362 - Guest Co-Host: Maya Leibman. Guest: Ed Pizzarello, Loyalty Program Expert

0:27Maya Leibman: Thank you. SoCal, so easy. FlyOntario.com. The Executive MBA in Aviation at the University of Colorado, Denver. Business.ucDenver.edu. And by Cerium, the world's most trusted source of aviation analytics. Cerium.com. We also welcome your business's support.

0:54Ed Pizzarello: Contact us at airlinesconfidential.com. Welcome to Airlines Confidential. I'm Scott McCartney, wishing everyone a solemn and reflective Veterans Day. We thank all who have served for their service to the country and defense of liberty around the world. We have something a bit different for you today, something I think, I hope, listeners will find fun and insightful. Co-host Maya Liebman and I will be talking with Ed Pizzarella, a travel expert of a different sort. Ed is both a road warrior and an airline analyst of a different kind, a very smart customer kind. He's a travel podcaster and organizer of the Freddie Awards.

1:37Ed Pizzarello: He's an expert on loyalty programs. We have lots to talk about. So welcome back, Maya. I know you're looking forward to talking to Pizza and talking about the news of the week and more. Yeah, I am super excited that we've got Ed Pizza on. And he and I go way back and he's just like one of the most knowledgeable guys in the loyalty space, you know, whether it's airlines or hotels or credit cards. Like if you ever have a question, like what credit card should you get? Like he's the guy to talk to. He knows these programs inside now. He probably knows them better than pretty much everyone who's running those programs at those respective airlines and hotels.

2:15Ed Pizzarello: But beyond that, he's just a super great guy. He's kind and generous and funny. And so I'm looking forward to having him. But before we get to that, we have some interesting news to get to first. We're going to talk about check bag fees because they're going up in some cases. We're going to finish out sort of this has been sort of airline results, quarterly results season. And so we've got one more, I think the last one, Allegiant Airline to report on. And one of our favorite issues to talk about, the lawsuits against airlines for calling a seat a window seat when there's no window. No. But there's another - The questions of our time.

2:52Ed Pizzarello: I know. We need to ask AI about that. Yeah. It's one of those great philosophical questions. Is it a window seat if there is no window? But we have some interesting other news, and that is, get this, Scott, the FAA is going to phase out floppy disks by 2028. I think maybe first we need to explain to our listeners what a floppy disk is. They're not little Frisbees or wilted tortillas or slices of bologna, although they very much look like all of those. Do you want to take a stab at explaining what a floppy is? Uh, yeah, a floppy is, you know, it is kind of hard to explain. Um, it is this plastic, uh, you know, flexible thing, like a floppy record.

3:49Ed Pizzarello: Um, you know, if you're a music fan of, uh, LPs, um, it was sort of, you know, like that only floppy. And it's how computers store data, transfer data and all that on the floppy disk. I think there's a magnetic aspect to it. I don't know. The fact that the FAA still uses floppy disks, heck, there are probably some airline systems out there that still use floppy disks. And it's probably the only industry in the world that still uses it. I think I'm more amazed that it's going to take until 2028 to get rid of them. And if history is any judge, FAA is not real good at meeting deadlines. I don't know.

4:33Ed Pizzarello: I am reminded a bit when I did a book years ago on the two guys who invented the first computer, ENIAC. And we wanted to put a vacuum tube on the cover because it was a vacuum tube based machine. We couldn't find vacuum tubes and actually had to import a vacuum tube from Russia for the cover of the book. Where do you get your floppy disks these days? But anyway, I hope they can accomplish this. seems like there are better ways to store data these days. So the FAA also announced that it was updating the list of airlines that it keeps to remove Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff. Just kidding. And Maya, this can only mean that it's time for me to upgrade my Commodore 64 computer and put away my Sony Walkman and unplug the trusty fax machine.

5:33Ed Pizzarello: At least sometime in the next two years, we certainly don't want to rush this. Yeah, don't rush it. Although, don't get rid of your Walkman, Scott. Apparently, if you have a vintage one or an early, one of the first models, they're selling for over a thousand bucks on eBay. Is that right? Yeah, they're millennials. The Gen Zs are super into Walkmans now. And you can store eight or nine songs on them too. Yeah, maybe the FAA can sell floppies on eBay. Yeah, yeah. There you go. No, honestly, it does sound crazy in the age of AI. You know, we're talking about AI, you know, killing us all and at the same time talking about phasing out floppies.

6:17Ed Pizzarello: And, you know, as you said, it's not just the FAA. Like, there's some airplanes. Like, I think the 7-4, you know, somewhere there's a mechanic whose job it is to hand deliver the navigation database on like a one meg floppy. Wow. But here's the thing, though. I actually have a lot of empathy for changing legacy systems. You know, it is terrifying. I mean, there's no documentation. Everything lives in the head of someone who's named Gary or Yvonne, and they retired in like 2007. And, you know, the last thing any of us want is a major ATC outage. So FAA, take your time, do it right. Let's get rid of those floppies, though.

6:57Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, yeah. It just would seem like you could, I don't know. I guess it's the whole system, right? You can't just take out the drive and put in a solid state one or something. I don't know. Crazy. All right. Speaking of changing with the times, JetBlue raised its check baggage fees by$6 to$11, depending on your flight and when you pay the fee. JetBlue's check baggage fee will actually, by my eye, be the highest in the U.S. industry, at least until other airlines raise their own prices. JetBlue will charge$50 to$55 for prepaid check baggage fees and$60 to$70 for the first bag if you don't pay until you get to the airport,$70 for a check bag.

7:48Ed Pizzarello: To be fair, Frontier and Allegiant can get as high as$70 for the first check bag. They can also be as low as$20 in the case of Allegiant and$30 for Frontier. American United are at$45 paid in advance online to$50 at the airport for the first bag and$5 more on American if you have a basic economy ticket too. Delta and Southwest and Alaska are at a flat rate of$45 for the first check bag. Here's the thing. I remember years and years ago when a Delta PR person said they had to match a price increase to stay competitive. And from a consumer point of view, of course, not matching a fair increase would make you more competitive.

8:35Ed Pizzarello: But companies routinely talk about the need to match low prices to stay competitive. They don't talk about the need to match high prices. But that is the world kind of we live in now, the world of high sustained fuel prices that are burning up airline profits. So I think you could see lots of airlines raising their baggage fees in step with JetBlue. According to DOT statistics, it's interesting. JetBlue carried 13.7 million checked bags in 2025. Not that all of them paid the fee, right? Elite status and credit card perks can get you a free check bag. But let's say the fees average out to a$10 increase and half the customers pay that.

