A chat with Emilie Lavinia - The Independent's Fitness and Wellbeing Editor

0:00This show is sponsored by Primadine, a clean, natural and science-based spermidine supplement that's been a long-time staple in my own longevity stack. Because studies suggest that through autophagy, spermidine increases healthspan and upregulates a range of health markers, from memory and cognitive function to heart health, hormone balance, fertility and even hair growth. Plus, you can be assured that all ingredients undergo rigorous third-party testing. Buy Primadine now at OxfordHealthSpam.com and use the discount code DrSophie, that's D-R-Sophie for 20 % off. This show is sponsored by Microbes, an award-winning liquid probiotic that's now a staple for me, because Microbes, with a Z on the end, is different.

0:47For one thing, they source directly from the soil on their Wiltshire farm, meaning more diversity, with at least 15 strains of good bacteria in every single shot. it's brewed so it can survive in the stomach and a remarkable 92 % of customers say it makes a difference plus they offer micro-friendly cleaning gardening and even microbes for dogs buy now at microbes.co.uk and use the discount code sophie20 for 20 % off hi i'm sophie and this is age well with dr sophie shotter a space devoted to all things health wellness and longevity, because for me, aging well is about looking and feeling like the best possible version of ourselves inside as well as out.

1:31So together with my producer Fee, I'll be deep diving into the latest research sifting fact from fiction. I'll also be talking to all kinds of trusted experts tapping into their knowledge, along with bringing you conversations from a range of interesting women and men finding out how they age well. So this is my show, welcome along, and as always thank you so much for listening

2:00Emily you're the independence fitness and well-being editor and in fact I believe you were one of the UK's very first ever wellness editors if not the first you were also formerly cosmopolitan sex and relationships editor and besides the independent you also now write for the likes of Stylist, The Guardian, Women's Health, Glamour and Grazia, among many others. And you now host the Independence brilliant podcast, Well Enough, which I was thrilled to recently guest on. And I thoroughly recommend people find the show because it's terrific. You've had a great guest lineup and you're terrific. Firstly, I was curious, what's your background and how did you get into journalism?

2:38Oh, thank you for such a lovely introduction, Sophie. I really appreciate that. And yes, we had a great time recording on Well Enough and I love the opportunity to talk about wellness, so thank you for having me on. I started out as a health journalist, so quite close to wellness. I mean, health and wellness is broadly the sphere that I investigate. I'm really interested in how we shape our interior and exterior lives in different ways. But I kind of started out from a place that I think is probably quite familiar for a lot of health journalists and health founders in that I myself was not feeling very well.

3:07So I was quite curious as to how I could access information. And I found that the information I needed wasn't necessarily there. I specialised in writing about women's health and I very quickly became the vagina correspondent in the UK because I was the person people came to if they wanted someone to talk about something maybe a bit spicy or a bit complex. And I think some people were still quite wary of specialising in that area. One, because as health editors, we're obviously not doctors, so you need to get it right. And secondly, because there's still a lot of shame attached to talking about things like periods and gynecological health.

3:43And that was something I was really keen to unpack and talk about in the UK media. But a lot of other people did feel quite uncomfortable about it. It wasn't always easy either. You know, I got some weird messages about pieces that I'd written. But this has kind of led me full circle to my role at The Independent. And now as wellness is this trillion dollar industry that's booming, I'm really interested in the intersection of how it affects us, you know, in the political realm and the economic realm and how we think about being well and unwell. So it's a really interesting time. And just to get straight into the wellness conversation, and hi, Emily, you've written a lot about femtech and tracking and wearables.

4:20Of all of these things, what truly works for you? And is there anything you're excited about? For example, this idea of neuromodulation and training the vagus nerve, that's always capturing my attention. I mean, what's exciting you right now? That is a very good question, Fiona. Thank you. I have an interesting relationship with tracking. I think we probably do over track now. And this is an area that is fascinating, but also can be quite a slippery slope in my view, where a whoop and I wear an aura ring. And both of those things have really impacted my relationship with my own health positively.

