793. Are Women Too Successful for Love? The Truth Behind The Modern Dating Crisis

23:47I have had the same question. So the person who's really done the best research on this is Richard Reeves. And then Scott Galloway has popularized a lot of the stuff from Richard Reeves' work. And I think they're both putting amazing stuff out there. So I kind of had the same feeling and the same question that you're asking because Scott Galloway says things like, oh, schools are so feminized now. And so women are doing so much better in school. But I'm like, who were schools built for? They were built for men and they haven't really changed. So I think there is like some tension there and some confusion.

24:17Some of the stuff that Scott talks about is lack of male role models. And so like increasingly a lot of men in the US, in the UK, around the world are growing up without a male role model in the home. And so it's not clear to them, you know, how to show up as a man, how to show up as a respectful man. And Scott talks about how there's way fewer male teachers. And so it feels like in a lot of ways men are not being taught by other men in society how to be men. And we think of men as being stronger. But actually the research shows that in many ways they're sort of more delicate than women. So there's research on if women grow up in a single parent household versus men, the women have like pretty similar outcomes versus the men have worse outcomes.

25:05And similar things in foster care that the men in foster care tend to do much worse. And so there's this idea that some children are like dandelions and any environment that they grow up in, they're going to do decently well. And some kids are like orchids. They really need a particular amount of sunlight and nurturing and water. And some of the research shows that young men are actually more similar to orchids in this environment where they do need a particular environment in order to thrive. And so I think we have many different things that are happening. One really good set of data on this is this new report called the Lost Boys Report that just came out in the UK in March.

25:43And it's showing that boys 16 through 24 are really falling behind. and they said that one in seven of these young men are neat, which is not in education, employment, or training. And so these are people who are really like falling out of society. And so what's really on my mind is if we're at one in seven now, how does that project out to the future? And women who already say there's not enough good guys or the guys I go out with want free therapy and they're not kind of at the same level I am and they're not able to be a partner then what's going to happen when like this generation of men that's even falling more behind is going to be those women's potential partners.

26:24Lindsey Simcik:Yeah. Something you said just made me kind of think for a moment, the education piece where schools were built for men. And I just, I obviously know that is true, but I'm wondering about the structure of school and how it might not for men in particular be the way in which they're built to learn. So just having a young boy now, like just kind of very in the beginning stages of learning about this, but how they learn through play and using their bodies and movement and roughhousing. And I'm just thinking about our modern society and how, you know, men now I don't think are that much, like they're not encouraged to use their hands, use their physical bodies.

27:11Lindsey Simcik:Like maybe they go to the gym. Okay. Maybe they get a pump in with their friends, but like, there's not this like broader sense of like using their bodies to learn, to grow, to be in community. And I think that's part of like purpose building in a way. We're so on our phones, we're at desks, we're kind of in these little squares where, I don't know, almost like men are muted in a way in this modern society. So I'm just curious what you think about that. Yeah. So first of all, I'll just say I'm not a historian, so I don't have like expertise in all of this. And I more come at this from the dating perspective, but I can give kind of my non-expert view on all of this, which is that I feel like the education system is going to have to change a lot in the next few decades.

27:56Like I think with AI, like so many of the jobs that are taught, so many of the jobs that are taught in college, like those jobs may not exist or they may not exist in the same way. And it feels like schools just haven't really been updated in many years. Like they still have the system like, you know, dating back to raising good factory workers where it's like when the bell rings, you move to the next class. And so I don't know how to solve this, but I definitely feel like education in general is ripe for disruption. There's a school that I spoke to a young woman at and it's called the Alpha School and it's in Austin.

28:32and they basically have a few hours in the morning of education and a lot of it happens like self-paced and apparently it's like backed up by AI. And then they spend a lot of the rest of the day doing practical skills or becoming an expert in a topic. And so like one of the things to graduate from this high school is you have to be able to build this piece of IKEA furniture. And there's like other kind of life skill stuff that they teach there. And I think that's really cool because it just feels like most people that graduate from high school feel like they're missing a lot of key skills and they're probably missing a lot of key skills for what the economy is about to become with AI.

29:09Lindsey Simcik:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting because I hear everything you're saying, but I'm still kind of missing where is it that the fathers are not giving the boys like, because what is actually happening where the boys are not being able to are not being provided with the environment where they're growing those skills that are in support of the type of relationship templates that I think we're stepping into. And I think women are sort of leading the way. And I do think women need to take responsibility for sort of the over-functioning they do in relationships, sort of always moving the goalpost, you know what I mean, type of thing where they, I think what I've also come to find too, is that women are also expecting men to be like women, where we're expecting them to hold us and relate to us in the same way women are.

29:52So what do you see in that? Yeah. No, I totally hear your question. I wish I had more expertise in that. I feel like I'm not the expert in the like, how did we get here from the boys thing? I more have the expertise in dating. And so what I can say around that is one thing that I'm hearing about a lot is that men were taught that they needed to be the provider. And then now women are saying, I can also be the provider and I can make, you know, 50, 50 in our relationship or a little bit more than you. So what else are you bringing to the table? And so emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating.

30:25And the thing is, if you were a guy who was not taught that and you don't have those skills, then you're not really ready to show up in that way. And so I think women are saying, I need more from you. You can't just be like the strong silent type that comes home and has a whiskey and I've prepared you dinner. What else are you bringing to the table? But the guys don't have these skills. And I feel like our society hasn't really taught them that. So there's all this research around how even starting at a young age, like when kids are three, parents talk to their girls with more emotional language than boys.

30:58We have all this stuff like boys don't cry. I think that we've sort of taught men that there's really only one way to be a man, that it's to be strong and it's to be silent and it's to not share your feelings. And then all of a sudden we've kind of changed what we want from them, but they haven't been taught that. And then going back to what I said, when they are vulnerable, we sort of shame them for it. And so I feel like we're just so early on in this conversation, figuring out how should we be raising men differently? And for the men who are already raised, how can we make them better partners for the women who are looking for them?

31:35And so I think that there's work for both sides to do. So I think for women, it's also changing expectations. So I don't think that it's about settling. Women hate that word. In my coaching, that's always like the S word. But I had dinner with a friend this week who she works in Hollywood. She makes a good living. And she met this guy, and he makes about a quarter of what she makes. But he's so steady. He's so great. He's a great dad to their dog. He's going to be a great dad to their future kids. And she's like, I can afford my lifestyle and I want him to be a part of it and I'm okay with him making less.

