786. The Modern Woman’s Guide to Motherhood AND Career Success (Yes, you can have both)

21:56Like this just felt, and you mentioned this,

22:02Lindsey Simcik:it felt like I was learning new again and that felt good, which, you know, I don't think we think about, you know, we, we, we think about like kind of this linear trajectory of like, okay, we're in school and then we have the job and then we like progress success wise, but we never think about going back to kind of this beginner's mindset and how good that feels and how much the brain loves that and how much like just the human spirit loves that. So did you ever have a moment where you were intimidated by that like just kind of starting from scratch beginning vibe that was happening as a new mom?

22:41Did you ever have that looming of like, if I pause or downshift my career, am I going to be missing out on, you know, years of relationship building and, you know, kind of going

22:56Lindsey Simcik:up the corporate ladder? That would be beneficial to me because I think a lot of women feel that fear. Yeah. I think that's sort of the foundational block that women feel when they're making any career change. And your work is so much on transition. And you know that transitions, no matter what, are difficult, right? And I think when you're part of it, you're stepping into motherhood. As it is, I think there's a lot around, am I going to lose myself? That's been the narrative. And I often offer, you might shed parts of yourself, right? But you're just like, you change from the age of 5 to 10 to 10 to 50 and 50 to 30, right?

23:33Like you're going to change. And it's going to lead you to the next version of yourself. And I think I was ready for that next version. I was itching for it. Not everyone is. And I want to also share that I think I was already getting disenchanted with my work at the time. And so I was eager to learn, open up into something new. And I wanted that to reset. And so I came to that easily. I think what I struggled with was that our careers and what we do for a living have come to stand in for our ambition, our feminism. When you were saying to me just now that sometimes you try and talk yourself out of that piece, I think it's because we associate motherhood with martyrdom.

24:21We associate it with tradition. We have dumbed down parenthood in this culture for so long to diapers and laundry and like simplicity. And we make that feel not rich enough. Whereas like, you know, and you will continue to know this in your parenting journey that the like real work of parenthood is the sort of behind the scenes studying of their brains growing, figuring out new rhythms in your home, communications with your partner, communications with your village to figure out, well, how do I create a family and a household that thrives when there's illness? How do I create patients in myself?

24:58When there's sleepless nights, what are the strategies? And that becomes the real work of parenthood, right? Then, you know, that obviously develops as kids grow and the problems become a little bit more, you know, social dynamics and diagnoses. And so, you know, that level of advocacy, interest, research, planning, that part has been diminished for so long. So instead, we think of, well, the homemaker. And that association has been so flawed in this culture. And when I was facing the pushback, I struggled a lot with, I have derived so much value from what other people think of me. And I'm hearing loud and clear that what they think is I'm giving up when really I'm not.

25:44And that tension was hard. And it's why the first part of that first chapter is about how do we rewrite ambition and feminism? Because I knew deeply that this did not make me feel like I was taking a step back. But I had to reconcile that with everyone else's perception. Did everyone else catch up? I think they're catching up now, right? Like real time. But it becomes a superpower in motherhood, right? Like this constant flexing of having to make choices that feel right for you and your child and your family that not everyone's on board with, whether it's co-sleeping or sleep training, breastfeeding or battle feeding, private school or public school, nanny or at home.

26:25So when you're choosing to pause or return to work, you're going to get pushback because everyone is making sense of their own choices. And when you realize that, it becomes really freeing and it becomes, like I said, a superpower, a perspective of how can I make the right choice for right now and trust myself along the way. But, you know, a lot of that chapter is about rewriting and investigating where did our ideas of ambition and feminism come from? Why do they no longer apply? Because they didn't feel like they, I did not feel like I or the women I was meeting or the women you were meeting matched the caricature that they were being fed.

27:04Can you describe that caricature? Yeah. So in our research, we commissioned a survey called American Mothers on Paz. The reason I did research, wanted the sort of formal research is because I know that career pause, I think motherhood often gets written off, right? And so you need sort of the gravitas of that. And so we commissioned a survey across census data of 1 ,200 at-home parents and then 1 ,000 members of the general population. We asked them, what do you think of as a stay-at-home mom? And the most common response was a June Cleaver, which is a character from the 1950s sitcom Leave It to Beaver, who is apron clad and in like total service to our family.

27:42If you ask them who they think of as a working mother, they would say, uh, what did they say? Michelle Obama, Sheryl Sandberg, and Beyonce. That is like a pretty immense power chasm. And that is the fear. That is the fear when you are sitting there enjoying the simplicity and the joy of, you're like, but I'm not June Cleaver. Right. And, and so now think about where did that come from? And it was that the 1970s, it was this sort of unique time where it was second wave feminism, right? Which did was a gift. Obviously we showed and proved our capacity in the workforce, but to do that, we said anyone else who was like doing any care work was sort of defending tradition at home.

28:25And at the exact, so then we created this power chasm, the women who worked out of the home, the women in the home, women who worked out of the home, um, continued to be in the news, right? Like the media continued to chronicle that. So that became the sort of power woman like Diane Keaton from Baby Boom. Meanwhile, in the 1970s, we started to see the boom of television. And so June Cleaver was beaming into people's living rooms and that became the portrait of the at-home parent, but she wasn't depicted in the media. So we never updated that perception until now. And you're looking at your audience, my audience, the both of us.