4:54Because I've been able to track, I've been able to make changes that have really affected my life for the better. So I would always say, you know, if there's something worth tracking, like your sleep for example which really you know turn things around for me and your hormones then fabulous do it definitely but if you're not really having an issue you don't really need to be doing it with that said I'm really interested in this idea of brain hacking too and neuromodulation and I think it's going to be a huge trend for 2026 the idea that we might be able to improve mental health across the board using these kind of alternatives to traditional mental health drugs is really interesting or as an adjunct to them.

5:32I love the idea that, you know, we can affect our state. Altered states is really interesting to me. So you can do breath work and meditation. That's always been quite effective in either calming you or, you know, raising your state. But now we can actually track what that's doing to the brain with these wearables, these sort of neuromodulation devices that you can wear on your head. They can help you with neurofeedback or, you know, people can go into clinic or wear these things at home that supposedly nudge the brain and create an effect on brain activity, which can then impact mood. It's a really interesting field of study and one that I'm looking at writing about much more this year.

6:09But also, it's one of those things where there's only a couple of devices that are FDA approved. There's only a couple of devices that are clinically approved and used by the NHS in the UK. So it's one of those areas where we need to make sure everyone has the facts. And for that reason I'm you know I'm excited to report on it but there's also a long way to go in terms of the research too. One of our most popular episodes on the show has been about at-home health test kits and I also recently talked about the surge in private scans. Do you regularly test and if so what and how or do you feel that some of this is aimed at the so-called worried well?

6:46That's a really interesting one. I do think that we've got kind of heightened health anxiety as a maybe quite an ironic result of the wellness industry becoming so huge. But yeah, I do test certain things. And I think that testing has become more democratized, which is really good because for a long time, I think a lot of women especially felt quite fobbed off and not able to access the testing they needed. Or if their testing was kind of within range, they were told, well, this is normal for your age. That's fine. Off you go. But actually, I think if you are able to test consistently and you're able to access testing that's affordable, you know, like Tesco do tests now.

7:22That's really cool. You can go and get a test in Superdrug quite quickly. I think it can be really helpful because then you've got evidence. You know, the same with tracking. You've got data that you can look at. And if you educate yourself on what's a normal range and what's normal for you and you make small lifestyle adjustments or you speak to your doctor and advocate for yourself with the data and say, look, you know, this is what's going on with me, they then might be able to help you with certain interventions. So I do think testing and tracking is really useful for that reason. I think maybe the home tests are being pushed in quite a big way, and I'm not sure what the upshot of that will be.

7:57You know, I saw recently that Holland and Barrett have kind of transformed their business model from somewhere that was going to sell you kombucha and supplements, but now they want to do this kind of 360 health testing approach where you go in, you get your bloods done, you then get recommended the supplements that you need based on your deficiencies. that's cool but it also takes your basket from about 30 pounds to about 130 pounds and not everyone can afford that so it's an interesting development and I'm interested to see what happens with home testing but obviously the average person also you know they might not know that they need to test at the same time every month or you know they might not have a regular cycle so that might interfere with things so you know it really depends on a case-by-case basis but in the main I think yeah probably quite cool that we now have the ability to test and that we've got that agency over our bodies.

8:43I think that's cool. And do you do any of them like the MediChex or the glycogen age or anything like that or do you steer away? I'm very fortunate in that I've had every test under the sun because of my health. You know every week someone says you know let me send out this test to you do you want to test this do you want to test that and there are like I think for women a sex hormone panel is really useful to see where you're at and I do that regularly to get a sense of where my hormones are and what's going on with me but I've done the kind of the Neko scan and I'm going to go and do the Pronovo scan and things like that so I do think that in some cases this stuff can be really life-saving but I also I'm conscious that the onus is being put more and more on the individual and we're moving more towards a healthcare system where we're expected to be able to pay a lot of money to get the basic facts that we need in order to support our own health and I do think there's got to be a balance there in terms of accessibility and, you know, who deserves to be well.