9:18Ed Pizzarello: And so you're talking about an additional$70 million or so for the year. 70 million buys a tank or two of jet fuel. American Delta and Southwest all had more than 100 million check bags reported last year. Same math. Half the customers pay, let's say, just a$5 increase. That's$250 million a year for each airline. That's real money. Yeah, for sure. It is real money. At the same time, bag fees is like one of the airline fees that I can actually get behind for a few reasons. The first is like you can see the cost to the airline. I mean, you just look out the window while you're on the plane and you can see the people who are moving the bags.

10:07Ed Pizzarello: You can see all the conveyors and the pushers and the bag systems. and you can see the agents who are picking up these heavy bags and probably getting like back strains and things like that. You know, there's a real cost to carrying these bags. Unlike when I was in the Advantage program, they, like we had this fee, like, I don't know, I'm not sure I'm remembering this correctly, but like you had to mail something in, in order to redeem your miles. Do you remember this or am I making this up? Yeah, no, I think it was like you got some kind of annual bonus or I don't know. I can't remember, but there was something that you had to do.

10:46Ed Pizzarello: And then the airline would say, okay, well, and you had to do it like 21 days before the departure of your flight to request a free flight to redeem your miles. And the airline, but if you did it within 21 days, the airline would say, okay, you can do it, but you have to pay this expedite fee. But then we went to an electronic way where you could do this all online, but we were still charging an expedite fee like within 21 days, but it's like it didn't. It was like all done automatically at that point. So like a fee like that, I can't get behind. But a fee where you can actually see the cost associated with it, I don't have a problem with.

11:21Ed Pizzarello: The other things is like think about what it would take to send your bag on FedEx and how much that would cost. The third reason I think that I'm okay with bag fees are, you know, you can just get a credit a card and then you won't have to pay the bag fees. Almost all of the loyalty cards, the co-branded cards will allow you a free checked first bag. And then the fourth reason is, you know, the secret of happiness is packing lighter. And we were a no check bags family. And, um, you know, it was the threat of corporal punishment for my parents that we would even consider, uh, taking, uh, checking a bag.

11:59Ed Pizzarello: And so I think we could all just pack lighter, not check bags, and avoid the cost entirely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Ben Baldanza used to always say, if you don't charge for check bags, then everybody who carries on, they're paying for the check bag service they're not using. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. So that's my feeling. All right. Going to the windowless seat lawsuit. News was that a federal judge in Brooklyn ruled that Delta would have to go to trial on the issue. A federal judge in San Francisco had earlier ruled much the same way in a case against United over the same thing. So both judges ruled against airline motions to have the cases dismissed.

12:46Ed Pizzarello: And so now they're going to Discovery and maybe to trial next year. So the issue is, you know, these airplanes that lack a window in run row because of the structure of the fuselage. I think it's like there's like some air conditioning, air vent type things that are in the fuselage and that prevent a certain area from having a window. So the customer pays extra for a window seat and there's no window. And you can see why the customer might be just a little confused or incredibly pissed off. Airlines argue that the contract of carriage says that they don't promise you're going to get the seat that you paid for because seat assignments get moved around, aircraft get swapped, things like that.

13:24Ed Pizzarello: United has argued that window, and I'm putting that in air quotes, describes the location of the seat rather than guaranteeing an actual window. Just like maybe chicken describes the wording on the menu, not the actual protein in your chicken salad. Right. All right. What do you think, Scott? Window, what do you think on this issue? I think once you start charging for a window seat, you better provide a window. You know, I think that's pretty simple. It does get a little complicated, but it would seem to me airline systems can certainly handle that. They know if row 14 has a window or not on that particular aircraft.

14:11Ed Pizzarello: And so don't charge for it as a window seat. You know, you can also you can charge for it as a preferred seat. Some of some of this is just simply semantics. Right. But I do think accuracy matters. Well, I went on the app, on Americans app, and there is very clearly disclosed when you select like seat 23A on the Dreamliner that there is no window view. And so, you know, some people might be still willing to pay for that seat because, you know, they want to sleep against the wall, you know, put their head against the wall or they just don't want to be in the middle. And so the airline has disclosed it.

14:54Ed Pizzarello: I guess it's, you know, there's a little bit of responsibility on the consumer to sort of read and see what they're buying. Well, it's interesting because I don't know of a suit like this against American, right? I think Americans got more disclosure than United and Delta are doing. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah, yeah. All right. Speaking of disclosure, in more transparent news than your blocked window view, Allegiant Travel Company reported its results for the third quarter last week. The discount airline company reported a relatively small loss and significantly smaller than Wall Street analysts had been expecting.

15:33Ed Pizzarello: Allegiant posted a loss of about$15 million. Last year in the same quarter, Allegiant had losses of almost$44 million. One big difference was last year in the third quarter, Allegiant didn't have Sun Country, which it acquired in May. So a lot of the comparisons to last year were colored by including Sun Country. For example, revenue was up 71%. It's not that it was apples to apples up 71%. It's largely because it's a bigger company now adding in Sun Country's revenue. Capacity was up 27%, same issue. But when you look at it apples to apples, capacity for Allegiant and Sun Country combined was actually down 6 % available seat miles.

16:17Ed Pizzarello: Some of that is discipline in the high fuel environment. Some of that is schedule reductions in Sun Country's home of Minneapolis. Sun Country, among other issues, lost a lot of pilots after the merger was announced. So they have cut back in Minneapolis, but made a point of saying they're committed to Minneapolis. Overall, the results seem strong and the market reacted favorably with the Legion shares jumping higher after the results were announced. Legion opened the week at$74 a share, closed last Friday at$92 a share, almost a 24 % jump. This week so far has been a good week for airlines. Oil prices are down.

16:57Ed Pizzarello: Airline stocks are up. Last week, not bad at all. JetBlue had a similar jump up 23 % last week as fears of bankruptcy concerns calmed. Frontier was up 12%. By the way, oil prices were down 12 % last week and more so far this week, at least as of Monday. So we closed the earnings season. More airlines lost money than made money. But overall, I just think it's really kind of remarkable how resilient they have been in the face of oil prices doubling. But what do you think, Maya? Yeah, it's amazing. I don't think we've ever seen a period where oil prices would have spiked this much and we'd still be talking about favorable results at some of the airlines and generally stocks doing pretty well.