29:04And before having children, right, the average age of having children is 30 and that skews older on the coast, meaning you have had a lot of education and work experience to draw from. Dads are spending three times the amount of time with their kids than any generation before. So we're not serving them cocktails at the end of the day, right? And we have access to digital tools and technology and entrepreneurship is booming and freelance is booming. And so there's this sort of vast gray area in between the black and white ideas of stay at home and working. And so, yes, that caricature still haunted us when I made that choice.

29:38And I think the work that we're doing is trying to update that narrative and just create a much more fluid one.

29:44Lindsey Simcik:Did you find in your research anything connected to like our own moms and how that impacts like the way that we see motherhood? You know, we didn't even ask about our own experiences with mothers. And I've seen both anecdotally. Women who had mothers who worked around the clock out of the home and wanted something different. And women for whom that modeled sort of what success looked like. And then women like myself whose mother did sort of both. She paused. She, you know, she was a zoology major. And then she paused when we immigrated to the country. But she was my dad's complete counterpart.

30:25So I never saw it as anything less than dignified. And then when I was 11, but she was always volunteering. She would take the school bus with me and be the librarian, the ESL teacher. And when I was 11, she went back to work part-time. Right. So, you know, I think that I had some, because of that, I had sort of reverence for that role, but also confidence that I could be anything, mother worker. And I think I had that fluidity modeled for me. Ironically, she was one of the biggest critics of my decision because she felt really nervous for me that I was putting myself in a situation that I would regret one day.

31:06And she's been one of my favorite minds to have changed on that. Yeah.

31:11Lindsey Simcik:I know our parents, it's so funny when our parents kind of show that resistance because it says so much about kind of where they're coming from and feeling and how they felt perhaps about their own experience rather than like really the fear of like this is gonna ruin everything you know it's like if they really dug into that fear I I can imagine because I think my dad was like this for me he's like career first and then you can find your person and so whatever um I think it said so much about like how he viewed my mom you know and giving up things and you know it was less about me and more about kind of his past their dynamic yeah which is often how we perceive and judge the world and of course and that has been one of my deep you know as women who I think often are conditioned to seek approval I don't want to project that onto other people but I certainly was one.

32:08I think when you realize that judgment and criticism often stems from people making sense of their own choices. And it really makes it easier to hold it as less of a personal attack and less grounded in fact or reality.

32:28Lindsey Simcik:Totally. So for people who do want to downshift or are considering downshifting in their career or taking the full pause, I would love to get tactical in how we set ourselves up to feel really confident, to not feel like fear or stress around finances or, you know, kind of a total collapse in career trajectory. What did you do and what do you guide people to do in order to set themselves up? Yeah. I think once you move past the, I'm not giving up my ambition, I'm not giving up my feminism, all of my skills are going with me. This is one chapter. Ambition is defined as the determination to do things, right?

33:11I'm going to do a great number of things over the course of my life and I'll let myself shift for right now. I think right now is a really magical word. I think the very next thing you're going to do, and ideally it's six months before you're pausing in the case of a two-parent household is even if this is a financial no-brainer for your family, you and your partner are going to sit down and have money meetings. And, you know, to my husband's credit, we had been doing this before kids. We had sort of an annual financial meeting together where he was treating our home like literally an organization where this is the money in, this is the money out, these are the things we care about, this is how we're going to assign budgets accordingly.

33:54And what that did was it allowed us room. It was very intimidating for me because I was like, you're going to look at my taxi and Uber habit. This is terrible. But, you know, when we decided together and I was the one to voice it first, like I want flexibility. I want to go part time. Two things happen. Let us try the income shift, right? So I often encourage women, you know, what are you optimizing for in the beginning? Like, do you want to test within the existing role? Is part-time available to you? Is fractional available? I think those two days allowed us to test the income and it allowed me to see like, how would I feel in the home on that day to day?

34:35But from a financial perspective, we were able to have a really clear conversation about how would our home operate on that. We were sort of able to model it out, but we were also able to have a conversation about, does he see the contribution I'm going to be making if I initially downshift or pause. Meaning he was building a tech company at the time. It was a venture funded tech company, which is relevant only because at a drop of a hat, he would have to get on a flight, right? And he was constantly on the road. The reason he could book those trips without even thinking was because there was a security net at home, right?

35:13I was managing most of the care and I was electing to be that security net. But because of that, I was creating an ability for him to single task in the workforce. That ability made us an interdependent organization. I think one of the biggest fears is that we're going to become financially dependent. And I love to offer people this moment that you are going to have this financial conversation and you're also going to make sure that your partner is really on board with we are an interdependent organization. Because then it flips the script that that household income is shared. And then when you're budgeting, you're also budgeting for your own.

36:04I see too many women say, well, I like, I'm going to cut back on clothing or my haircut. I'm going to cut my own hair. Like I had one person say they were cutting their own hair and I was like, don't cut your own hair, you know, unless you're five or trained. And so, you know, the, but how can we make sure that we feel empowered and financially dignified? It starts with making sure that you feel safe and secure and respected in your contribution. There are different ways you can try budgeting. If this is not a financial no-brainer, I've heard of couples who moved. It was a big change for them, but they valued this together.