32:11But a lot of women I talk to don't feel that way. They want the guy to pay for the first date. They want the guy to make as much or more than they do. So I feel like if women want to continue to succeed, which I think they do, then they also might say it's less important that the guy be the solo provider or make as much as me. And then from the male perspective, I think there's a lot of work to do to catch up. I mean, listen to some podcasts about dating, go to therapy. My husband's in a men's group. I think that that is an amazing way for men to kind of help each other get stronger and to have a safe place to be angry and to be sad and to say like, this is really hard and I feel like I am useless and just have people kind of there to support you as well in a masculine way.

32:57And so I think that we are where we are right now and things feel hard, but I think that if we change our expectations of what we want and what the other person can give us, I do feel like we can find our way back to each other.

33:09Lindsey Simcik:Yeah.

33:14Lindsey Simcik:As we move into summer, I always want my skin to feel healthy, nourished, and glowy. I'm a glow girl. I want it shiny. I want a glazed donut. But I realized that glow doesn't come from chasing new products every single week. It comes from consistency. So lately I've been using Naturium and their Glow Gutter Bundle. Y 'all, I have to recommend this to you because it honestly made my body care routine feel like such a luxury. Okay. The multi-oil body wash, I put it in my shower. It transforms from this rich oil into a soft lather that is just incredible for your skin. The body scrub, y 'all, it leaves my skin radiant, smooth, beautiful.

33:51Lindsey Simcik:And the body oil paired with the body butter gives that hydrated, luminous look that's perfect for summer. I show off my belly and it's just like nice and glowy and amazing. So Naturium believes skincare should be clinically effective, skin compatible, and affordable. It's luxury you can use every single day and that's what creates real consistency. I'm excited for you. So give your skin the affordable, luxurious glow up it deserves. Go to naturium.com slash almost 30 for 10 % off your first purchase. That's naturium.com slash almost 30. So your girls at the farmer's market on Saturdays, every once in a while with my friends, I'm shopping at the local spots.

34:28When I was in Europe, I was shopping at these local markets. And one of the things I was noticing is I was so exceptionally, eternally grateful that I could just buy with a tap of my phone from these local vendors in these local markets. I got this crystal necklace that I needed and I got to just do a little tap tap on square and make it super easy for myself. So Square is the support for today's episode. It's the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. I always just notice that everything flows when people use Square. The checkout with Square is seamless. The staff isn't stressed.

35:01And they're actually able to connect with you because they're not fumbling with different systems. And I just love that it brings payments, point of sales, online orders, inventory, staffing, and more together in one place. So these local business owners can spend less time managing technology and more time doing what they love. And whether you're just getting started with growing your business, Square truly grows with you. It helps you run your business more smoothly, bringing payments, operations and insights in together in one place. So you're ready for whatever's next. And right now, listeners can get up to$200 off Square hardware when you sign up for square.com slash go slash almost 30.

35:37That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash go slash almost 30 to get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do.

35:47Lindsey Simcik:Do you feel like, you know, the women who are really successful and they find men that they feel compatible with, but that like money piece is just different than what they had expected, say they're making a quarter of what they make. Like, do you think the desire for that part of that is the need for when they do say have children or kind of want to flow in and out of their life where it's like, there's going to be a season of my life where I'm not going to be going as hard because I'm, you know, pregnant or having kids or whatever. Like just that cyclical nature of life and wanting kind of the stability, the masculine stability to like hold that.

36:30Lindsey Simcik:Do you feel like that's kind of part of it? That feels totally valid to me. And it's like, I totally understand why somebody would want to have a partner who makes as much or more than they do. It's like, life is hard. Things are expensive. There's no safety net. Like, I think it's completely reasonable to want to have as much money or resources as possible, especially pre-kids. And I think that that's a valid concern. But for women who are saying, I can't find a partner and they also have that deal breaker, I would say to them at the end of the day, like, what is more important to you? Would you rather have no partner and not have kids with someone or have a partner that makes less than you?

37:09And so I think it's like in an ideal world, like I totally understand why everyone would want as many resources as possible to have like an easier life. And I think that's, that's completely valid. But I think if we're at a stage now where this hypergum is dating somebody who is, you know, as much or greater than you in terms of some of these financial markers or social status, if it's not possible for a lot of people to find hypergamous mates, then I think people have to make some compromises. So I think the instinct is valid. I get it. I'm not like, why would you want more money? Everything, you know, of course you would.

37:42But if you really want to find partnership and you do make a good living, then is that an area where you can compromise? And can Can you instead double down on things that really matter like, you know, emotional intelligence or the person's loyalty or kindness or the fact that they would be a great husband or father? And so can we start to separate out some of those traits from just ability to be a provider? I'm going to do two questions, but you're a genius. So I know you'll get them. The first one is I'm curious how men feel about that sentiment when you share it. So it's like telling the women not to settle, but negotiate what they're looking for.

38:21If men feel a type of way, if they feel offended, if they feel like, how do they feel having heard that? Wait, sorry, when they feel which way? So basically, do men feel offended when you're like telling women, like you should negotiate what you want and you should lower the standards of what you want? Do they feel a type of way? Yeah. I mean, I think that these conversations are very heated for people. Like ever since I've started talking about this topic, I've gotten more trolling than I've ever gotten before. And that's just like new for me because I feel like, you know, for the last however many years, I've just been like talking about dating.

38:49But suddenly when you start talking about gender or you start talking about like men needing to step up, like I'm just getting horrific trolling. And so I'm definitely sort of poking the bear here. And I'm going to assume that these trolls are men based on what I'm hearing. But I do think that this is like a really hard conversation. I think talking about gender in general is hard. In my first book, I barely talked about gender at all. I only had one section and it was basically like, if you're a woman who wants to give birth to your own biological children, the fertility clock is real and you know, you have to plan in this way.

