Why we don't have a vitamin C skincare product - with Tiina Meder from Meder Beauty

0:00This show is sponsored by Primadine, a clean, natural and science-based spermidine supplement that's been a long-time staple in my own longevity stack. Because studies suggest that through autophagy, spermidine increases healthspan and upregulates a range of health markers, from memory and cognitive function to heart health, hormone balance, fertility and even hair growth. Plus, you can be assured that all ingredients undergo rigorous third-party testing. Buy Primadine now at OxfordHealthSpam.com and use the discount code DrSophie, that's D-R-Sophie for 20 % off. This show is sponsored by Microbes, an award-winning liquid probiotic that's now a staple for me, because Microbes, with a Z on the end, is different.

0:47For one thing, they source directly from the soil on their Wiltshire farm, meaning more diversity, with at least 15 strains of good bacteria in every single shot. it's brewed so it can survive in the stomach and a remarkable 92 % of customers say it makes a difference plus they offer micro-friendly cleaning gardening and even microbes for dogs buy now at microbes.co.uk and use the discount code sophie20 for 20 % off hi i'm sophie and this is age well with dr sophie shotter a space devoted to all things health wellness and longevity because for me aging well is about looking and feeling like the best possible version of ourselves inside as well as out so together with my producer fee i'll be deep diving into the latest research sifting fact from fiction i'll also be talking to all kinds of trusted experts tapping into their knowledge along with bringing new conversations from a range of interesting women and men finding out how they age well so this is my show welcome along and as always thank you so much for listening.

2:00Tina you trained as a doctor and started your career focusing on female cardiology. You then pivoted to dermatology and worked for several years in R &D for skincare. You know that I love your products and I love your story so to keep listeners up to speed, when you decided to launch Media Beauty, despite having a huge amount of knowledge and a very clear idea of where you wanted to differentiate, you couldn't get the funding. But you were so convinced at what you were seeing in the lab that you sold your apartment, invested everything in research and development and went ahead and launched Media Beauty.

2:36Many people now say that your approach was somewhat ahead of its time, as your focus has always been on two very buzzy skincare ingredients, peptides and pre or probiotics. We know that the gut microbiome is fully socialized in mainstream culture, but what we talk about far less is the skin microbiome. What do we now know about the skin microbiome and what do you wish that more people knew about it? Oh, thank you so much for your kind words. And really, when I'm speaking about the microbiome just stopped me because I can speak about it for hours. And I regularly participate in microbiome congress and conferences.

3:17And every time I learn something new, for example, bacteria have the beneficial roles in the skin. The bacteria which we thought causes acne, QT bacteria magnus. Actually, it is an antioxidant producer. And the antioxidant which QT bacteria magnus produces, it's more powerful than vitamin E and vitamin C together. Or lactic bacteria, they are responsible for pH maintenance of the skin and also for water-holding capacity of the skin. So if you have less of water-holding bacteria on your skin is dry. And actually another fun fact, that's why yogurt masks are working. Not because of the milk or the biofermented yogurt itself.

4:13It's because of leaving bacteria on the skin. And also their skin whitening because they control the oxidative process of the skin. Also, another fun fact, which always surprises everyone, essential oils are not microbiome friendly. Because most of essential oils, they have this strong antibacterial and antiviral properties. And that's what we love about them, right? But at the same time, they are not friendly for our skin microbiome. So if your skin is healthy, it's always risky to experiment with essential oils because it can disturb the balance. Oh, I don't know. Last fun fact. I know it's difficult to stop.

4:59I'm a swimmer myself. But it is a big difference where you swim. And if you swim in the ocean or in the sea, 20 minutes, your skin microbiome will be changed for upcoming 24 hours. And most of the time, it will improve the healing capacities of the skin. I love all these fun facts. This is all new to me and I spend a lot of time talking with Sophie about skin. So thank you so much. Listen, you don't use retinols in your range. We really want to talk to you about this. And instead, as Sophie mentioned, you use peptides and prebiotic alternatives. Can you talk to us about these ingredients and why you don't use retinol?

5:39And also, why you said that your bestseller Myofix Concentrate basically launched your brand? Actually, why I don't use retinol, it's really related to the Myofix as well, because I launched the Myofix alternative for injectable botox treatment for pregnant women. That was my first idea, which was refused by the big brands, which I worked for in the time. So I didn't have funding or some big brand support because it's such a niche market. So it will not be commercially viable. So from the very beginning, I thought about pregnancy as a target for myofix, brain-coast, peptide-based treatment. And so I limited myself from using anything potentially harmful for pregnant women.