36:39It was a joint decision. And they said, we're going to move from the Bay Area to Virginia to make this happen. I've seen other couples say, you know what? It's not like a huge, we're going to just cut the line item of travel for a couple of years. A couple of years. The other piece is this isn't one and done. You're ideally coming back over and over and it helps reduce the strain on the relationship too so that the partner working out of the home doesn't feel like they're trapped in this. I do want to call out because I think your listeners are younger and so we have this amazing capacity to help shape the way they have conversations.

37:15So often career pauses have been written off as a luxury for family life. Like stay-at-home motherhood was considered a luxury. And the reason why that's dangerous is because A, it's one, not true. 60 % of women pausing right now are pausing because of the cost of childcare. One in three feel forced. And when we associate one side with luxury, we deem it less worthy of support. And we'll talk about support later, but it's a really important reframe to enter that financial conversation with.

37:43Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, I think the conversation is so important. And I really, do you find that there are certain ways in which you can articulate this shift to your partner that helps them to, because I want to get a little granular because I think people get really intimidated by the conversation. there is this subconscious feeling of like guilt of like, I should be doing more. Well, you know, maybe I can, you know, I'll earn a little money doing this. And, you know, it's like kind of just like shifting and instead of standing in the confidence of what my contribution is and why that's valuable. You articulated it so well, but was there something that you said to your husband or you've heard women say that's just really powerful and like shifting that for the partner because they also have their own stories.

38:38They have their own story. So I'll say a couple of things. I think ideally this isn't a conversation you're having in your own head. Yes. You're having it together. It's ideally not a passing conversation you're having in the car or getting like a coffee. It's a sit down, organized dialogue. And there's tons of scripts and practices in that chapter. Each chapter has practices and scripts because I do think language is so important, but a couple of things to make note of is this starts with a values conversation. What do we imagine for this year? What do we need? Are we optimizing for less stress in the home, right?

39:15If a couple is saying we're optimizing for less stress, we want the, you know, we're both running, then if someone is making a shift, it's to help the entire household, right? I think there's also this other piece around safety, you know, being able to tune in if the partner is not on board, right? And call it out and say, maybe this is an ongoing conversation and let's like see different permutations, staying open to, well, what might make it work, right? If, if why are we choosing to pause? Is it because the very valid one to have more time with our kids, right? Is it for less stress in the home?

40:02Is it to offset the cost of childcare? Deciding together what those reasons are, but if the other partner is still not on board with, we together are making this decision and it still feels one-sided or they are not on board with the interdependent organization, if they're still not on board, continue to have the dialogue. Why? You know, is it because of their mindsets around money and they're worried about savings? And how might you continue to iterate on that? How might you bring in help like a financial planner or a relationship therapist? I think the piece around them just not be on board with the interdependence is much scarier.

40:39And so there I would say if they are not on board, two things. One, this is not the time to pause. I don't think women should put themselves in that position unless they feel protected and secure. If there's a gut instinct that says they are not, this would either be a time to maybe stay connected to part-time fractional work so you have some income available or consider a post-nup agreement. We have a great template on the site that we did with Fair Play because I think we always think of post-nups or prenups as like a bet against our marriage when in reality, especially in that case where there's something that you're not clear on and someone's going to make a shift that's bold, you want to feel secure just like you would if you were stepping into an organization or a client, right?

41:26We contract everything. Why not put that into place? If you haven't yet considered Fair Play, Fair Play was run by a colleague of mine, Eve Rodsky. We share a publisher. It's a great way to break down the tasks that actually go into caring for a home. And I think when we sort of put it out on the table, then there's a way in which to quantify, oh, this is how much this would cost. And it's not just the cost of the babysitter. It's like the family admin, the sitting on the phone with the insurance company, the planning and research for schools. You know, all of that stuff is sort of laid out right there.

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44:51Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, that's so, so helpful. I think, yeah, it's interesting. My husband was on board, is on board, even though I'm still working, but constantly iterating on this because I think, you know, there will be a time in the near future where I really take a pause and I have to be the one that needs to get on board. You know, it's not that I'm like, uh, want to be working all the time. It's more so, uh, receiving support is like an interesting thing for me. Say more. Support from my husband, being financially supported by him. I mean, emotional, all of that I expect, but I was like, oh gosh, like I can lean on you.

45:33Lindsey Simcik:I can really lean. Felt scary. It is scary. It is scary. It's not scary. Unless it's discussed at such in such great detail. Yeah. You're so right. The detail. Unless it's thought about methodically. Yeah. And there's sort of interim check-ins. I think so often we feel like these decisions are permanent. And the reality is you can give yourself six months. The more uncomfortable something feels, I say shorten the window of reevaluation, right? So it might be six months or one year. So you may say to your partner in a case of like a family that's not quite sure it feels right for them right now.

46:18The one partner isn't on board. They say, let's take this in a six-month trial. I even say that, by the way, when people are negotiating flexibilities and their manager isn't on board, say like, let's try this for three months because it reduces the burden on like, we're going to make this change and it's going to be forever and maybe it won't work.

46:38Lindsey Simcik:Let's go to the workplace briefly because I think a lot of people are also intimidated by that conversation of like, what would it look like to take a pause or downshift how much they're working. Who are we talking to? You know, are you leading the conversation? What does that look like? So there's a few different types of resignations. I sort of chronicled them in the third chapter because I think I failed at it. I think I handled it very badly. And by the way, I have a wonderful relationship with my past employers, but I did more of a throw up my hands. I'm done. I'm out. You know, it was just I went in.