39:25But otherwise I was like, here's the psychological things that are impacting why you're single. Whereas now I'm like, I truly do see polarization of men and women. So men and women, well, traditionally people voted along racial lines, right? And then now a lot of people are voting along gender lines. So in the last election, you saw way more women voting for Kamala and way more men voting for Trump. When it comes to going to church, all of a sudden for the first time in American history, more men than women are going to church. Think about the podcast, right? Like how many men are listening to Almost 30 versus how many women are listening to Theo Vaughn or, you know, some of these other shows.

40:06And I just think that if you have people that are moving farther and farther apart, then when it comes to dating and mating, you just have a wider chasm to overcome.

40:19Lindsey Simcik:Yeah. That's beautiful. And then the second, and that all makes so much sense and I'm grateful that you're bringing this conversation. And I can even feel myself having, it is interesting because I can feel myself having my own little moment with it where I'm like, well, why aren't the men, you know, because I feel like, I think there's an aspect of me as a woman that feels like by my own, maybe unconscious choosing, I'm doing the most where I'm like, I'm doing, I'm making them up. You know, there's that part of women that does a lot that can over-function that then feels like they need to be met in that way.

40:50But my second question I wanted to ask was more so related to if we're working with women on not negotiating or settling, but sort of just kind of, um, redefining what their values are and what they're looking for. How do you support them in going about that? Yeah. I think that that is like really the essential question probably for our conversation, if your audience is a lot of women, which is like, I just have so much empathy for these women and I'm married, but I'm always talking to women who are single and looking for love. And that's like what motivates me to do this work is that I'm really like, what happens to these amazing women who have done everything?

41:24They were great students. They worked hard. They got good grades. They got a good job. They make money. They support their parents, they work out, they just really have tried everything. And then they're like, I just can't find my match. And so then I feel like, well, what can I do to invest in men so that there are more matches for them? And so it's like, I'm sort of talking about helping men level up, but like selfishly, a lot of my desire is to have just more great men for the great women that I know. And that happens to me everywhere I go. People are like, oh, I know so many great women. Do you know anyone for this?

41:56I'm like, no, I have the same problem. So we're like all looking for these great men. And not that there are none, like I work with plenty of great men, but it just does feel like something's off. And so kind of getting more specific to your question, I think that for them, you know, when I work with people in a coaching capacity, we also talk about, we often talk about like what matters for you and what are your goals. And so for that woman on an individual level, I'd say like, really, what are you looking for? Like how important is marriage to you? How important is long-term partnership? How important are kids?

42:28What are the qualities you're really looking for. And so I'd help them figure out separate from money, like what really matters to them. And then maybe there's something where it's like humor is so important. Like humor is how we deal with hard moments. Humor gets you through or intelligence, kindness, compassion, like getting along with your family. And can we sort of raise those on their list so that when they're evaluating potential partners, they can still care about money. They can still want someone who can help support the family, but can we help in their mind see those things as even more important so that if they meet someone who makes less than them, they're seeing them as the whole package and that we're kind of deprogramming them from, you know, find the richest husband or the six, five finance blue eyes guy.

43:14And so, you know, I think this conversation is hard because people don't like compromising. They don't like settling. They don't like being told like, well, other people get this, but you can't. But at the end of the day, if you're single and you want partnership, like I want to be pragmatic about how can we make that happen.

43:29Lindsey Simcik:A lot of people when they're dating, they have a list of qualities or whether it's surface level or deeper that they want in a person that they want to date. I guess what is the benefit to having a list? What is the detriment to having a list? How can that kind of lead you down a path that could potentially be a little funky and distorted. I was dating for a long time and I feel like my list changed over the years from a bit more like surface level things to like more feeling, like how I want it to feel. So what would you say about that? Yeah. I love what you just said about how your list changed over time.

44:12So through the work that I do, I often have people who come to my office or zoom in with me and they're like, I know exactly what I want. I just need your help finding them. And for them, they're so clear that they've been dating for a while so they know what they want. I actually have the opposite view, which is sometimes when you've been dating for a while, this so-called type that you're going after isn't actually the type that's going to serve you. And the work I want to do with them is not locating the five foot seven skinny redhead tennis player, but it's, you know, finding a woman who is really going to fit into their lives and, you know, help them create the world that they want.

44:47And so I often tell people, you know, you think you know what you want, but you don't. And so for people's lists, I want them to take off some of those superficial qualities like height. I feel like height kind of goes back to the money conversation. It's like, am I saying that height doesn't matter? Am I saying that people are equally attracted to people of all heights? No, like these are real things. This is part of like the reality of dating. But what I'm saying is I think that we've given undue importance to them. So one of the statistics that I love to share is that a lot of women set their height filter at six feet.

45:18And then they are actually blocking off 86 % of men in the US who are under six feet. So if you only can see 14 % of men based on your height filters, and then you walk around and you give me your phone and you say, where's my husband, Logan? Where is he? It's like, well, he's not even allowed like into your phone. You're like, your bouncers on your app are like blocking him. And so I feel like the same thing kind of goes back to the money conversation. So it's like you can say like I'm more attracted to people who are taller. But once you start setting your filter at six feet, you're missing out on like great guys who are 5 '10", 5 '11", 5 '11 and a half.

45:54Are you really telling me that you couldn't make a relationship work with them?

45:57Lindsey Simcik:And I think the height thing is so interesting even though it seems a little trivial. But like when I started to open my aperture to men who were like a little bit shorter than my like six foot, you know, standard, which is probably accurate where it was. I was like, dang, there is like a quality to these men who are like, say, 5 '10", 5 '11", who like, you know, I could wear heels with and be the same height that like there's a difference in confidence and the way they embody themselves. Like that actually I was attracted to over like someone who's like 6 '5", like just so full, you know, that's a generalization.

46:35Lindsey Simcik:But I was like, wow, like there's aspects to the character and the personality that I was missing out on. Yeah. And I love how you said open the aperture. I think that that's a great way to say it. And it's like, as I said, people don't like this idea of settling. So how can we repackage this to just say like, you don't know what you're missing out on. And so if you say, I can only date someone who works in one of these industries. Well, what about the great guy who doesn't work in those industries? I can only date someone of this height. If you met a guy at a bar and you talked for the whole night and he stood up and he was 5 '9".