6:38And retinol was the number one of these ingredients. But luckily, we have many ingredients which can act as retinol. Retinol is very specific ingredients. It is bioidentical because the retinol circulates in our body in the healthy situation. But added retinol, artificially added retinol, can be too much for the body. But retinol interacts with all cells, including skin cells. And it interacts with cells with very specific mechanism, which is quite universal. And that's what we love about retinol, right? Because it's good for acne treatment. It's good for wrinkles treatment. We can use it for pigmentation treatment.

7:25We can use it for sonovastosis treatment, for many things. But retinol alternatives, they are ingredients which can interact with the same structures in skin cells. as retinol does, but more selectively. So we can have a specific ingredient for an acne treatment which acts as retinol, but it doesn't interact with other structures which are responsible for collagen synthesis. Retinol is so efficient, it is difficult to say that something is more effective than retinol because probably it is not. With a high concentration of retinol, you can't have such a spectacular effect. But you pay the price.

8:15Skin is sensitized, and so on. There are a lot of side effects. But with retinol alternative, you can't get the same efficiency without side effects. For example, for aged skin, we can use bakuchiol, which replaces retinol very efficiently. and actually it can be used alongside with retinol with a low dose of retinol because it helps to avoid side effects of retinol as well. For acne treatment, we can use avocutin, which is derived from avocado. Perfectly natural, but acts as a retinol, reducing the sebum production up to 30%. So it's just, you know, it's a new generation of cosmetic ingredients which are safer, but efficient.

9:04We were reading the notes of an interview did with the writer Nicola Bonner and she said it was an eye-opening chat about Tina's views on again retinoids but also vitamin C. She also said I definitely left our chat questioning a lot of what I have believed to be true about skincare. So what are your thoughts Tina on vitamin C and some of these acids that so many people are using on their skin, whether lactic or glycolic or salicylic. My vision of vitamin C, it's a little bit heartbreaking for everyone loving vitamin C. Because, you know, people love it. And it is a great ingredient. And it is very safe and bio-identical, skin-identical as well.

9:49And can be used by skin cells as an antioxidant and as a collagen booster as well. But the problem with vitamin C is its biological availability of ascorbic acid through the skin. It's very bioavailable when you take it as an oral supplement, when you eat something rich in vitamin C like oranges, or if you take supplement. But when you apply it on the skin, the vitamin C can be absorbed and can be used by the skin cells only if the level of vitamin C in your blood is lower than norm, only if you are deficient in vitamin C. If the saturation of the vitamin C in your blood is healthy, your skin will take vitamin C from your blood, not from the skin surface.

10:50And so for everyone who is not deficient in vitamin C. Vitamin C in the skincare, it is safe, but not very useful. I'm sorry for bringing the bad news. It's not about the risk. It's about the rationality. And these acids, it's different because acids also, they're amazing ingredients. They're very efficient. We use them for chemical peels. And when I practiced, I've been a peeler myself. I performed probably hundreds, if not thousands, pills in my professional career. I love it. Just using hydroxy acids in the daily skincare routine, for me, it is very tricky once again because so many people, they're suffering from skin sensitivity and have sensitized skin already or they are on the medication, which is photosensitizing for our skin.

11:49For example, oral contraceptive, antidepressant, even ibuprofen. It increases the photosensitivity of the skin, so you are already more vulnerable to the ultraviolet. And when we add even the small dosage of hydroxyacid in the daily skincare, it can be tricky, and people don't understand this risk. I love lactic acid. It's very physiological because the lactic acid makes a part of the natural water-holding protection of the skin, natural moisturizing factor of the skin, but only in the concentration up to 8%. When you go higher than 8 % of lactic acid, it's becoming irritant, and actually we use it.

12:36It's a classic standard test for skin sensitivity, the application of lactic acid on the underarm. So for me, hydroxyacid, it is a great professional tool which can be used as a part of professional treatment in the clinic or as the product based on the hydroxyacid can be used on active course, like for six weeks, eight weeks, maybe 10 weeks. But to put it in the daily care, I feel like it's not very responsible for public health. Heartbreaking, right? It is heartbreaking, especially the vitamin C stuff. I mean, but it's really useful to hear your perspective, somebody from your background about these very specific ingredients.