47:12And I think the ideal like best practice is that it's sort of a documented and discussed dialogue for a longer period of time. Okay. So like -

47:22Lindsey Simcik:A lot of people wait until like their X amount of weeks or months pregnant. Oh, so you're thinking about people who might just, so I want to correct one myth that is that people only pause after maternity leave. Some of the biggest, most common times to like fully pause, and I certainly experienced this, is any transition period. So certainly it could be after mat leave. It could be after a second child or a third child, right? So when you're adding multiples and so it changes the cost of daycare often or it changes, you know, just the rhythms. Family relocations, a child at like third grade, fourth grade when there's diagnoses around academics.

48:04Teens, like in mental health issues and then college applications. So that year. So it's an interesting. Interesting. So you see a big, I would say this biggest spike is after this had that second child. Yeah, I would think, yeah. And so to back up, if you are on maternity leave, we interviewed a number of HR experts for this. And I would say best practice is take that full maternity leave. You earned it. Like that is part of your benefit package. So take it. there's a couple different ways to resign on the other side of it, which might be go back and see how it feels if you're not fully certain.

48:44If you are certain, there's sort of like a two to four week window. Now, if you are currently employed and you want to resign, or you just know you want more room for family, that's where the sort of three month window gives you time to talk to your manager about how might I make this more sustainable? Like what else could we do? And you might consider talking to other people who have flexibility in your organization, someone who has a similar role to you outside your organization and borrow their template. I always say employers are not assholes, but they don't often want to do the additional work.

49:25Sure. Sure. And then essentially you want to, at the very least, you want to give them as much time to off-ramp as possible or like slide your work over to someone else because it just buys you goodwill. It's called in the loop resignation model, which is like, I want to make this change for my family. Even if you're not considering, I want to make this change for my family life. How can I set you up for success? And then you're going to network on your way out, meaning that last two weeks, you're going to go out for coffee with your manager, with the executive assistant who like you have a really strong relationship with, anyone who you think like they could be my bridge back.

50:06Even if you don't think you're returning to that same company, it just reminds, I think it gives you a sense of dignity of, I've established this incredible network. These people, these relationships belong to me. They don't belong. Oftentimes people will leave Google. They'll be like, I've left Google. Who am I now? All of that skill and accomplishment and network still belongs to you. One other thing that I wish I had done was update my resume and LinkedIn on my way out, meaning that I'm like taking stock of all the wins and I'm like writing in great detail like clients won or podcast hosted or whatever.

50:47you're writing it down because what happens like it did for me 10 years later when you're going to write your resume you're like oh I don't like really remember the details I don't remember last week so yeah that would be a good idea so you're essentially dignifying that stage of life because what you want to do is you want to realize like if you're a 10-year brand marketer that did not go anywhere you were still a 10-year brand marketer and now you're on a career sabbatical where you're going to explore, you know, you're certainly going to shift to focus on some other priorities, but you're also going to have room to grow too.

51:22Yeah, absolutely.

51:23Lindsey Simcik:I think, yeah, I think that's what people often are downplaying is the growth that happens when you do take that pause. And when you are making more time for your family, what did that look like for you? What did you, what were you learning? What was just like sparking inside of you that you hadn't had before. Yeah. I do think that's the biggest myth of parenthood that like you're going to get stuck and you're going to feel like you're not growing. And I think the big shift, and that's why it's the second section of the book, but it starts with redefining what success is for you right now because you've been on this path and people, you've had probably very measurable results, right like a promotion bump or a salary raise and then and you've been told what success looks like and then you're at home with a couple kids or one you know whatever it is and your days are sort of blank in front of you and what happens very quickly and I fell into this trial which is like I'm so in awe of this little person and I'm so like also just full-on like trying to figure out the day-to-day and like just get from like, you know, figure out how to do this, that very quickly you're just like, I guess success is like how smooth the day went with my kids or like how well-behaved.

52:41And we all know that's like a recipe to feel like failure unless you give yourself some sort of way to measure your own growth. Because I know goals can feel really contrived, especially when you're in it and goals dignify your time. Meaning they make you feel like, oh, when I look back on this time, I was moving myself too. And the way to do that, if you do nothing else, if you do not get this book, write in great detail who you want to be in five years. Like what your ideal day is, who you're spending time with, how your relationship with your partner feels, how the energy in your home feels, what you're working on, how you feel in your mind, how you feel in your body.

53:24And it's not like you're going to become that person tomorrow. You know, I'm just thinking back to myself when I was writing this exercise with two kids and I was really having – I had a hard time transitioning to two. So for as much as I felt so at peace with one, I was like brought to my knees the second time around.

53:43And, you know, I did that exercise and in it I saw, oh, I have a personal goal right now to heal a lot of my reactivity. It's something that from like a personal growth perspective that I've checked, like left unchecked for a long time. From a professional perspective, I know I can't build this thing that I care so much about, but how can I like keep it moving? Can I write three posts a week about work and family? That's it. And on a family perspective, I had this vision because I was really, things were like so messy and I was like, what do I want to look back? And I was like, it's going to be a silly house.

54:19We had these like dance parties every Monday. That was success in that chapter. And, you know, the reason to write those down and to make it really measurable and small, right? So it was like for the personal, the reactivity, it was like, listen to one podcast a week on women and anger and communication and emotion, right? That's it. And I can come back to this and see where I am and what direction it's leading me in. And I can, you know, as my kids agent just will all expand this. But it did. It made me feel like I was still growing and it allows you to feel like you are still planting seeds for this next version.