17:51Ed Pizzarello: It's pretty incredible. Yeah. All right. Before we bring in Ed Pizzarello, let's thank our sponsors for making this podcast possible. Thanks to RTX. At RTX, a century of aerospace and defense innovation shapes a unique perspective. It takes more than technology alone to rapidly advance the future of flight and strengthen global security. It takes the vision to see what's next, adapting expertise and scaling manufacturing capability to deliver where and when it matters most. Perspective is everything RTX. Visit RTX.com to learn more. And thanks to Infinity Flight Academy for making the podcast possible.

18:32Ed Pizzarello: Infinity Flight Academy is helping build the next generation of professional pilots. Airline hiring may move in cycles, but developing skilled professional pilots takes years. Infinity provides structured airline-focused training designed to develop pilots with skills, discipline, and professionalism needed for today's flight deck. From individual career pilots to large-scale cadet and university programs, Infinity is helping build the aviation workforce of tomorrow. Learn more at infinityflight.com. Infinity Flight Academy, where future airline pilots take off. And thanks to Sirium for supporting Airlines Confidential.

19:11Ed Pizzarello: Serium offers the most accurate and precise data and analytics to enable airlines to optimize planning, operations, and passenger services. The right intelligence drives operational efficiencies, enables you to predict market shifts, and help airlines respond quickly to maximize revenue, manage costs, and seize commercial opportunity. Visit serium.com for more. Okay, Scott, let's order up some pizza. Ed Pizzarello leads a double life. By day, he is chief operating officer for RMR Capital, an early stage funder of companies. The portfolio includes Five Guys, burgers and fries, plus investments in software companies, including a focus on startups in the travel space.

19:57Ed Pizzarello: Ed's a very smart private equity guy, and he brings those business smarts to his airline passion. That's his other job, travel expert and loyalty industry mover and shaker. Some of you may be familiar with Ed as the Miles to Go podcaster or as one of the organizers of the Freddie Awards, which have been recognizing the voice of the frequent traveler for over 35 years. He's worked very closely with the legendary Randy Peterson, a visionary who started writing about and evaluating loyalty programs decades ago. Ed, with Randy, was a co-founder of MilePoint, a community of frequent travelers helping others, a co-founder of Inside Flyer, and an organizer of Megadu Charter Travel Events for airline enthusiasts.

20:43Ed Pizzarello: He's also a really great guy, and Maya and I have independently known him for years. Welcome to Airlines Confidential, Pizza. Hey, guys.

20:52Maya Leibman: It's incredible to be on the show with both of you.

20:54Ed Pizzarello: I know. We're super excited to have you. And we always get started, as you know, with the infamous Ben Baldanza question. How'd you get into this crazy business?

21:05Maya Leibman: You know, when I got invited to appear on the show, I knew this question was coming. And I figured my answer is probably a lot less interesting than some of the other folks that have been on. You know, I was a high school kid who invested some money in a restaurant. It was a seasonal business and we went bankrupt. And I just figured I had to figure the industry out because I wanted to go back and be successful in it. So I went to culinary school. I got very lucky while I was in school to get a job in the storeroom. I didn't have enough money to go to college. I need to work through school. And I got a job working directly for the director of purchasing.

21:39Maya Leibman: And he became my mentor, a guy named Reggie. And earning$4 an hour, he taught me about procurement for a couple of years. And I left to go take a job down the Jersey Shore again, flipping pizzas and got into a car accident, just a random sort of thing. And this was back in the days before there were cell phones. And so I limped my way back to New York, to our family home. And there was a message on, on the answering machine, uh, about a storeroom clerk job. I had forgotten I had applied for at a hotel in New York. And at that point with no car and no job, it was, it was the option, you know, and, and because of that purchasing job in college, I, you know, I cranked through that storeroom clerk job.

22:16Maya Leibman: I became the director of purchasing in that hotel. And, you know, similar to the aviation industry, one of the big perks in the hotel industry is travel. Um, I could stay at any hotel that our parent company owned for just a few bucks, but, But my big problem was I had to get there. I didn't have any extra money for airline tickets. But I remembered as a kid, and you guys will probably remember this, my dad, who's a road warrior, would take us on these family trips. We'd have these award ticket packs with the red carbon back to them. And I figured if I could learn about how to use these loyalty programs, well, I could stay at these incredible hotels for next to nothing.

22:52Maya Leibman: And around that same time, I remember being lucky to sneak into a talk that Bill Marriott was giving in New York City. and I won't get the wording exactly right, but he said something along the lines of, you know, we sell a time and a place, referring to a hotel room, and if we don't sell it tonight, we can't sell it twice tomorrow, and that's really when it all clicked for me, and I really became fascinated with not only the revenue management side, but how that tied together with the loyalty programs to really make things go.

23:24Ed Pizzarello: Fascinating. That is one of the better answers we've had. I had no idea that you went to culinary school.

23:33Maya Leibman: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to be a chef. That was my, that was my, that was my big dream. And I took a left-hand turn when, when, uh, when a car accident happened and learned the inner workings of the hotel industry and, uh, and how, I mean, very different, how loyalty programs drove those businesses back then. Um, it was, you know, it was a very much a Monday to Thursday road warrior sort of world. It's a, you know, But obviously, as you guys know, a little bit of a different world today.

23:58Ed Pizzarello: Well, as you've seen it evolve over the past couple of decades, I'm really curious from a traveler point of view, has it gotten better or worse?

24:11Maya Leibman: You know, I mean, I think I think the answer is clearly both. I mean, if we think back, I mean, gosh, as a kid getting on airplanes, there was this plastic sign clipped above one of the seats and the green side was where there was no smoking and the red side was where you could smoke on the plane. Yeah, I remember that. So, I mean, you know, things have obviously gotten a lot better from a quality standpoint on planes. Premium cabins, as you guys talk about in the show frequently, have gotten much, much better. But on the flip side, coach seats are far less comfortable, less space for pretty much everything.

