we're saying about, which is the biggest at-risk population is not little kids. It's entry-level employees. Now, I will add, talking to strangers is sometimes a lot of fun and sometimes uncomfortable. And the discomfort piece is a part of life. The only way you deal with it is by repeating until it becomes practice. Any skill you will learn at first has an element of discomfort. I think that we've put comfort and discomfort so much in the center of life at this moment, because all these apps are supposed to give us frictionless life that is so comfortable. And we bring those very expectations to places where that is not the norm.

58:18Life is complex and it is all of these other things. So I think talking to strangers, which is a thing that often parents say, don't talk to strangers. No, no, no. Absolutely talk to strangers.

58:30Simon Sinek:So good. So good. What's one daily habit that leaders can use to stay true to their priorities when work and home demands collide? Oh, that's a beautiful one. What is one thing that leaders can, when they experience the tension between home and work? I think for some people it's 10 minutes of meditation in the morning, 20, whatever. I mean, just quiet by themselves where you have to accomplish nothing. You don't have to meet the needs of home or work. You just have to be in your breath in the moment, you know, in thoughts or without thoughts, depending on the practice of meditation. But the meditation can also be movement.

59:14It can be biking. It can be walking. It can be, you know, so it's.

59:19Simon Sinek:It's active disengagement from the responsibility. It's a moment where you don't have to answer anything. You don't have to solve any problem. You don't have to be accountable. And if it's only five minutes because of the reality of your life, let it be five minutes. But to have a moment that is in a third space, away from the obligations, the duties, the responsibility, the accountability of each one, and it's how it pinges on you. And for people who are uncomfortable with the concept of meditation or don't know how to do it, to your point, it doesn't matter what you do. The way I do it every single morning, I sit in bed, I do Wordle, I do connections and I do the crossword puzzle in that order.

1:00:06Wordle, crossword, puzzle and?

1:00:08Simon Sinek:Wordle, connections and then crossword and always in that order. You know, I think meditation can be totally in movement. I'm using the word more metaphorically done in its literal sense. I think connecting is very important. I mean, I've asked many people high into tech and AI, you know, to connect with one person every day, different people if need be, but just brief and with voice, not just with text, even if it's a voice message. I think that we need to really hear, the voice is the first thing we hear in utero. We need to listen to the voice of people. We will be misinterpreting each other a lot less if we hear the voice.

1:00:49So that's, but in all you, every one of my examples.

1:00:52Simon Sinek:That's how you fix, you know, 55 misinterpretations on an email that escalates is you have one phone call and it's resolved in five minutes. Please, please. Yes. You are, you are one of the most, you were one of the wisest, lucid, clearest commentators on the world as we know it today. Oh, wow. And I think. thank you i hope i know i know that your your your current work is bringing what you've learned from years of relationship therapy into the workplace which as we've already determined is irrelevant in terms of the the context because it's about human relationships the quality of your relationships determine the quality of your life and at work and at home and and you are you are you are the og you are the Mac daddy.

1:01:40Simon Sinek:You are the, you're the best. I'm such a fan of you, your work. And I'm so glad I get to call you friend. It's mutual. And thank you so much. I love you. I'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsynic.com.

1:02:19Simon Sinek:Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.