55:00Yeah.

55:01Lindsey Simcik:Being able to measure it is such a great point and I think is so human of us. It's kind of that need to just track and kind of like a cause and effect type situation.

55:17Lindsey Simcik:yeah, I'm curious because what I'm hearing you say, it's almost like treating, and I've like, I've kind of experimented with this. Like it's treating your day to day as a mother, as someone who is just curating a home, managing the home. Like, I mean, we are like the energy readers and orchestrators. We're so much. So much. But it's almost bringing what you learned in more of a corporate setting and kind of bringing it in where it's like, I'm going to treat this very seriously. You know, where it's like, I'm going to have like these certain measurements of success. I'm going to focus on my personal growth and my growth as a mother, as a partner, as a homemaker, as a cook, as, you know, it's like bringing those aspects and just how valuable they are, you know, within the home as well.

56:15Lindsey Simcik:And it's not to say that like you're running a business, but it's like, there is an aspect that helps, I think for a lot of women who are coming from that corporate background, like to, to embrace it even more, you know, to within a context that they're familiar with. And it's like, you can also bring that to your family, obviously with more softness and, you know, there's nuance. And silliness. Like I think that that's the part. You treat it seriously in that this is really important work. Yes. This stage of life isn't happening to you, right? You have ownership. This is enriching. And you get to have a little fun with it.

56:55You asked what sparked inside of me. I had so much ego for so long wrapped up in what I could and couldn't do to be taken seriously. And then you realize like, well, I've already checked my ego at the door, so I might as well experiment. And by the way, I went to my five-year business school reunion and I heard someone say, oh, she has like a little mom blog now. And I remember thinking like, oh my God, like it's like everything I was fearful of. And then I realized, but it's helping me grow. Like I know I'm getting to be creative in ways that I wouldn't have let myself before. I am learning how to prioritize my day to make room for this.

57:37So like the way, and I think that's another thing to take seriously is we diminish women's projects so often, right? Like little Instagram thing, little blog, passion projects, I'd hustle. And then women fear, like especially if that's an avenue for growth or exploration when it's not making money, how do we then give ourselves permission to take it seriously? And I think that that's part of this too is like give yourself permission to take those things that let you feel whole and let you feel growing seriously because otherwise you will regret this chapter. And that's what you don't want to do.

58:16You don't want to look back on these years that you consciously stepped into with so much air and intention and think like, oh, I like didn't grow because you didn't give yourself permission to take the things you wanted, truly wanted seriously.

58:29Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, I think, you know, the best thing that we can do for our kids and our family is allow ourselves to lean into things that really light us up, you know. We have a lot of guilt about that, though. I know. That is actually of all the things. I know. Of all the pieces of this that I really struggled with, it was if I wasn't making money, how could I prioritize my own care and wellness and things like creative pursuit, right? Because they sound so frivolous, but they're not. No. They kept me connected. Obviously, I can say this now. But it took learning, right? I think one in three women who are at home do not have a lick of help, including family assistance, which means they are parenting 24-7 without breaks.

59:20Wow. That's a wild statistic. All the research in the world will tell you that children don't need parents around the clock. They need parents who are healthy and supported and happy, right? And whether you're leaning on a partner, whether you're creating a share in your neighborhood, whether you're leaning on the drop-off at the gym, or you're able to invest in care, or you're outsourcing different parts like food prep to make that room, I think it takes understanding, going back to the household income being joint, that it isn't just an investment in you. It's an investment in the whole household.

59:55and care and whatever shape it comes from comes out of the joint household income. It is another line item. It isn't like next to your income. And I think that's like one of the big pieces. And I think understanding that this is a strategic chapter, it's also a sabbatical where you're allowing yourself to be available for your family and leading into that. And you want to invest in your own growth to be able to return to work of meaning in a way that is stronger. That is a shift Because then you permit yourself going in to invest in care to allow yourself time. Whether that's, you know, three hours a week.

1:00:32And by the way, during periods I did not have paid help, my husband woke up every morning with those kids so that I could do two hours of writing in the morning. Wow. And I would, you know, do my like half-assed exercise and all of that too. The little band, you know, on the list. Yeah. I mean, it was like at one point I think I used like Bodhi's, like those balls, those like sensory balls. I was like between my knees. I was like, I think this is the same size as a Pilates ball.

1:00:58Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, I would love to talk about support and what that can look like. I think people, a lot of people, when they make the decision to be with the family full time, they think, I don't deserve support. I made this choice. I'm going to take it on. I can do this. I was someone in the beginning who had to grapple with that a little bit but I now I'm like the more help the better and we're in a very blessed position to be able to have help and support but I guess what did that look like for you and what have you found to be investments that like pay in dividends investments that you know you can shift some of your other spending to really invest in because it provides you know space to pursue your creativity, space to connect with other moms, space to connect with your partner.

1:01:52Lindsey Simcik:So I think those things we just discount. 100%. So I had a very flawed relationship with health because I did not grow up with child care. Same. And I think, and the irony of that is my mom was the first to be like, get all the child's care because then it'll let you enjoy parenthood. And what was interesting was I looked at the sort of full-time nanny and that didn't feel like it worked for me because I just don't like people in my head. Not because I didn't. I just, I didn't, I know myself. I take care of, like I, in the Uber, I feel sad for the Uber driver if I'm not talking the whole time.