24:45Maya Leibman: I, you know, I can't open my laptop up on most coach seats and work. You know, I'll clock about 200 ,000 miles on the road this year, most of it for business travels. and when you think about it you know complementing upgrades you know those are a relic of a previous generation food on board you know at times it better but most of the time it's you know it's not as good uh you know so where it comes to play are things like starlink wi-fi for example um you know i heard you guys discussing this with uh henry a few weeks ago henry hardeveld and you know he you know he noted that united only has about half of the fleet covered right now and that the other half of the fleet um you know still has the legacy wi-fi and i think the part that you know was left unsaid is on that other half of the fleet wi-fi is downright horrible i mean on my flight home last night inoperable wi-fi no starlink um you know flight attendants have made announcements on multiple flights of mine in the past month that they were processing a refund of wi-fi for everyone on the plane due to lack of connectivity and i think here's the important part you know there was a time when, you know, airlines were there primarily to get us to our destination safely and on time.

25:52Maya Leibman: And those are still really important. But, but here's the thing, once you advertise yourself as a premium carrier and you offer premium amenities, well, you need to deliver it. That's part of the value prop of why the customer paid you more for the ticket. And I think this is a miss sometimes for the airlines that they think they can still rely on that. You know, well, we landed the plane on time. You know, they're selling an upgraded experience and they, they need to deliver on that.

26:16Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. I hear you. At the same time, I feel like the expectations, some of the expectations I think that travelers have are a little absurd. Sure. If you paid$10 ,000 for a business class seat that doesn't work, you have every right to be super irritated and to get a refund. At the same time, I'm just remembering that Louis C.K. comedy sketch. I don't know if you remember when Wi-Fi first came out and it was also not working great and people were like, you know, oh, this is such crap. It's like how quickly the world owes you something that didn't exist like five minutes ago. But okay, enough editorializing.

27:00Ed Pizzarello: I hear what you're saying.

27:01Maya Leibman: No, do it. Editorialize it.

27:03Ed Pizzarello: Look, when you and I first met, it was like way back like 2010 or something like that. I was running the Advantage program at the time. And you came in and you're like one of these guys who knows the program better than 99 % of the people that work at the airline, including the people who are running the program. So I was curious then what you thought about the program and just about loyalty programs in general. There's obviously been a lot of changes. What do you think they do well now? What don't they do well? Tell us your, your, give us your take on loyalty programs today.

27:40Maya Leibman: Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely think it's important to frame up how important loyalty programs are for the industry. I mean, you know, you, you guys, uh, you know, we, I think we've all heard some of the, the rumblings from, from bond holders with JetBlue and, um, and even talked about on the air show podcast recently about how, um, the, the value of those bonds has gone down because the holders think that maybe they won't get paid. And I think the part that maybe is a little bit implicit in how folks have been talking about it is those bonds against Jet Blue's loyalty program, I'm putting my private equity hat on here for a second, that's essentially unsecured debt.

28:19Maya Leibman: And what I mean by that is when an airline pledges an airplane and doesn't pay the loan off, the bank can take the plane. But these bondholders are saying, we believe Jet Blue, True Blue is going to keep making money for a long time. And that's why we're willing to loan you money against it. And the bank is counting on that credit card revenue. I mean, credit card revenue is such a huge part of what the loyalty programs, you know, offer today. And that's a big part of what makes the programs go. And I think loyalty programs are incredible at moving customers down the funnel, you know, getting them to adopt the credit card.

28:51Maya Leibman: But I'm not sure that the, I'm not sure the value prop is still there the way it was. I mean, we know that, you know, things like upgrades have gone away and stuff like that. But I think there, you know, when you say, you know, what's going well, what's going poorly, I think there's a tale of two cities. I think American, you know, when you ran the program, I think you focused on trying to find ways to get folks to engage in the program. It wasn't punitive per se, it was encouraging them to be a part of the ecosystem. And I think when Advantage reorganized a few years ago and created the loyalty point scheme with milestone rewards.

29:23Maya Leibman: I think that became a way to engage customers, not just when they were flying. And it was a really smart way to do it. I think Southwest, even with all their recent ups and downs, they're still focusing on using the companion pass as a tool to say to their best customers, hey, here's a defined benefit. Every time you get on one of our planes, as long as there's an extra seat, we're going to give it to you. And that's a really interesting value prop where on the flip side, you say like United Airlines uses plus points for their top tier elites. And these are points that they can use to upgrade to premium cabin, but they're capacity driven and frequently they don't clear.

30:02Maya Leibman: And so which one's better, the defined benefit versus the sometimes benefit? I mean, it's a good question and each traveler needs to make that decision. I think one of the programs that really does it well right now is a little bit north of the border, and that's Air Canada. Aeroplan, they take their top tier elites. Scott, I heard you making fun of Southwest for their program names. Maybe not making fun of them, but certainly calling out that silver, gold, and platinum are maybe not the most original names. Aeroplan, they call their top tier folks.

30:36Ed Pizzarello: So it's a great disappointment in my life.

30:41Maya Leibman: But those super elites, you know, they think about this very holistically. There's a team of concierges at key airports for their top tier flyers. And when something goes wrong, those concierges are there to step in and make sure those people get where they're going. You know, their top customers get complimentary lounge access, but they go a step further and they say, we're going to invite your family to join you. And they have these incredibly valuable benefits that they call priority rewards. And I think this is a really unique benefit that more programs should think about ways to adopt. And what it says is like, hey, you know what, you're not going to get a discount on every reward.

31:15Maya Leibman: You're not going to get an upgrade every time you fly with us. But when you tell us a trip is really important, we're going to give you a discount on the award redemption for that trip. And I think that that's key to still be able to offer this value, especially when you think about most of these elite status benefits that the airlines offer. Think free check bags, priority boarding. Those are all included with the credit card. So why do I need to spend all that money being loyal to one airline if I could just hold a credit card and get the same benefits? Yeah.

31:46Ed Pizzarello: So speaking of that passion, I'm really curious about the underworld of travel enthusiasts. I went on the first Megadu with you and some others as well. So explain what a Megadu is or was. I'm curious if there will be more. And just what do you make of the loyalty program gamers? And is that still a thing when everything's so dollar-based that it's hard to game?

32:20Maya Leibman: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. And gosh, I mean, it's 15 years ago, I think, that you and I were on that first Megadu. And for those that don't know what those are, it was a bunch of crazy folks. I was not the creator of that idea. I tagged along and helped organize. uh but others uh tommy danielson yep yep yep and um and so he had this crazy idea you know why not give an airline uh why not promise an airline a hundred thousand dollars to charter a plane somewhere and do a bunch of cool you know aviation geeky things and and get everybody all these you know gamers to to pay enough money to to cover this massive uh bill from the airline and the airlines were great about it uh you know we did this with united we did with american and And essentially we worked – so with United, we work with the United We Care charity.