9:39I think it's quite an interesting thought, the idea that we should have to pay for our own wellness. Well, if you can't afford that, where does that leave you? In my view, everyone deserves to feel well and have information. So, I mean, I like the democratization of testing for sure. I like that you can get an affordable test now. But what you do with that is also important. Yeah, just the hormone testing, do you do serum testing or do you do the Dutch test? And I say that because, Sophie, you had an interesting experience with the Dutch, didn't you? oh I mean I'm interested to hear more about that.

10:06So yeah I had a very interesting experience with the Dutch test and I did everything properly everything was all correct but it came back essentially saying I had no oestrogen and I knew I had oestrogen because I don't have any symptoms of oestrogen deficiency and a month later so at the exact same point in my cycle I run blood tests which showed I had perfect oestrogen levels so it was really interesting and to date I've still not had an explanation as to why but because I have that medical knowledge I was able to say this isn't right whereas what was being recommended to me was some quite hardcore supplements which would have had potentially quite detrimental effects given I actually didn't have estrogen deficiency.

10:49Yeah this is why estrogen testing is so interesting isn't it I mean for you as a doctor you obviously knew that probably wasn't correct but I think for some people this is where worry for me lies as well because if we do a test with a brand thinking oh I'm tired all the time I wonder what the problem is you know you might then be sold a huge package of supplements that probably aren't right for you but I think that's why it's also important to test and test again and to keep testing because for me yeah I mean I've done every test under the sun and normally I've come to the same conclusions about my hormone levels and what's going on with me and done what I need to do to supplement and make sure that I'm supported I certainly didn't take very good care of myself in my 20s so I'm making up for that now in my 30s.

11:26Same. I also think another really important point to make is that I don't think any testing should be taken in isolation. It has to go hand in hand with a conversation about symptoms. Yeah absolutely and you know we often mistake one symptom for another thing don't we? I think the health anxiety stokes us and we think you know let's ask chat GBT what's going on with this and we're like oh no I'm two minutes from death but actually that's not the case and you know it's probably better to speak to an actual human clinician to find out what actually might be wrong with you in terms of those symptoms.

11:57What about supplements then? What's in the cabinet for you, Emily? What's in your usual stack? And, you know, feel free to list off brands and recommendations because the choice has gone nuts, as you know, more than anybody, I guess. So it's good to hear from somebody who's probably road tested quite a few and can feed back. Having said that, as I know, Sophie, you will say, and Emily, I'm sure you'll say the same, it's about personalisation. So what may be right for you may not be right for me or Sophie but anyway what do you take and why yeah I'm glad that you prefaced the question with that because the amount of people that's like saying what exact things do you take and I'm saying to them well your body's not the same as mine so it's a really good point well made but yeah for me obviously the basics are really important so I always take vitamin D I think that's really important especially in the winter in the UK when we've got limited sunlight exposure I also take certain things that are kind of quite powerful anti-inflammatory because for me and my particular hormone issues and my lifestyle, I find that anti-inflammatories are really useful for me.

12:59I take a lot of nootropics. I like this kind of this barrage of very kind of high tech, cool NAD precursors, but then also sort of herbalist approaches to well being that are kind of more medicine woman. So I like the kind of intersection of ancestral knowledge and Eastern medicine and then like high tech Western biohacking. And I find that every time I sort of tweak my stack there'll be a there'll be a new innovation in there but they'll also be the old favorites so I like things like boswellia and I like things like trying to think of what I take like chamomile and yeah just like you know quite classic herbs that I know are going to soothe me I'm really into functional mushrooms as I'm sure every single woman like me my age is at the moment but I find those really effective as well certainly for kind of mood elevation and then calm but yeah there are brands that I really recommend as well I like wild nutrition for kind of food grown supplements i really like a brand called inessa for just high quality reliable dosing and decent provenance there are a couple of others that i'll always go back to that i think like nushido time is a really good one that i think sophie you actually recommended as well when we were talking about nad my mind's gone a bit blank but yeah there are lots and lots in my cupboard and i've tested a lot so um yeah there are ones that i certainly come back to time and time again.