1:02:27The poor guy is like, please stop talking. And I think I'm taking care of him. And so it didn't, so that model didn't work for me in my head. And then I quickly found out that no help. So I will tell you, because I downshifted initially and I had part-time, it felt very clean. I had two days of a babysitter while I was two days out of the home. And then I had her come at four o 'clock on Thursdays so that I could see a friend and have date night with my husband. So that started at about six months with him. And then that worked perfectly. And I let go of some of that when I when I was slowing down my part-time work.

1:03:09But then I had my second. And naturally that babysitter was actually moving on anyways. I remember this was the hard part because I was so in my head about, well, I had this perfect version of balance. This like elusive balance, which we all know is like a myth because that suggests like this perfect equilibrium that can't exist. Sure. And I was looking and I could not, I got myself so wrapped around the numbers of like, how many hours am I spending with Bodie? How many hours am I spending with the baby? I was at home that, you know, and it took cracking. And I talk about this in the book. It took like me trying to do it by myself to, you know, yelling.

1:03:58I was caught between like rocking the baby and like trying to entertain my three-year-old outside. and I just, I yelled at that poor little boy who came like looking for me while I was rocking the baby. And I thought this isn't when we measure presence, not by how many exact hours we are, but how we show up in those moments. And that was the moment where I ended up getting a four day a week mother's helper. And that was perfect because she was able to cook and clean and keep herself like occupied or block and tackle with me. And that worked so well for that transition to two. And then the pandemic hit and my husband ended up doing the mornings and we did it with, you know, we figured out a system that worked.

1:04:41Right. And then it changed again when my kids aged into school and it became, okay, we need three afternoons of a babysitter. And then I dialed up my work and it became four and now it's five after school days, right? And the point being, it's not black or white. You're recalibrating over and over and over to your needs, not just work-wise, but emotionally and the transitions you're going to. And my husband, meanwhile, was the biggest proponent of help because he grew up with all the help. He grew up in New York. And so, like, he didn't understand why I was resisting. And I think that that was a blessing because I interviewed a woman, Helen Ortiz, in that chapter.

1:05:20And she really talked about how, you know, when she stepped into her pause, she really stepped into this mindset of, well, I'm doing this because I want to be with the kids, but I'm also a piggy bank of sorts. Right. And so then she started being like, well, but then if I invest in help, how will that erode at my contribution? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, of course. And that's a flawed mentality. But what they found – so she started trading off her therapy for, right, five hours of babysitting. And that actually convinced her husband, like, wait a second. I'm noticing that when we have babysitting, it's worth the investment because I feel the burden less when I come home.

1:06:06Our relationship, like the resentment is less between us. And then she noticed that between her first child and her second child, her second child who had this babysitter even just one other loving adult in the home had more sort of ease being around other people and so you can start to see that she had to make that initial sort of argument in case which I don't want women to have to do but in her case she was open to sharing this that that was what she needed to do to show our whole ecosystem benefits and I interviewed Tova Klein who you might know she wrote Raising Resilience and then she wrote how toddlers thrive before that.

1:06:42She said, kids don't just need one adult figure all the time. They need to know that they are safe and secure with a lot of loving adults. And I felt like I had that in the book because I wish someone had told me that. I know. Because it was just such a gift to me. And now I, and I think it's why I am so happy to lean into every afternoon with Lauren because guess what? They come home funnier and sillier and they are able to express their independence more with her.

1:07:12Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, there's a, just like we can't be, you know, everything to our one friend. They can't dump everything on us or we can't be everything to our partner. We cannot be everything to our kids. Even though, like, I think I know best. Yeah. I can do it all. Yeah. Like, you know. Yes, I can't. I can't. I'm sort of fairly certain now that I don't know best. I'm really thinking about my kids would be, I never understood people who sent their kids to boarding school. But now I've been like, maybe those people. It's so funny. I was talking about that one. Maybe those people actually have figured it out that their kids are, that you're like outsourcing their like most crucial years, the most challenging years to like trained professionals.

1:07:55Sometimes I'm like, I wish I was a trained professional.

1:07:57Lindsey Simcik:Because I don't know about your experience, but at least at this stage, Mav's 19 months, like he, he feels obviously so comfortable with me. So he reserves all of his, like the meltdowns, which is fine. You know, it's like, this is what we do. But I noticed, you know, Nicole, our nanny will come in and he's like, Coco. And like, we're at him. Who's crying? Who's screaming? Not me. But it's beautiful to build that mosaic of support that, you know, provide different just colors and flavors for your children and for you to just, I think, thrive more, you know, which makes you a better parent. I do want to talk about mom friends to wrap up.

1:08:38Lindsey Simcik:There's so much we can talk about, but I think mom friends, I've just been blown away. I honestly was overwhelmed at the thought of making new friends when I became a mom. I was like, I think I'm good. I'm overwhelmed. And then I just leaned into at least the local community in the beginning. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, what can I pay you guys? Because this is insane. Like, just so supportive, so resourceful. We'll do anything. You know, just that feeling of being in it together and not having to over explain how you feel because it's just for the most part understood is just such a gift.