47:06Would you really not give him your number? And I think that we've all just become a little black and white in this stuff. And it's like, just because you can set a filter on an app to say, this is the height that I would like, you know, I don't think people understand the implications of that, which is like, you're really filtering out a lot of potential partners. And so as people get older, they often feel like, well, I'm closer to knowing what I want, but I feel like in a way they get more stubborn and more close-minded and they close the aperture. So a lot of the work I do with them is to say, let's go through your relationship history.

47:38Let's talk about the guy that you dated in college where it wasn't the right time, but he was really great. What side of you did he bring out? How did you feel around him? How did he fit into your family? Kind of helping people see that marriage is not hiring someone for a job where they have to have a certain set of resume skills. It's truly who do you want to sit with on a Tuesday night? Who do you want to raise kids with and talk about hard things with? And how does somebody make you feel? And so I think if we move away from the checklist, move away from the resume, move away from the job interviews to do I feel like my best self around you, that is just a completely different way to date.

48:17It's beautiful. In my dating process, I don't have a list anymore. And it's been just liberating to kind of open, like she said, the aperture of like who I'm calling in and who I'm experiencing and just sort of see what my type is. Because I also think we're kind of programmed into a type, especially I grew up in a small town in Ohio. So kind of the people that you are around just became like a specific type. When we talk about online dating and kind of that, putting the filters on, what would you suggest for women to how they can move about online dating if they're on apps like Hinge? How can they support themselves in not going off the resume or the list on an app?

48:54Yeah. So actually the best way to really invest in your dating and the profiles you're looking at is to invest in your profile itself. And so your profile is going to really lead the conversation. And so I'll give you some of the key tips for like the best hinge profile. So you want to have a really clear picture of yourself. I call it a headshot. It doesn't have to be a professional headshot. It just shows, here's what I look like. You don't have to do any guessing games. There's no filters, no sunglasses. Then you want to have a variety of pictures. So one with you doing an activity that you love, one with friends and family, and one that's a full body shot.

49:30And then things you want to avoid are any photos that have smoky in them, gym selfies don't perform well, and also those photos, I call them Where's Waldo ones, where it's like 10 kind of bachelorette girls and you're like, which blonde in a row is she? Those are just frustrating to people. And then Hinge has these prompts, which are these icebreakers. and the best thing to do is to really create a hook where someone can respond to it. So you might say, I love podcasts. I'm always listening to one. What's your favorite podcast? And by asking a question, it makes it so easy for someone to respond to that because they can just say, oh, I love this podcast.

50:06Have you heard of it? What are your favorites? So it's like making the job easier for other people by setting them up. So one way of doing a hook is to do a question. I also really like hot takes. So, you know, in San Francisco where I live, I might say Delfina has the best pizza. And then somebody will write back flour or water or bust, something like that. And so I love the idea of like putting out a strong statement and then somebody can like respond to it. And then I feel like that also can lead to a fun date because I had a friend who did this in New York around donuts. And then they like went on like a donut tour for their first date.

50:38So those are ways to really set other people up for success in talking to you. One of the, another thing I would teach people is that there's things that you can learn about somebody from an app and things that you just have to meet them in person to learn. So for example, in my dating class, I talk a lot about attachment theory and then people say like, okay, this is great. How do I find a secure guy on an app? And I'm like, you won't know from his profile if he's secure or not. And even if he puts securely attached, I'm like, like, is he? Like, do we even Can you just like proclaim that? And so I think having a list of things that you need to just find out in person can take some of the pressure off.

51:15So it's like what you can learn from an app is like what they look like, where they live, maybe what they're into. You can text a little or jump on the phone to see if you have banter, but most of the hard stuff, just you need to get on a date. And I think people need to get on these dates faster than they think. So at Hinge, we found that after three days of messaging on the app is actually the right amount of time to set up a date. And so it can be really tempting to be like, I need to know more about them. I need to vet them. I need to talk to them for weeks. It's like, certainly like I want to see if you have a connection, but get to the date sooner.

51:47And then in person, find out a lot of this stuff. Like how do you feel around them? Do you have chemistry? Are you curious about them? And I actually have this list called the post date eight, and it's eight questions to ask yourself after a date that help you go from the really evaluative mindset, are you good enough for me, to really the experiential mindset, do I like being around you? And so these are questions like, how did I feel in my body around you? Did I feel relaxed? Did I feel stiff? Did I feel captivated or bored? Did you make me laugh? Did I feel attractive in your presence? And you're sort of training your brain not to think what's their job, who's their family, but really training your brain to see when I'm with them, how do I feel?

52:37Lindsey Simcik:As we move into summer, I always want my skin to feel healthy, nourished, and glowy. I'm a glow girl. I want it shiny. I want a glazed donut. But I realized that glow doesn't come from chasing new products every single week. It comes from consistency. So lately I've been using Naturium and their glow gutter bundle. Y 'all, I have to recommend this to you because it honestly made my body care routine feel like such a luxury. Okay. The multi-oil body wash, I put it in my shower. It transforms from this rich oil into a soft lather that is just incredible for your skin. The body scrub, y 'all, it leaves my skin radiant, smooth, beautiful.

53:14Lindsey Simcik:And the body oil paired with the body butter gives that hydrated, luminous look that's perfect for summer. I show off my belly and it's just like nice and glowy and amazing. So Naturium believes skincare should be clinically effective, skin compatible, and affordable. It's luxury you can use every single day and that's what creates real consistency. I'm excited for you. So give your skin the affordable, luxurious glow up it deserves. Go to naturium.com slash almost 30 for 10 % off your first purchase. That's naturium.com slash almost 30. So your girls at the farmer's market on Saturdays, every once in a while with my friends, I'm shopping at the local spots.

53:51When I was in Europe, I was shopping at these local markets. And one of the thing I was noticing is I was so exceptionally eternally grateful that I could just buy with a tap of my phone from these local vendors in these local markets. I got this crystal necklace that I needed and I got to just do a little tap tap on square and make it super easy for myself. So Square is the support for today's episode. It's the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. I always just noticed that everything flows when people use Square. The checkout with Square is seamless, the staff isn't stressed, and they're actually able to connect with you because they're not fumbling with different systems.