14:16Yeah, I love new Cheeto Time Plus. It's one of my absolute hero supplements. I'm always bringing our podcast conversations back to the three core pillars of sleep, diet and exercise. How's your sleep? And you talked about sleep tracking. And can you recommend anything sleep or bedtime related, whether that's something truly wellness related or bath oils, candles, PJs, apps or anything like high tech mattresses like I Love My Eight Sleep. we saw an article you wrote on your loomy lamp and I'm also super keen to hear more about that yeah I am a bit of a freak for sleep and it's my one thing that I'm probably a little bit obsessive over but that's because I had such disrupted sleep and was hanging on for dear life throughout my teens and 20s because I was so sleep deprived and it affected every aspect of my health so I'm really militant about it now and I am really into a sleep aid like you mentioned your sleep eight I've got one and I love it I'm obsessed with it but also because my partner and I you know we run at different temperatures so it spares us arguments which is quite nice I also am really into just these kind of basic biohacks so sleep in a cool dark room make sure that you don't have kind of light pollution or noise pollution but then I do some things that are quite extra like I wear this man to sleep headband which is an eye mask but it's also got built-in speakers in the ears and I will listen to my little breathwork wind down and I'll do my breathwork before bed so that will get me into a state where I feel really relaxed and then that will switch off automatically and I'll be able to just kind of rest and I might do that I might do yoga nidra I really like yoga nidra before I do that though I will have had a nighttime tea I will have had kind of red light from the lumi lamp and a simulated sunset I'll have taken my nighttime stack of supplements, make sure I've drunk enough water.

16:08I have quite a rigorous routine with my toothbrush and my tongue scraper and my skincare and all that kind of stuff. So bedtime actually starts earlier and earlier for me the older I get just to make sure that I'm winding down effectively. But that does then mean that I sleep for a solid eight or nine hours. I don't wake up and I wake up feeling refreshed and ready to take on the day. And that is worlds apart from how I felt maybe, you know, even six years ago. So it really does work for me. And And I do think that we take sleep for granted and everyone can sleep. Sleep is free. Sleep is natural.

16:39It's something that we all have the ability to do. But we have a lot of distraction. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot that prevents us from winding down well. And we don't often get the quality sleep or the amount of sleep that we need. So for me, that's a complete wellness non-negotiable. Do you take anything like magnesium or CBD or L-theanine or any of those kind of sleep supplements? Yeah, I do. So I take magnesium before bed. I always take either two magnesium from Inessa or I will take maybe World Nutrition or I might take another brand if I'm testing something. But yeah, those are my kind of non-negotiable bedtime supplements.

17:18I'll also take Mama Shroom's Night, which I think is a really nice little nighttime functional mushroom supplement. My nighttime tea, there are things like Skullcap and Valerian. So those kind of witchy herbs, again, that are really effective. And then, yeah, it depends. If I'm traveling, I might also take different supplements to just try and kind of stack and make sure that I'm getting the most out of my sleep and I'm avoiding jet lag. But at home, generally, I tend not to overdo it with supplements. There was a time in my life I was taking like 30 supplements and I was just really overthinking it.

17:51And I try to eat my nutrition as much as I can rather than taking it in supplement form. And obviously some things like vitamin D you need, but everything else I do try to get from a balanced diet. So try to just keep it pretty simple with the supplements. Let's talk about diet. And specifically, we wanted to talk to you about three things, actually, because diet is obviously a huge area of discussion and we could just deep dive just on that. But can we talk about your relationship with protein, also with fiber, also with alcohol, those three things? And just to reference another one of your articles, are you still in love with kefir?

18:24More generally, I guess, like how happy are you with how you eat? And am I right in saying that you don't drink? So that's an interesting question, actually, because I wrote a piece a while back saying I'm not sober, but I don't drink. I stopped drinking, but I didn't go sober, if that makes sense. So I noticed that alcohol was one of the biggest variables in how well I felt. And if I reduced it or cut it out altogether, I felt remarkably better. And obviously, it was just, you know, growing up in the era that I grew up in, everyone drank, everyone went out. And I never had a problematic relationship with alcohol.