1:09:24Lindsey Simcik:What is the importance of building your community of mom friends? I think hearing that though is like also what people need to know. because one of the myths besides that you're like going to lose your ambition and feminism and financial dignity and goals is, oh, my network and interests are going to like dry up and shrivel and motherhood. And I think you can attest and I can attest. And most mothers you speak to will attest it is quite the opposite. Right. It may not be the professional network you've established like in the halls of the agency you work at or whatever. But it will be more deep and more diverse of connection than you could have ever imagined.

1:10:07Right. So much richer. Because you're connected with this like invisible thread, right? Small talk is so easy because you're like, what pediatrician do you see? Or like, what play group are you joining? You know, nice diaper bag. And it goes from there to this other piece, which is like, we don't have time to bullshit. So it gets really deep rather quickly. And then these things that start as casual acquaintances because of repeat chance encounter, kind of like college, right? You're bumping into each other at a frat party, then at science class, then brushing your teeth in the hallway. Now you're doing that at the playground, play spaces, pediatrician's office.

1:10:43And it's that same foundation to then start to build these connections that maybe aren't going to be forever. Right. And I think that's one of the things that makes us, we think that it needs to look a certain way that it needs to be this like mom squad that's constantly texting and we're going to be like frolicking in Jamaica with like our dads out there on the grill and the kids are playing perfectly. There's different reasons. There's different seasons. All you really need and the research shows to like have like lower your cortisol is one hour with one other mom in the same stage of life. That's it.

1:11:22No qualifications because it just normalizes what you're going through. But I think the other piece is as we think about like what else can motherhood spark, these relationships are your network because when and if you're thinking about that return, the number of stories I've collected of women who that's their lifeline back, right? And or the spark for their next idea. So I'll use the example. There's this woman, Priscilla. Priscilla is outside of the Bay Area. She was like kind of an introvert, self-proclaimed, had moved to a new area. She was at a swim meet and she started talking and she found a super connector, like someone who's always the host of everything.

1:12:06She started saying yes to this woman. She goes to this woman's book club. She puts herself out there, another like key ingredient, right? Like not like crying in the corner, but she was like, I'm feeling a bit lost. Someone else said me too. And they ended up setting up for two years, every Wednesday, a backyard burrito session where they would just be sounding boards for each other's professional lives and pursuits and interests. And now Priscilla is a tech writer based in Napa, right? And I share that because like sometimes it's just that camaraderie that you need and like just someone to pass the day, like to punctuate the day.

1:12:42And sometimes it's professional. And that's so wild that we can find such a rich resource in the women that we think are just the women we're seeing at the PTA.

1:12:54Lindsey Simcik:Summer is always a funny time because I want to enjoy the burgers at the barbecue. I don't know about you, the breakfast bagel before a beach day. That's my thing. The pasta salad at a friend's house. But I also want to make choices that support how I want to feel. I've realized I don't do well with the all or nothing approach anymore. That's just not me. That's why I've been loving Hero Bread. I was honestly shocked by how soft and fluffy and delicious everything is that they make. There's no stiff cardboard texture, just the bread, buns, tortillas, and bagels you actually crave. I've been using their tortillas for easy lunch wraps for myself, for my son.

1:13:35Lindsey Simcik:They're bagels when I need something quick and satisfying in the morning. And nutritionally, it's such an easy swap. Depending on the product, Hero has zero to five grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and 11 to 32 grams of fiber, which is unbelievable. They even have noodles with 32 grams of fiber and 12 grams of protein. I'm obsessed with the noodles. So is my son and husband. So Hero Bread is offering 10 % off your order. Go to hero.co and use code A30POD at checkout. That's code A30POD at H-E-R-O.co. So Upwork, I talk about Upwork with my clients all the freaking time. I was on the phone with one of my clients last night and I said, girl, you are no longer going to edit your podcast yourself.

1:14:17You are going to outsource with Upwork. This was her budget. She wanted to stay under a certain amount. So we had to find someone that would be a perfect fit for her. Upwork is really the one-stop platform where you can find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across everything from marketing and business operations to web development, design data, and so much more. So you can basically browse their profiles, look through their work, and even get help scoping for a role. I was needing to hire someone for Kajabi within our business to help us do Kajabi. And so I saw this little profile, said, oh, she seems like a great fit.

1:14:49We got on a call. She was incredible with Kajabi. She was so incredible. Whether you're a smaller business or if you're growing really quickly, their Business Plus gives you an access to the top 1 % talent on Upwork with AI-powered shortlisting that can match you with the right freelancer in under six hours. So this saves a lot of time. This is actually what I've been doing because it does take time to find people. It does take time to vet people and it's kind of a thing. But I want you guys to be outsourcing more so you can enjoy your life. You can do what you need to do and you can grow your business and still have time for freedom.

1:15:22And Upwork is that place to have that. At Upwork.com right now, you can post your job for free, what you're looking for, who you need to support you. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to grow your business. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com.

1:15:37Lindsey Simcik:And I would think that moms would be so much more willing and excited to help another mom. If they're saying, I think I'm ready to get back into the workforce, but I'm actually more interested in this. I'm like, yes. I feel like every time I jump in my various mom groups I'm in, there's just always that momentum of like, yes, how can we support? Yes, I think I know this person. Let me connect to you. There's just a willingness. there's not this sense of like competition that you might find in more professional networks or the politics of it it's just like no like I want to help you I want to support you um which was just so refreshing for me you know just in this new season of life and frankly and I'm sure a lot of people experience this I'm curious your experience but like I don't relate to my friends who don't have kids the same way.