13:23And I guess if we can move the conversation on to peptides, because last year, Sophie did a really useful explainer episode on skin peptides. Do you see Media Beauty as creating its own proprietary peptides? Because it seems that this is the direction of travel for many skincare brands these days. First of all, the episode of peptides was amazing. I love it. I recommend to listen to this episode for all beauticians working with Meddard products because it was so well explained. And I love peptides. It's really a great category of ingredients. It's a huge family of ingredients. We have now more than hundreds of them.

14:05And actually, I've been thinking about using proprietary peptides. Obviously, I cannot synthesize or create the peptides by myself. I am not a biochemist. I am just a dermatologist specializing in the skincare development. But I've been speaking with absolutely amazing scientists who are specializing in creation of peptides, especially of biomimicking peptide, which it is my passion. the biomimicry and there are a lot of peptides which animals or fish or even jellyfishes they are using for the nature of protection and have been almost ready to get the proprietary right for peptides derived from butterfly powder from their wings it's so romantic and it is an amazing peptide which is really good for the skin sensitivity and for adverse treatment.

15:06But it is so expensive and I'm not sure that as a brand, as an independent brand, we need it because we can use it without calling it Medar peptide. And probably I'm, actually when I worked in big brands, marketing departments in both of companies told me that I'm too rational and I simplify the things too much. I'm not romantic enough. For me, I think we can use these peptides without calling it midderpeptide. Calling it midderpeptide is just pretending that we created it. We cannot create it. They are great scientists, independent scientists, and And I really think that for science, it's very important to be independent, not over-commercialized.

16:02That's such a good point. Yeah, so we didn't do it, but we used this step tight. Anyway, we are planning to launch the new product with it. I'm looking forward to hearing more about that. I love hearing about all of your new launches, Tina. The new launch in April, I cannot speak about it too much. Believe me, it will be great. well I look forward to hearing more when you can Tina you know I love Meda Beauty's Red Apex Concentrate which is an amazing anti-redness product for rosacea prone and sensitive skin but can we talk about rosacea and sensitivity causes because there are several theories some say it could be to do with a reaction to the tiny demodex mites that live on our skin some people link it to a low immune system and some research has shown a possible link with Helicobacter pylori bacteria, which can live in our stomachs.

16:57And that can be the same one that can cause all sorts of gastrointestinal infections and problems. We also know that perimenopause can trigger acne rosacea. What are your thoughts and theories on rosacea and sensitive skin? Actually, I find that the most viable theory of rosacea, it is the theory of genetic inheritance of some disturbance. I will say mutation, but mutation, it's kind of scary word. It's not real mutation. It's something like your individuality, which you inherited from your ancestry, affecting your skin ability for antioxidant protection. Because it explains everything. Because rosacea is so multifaceted.

17:46It can happen in people in the very young age. It can happen in the perimenopausal or menopausal period of their life. It can be triggered by the environment. But also we know that genetics play a crucial role here. First of all, the epidemiology of rosacea. Rosacea we see much more often in the very specific phototype, like fair skin, blue eyes, especially red hair, classic Celtic phototype. It can happen in other types of the skin, but apparently in Celtic phototype, it's really kind of Celtic curse, like it was called in the past. And actually, it depends on the level of this mutation. So when your skin cells, keratinocytes, cells of the superficial wire of the skin.

18:44They are not able to provide all cells level with the necessary level of antioxidant protection. Ultraviolet and all other oxidative stress damages the skin more, and especially damaging for the small capillaries, small vessels. And also what characterizes this type of the skin, it is this vulnerability of the capillary and how capillary are prone for the very specific inflammation. Related to the overexpression of specific receptors of the skin cells, the receptors also involved in the pain reaction and in the H-reaction. So it explains this classic rosacea triad. The skin is not only red, but also inflamed and uncomfortable, itchy, painful, hot.

19:46If we can interact with these overexpressed receptors, if we can regulate this expression, we can control rosacea much better. And probably that's what azelaic acid does, because we don't have clear understanding why azelaic acid is efficient in rosacea patients. It doesn't act like an acid. It doesn't act as an antibacterial substances. But somehow, it really improves the skin condition, despite it's really counterintuitive. because rosacea skin is very sensitive. And rosacea skin doesn't like any other acid except for azaleic acid. But very probably azaleic acid can regulate these receptors.