54:29And I just love that it brings payments, point of sales, online orders, inventory, staffing, and more together in one place. So these local business owners can spend less time managing technology and more time doing what they love. And whether you're just getting started with growing your business, Square truly grows with you. It helps you run your business more smoothly, bringing payments, operations, and insights in together in one place. So you're ready for whatever's next. And right now, listeners can get up to$200 off Square hardware when you sign up for square.com slash go slash almost 30.

55:00That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash go slash almost 30 to get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do.

55:09Lindsey Simcik:I want to talk about the like first date experience because I think some people will say, I'm going to know on the first date. Other people are like, I don't know. Some people will say, I didn't feel the spark on the first date. And I've had the spark and I've learned the hard way what that means. But I would love to talk about that experience and kind of what you coach people through to like be aware of and also like when to give it a second date and keep going. Yeah, that's something I'm really passionate about. It's kind of become my unofficial motto is fuck the spark. And what I found was that I was coaching so many people and they would go on these good dates and they would have a good time and then they'd say, I'm just not going to see him again.

55:50I would say, why? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark. And I think that this is something in our culture around instant gratification, this feeling of if I'm hungry, I can have Thai food here in 20 minutes. If I want to watch a movie from the 80s, I can get it on Netflix immediately. And we just want things to be easy and we want them to be instant. So when we go on a date, we're like, if I didn't feel it right away, why would I give it more time? And I just don't think that that's the right way to date. And I love this idea that I've done with my husband who I've been with for 10 years and I've coached my clients on, which is really going after the slow burn.

56:25And so it's like, if you're only chasing the super charismatic six, five guys, then you're missing out on some other people who may not be as sparky when you first meet them, but would make great long-term partners. And so many people, they have the spark and it starts out really hot and heavy. And then over time it gets worse. And they have this pattern over and over again. And I'm like, maybe it's that you're focusing so much on the spark. You're ignoring other red flags. You're ignoring other character flaws. If you actually focus on someone who you get to know slowly over time and they grow on you, you might find the love of your life and maybe he wasn't that sparky.

57:04And so a slow burn, if someone was tracking sort of how they're feeling in their body with a slow burn, is the personal work that, you know, we'll say a woman in this case, is the personal work that she would have to do would be to continue to check in and just kind of not negotiate, but like evaluate sort of, because I think there is a lot of inner work if you're going to be someone that used to like sparks and you're doing slow burn. So what kind of conversations can she be having with herself? Yeah. So I think this is a great opportunity to journal. And I think the post-date eight is a fun activity that people can do after each date to see how things change over time.

57:36So for us with a slow burn person, you might go on an initial date with them and be like, am I the most attracted to them of everyone I've ever been with? No. But like, is there something there that I'm curious to learn more about? Then after the second date, the third date, you keep feeling like they're growing on me. Oh, when they talked about their family, their face really lit up. When they talked about their work, I saw how passionate they are. And like, it's really impressive that they have this career that they've created themselves, whatever it is. And so I think if you have zero attraction, you're not going to get from zero to like enough to want to be with someone.

58:06But if you have some attraction, I think that you can train yourself to see that and then have that grow over time. Versus if you only go after the people where you immediately feel that spark, you're really going to miss out. And so I have this idea of the three myths of the spark. So the first one is that if you don't feel the spark, then it'll never grow. And that's not true. A lot of people have the spark grow over time. And that's why people end up with someone in their class or someone who lives in the same apartment building, someone who they work with because they see them over time and it builds.

58:38The second myth is that if you have the spark, it's a good thing. And that's also not true. A lot of people give off the spark because they're really narcissistic or they - Trauma bond. Yes. Or they play hot and cold. So it's like, you know, you're feeling like the chemistry and the butterflies, but where you're actually feeling is the anxiety of not knowing if they're interested or not. And that can really drive you. Like I think about guys that I dated before my husband and I would like go on runs and just like think about them nonstop. It was like, I didn't need to listen to music because like I had like the drumbeat of their their thoughts and their name in my head.

59:13And it's like, at the time I was like, this is incredible. This is a crush. This is love. It's like, no, that was their - You're sprinting at a 10. You're like, this is amazing. Right. Totally. It was like, they were hot and cold with me. They were avoidant and it was like triggering me. But like, to me, I was like, oh, this is like so juicy. And so it's like, I like what you said. I do think people need to retrain them. And so I think the work for people can also be saying, wow, I'm really having that anxious moment here. I'm really in it. I really feel distracted. Is this because I'm just so into them and my heart is beating or is this because they're not clear about their intentions and it's triggering something in me?

59:50And I think that the work is to, instead of running towards the red flags because you have that crush energy, actually running towards the green flags of someone who says, I really like you. I'm really interested in you. I want to get to know you more. Like this was a great first date. Let's hang out again. And And like, you might not be used to that because you're used to people who pull away and that's your definition of love. But what would it look like for you to really pursue someone who's interested in you and who puts in the hard work? I think that's a huge thing too is, you know, chemistry can happen and you can meet someone and have that chemistry because the trauma bonds are, you know, physical, but it's like commitment.

1:00:29Like when a man is committed and they actually do what they say and they follow through and they actually show up as such a different experience than just having that attraction that I think I've had to metabolize to. And I know a lot of women in our community have had to metabolize to. I'm curious if men experience the spark in the same way. Have you read any differences? Is there any research around that? Yeah, I definitely hear about the spark from men and women. And that's definitely where men are like, I'll know it when I see it, or they expect a certain feeling on the first date. And I've had guys who say, I knew from the first second that I met my wife that I was going to marry her.

1:01:04but the data shows that only 11 % of people said they feel love at first sight. So that's really why I try to put this out there to say that the spark can grow over time. And so we went through all the myths, right? So the first one is the spark can grow. The second one is, or the first one is that if you don't feel it, it can't grow and know it can. The second one is if you feel it must be a good thing. And the third one is if you have it, then the relationship is viable. And the truth is a lot of relationships start with it and then they fizzle out. And so I think the work for people is to really train themselves.

1:01:37And so kind of going back to your question about men versus women, there's this idea of the anxious avoidant loop. You know, you're familiar with it, but for your audience who's not, it's that if you're anxious, your definition of love is that you're constantly going to be chasing someone, they're going to be pulling away, and that you have to kind of prove your value or keep yourself top of mind for them. And if you're avoidant, it's that somebody is going to smother you and take away your independence. So you need to pull away. And even though 50 % of the population is secure, a lot of those secure people are already in relationships.