1:16:30And it's okay.

1:16:31Lindsey Simcik:You know, I had to kind of, I had a moment and then quickly I was like, oh, it's all good. You know, like we still have our common threads and we still love each other and we're witnessing each other in these different seasons. But it's okay if I lean more into my mom friends right now because it feels supportive and nourishing and all of that. Did you have kind of that shedding and fall off? So my best friend from home doesn't have children. Yeah. We're a group of eight of us, I mentioned, right? We grew up together. And, you know, we probably did go through our ebbs and flows, but I held a different space for her, meaning I knew that she was valuable to me in a different way.

1:17:16And she's not the person I'm telling all my things about my kids to, right? I am conscious of that. And I think we as a group superconscious of that, of not making the entire dialogue about our marriages and our children. I think that she adds, like, you know, we go to different people for different things. And I know what I go to her for. That deep understanding, that deep knowing, the humor, the sort of like carefreeness. I think the friction will often come from the boundaries. Right? I think that, And I'm feeling it. And if she's listening, I'm just saying this to reiterate to her, it is hard, I know.

1:17:59Because when we go on a girls trip, she of course wants to make it four days. Yeah. You know, whereas the rest of us are saying, well, how can we get as much togetherness in? Into. Yeah, totally. You know, to be able to get home and like see our kids before bedtime. And that is, I would say that is the constant tug of war. But like we've talked about, I think that becomes your superpower and being able to advocate for your needs while still loving on the people you love.

1:18:27Lindsey Simcik:Yeah, that's been a, Krista, my co-host is one of my best friends and she's in a different season of her life. And yeah, it's just been different around like what I have capacity for and what I'm available for at this point in my life. And she's been wonderful and just, you know, witnessing that and supporting that. We also have the business relationship. So we have, you know, logistics where with the book tour and everything like that. And I'm thinking about how long am I going to be away from my kids? You know, it's just like the priorities are different, but I'm trying to be mindful of communicating as much as possible saying like, this is actually, I actually need like a few days to think about what's best.

1:19:09Lindsey Simcik:You know, I don't want to make a decision based on like me feeling emotional right now. Like I want to just sit on it. So just I find that over communicating with the people closest with you and these like little, you know, sticky moments has been helpful. But I think that's the beauty of friendship. You know, you're going to move through these different seasons. And I don't I now know that valuable friendships aren't always smooth. You know, they do bring up those moments of growth for each person and reflection. And it's such a vehicle for your own growth and growth together. So if I have a friendship that's like super smooth, I'm like, okay, that's a category over here, you know, but I know it's probably not my deepest.

1:19:54Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you say, I mean, I think that that was that scene in White Lotus that everyone has reacted to. I haven't seen it yet, but you can say, you can say, you can say, no, you can totally say. Well, it was a, you know, it was a moment at the sort of culmination of this very, like, we, you know, we were all witnessing what seemed like such a toxic friendship. But in the end, it was a, you know, a trio of women who we all say a lot of things behind each other. And it felt so toxic. And we're all watching it. And I think every woman watching it felt this, like, combination of guilt and fear of our existence in friendship.

1:20:28Sure. And then at the end, it was like there was this healing moment of just reflection of it can be both and. It can be so significant and have so much meaning because of time and love and like an underlying respect. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

1:20:46Lindsey Simcik:This has been amazing. Thank you so much for being here. The book is The Power Pause. It's out now. How can people find you, your work? Are there book clubs? I feel like moms are creating book clubs, but I'm not exactly sure. But I think this would be really powerful. Yeah, it is. You can follow me at Mother Untitled. You can subscribe to the newsletter, which I drop in every Sunday with a cheat sheet for the week ahead. There's so many free resources on Mother Untitled and I encourage women to use them. You can get books wherever you love to get books. And there is a book club guide because one of the best thing is on the site as well with like a fun playlist and, you know, all the Amazon things to buy to make it special and like a little activity to sort of get past your titles.

1:21:35But I do, I think one of the reasons why it's so powerful to do this in community and read it in community is because the last part of the book, I say like, if I do this work right, when Lila, my daughter grows up and someone says, was your mom a stay at home or working mom? She just won't have an answer for it. She won't know what that means. She'll just know I was whole. I cared about a lot of different things. I worked done things of meaning, but I was there. And I think that's the world we want to move women to is that we are all more alike than we're different. Yeah.

1:22:08Lindsey Simcik:Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you on the next one. Bye. Thank you so much, Neha, for being here. You can get the book, The Power of Paws, now. And you can get more resources at motheruntitled.com and motheruntitled on Instagram. And thank you all for listening, for subscribing to Almost 30. We also have a clip show, Morning Microdose that you can listen to and just get a little dose of almost 35 days a week. This is kind of like the alternate start to your day. Instead of like scrolling on your phone, you can pop on a Morning Microdose episode, get a little dose of inspiration.

1:22:42Lindsey Simcik:I love Morning Microdose. It's just a classic. Almost30.com, Almost30 Podcast on socials. We are on YouTube, baby. We've got some video on YouTube for y 'all to kind of cruise and see our faces this whole time. Our bodies. Our bodies and our faces and judge us. Love you. We will see you soon. Bye. later