33:11Maya Leibman: With American, it was Susan G. Komen. And so we raised money for those charities after we finished paying for the very expensive charter plane. And the airlines in exchange gave us things like – I remember doing – when Maya was running the program, we did flight attendant training down in Dallas-Fort Worth. We got to jump out of a test airplane on a slide, and we did the water evac and all that fun stuff. And, you know, I don't know that there'll be mega dues in the future. There's this passion, you know, for the loyalty programs that's still out there. But I think there's a different way to look at it.

33:45Maya Leibman: JetBlue's 25 for 25, I think, is a really good example for folks that don't know that JetBlue for their 25th anniversary had a contest where they gave away 25 years of status in their Mosaic, in their True Blue program, Mosaic status. And there were a bunch of folks who pursued that challenge and ended up in various random places that JetBlue flies in the Caribbean and such. And it became something of a rallying cry for JetBlue to really celebrate their 25th birthday and to celebrate their members.

34:19Ed Pizzarello: All right. I personally, I think Ed's giving sort of the sanitized version of the Megadu. I mean, basically you add like, basically take like a few hundred of the most devoted airline fanatics on earth and charter a plane, fly it somewhere for pretty much no reason, except that flying is the point. And add like open bars and people who can recite tail numbers from memory. And it's, you know, it's kind of like the joy of a Comic-Con where everyone in the room shares the same obsession. It's sort of like part pilgrimage, part convention, part frat party or something. I don't know.

34:58Maya Leibman: Yeah. We are the furries of the airline world, no question. The open bar parts are definitely parts that will live in quiet legend. Don't tell Tommy Tuberville. Goodness.

35:09Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. I think that the best thing I did, my best career move was to agree to the Megadu because I felt like we could really tap into the passion that people felt around the Advantage program. and then leave the job before it happened so that my successor, Suzanne Rubin, had to actually fulfill it. And she said she didn't sleep for like two days and it was total chaos. So I wasn't sorry to have missed it. Okay. Listen, both of you live in this airline podcast world. And so I want to hear the part that the audience doesn't see. All right. So I'm going to ask you guys a bunch of questions and these are for you too, Scott.

35:49Ed Pizzarello: So first, what is the hardest part of doing this airline podcast stuff? Scott, you go first, then Ed. Honestly, I have completely loved it. I don't find a lot of it hard. I suppose the most challenging is the scheduling, scheduling of all the co-hosts and guests. And look, I have to stay on top of airline news, But that's what I've always done. So I don't find that part hard at all. I love putting together, you know, a show. And it's a different role for me in the sense, you know, I don't consider myself a journalist anymore. I'm not out there reporting, but I do. Somebody described me as an analyst.

36:38Ed Pizzarello: And I guess I think that label is as good as anything. So it's been an adjustment in that. But I don't know. I have completely loved it. Ed? It shows. It's clear that you love it. But yeah, the scheduling's got to be insane. What about you, Ed?

36:57Maya Leibman: Well, before I answer, I almost feel like I've got to call Scott out a little bit and put my podcast host ad on. Uh-oh, here it comes. But look, I was fortunate enough to be interviewed by you multiple times over the years when you were with the Journal. And I think for me, when I listen to you have a conversation on Airlines Confidential, I can't help think it feels like your process of fact-finding for an article. So when you say you're an analyst more than a journalist, I mean, I think about sitting on a hotel shuttle bus or, gosh, I mean, you think you interviewed me once on an airplane. You sort of like weave your way through a conversation with me, like periodically jotting notes down back when we used to all jot down physical notes.

37:39Ed Pizzarello: Interviewed your wife, too, by the way. Yes, you did. The infamous hairdryer.

37:43Maya Leibman: Yes. I still, which I still have to be beholden to decades later, but you know, like those, all those notes would end up, you know, with like a snippet that you might publish of something I said in the journal. but now like listening to you talk with either a co-host or a guest it's like we get to hear all that fact finding that went that went into the article that you wrote and it's almost like I don't know it's almost like it still scratches that itch of being a journalist

38:10Ed Pizzarello: minus maybe the corporate overlords yeah no that's exactly right and one of the things I love about the format is you can include the whole interview right in the in the journal I'd have a 12 word quote and that was it.

38:24Maya Leibman: Right. Right. And you leave all the other good stuff on the cutting room floor. Yeah. You know, I think, um, you know, Maya for, as far as the hard part for me, short story that I'll tell about you. I remember when you and I first met at that loyalty summit back in whatever, 10 or 11, something like that. You made a comment about how, uh, you know, myself and the others were the kids that took apart their mom's toasters to figure out how they worked. And, and I'll never forget that comment. I think the toughest part for me about, being a podcaster in the miles and points space is there's always somebody out there that knows more about these programs than I do because they're incredibly complex and there are all these different programs.

39:01Maya Leibman: And I get these notes after a recording that say, you know, you said X, Y, Z, and you're wrong. And here's why. And in a litany of why I'm wrong. And so, you know, I'm constantly reading to make sure that I'm quoting whatever is the current rules or benefits of a program so that I can try to stay ahead of those listeners and viewers that are always just one step ahead.

39:26Ed Pizzarello: That's hilarious because I mean, yeah, I guess there's always going to be somebody who's even deeper into it, but you strike me as super deep on this stuff. So I would say directionally, you're probably always right. All right, but let's keep going. I want to do this more as a lightning round. Okay. So more on podcast stuff. Like how long does it take you to prepare for an episode, Scott? Several hours to put together the draft of a script or so, and, you know, more time scheduling. Ed?

39:59Maya Leibman: I mean, I read a lot. And so I wouldn't say I do a ton of show prep in leading up to the show. It's more about all the reading and listening. I listen to a lot of podcasts. And I think, you know, Tony Kornheiser, pardon the interruption, said something a long time ago that I took to heart. He said, you know, don't ever start a show with someone that you're not great friends with. And so I rarely take guests that I don't know or haven't spoken with before. I had the same co-host for past six years or so now. So I'm really comfortable talking with folks when I get them on the show and it's a comfortable rhythm.