19:03And I had a really good time. And I like to think I was quite a fun drunk. but I also think it was one of those things that upped my anxiety it affected my sleep it was interfering with how good I felt day to day and I think it was you know ultimately seeing it through the lens of growing up with it as a kind of adjunct to fun rather than what it actually is which is a stimulant that is really bad for the body and is essentially poisonous for us you know reframing that attitude really influenced how often I wanted to drink. So I had a glass of champagne at Christmas. It was lovely. But I did then think, well, I don't want to feel awful, so I'm not going to have any more.

19:45And I think there's also a puritanical thread in wellness that means that if we want to optimize, we can't do anything fun. And I disagree with that as well. I think if you want to have a couple of drinks and do it, you know, community and fun and joy it's just as important for well-being as being a purist and doing the best that you can for self-optimization. So never tell anyone whether to drink or not, but for me, it's better if I don't just because I feel better. But yeah, things like that have kind of changed how I view my health. And certainly when I was in that era where I was drinking a lot, I also wasn't eating enough protein or enough fiber.

20:21And it's funny because it's like I almost took time out from being healthy because I was raised in a household where nutrition was really important. My parents grow a lot of their own food. They're really big on organic. And my mum was really good at making sure that there was lots of protein and lots of fiber and lots of legumes and, you know, things like that in our diets. And then, you know, you leave home, you start drinking loads of booze and you just live on Caesar salads and rosé. And it's probably not as good for you as it could be. So yeah, now I'm quite lucky because I go out with a chef.

20:52So the motto in our house is live, Laugh Legume. There's a lot of nice kind of fiber-rich food that we eat as part of our daily diet. And with protein as well, I do tend to think about whether or not my meal has it, whereas I never used to think, am I having a protein-rich breakfast? Whereas now I try to start the day with that. And I'll have like a stacked coffee and I'll add collagen and glycine. And at lunchtime, I'll think about whether or not this is going to give me energy or whether it's going to make me crash. And I still try to eat as much for joy as I possibly can. But if I can chuck something in that's going to make me feel good, then that joy is obviously, you know, starting in the gut too.

21:30So it's about mood, but it's about kind of a precursor to mood too. So yeah, I do try to be kind of nerdy with what I eat these days, which is, I think, beneficial. But I'm not afraid of things like protein powder either. I think we've, you know, we've kind of demonized processed food, not to process food to such an extent that now people are afraid of things like a quick protein bar that you might eat, you know, when you're on the go. I had one yesterday and I didn't feel guilty about it because I needed to eat something so that kind of thing I think is fine. I kind of think it comes back to everything in moderation and I mean my concern with a lot of protein powders has always been around insulin spikes which is a conversation I've had a lot with my nutritionist but that doesn't mean you should never have them because actually having that dose of protein powder will be better than having nothing but leaning into it all the time may not be the best and it comes back to what you said getting as much as you can from diet and supporting what you need on top of it yeah i totally agree and i don't have a protein shake every day because it's just not it's not my vibe i will always try and eat my protein from you know from a whole food source but sometimes if i fancy one you know i'll chuck some peanut butter and some chocolate protein powder and some other bits and pieces from the cupboard in and it's quite nice to have one of those sort of healthy drinks totally invite you know the peanut butter throwing in some healthy fats again will mitigate some of an insulin spike that could come if you just had had the rest it's me it's a great way of doing it i'm glad that i've got your blessing now that's good finally movement or exercise now i know you do it i'm not going to ask you if you do what do you do what's your regime and how do you fit it all in and any recommendations on a class an instructor, a gym, anything that's really made a difference for you and in particular also any online classes that you can recommend?