20:37But now we have new peptides and new ingredients. For example, we use in red apax. We are using one derived from mushrooms, which really bind these redness receptors in keratinocytes. And we see amazing results in kind of, I will not say instantly, but it takes kind of short time and really hard passion. But paradoxically, sensitivity is so different from rosacea. They're not very closely related because the sensitivity in rosacea is secondary. it's caused by rosacea itself, by the inflammation caused by rosacea. But the sensitivity, which is neurogenic and which is kind of just unexplained, because sensitivity is a phenomenon.

21:32It's not a medical condition. It's kind of phenomenon based on the sensation, the feeling, and very subjective. So we don't even have the proper terminology. for sensitive skin. We call it sensitive, irritated, over-sensitive, whatever. But what was found by Faculty of Dermatology in Lyon University, led by Professor Laurent Misery, I'm a big fan of Professor Misery, by the way. He is one of the greatest authorities in the sensitivity skin science in the last 25 years, they found that sensitivity of the skin is much more related to the nervous system in the skin than to skin cells themselves. And actually, the impulse from the same lactic acid applied on the skin in people with sensitive skin goes in another part of the brain and even on another side of the brain.

22:35which is fascinating, right? When your skin is non-sensitive, this pathway is different. It's based on the embryological closeness of the skin and the nervous system because for the first three weeks of the embryo development, skin and nervous system, it is the same organ and they never lose contact. So everything would affect the skin, affect the brain and vice versa. I mean, this could be the entire podcast episode, couldn't it? Just talking about this. That is so, so interesting. Thank you for that. I also wanted to say that it seems that there are so many women that I've met who love Mida Beauty and when they know about it, they're so, so loyal.

23:20It was one of the first brands that when I first met Sophie that she told me about. So I think it's one of those brands that when you know, you know. So very briefly, could you just let us know what are your, I know it's hard to pick three, your three big hero products. And also, we'd love to know what's your current skincare routine. That is a great question. I'm trying, you know, when I created the brand, I never thought it would be a global brand. Now we are serving salons and clinics in 32 countries over the world. But when we sold our apartment, I did it only because I was stubborn enough.

23:59and so after that when we became unexpectedly successful with this alternative to the for botox treatment for pregnant women we obviously we created the whole range for different category of people so me i'm just one of category right now i don't have acne my skin is not highly sensitive, so I'm 53 years old, and I have all hormone-related changes in my skin, and I have a tendency for oiliness for my skin, which I really preserved through all these years because slight hyperproduction of sebum, it's so beneficial for aging. So my skincare routine, it's not very laconic. I'm a skincare brand founder, so I'm not like one step of skincare.

24:51But my probably three favorite products. First, it is cleansing mask. Because when I'm asked which product you should pick if you can buy only one, I always say cleanser. Because a good cleanser can help a lot. And bad cleanser can kill results of skincare so easily. So we have only two cleansers. I love both, but probably my favorite, it is a cleanser for sensitive skin because it's so refreshing and so easy. And I travel a lot and they're full of prebiotics and anti-inflammatory plants extract. Second product would be the night cream, Siracanite. It doesn't help you sleep better. It helps you look better when you didn't sleep.

25:44For me, it's like the example of biohunting. I'm not a good sleeper myself for millions of reasons and also a traveler. And it really helps to look decent in the morning, even if you've had only two hours of sleep. And the third one, it's so difficult to choose. Probably Luminoderm, brightening cream. I worked so hard on the formulation for so many years because, you know, for pigmentation treatment, it's so difficult. Do not use retinol or do not use hydroquinone because they are gold standards of the pigmentation treatments. And only when new peptides and some other ingredients and whitening probiotics came on the market, finally I could make it real and I love it.

26:37I use it as a day cream and it really helps the skin looking healthier, not whitened, but really brightened. Why? Realistically brightened. So my skincare routine, it's relatively simple cleanser, antioxidant serum, luminoderm cream in the morning, and eye cream, neck cream additionally. And at the nighttime, it'd be the same thing, but at night I also use active serum with also these peptides, obviously, which helps to, in the perimenopause and menopausal time, helps to keep your skin very sensitive to the lower concentration of estrogens circulating in the body. So it's kind of hormonal replacement therapy for the skin without hormones.