40:32Maya Leibman: So I don't necessarily have to do pre-show prep as opposed to just trying to be a subject matter expert. Cool.

40:38Ed Pizzarello: Let me add to that. I do spend a fair amount of time. I have a whole system for marking news notes and saving things that I want to talk about on the podcast. Right. And that's time I haven't figured in.

40:53Maya Leibman: Yeah, that's I do the same thing. I will read and I will make notes and I keep a notes file synced between my laptop and my iPhone and my iPad where I'm jotting down stuff that I know I want to either go down a rabbit hole or bring up on a future show.

41:08Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, that's really cool. That's where the passion is and that's why it's clear that you guys really like doing this stuff because I think we can feel that when we listen. All right, Ed, can you make money doing a podcast like this?

41:23Maya Leibman: I mean, you can. I think it really depends on what you want out of it. I mean, you guys know there's a ton of money and credit card referrals in the space. It's just not a not a lane I've ever really wanted to go down because I like to, to be independent of, of any sponsor of the show. We've, you know, we've taken sponsors of the show periodically that align with the show. I think, you know, sadly for, for Scott, uh, when it comes to airlines confidential, I think the, the world of, of audio podcasts making money, um, has passed us and it's really about video. Um, you know, we're, we're, you know, uh, for years we've had, you know, thousands of downloads of each audio episode, uh, each week, but we've never really broken into the tens or hundreds of thousands.

42:03Maya Leibman: And having been on video now, you know, two or three years, we just had an episode a few weeks ago where we talked about, you know, a couple of planes that were too premium heavy in terms of weight and balance. And, you know, they went viral. And, you know, in 10 days we had 70 or 80 ,000 people downloading and listening to the show or watching the show. So as much as I have a face built for radio, it's a video world where the money is being made.

42:29Ed Pizzarello: that's so interesting because i so prefer audio maybe just because you know i do podcasts while i'm walking or commuting or something like that but i yeah and i got enough stuff to watch yeah

42:42Maya Leibman: i'm i'm the same i watch podcasts that are listen to podcasts sorry at 1.3 or 1.5 or 1.7 depending on how how fast the people talk and i can consume so much information that way to your point when I'm on the treadmill in the gym or, you know, walking through an airport and that's where I'm quote unquote reading. That's a lot of my reading.

43:02Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. All right. What about you, Scott? Well, that's really interesting. I mean, you know, well, I'm very grateful for the sponsors we have because they do, you know, there are bills to pay and they, and they pay the bills. But you know, when, when Ben asked me to join him, he said, you know, there's some, there's some beer money in it. And that's right. But I don't, and this is going to sound really stupid, I think, but I don't want it to be about making money. And we get solicitations all the time. Oh, we run this company and we can do this for you. We can do that for you. We can boost this and we can bring in this money.

43:47Ed Pizzarello: That's not what this is about. We're just doing this for fun, for the love of the industry, for educating people. And I don't want it to be a job. And maybe that's that's silly. You know, I mean, Maya, you and I had talked to somebody before who was who was very, very private equity savvy and all like, I can show you how to make money with the podcast and pass. I mean, that's that's not what I wanted it to be. You had all this advice for you. And I was like, I can guarantee you have thought more about this podcast than Scott has thought. Yeah.

44:21Maya Leibman: Right. Well, I mean, Scott, you bring up a really good point that these are, these are passion projects. And I think the great thing about having some level of aligned sponsor, like, like airlines confidential has is it allows you to focus on what you do best. And same with me, you know, Jeremiah, the guy that's produced my podcast for forever, he charges me, you know, a very reasonable sum, but it's money that I could in theory do myself, but I'm not tech savvy enough for that. So I view it as the small amount of money that we have come in from support allows me to focus on the things that I'm good at, which I think is probably similar to where you are of, Hey, like, let's, let me, let me be me and have somebody who's really great at the audio and video production handle that other stuff.

45:03Maya Leibman: Right. Right. Absolutely.

45:05Ed Pizzarello: All right. Good, good point. Um, all right. Like who listens to these podcasts and have you ever been surprised that you thought it was going to be this type of audience and then you find out that somebody completely different is listening to it? Yeah, I don't think surprised. I mean, Airlines Confidential is obviously a very heavy airline audience. And I hear from CEOs, I hear from gate agents, I hear from pilots, flight attendants, I hear from students, I hear from a lot of students, which I love, you know, people who are passionate about the industry coming in. I hear from some road warriors.

45:47Ed Pizzarello: I wish I heard from more, frankly. And I don't know. You know, we can track things like cities where people are listening. And, you know, no surprise. It's Dallas, Chicago, New York, Atlanta. but far flung. I hear from people, you know, living on the other side of the world and, and all over. So I don't know. I, I, I love who listens. But I wish it was more. All right. What about you, Ed?

46:20Maya Leibman: You know, I think there's a really interesting thing that I didn't necessarily expect with, with podcasts. I think you both know, I used to write a blog on a daily basis and I still write from time to time. I love writing, but I moved to podcast for the reasons that Scott talked about earlier. I wanted to have the longer conversation with someone. And the really interesting thing happened. There were all these keyboard warriors who would reply to a blog post with their quick take. And then I started podcasting and I would get these emails from folks that were three, four, five paragraphs long.

46:50Maya Leibman: And it occurred to me that, you know, they're investing time. You know, our shows 30 to 40 minutes a week, they're listening to us 30 to 40 minutes a week. And they start to um you know it's almost like they start to come in you come into their lives in a way and they're they're they're hearing you every single week for a massive amount of time and um and it builds this um this relationship they almost feel like they know you and and when i transitioned to video um and people started to know what i look like i ended up having some of these weird things where i remember i was at disney world with my son walking into the men's room and someone who was a viewer of the show is like oh hi ed as i'm walking in the men's room just want to introduce himself.

47:28Maya Leibman: So I think podcasts for most folks, and like you, Maya, I listened to almost all my podcasts. I think you just, you get invested in the person you're listening to. And there's so much, so much nuance that these people are, they're, they're passionate fans.

47:43Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. That's very cool. Remember, this is a lightning round. Okay. Sorry. All right. I'm going to go to the next one. Since no discussion would be complete without mentioning AI. So now that AI can summarize an entire earnings call or a loyalty program change in just a few seconds, does that make having a human host like you guys more or less valuable?