1:02:09So the dating pool is a lot of anxious and avoidant people dating each other and they reinforce these patterns, right? So I'm anxious. I chase after you, you're avoidant and you feel smothered by me. And then we date back and forth. And for a lot of people, and I'm talking about myself, it was really when we broke out of this anxious avoidant loop and dated someone insecure that we realized how different it could be. So if you've only ever tasted chocolate and you don't know that there's vanilla, you're just going to say everything is chocolate. But dating a secure person is like going to this different flavor.

1:02:41And so with my husband, when we met, I remember the first time we got into a fight over text, I was just like blowing his phone up, so angry, like pecking away, so mad at him. And then instead of just feeding into that pattern with me, he's like, oh, it sounds like you're really upset. We should talk about this in person. And it was like an explosion because it was like I was wired a certain way. And then he, that was the beginning of rewiring. And like, I think it's because like, he's a great guy and his mom's a therapist and he does have high emotional intelligence. But it was like, if you just look at that as an example, it's like, I would have kept going my whole life fighting that way until he was like, there's this different way to fight where we just like meet up in person, probably when you've cooled down and you can express, excuse me, you can express yourself and I can express myself.

1:03:28And then with dating, it's like, if you've always chased the spark and then those people disappoint you, well, there is another way. And maybe it won't feel as exciting in the beginning, but it'll lead to more authentic relationships. It'll lead to higher integrity people. You won't just be looking for the person where like the trailer of the movie is so good. It's like, well, you're not marrying the trailer, like you're marrying the whole movie. So like it better be good like just after the beginning.

1:03:53Lindsey Simcik:Yeah. I remember just having to like tune my nervous system where I'm like my nervous system was so used to the up and down and the like, is he going to text me? And just kind of this unpredictability to predictability and stability and peace with my now husband. And I was like, at first I clocked that as boring. Totally. And I was like, I don't know if this is it. And then I realized as that was the stability and structure I needed in order to go deeper, you know, and to create actual like real excitement and thrill and relationship that was healthy rather than unhealthy. How did you do that?

1:04:31Lindsey Simcik:How did I do that? So for anyone listening where they're like, okay, it feels boring, but I'm going to stick with it. Then how do I transition to creating excitement in the relationship now that we have that? Yeah. So much of it was like kind of an in the moment clocking like in my body where I would have to take a moment and be like, okay, so we're in his living room on a Saturday. We're in the same room. He's reading a book. I'm writing something or reading a book. This feels pretty simple, mundane, peaceful. I was someone who was like, let's plan a trip. Let's do a staycation. Let's do something exciting.

1:05:09Lindsey Simcik:Let's walk in Central Park. He's like, being in the same room with you, even though we're not like saying anything to each other is like, I love this. Like, this is amazing. And I'm like, what part of me wants to like just stimulate us to show that we're in this like amazing relationship. And I had to, it was a training for me to be like, what aspects of our relationship are showing me and proving to me that it is safe and deep and exciting and helping me to grow. Because that was like the next level of me. It was like the future me calling me forward. Like that is what we've always wanted. That's not what you saw necessarily growing up, but like that's what we have really wanted and that's what he's providing.

1:05:53Lindsey Simcik:And so it was just like a slow retraining. And I remember we were long distance for a while. And when we would have our like weekends together or whatever, I would like want to plan all these things and make it the best thing ever. And he would always get a little uncomfortable because he's just like, I feel like you're putting a lot of pressure on these moments that like we're actually in the same place. He's like, I hope that we like have our whole lives together. You know, we're going to do a lot of exciting things. He's like, but it's like these mundane moments that like are special, you know, and we get to like really kind of settle in together and not be so stimulated by like external things validating our relationship.

1:06:33Yeah. I love so much of what you said. I think it's just, I just want to underline it for people that a lot of times when someone is secure, we code it as boring because when they are predictable and they're reliable and they do what they say they will, it doesn't give us that same response and thrill and anxiety coded as butterflies that we get from people who are less reliable. And so if you spent your whole life chasing that high, and that's your definition of love, of course, this other thing is going to feel really different. And so I think just acknowledging that moment and for people who want to make that transition, knowing it's going to feel a little uncomfortable in the position in the beginning because it's not what you're used to.

1:07:14And then I also really love what your husband said about just, you know, maybe from a place of anxiety, you were trying to like fill these weekends or like, you know, maybe you felt like I want to be the fun girlfriend or like if we don't live in the same city, then when we're together, it has to be epic. It seems like his version of it was we're seeing if we're a good couple and if we should be together. So why don't we actually just spend quality time just the two of us and do life and see, do we get together? Do we do well together when there's no external stimuli? And I think it's so interesting.

1:07:45It's like a lot of times on people's dating app profiles, they'll say, I'm a great plus one to a wedding because of this. And it's like, yeah, maybe you are really fun at karaoke or you are really charming with somebody's parents. But at the end of the day, like that's not what you're marrying someone for. You're marrying them for like the Tuesday night ordering food, like the Sunday morning going to the park with your kid. And so if you've always filled your life with all of these other exciting things that when it's just the two of you, you may not even know each other. And so I think, you know, it sounds like your husband's very wise.

1:08:16Yeah, in a lot of ways.

1:08:21So your girl's at the farmer's market on Saturdays, every once in a while with my friends. I'm shopping at the local spots. When I was in Europe, I was shopping at these local markets. And one of the things I was noticing is I was so exceptionally, eternally grateful that I could just buy with a tap of my phone from these local vendors in these local markets. I got this crystal necklace that I needed and I got to just do a little tap tap on Square and make it super easy for myself. So Square is the support for today's episode. It's the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites.

1:08:53I always just notice that everything flows when people use Square. The checkout with Square is seamless, the staff isn't stressed, and they're actually able to connect with you because they're not fumbling with different systems. And I just love that it brings payments, point of sales, online orders, inventory, staffing, and more together in one place. So these local business owners can spend less time managing technology and more time doing what they love and whether you're just getting started with growing your business square truly grows with you it helps you run your business more smoothly bringing payments operations and insights in together in one place so you're ready for whatever's next and right now listeners can get up to 200 off square hardware when you sign up for square.com slash go slash almost 30.