23:19Oh sure there's lots actually that I really like. Yeah I was certainly someone who didn't eat enough protein, drank too much alcohol and hit the gym too hard and I think that's a mistake that a lot of us maybe made because of the information about health that we were given in the early 2000s. Now I exercise in a way that's much better for me and that doesn't cause these kind of huge stress responses on the body. So I do strength train because I think that's really important, but I do it in quite a relaxed way. You know, I will lift weights, but I don't do it in a way that is a real overload for my senses.

23:53I'll do it to an extent that I know is effective for muscle growth and for bone density. And that's enough for me. So I'll do that a couple of times a week. I like Pilates and I like yoga. I really like movement that focuses not just on strength but also on flexibility and mobility so all that kind of like stretching and yoga stuff some people I know think that it's you know it's not necessary because it doesn't build muscle but actually it's really good if you sit in it at a desk all day like I do a lot of the time because if I'm sat there tapping away on my laptop and I get up and I do some stretching it means I'm not going to have tight hips at the end of the week because I've been sat in the same position like a prawn at my desk all week.

24:35So that kind of thing I really love. And there are, yeah, there are instructors and apps and stuff that I will go back to time and time again. Laura Dodds, the yoga class is really good. I really like Louisa Drake and her method. I think she's brilliant. I use the Allo Moves app. That's recently become free for everyone, which I think is really cool. You don't have to pay for it. So it's a nice accessible version of the app that you can use. And it's got like Pilates, stretching. It's got meditation, lots of different bits and bobs on there. But I also think if you just want like a quick routine that you can do at home, because I think people are quite time poor now, don't want to big it up too much.

25:13But the Independent is a good place to go. Our fitness writer, Harry, specializes in creating really accessible workout content. So that's a good place to find things if you're interested in, you know, entry level, intermediate or advanced strength training, stretching, cardio, whatever. But yeah, for me, I like a run as well, but I like a run outside. I really like being outdoors and I walk every day. And some days I walk with a weighted vest, some days I just walk my dog as normal. But I also like to run outside and run trails because I like the scenery and I like the fresh air. And I find that does a lot more for me than running in a gym.

25:45I've never really liked gyms. I kind of have always been in them as one of those things where, you know, you go there and you get it done. And it's the best place to get it done. But it's not my favorite place to be. I like to work out at home. I love a class. And I also really like to be outside. What about mental health? we saw a really interesting piece that you did on that awful gossip website, which we're not going to name one here. But how do you stay on top of all of that? I mean, obviously, you are in the public eye, like Sophia, so you're going to get people chit-chatting on your Insta, if nothing else.

26:16Do you have any practices, any supplements, I don't know, to keep things calm? Broadly speaking, how do you manage your mental health? Mental health is, yeah, it's a weird one for me, because when I was younger, I struggled so badly with anxiety. I couldn't even read a slightly firmly worded email without having a meltdown. And I realized that a lot of that was not just to do with me being anxiety prone, but it was to do with how well I was taking care of myself. So now I've built resilience and I've built a really positive, stable mood by taking care of myself by eating well and sleeping well and exercising.

26:54And I remember going to my doctor when I was about 21 and saying, I'm really anxious. I keep having panic attacks. I don't know what to do. And he told me to go for a walk. And I felt so upset to be kind of fobbed off like that. And I couldn't believe it. I thought I really need help. But actually, I hate to say it, now that I do walk daily and that I do exercise and I sleep well and I look after myself, that is you know the best foundation for mental health that I could possibly have but then I do other things like meditation and gratitude practice and breath work are really important to me now because they have completely helped me reframe how I think about things I would recommend gratitude breath work and meditation to absolutely everyone on the face of the earth because they can be real game changers and they can be quite tricky in the beginning, especially if you've never done anything like that before.

27:51But thanks to gratitude practice and my ability to contextualize the world around me, if I read a nasty comment online, I'm not really bothered by it because I know that that person is clearly frustrated, but it's probably not even about me. It's more about them and the day that they're having. I know that I'm doing my best to, you know, to share information that is ultimately going to help people improve their relationship with health and well-being. I am not a bad person for doing that. And therefore, if someone, you know, tries to give me a hard time, I'll always listen to them and listen to their point of view.