48:11Maya Leibman: I mean, my two cents is it makes us more valuable. Context is everything. You know, Doug Parker's 101 class on the show almost a year ago was incredible context. It talks about the history of the industry. It went far beyond anything an AI is going to tell me.

48:26Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, good point. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I, you know, I've tried, it's interesting. I've asked ChatGBT, Claude, you know, what should, what should Airlines Confidential talk about this week? And, and it's the obvious stuff. You know, fuel prices, well, they're not going to talk about fuel prices every week. So I just think we add a lot. We will for a long time to come. And that's what makes it valuable. I also think that one of the things I love about Airlines Confidential is the historical record we've created where you have Frank Lorenzo or you have Richard Anderson, Doug Parker talking about consolidating the industry, Maury Gallagher, all those people that we've had on who have explained the industry, there is a historical record there that I think is valuable for the industry.

49:20Yeah.

49:21Maya Leibman: I mean, it's great to have AI summarize something, but at the end of the day, what evokes the conversation is me disagreeing with something that Doug says about revenue management or pricing. It evokes that thought.

49:33Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. No, I agree with you guys. So for now, your jobs are secure. As well-paying as they are. And despite the fact that you have totally failed on the lightning round approach. Yeah, exactly. What is the most memorable thing, like good or bad, that a listener has ever said to you or a guest? Well, for me, the most memorable thing was when I did the introduction of Frank Lorenzo, and there was this long silence. And I was so close to saying, Frank, are you still there? and then he launched into what a horrible way to start and that was the most memorable

50:18Maya Leibman: that's good what about you ed uh you know i this is a tough one to to talk through but uh i had a listener write me we've done a bunch of charity stuff and we we did a a fundraiser for a company called give kids the world in florida sort of like the backbone behind uh the make a wish foundation And effectively, these are terminally ill children. And she made a donation to the charity drive we did. And in the story that she told me, she said that they had been a guest at Give Kids the World. And I mean, at that point, you know that she's almost certainly lost a child and she wants to support what we're doing.

50:52Maya Leibman: And the fact that she was willing to share that with me, never met this woman, was really caused me to take a step back and just think about the people that are listening.

51:02Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, good stuff. All right. I will turn it back to you, Scott. That was my putting you on the hot seat for a few minutes. Now I'll let you take back over. Okay. My turn on the podcast theme, Ed. Who's your favorite co-host on Airlines Confidential? Present company excluded. Yeah, no, just kidding.

51:21Maya Leibman: I was going to say that the suck up is both of you guys, but I mean, it would have to be, it would still have to be Ben. I mean, the idea that he had for this show, beer, money and all, I mean, you know, it's just great as a nerd of the industry to tune in and listen every week.

51:34Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, Ben and Charlie Shapiro, who's the behind the scenes guy who really helped Ben create this and still edits and produces the show every week and does it because he loves the industry. Just phenomenal. All right. But seriously, when I first got into this, you gave me some very helpful tips. And I really love what you do. Your podcast is authentic and honest and so informative. So give us a critique of how we're doing.

52:05Maya Leibman: Well, I think the tip that you're referring to early on was probably about reading off a script, which was my big issue when I started. Everybody, the folks that helped me start the podcast wanted me to be scripted. I'll just say this. I've known you for a long time. I don't want to sound like I'm sucking up to you, but give me Scott McCartney unfiltered. I want the decades of context about the industry. You just mentioned it about the history of the show. So the magic is instead of you asking all the questions, is you getting to not only debate the topics, but tell someone when you disagree or when they're just wrong because they got the history wrong.

52:42Maya Leibman: That's podcasting gold to me. And when you come off script and you just get into it with a guest or a co-host, man, there's just so much behind the scenes that we get to see.

52:54Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, like when he does his rants about FAA modernization. I call that rant number 12. Rant number 62 is about airport safety.

53:06Maya Leibman: Don't forget about silver, gold, and platinum.

53:08Ed Pizzarello: Silver, gold, and platinum, yeah. I went off last week about Dallas Love Field, and Doug accused me of trying to start a trouble. Yeah, he did. Which was sort of true, I think.

53:20Maya Leibman: Agreements are agreements, Scott. All right.

53:24Ed Pizzarello: Last question, Ed. What credit card should I get?

53:29Maya Leibman: Well, you don't need Advantage Miles with your privileges, that's for sure. I would say today's world, it's all flexible currency cards. That's where the value is for people. Chase Sapphire, built Palladium. Don't rely on any airline or hotel to specifically give you value. The co-brand cards just don't have the really good earning rates. The banks are the ones that are, banks are the ones that are rewarding customers more. And as a nerd, I'd say, I'm going to be really interested to see how that battle continues. Chase issues so many of the co-brand cards for folks like United and Hyatt, but they're also issuing points that transfer into those programs.

54:05Maya Leibman: That's a battle that's going to play out over the next handful of years in contract renewals.

54:10Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, whatever. I sort of feel like going direct with the airline or the hotel just is so much easier. And there's just like nothing like getting a free flight. I mean, it's just, I'm still with the co-brand.

54:29Maya Leibman: Yeah, sure. But you're hoping the airline opens the space that you need. And those flexible currencies, you can still buy a free flight. You can buy it right through the airline's portal and you can pick any flight you want.

54:42Ed Pizzarello: Yeah, I don't know. Where do you come out on this, Scott? Well, I have personally, I've ventured into a lot of, you know, Chase Sapphire. I've gotten great benefits out of. I still use a 2 % cashback card because that produces better return than getting a half a point, you know, half a penny, a point on a Marriott card or, you know, one cent on an airline card. So I do think there are a lot of perks out there for people to get. And there's several cards that really deliver. And I have to say, I like having status at hotels as well as airlines. My wife kids me. I'm all about the free breakfast.

55:32Ed Pizzarello: And she thinks that's just absurdity beyond absurdity. But whether I eat breakfast or not, I want the free breakfast. And when I was traveling for business, it made no sense because The Wall Street Journal would happily pay for my breakfast. So I don't know why I was so passionate about a free breakfast, but I was and still am. Yeah, we're all a little irrational when it comes to travel and these various currencies and these loyalty programs.

56:03Maya Leibman: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's where they're at the best. If these programs can make customers make emotional decisions, that's where they win.