1:09:36that's sq u a r e.com slash go slash almost 30 to get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do. BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys have heard us talk about BetterHelp for a long time, but one thing we don't always talk about is just how many people genuinely love the experience. So if you're curious about therapy and you want to support yourself in your life, I highly suggest using BetterHelp. It just kind of breaks down the barrier of cost, of time, of availability. You can chat with your therapist on text. You can get in sessions super easily.

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1:11:04Lindsey Simcik:I would love to talk about just best practices when you're dating, especially when it comes to communication. I think we'll probably talk about attachment styles a little bit, but how much texting? Is too much texting not enough? How soon should you text someone after the first date? because I think, you know, with someone that's anxiously attached, it's like, I think the standard is so high of like, why didn't they text me an hour after? But then there's like, there's value in space and breath between moments. So what do you think about that? It's so funny. I feel like I'm always surprised how much dating, sorry, how much texting comes up in conversations around dating.

1:11:47But if you think about modern society, we really spend so much time away from our partner texting them and like a lot less time in person. So it does make sense that texting kind of feels like it's a big part of our relationships. So I did some research on this at Hinge and we have this concept called DBL, digital body language. And so just like physical body language is how does the fact that I'm leaning back in my chair or whispering or having my arms crossed, how does that sort of tell you how I feel? And digital body language is these unconscious kind of subtext to your messages. So people are very attuned to them.

1:12:23So there are things like, how long did it take you to respond to my message? How long is your message? Are you asking me questions? Are you giving one word answers? And so a lot of times people aren't aware of their own digital body language and they're either coming on way too strong or they seem not interested. And so I don't have the perfect solution, but it's like early on in dating, people almost need to say like, what kind of texter are you? Because there's so many missed opportunities. So for example, I hear this from a lot of women, let's say like a woman who's a doctor and she's like, I don't have my phone out all day.

1:12:57Like it would actually be like unsanitary for me to do that. So I put my phone away, but then people think I'm not interested because they're used to girls that text all the time. And they think that those messages mean that you're close or hear from guys who are like, people expect me to always be available, but I can't do that. So I think there's just a lot of miscommunication there. So I think that if you like to text a lot, you need to be with someone who can meet kind of the bare minimum that you want. Like I text way more than my husband, but I feel like he at least like can keep up with some of it.

1:13:32Other things that I would say are that people really should not make assumptions about text and try to just have those conversations. I know it seems hard, but I think learning how to say things like, hey, I haven't heard from you in a few days. You know, the story in my head is like that you met someone or you're less interested, like what's going on for you. And kind of before you jump to assumptions, maybe letting somebody in on like what you're thinking or giving people a heads up like, hey, I have a big work project and I'm not going to be as available for the next few days, but I don't want you to think that anything has changed.

1:14:04And so I kind of wish we didn't have to have these conversations because like, who cares about texting? Like life should be about the in-person moments, but I don't think that's realistic. I think in reality, a lot of courtship and a lot of relationships like are mitigated over text. And so we have to figure out how to express what we actually want and who we actually are knowing that it might be misinterpreted. This is kind of a personal question, but I think our girls will relate too. I sometimes am curious about intention in dating, where on one hand, I want to have the intention to just enjoy myself and have fun.

1:14:39And I feel like that feels good for me and it feels like less pressure. But then on the other hand, I do want to be married with children. I want to be married again and I want to have children. So what do you say for people of how they should approach dating? Should we approach it lightly or with intention? Yeah. I definitely struggled with this one when I was dating because I am a very goal-oriented person. And so it was like from the beginning, I'd be like, okay, we like each other. Like, when's the next time we can hang out? Like, what are your long-term goals? Like, where do you want to live?

1:15:05Do you want to have kids? And it's like, that is just sort of part of my energy that I'm kind of like, let's jump to it. But like, that turns people off. Like people don't like that energy. Like they want to have a slow connection. They want to feel like you're doing a dance where you both take steps towards each other. They want to feel like there's flirtation and romance and erotic energy. And so like for anyone who kind of has that feeling, like I so relate to you. Like I'm like, let's jump to the part where we're married. But that's not really how it works. And you can't just say like, if we're going to take these steps, why can't we just run through them?

1:15:40It doesn't really work. And so I think first is just acknowledging that like it's a very profound thing for two strangers to meet and choose each other and that you have to give that some space. And then the second thing is that you can keep the levity, you can keep the humor, you can keep the flirtation while also being an intentioned dater. And so I think what that looks like is on your profile saying, I'm really looking to find, I wrote this with one of my clients, I want to find somebody to combine my bookshelves with. It's cute. It's like, I love reading, but it's also saying, like, I'm here to meet someone long-term.

1:16:19And so I think finding a way in your profile on Hinge, there's a dating intention section. You can say, you know, short-term relationship, short-term, but open to long, long-term relationship, life partner. And you can use that and add like backstory to say like what you're looking for. And I think looking at other people's dating intentions is a good way to do that. And then on an early date, you could say something like, you know, I was married. It didn't work out. I'm really looking for long-term partnership. I definitely see myself being a mom in the next few years. What about you? What are you looking for?

1:16:48I don't think you're painting them into a corner. I don't think you're being demanding. You're just sharing like, this is my story. What's yours? And it gives them space to do that. And so I'd say like, keep the levity, keep the fun, keep the romance because people do not feel like you're hiring for role of spouse and trying to fill them into a slot. But you can also be really clear from the beginning about what you're looking for. And at Hinge, we've done a lot of research on this, that it's much better to be clear about what you want because you'll turn the right people on, but maybe even more importantly, you'll turn the wrong people off.

1:17:23And so each date you go on is more likely to turn into something because you're going on dates with people who are also looking for that as opposed to crossing your fingers and saying, well, we never talked about it, but I hope they want that too. I think that's such a good one. And I was on the apps for a little bit. And I think that was, I don't know if I read it somewhere. It was just an unlock where I was like, cause I think at first when I got on the apps, I was like, I just want to make this approach. I want everyone to want me. You know, I was like, I want to be the widest net. Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:52Yeah. And then it is, it's like when you cast the widest net, you have to sift the most, you have to process the most, you have to sort of kind of filter through everything. And there is such a power to being a lot more specific and truthful and honest and just like really getting more clear and you will have less, but it's like going to be so much less conversation and negotiation in your head if you're more clear with that. My last question that I had for you that I would love to know your thoughts on. So when we're talking about sort of the gap, you know, the masculinity crisis and the gap between men and women, what is the place where women can support men but not be their mothers or not be their therapists?