27:28And biohacking night cream. That's it. What about your more general wellness routine? What are the practices and protocols that work for you, including any biohacking hacks or habits that you have? Another great personal question. Thank you so much. But it's so lovely to listen to you about your wellness approach. It's really enriching. So my wellness approach is quite simple. I'm working out every day since childhood. I was a professional swimmer in my young age. So it's just a habit. When people say how you do it, it's just an addiction. It's like take a breakfast. So it's nothing to be proud of.

28:14And so I am always working out before breakfast. If I have no time, at least 10 or 15 minutes, I do it. And I am swimming three times a week if I can. During holidays, I'm swimming every day. and it's pretty much more or less all of my wellness. But also as a biohacking, I started to use a few years ago, I started to use luminotherapy, lump. And oh my God, it's a life-changing choice because I am one of these sun-dependent people who are really dependent on the light level. And when it is dark, it makes me so sad. and really the energy level, it's always been so much lower during the winter time.

29:03But after I found this professional luminotherapy light, lumps, which you're just using for one hour during the morning, I just put it on my table or on the floor when I'm working out. And it really helps you to keep up your circadian rhythms. and your level of cortisol, it's really healthy. And actually, I ordered in Amazon, living in London, and helped me a lot. In the grey London morning, you feel like you are in Greece. That's amazing. And also, I'm a big fan of, you know, kind of very personalized supplementation. I don't think that everyone should go to an empty home and borrowed shelf. But I think if now we can do really precise genetic testing, which can help a lot to find your own weaknesses.

30:07And also I did it, and it's an amazing British company called Mugto. They do genetic and epigenetic in the same time. And I found, apparently, in female line of my family, we have this mutation of the amino acid arginine absorption. We don't really absorb it so efficiently as we should. So all women in my family, they've been prone to the high arterial pressure, which was very difficult to treat. And it's related to this arginine deficiency. Four pounds a month, and it controls arterial pressure amazingly. Just 500 of arginine amino acid. Who knows, right? So let me take a look. Yeah, we did some genetic testing last year, actually, Sophie and I, didn't we?

31:02And we were really intrigued to see what we needed and maybe what we didn't need. You've kind of preempted my next question. But quick fire, we would love to know what actually is in your supplement stack, bearing in mind you have just said that it's personalized according to your genetic testing but what supplements do you take on a regular basis? Arginine 500 milligram vitamin D during the winter time especially when you live in darkness and also I take coenzyme Q10 also because it helps to control arterial pressure and also it is an amazing antioxidant and it really helps to control aging process in the skin and the body as a belief in research because research are really you know look really truthful so that's it and what about makeup are there any products and brands that you love yes i love foundation by terry created by terry de Ginzburg.

32:06She's absolutely amazing. They are one of the best makeup formulation I ever found. And it's really invisible. And also, it's microbiome friendly. And it's really going with all kinds of medir formulations so easily. Also, I love Ruby Hammer eyebrow gel and mascara. I love Biteri mascara as well, but Ruby Hammer, it's so delicate and it's so non-irritating that I have such a sensitive eyes and also lip serum is good and lip pencil by NARS. I'm not sure whether this can be a quick fire, quick answer, but let's see how we go. How do you feel about sunscreen? I think it is absolutely necessary. I just don't share the ideas and everyone on the planet Earth should use it 365 days a year.

33:02Now I am in Estonia. Believe me, it is dark. It is polar night. There's no ultraviolet in the atmosphere. So it's no point to use it when the ultraviolet index is zero. And also, I think then sunscreen should be much more personalized for everyone. First of all, I think that everyone needs at least three sunscreens. One for working days when you just, you know, spend probably max 20 minutes outdoors. Another one for weekends when you spend much more time outdoors and you're more exposed to the ultraviolet. And third one for the vacation when you really need 50 plus and probably water resistant 50 plus.

33:47So I love it, but I think it should be more personalized and not just this one fits all approach. What's your signature scent? And you are allowed to have more than one. Actually, I have one. You know, makeup and perfumes are quite simple. I love for many years, I love Crete, Silver Mountain. When I was young, I was about my 30s, and one of my clients actually presented me this perfume for my birthday. And I stay loyal to this because it just smells like good. day. Like everything will be fine today. Oh, I'm going to check that one out now. Thank you. Creed do some beautiful perfumes. It's really fresh and it's really, you know, kind of classic.