56:10Ed Pizzarello: Yeah. Now, one of the former presidents of one of the loyalty programs told me that people will pay anything for a free flight. Yeah. Exactly. Well, on that note, perfect ending. Pizza, thank you so much. This has been delightful and informative and really great to catch up with you. and even interesting on podcasts in our workings. Love it. Thank you. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. Thanks, Ed. All right. We will be right back with more on Airlines Confidential. Promotional support provided by the ultimate avgeek website, theairchive.net, a vast collection of airline memorabilia, timetables, route maps, rare cabin and airport photos, special flights, and more, all at theairchive.net, the hub of air transport history.

57:01Ed Pizzarello: Thanks again to Pizza for a really interesting discussion. All right, one question in the mailbag, but first, thanks to Ontario International Airport for its support of Airlines Confidential. Ontario International Airport is wrapping up major upgrades in both terminals with additional TSA screening lanes, welcoming exit corridors and modern family restrooms to make your journey smoother and more accessible than ever. Getting from parking to your gate quickly and back again at the end of your journey is part of what makes ONT SoCal so easy. Visit FlyOntario.com to learn how the airport is keeping wait times low and creating a better travel experience even as more passengers choose to fly through ONT.

57:49Ed Pizzarello: Thanks as well to the Executive MBA in Aviation at the University of Colorado, Denver. The Executive MBA in Aviation at CU Denver is the first degree of its kind in the world, taught by industry experts and designed for ambitious leaders from across the aviation ecosystem. With classes located at Denver International Airport and week-long residencies in Washington, D.C. and at airports around the world, students experience a hybrid, flexible course structure that balances in-person and online classes without career interruption. Go to business.ucdenver.edu to learn more. Okay, Maya, in the mailbag, a note from Mark in Cortez commenting on a discussion you and I had last year about the future of supersonic travel, including environmental implications and prospects for boom supersonic.

58:39Ed Pizzarello: Mark says, hi, Scott, I really enjoy your podcast and I'm always excited to hear when Maya will be a guest host as I value her perspective and insights. You both previously shared your views about the chances of supersonic travel coming back and Boom's prospects. You both indicated that environmental impact would be a critical success factor item. I checked, and Boom's objectives include the ability to operate 100 % on sustainable aviation fuel. Another reason I believe supersonic travel will return and will be successful is the size of the aircraft. Overture, that's Boom's initial aircraft, Overture's smaller capacity is right size for demand opportunity.

59:25Ed Pizzarello: It will be far more fuel efficient than Concorde was and combined with the ability to operate on SAF and have higher utilization than a subsonic jet, i.e. multiple transatlantic legs per day, that should have better operating economics. I had the good fortune to fly Concord three times. I hope I will have the opportunity to fly supersonic again. Keep those great podcasts coming. What do you think, Maya? Well, first, thanks, Mark, for your really kind comments. And I just have to say three Concord flights. I'm super jealous. That is three more than I had. And so that is very cool. You know, Scott, I went back and actually listened to this episode because I remember we had talked about it, but I wanted to hear what we had said.

1:00:12Ed Pizzarello: And I think we were pretty high on boom and, you know, felt like this was a good airplane and everyone loved the Concorde. And there were enough people who would love to take advantage of, you know, supersonic travel in lieu of, let's say, their private jet flight or a$10 ,000 business class fare so that there would be some demand for this. But then we were sort of reined on the parade in terms of saying, look, there's some serious environmental issues, given that these aircraft are higher polluting, given that they're going to be using so much additional fuel, and, you know, and then the sound issues with the sonic boom.

1:00:51Ed Pizzarello: So I guess in the intervening year and a half or so, since we last talked about this, a couple of things happened, like, as Mark said, they've decided to go 100 % SAF, sustainable aviation fuel. And I think that's great. But, you know, the being able to run on it, and then being able to get it are kind of two different things, you know, SAF is still just a really tiny share of the global jet fuel market. And it costs more, and more of it is needed as more airlines want it, you know, so you're, you're talking about like the scarce resource, it's expensive and it's a thirstier plane. So, um, so that's great that it's going to be a hundred percent SAF.

1:01:36Ed Pizzarello: It's just whether that's, that's a reality. And the, the other thing we talked about was the sonic boom. And there are a couple of things that I think are happening. Number one, the FAA has proposed ending the ban on the, uh, supersonic travel over land and boom as well as said that it's doing some testing. And on one of its recent tests, it says it can fly supersonic. It did a test and they had sort of microphone arrays on the ground and were able to do so without the sonic boom. So, I mean, if they tick off those issues that I think we had identified, then more power to them. God knows I would love to see this.

1:02:17Ed Pizzarello: And in the meantime, the company is making and selling turbines for AI data centers. And then we know that there's plenty of demand for that. So, you know, if they can find a way to make money before they actually have their first flight, then that's great. You know, I'd love for this to happen. So hopefully Mark's right. Yeah. I mean, there's a real cashflow issue here, right? They ditched or they broke up with Rolls-Royce, they're going to develop their own engine, which adds a whole lot of complexity to all of this, right? But they're going to use that engine as an electricity generator or use that engine technology to make turbines.

1:03:02Ed Pizzarello: So just a lot of questions in all of this. They've got a factory in Greensboro, North Carolina, but apparently nothing's happening there and a long way to go. Yeah, I think they also have to have 500 employees at that Greensboro factory by the end of the year or something like that. Yeah. Or the lease could be terminated. Right, right. I think Greensboro's committed to them and they'll renegotiate or whatever. But obviously, their initial claim that they were going to have this thing flying by what? I don't remember. 2029 or something? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a realistic. I think the original claim was entering airline service in 2029.

1:03:54Ed Pizzarello: It seems impossible at this point. A more realistic goal might be first flight of the airplane in 2029. What do you think will happen first? The FAA eliminates floppy disks or Zoom has their first flight? Which are you taking the over-under on? Boy, I don't know. Or the Democrats flip Texas. Yeah, exactly. All sounds somewhat unlikely. Things you never thought you'd see in your lifetime, right? Yeah, yeah. No, great point. I don't know. I'm not betting on any of that, but I hope it all happens. Yeah, if any of it happens, you'll hear about it here on Airlines Confidential. Right, we are all over the Texas election results.

1:04:45Ed Pizzarello: all right my thank you so much thank you scott it was a lot of fun and thanks ed and and uh thanks everybody for listening uh that's all for this week thanks for listening everyone

1:04:57Maya Leibman: and have a great week this podcast is produced by mass media info at massmedia.net