1:18:30Like how can we help them be better for us emotionally, emotionally, relationally, whatever, but not like become a place where we're now the new source of their need for approval. Yeah. I just want to go back to the thing you said right before that, which is that it makes sense. It's like when you were getting out of really shit up and going in the app, you were kind of looking for validation and it's fun to have people want you. What are you talking about? But I'm saying like, that's really normal. It's like the first night that I ever downloaded an app, I like spent six hours on it being like, I can't believe it.

1:19:01Like there I remember telling my friends, I was like, I'm killing it. I think that's so natural. There's such a dopamine rush. And it's like, who doesn't want that? But I think for people looking for relationships, you have to move from the attention stage to the connection stage. And so it's like, of course, I want to know the maximum number of people that like think I'm pretty. But at the end of the day, if you're looking for a relationship, you can't go on a date with all those people. You need to go on a date with people that are values aligned with you and looking for the same thing as you.

1:19:28And so it's like, I completely get why you did that. And also it's like the next stage looks different. Yes. And I think even being aware enough to acknowledge that, you know, it kind of like, okay, in my process, like, what am I doing right now? What do I want? I just want to know that I'm still wanted. And then it's like now, okay, I can pass that into a long-term relationship. For sure. You're like, who am I? Thank you, ladies. Thank you. Instagram likes wasn't enough. I needed more. Okay. How do we be with men? How do we support men? Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, just acknowledging that this is a moment where things are changing, that like we're really catching up with the fact that women are in the workplace and women are making more money and men need to do more than just providing.

1:20:09And I think just like acknowledging that this moment feels hard. And I think that when things get a little fuzzier, it can be really hard to know, like how am I supposed to show up as a woman and how is he supposed to show up as a man? And then I think one of the biggest things that women can do is the piece that we talked about, about when a man is more vulnerable and shows this emotional intelligence that we say we've been wanting to not shame them. Because what's going to happen is they're going to try it out with you. And if you shame them, then they might not do it with the next person. And so in my research, there was a story that really stuck with me where this guy said that on a third or fourth date, he shared with a woman that his mother had committed suicide and how this had impacted his life.

1:20:50And then afterwards, she texted him and she's like, I don't want to see you again. I'm not here to process your emotional labor. I'm not here to do your emotional labor for you. And it's like, that story just makes me so sad because he wasn't asking her to do emotional labor. He was like, you want to know me? This is part of my story. This is part of who I am. And she was interpreting that maybe she'd heard it on TikTok that like everyone needs to do their emotional labor. And it's like, you heard something on TikTok that you don't understand. And now you're shaming someone for opening up to you.

1:21:21Like you missed a chance to be with that person, but you also maybe change how this person is going to show up on future dates. Like we're all in this ecosystem. And so I think it's really understanding that just as men were taught that there was only one way to be a man and it was to be, you know, very masculine and strong and your provider. I also think women were taught the same thing about men and that when they see somebody who becomes more open and vulnerable, it can sometimes trigger something in them where they feel less safe. They're like, that's not how my dad was. That's not how Prince Eric was in The Little Mermaid.

1:21:57And it's also for women to understand that we've had 50 years of getting to be more than just one type of person and that there's a lot of ways to be a woman. And then if we're now in a moment where there's going to be more than one type of way to be a man, we also have to make room for that. Oh, wow. That's a good one. I really love that point.

1:22:15Lindsey Simcik:This was so helpful. So, so good. Yeah. I think last question for me is just, you know, I think a lot of people are on the apps and sometimes they take breaks, I guess. What would you recommend as just like good hygiene for using the apps? And like, how do you view the apps? Is it a tool? Is it like we're in a modern world? So I think they're a part of the conversation. Yeah. I like the way you frame that. So yes, I definitely think they're a tool and they can be part of a portfolio of ways that you meet people. So just because you're on the app doesn't mean you don't want to be open to introductions or meeting people at a coffee shop.

1:22:53So I think people are like so intense about this. It's like, I'm not dating right now. And like, if what you mean is you're not currently on the apps because you're traveling a lot, like you could still have the identity of being a dater and being open. You don't have to like assign that label to yourself. And I think with the apps, it's all about dating sustainably. So if you're like, I download the apps, I date a bunch of people, I get burned out, I delete the apps. And then a few months later, I download them again. I'm like, that's just a worse strategy than like going on enough dates that you keep momentum, but not so many that you get burned out.

1:23:24And so what is an amount of interaction with a dating app, with the number of dates you go on that feels like you could do it for a while and not like so hard that you burn yourself out? That being said, people should take breaks whenever they want. Just make sure you have a plan to like start over again. Maybe I should get back on. we'll see um this was beautiful this is powerful you're such an amazing clear speaker and i know the work you've done has helped so many women and especially so many of our women still see yeah men too feel seen and heard and understood and i think having this conversation is so important so thanks for taking the breath of those trolls on for all of us appreciate it so much um it was so good to have you in studio where can people find and connect with you tell us about your books too.

1:24:11Great. Yeah. So my book is How to Not Die Alone and I read the audio book and people can follow me on Instagram and I write a weekly newsletter. People can find it on my website. Amazing. Wasn't reading the audio book. Did you like that process? I really liked it. I loved it. It was fun. It was like a little performance in a studio. Yes. That's what I felt. It was like you can bring life to the words. Like I had so much fun reading ours. Yeah. It's a blast. It's good. Amazing. Okay guys, we'll see you soon. We love you. Bye. Thank you. thank you so much logan again it's logan yuri and her first book is how to not die alone and you can find her on instagram at her name logan yuri it's logan you are y and her website is

1:24:52Lindsey Simcik:logan yuri.com thanks so much for joining us if you have not gotten our new book almost 30 a definitive guide to a life you love for the next decade and beyond we would love for you to pick it up, whether online or in store at Barnes and Noble, Target, Amazon, and other places. We're so grateful for the response thus far. And we're just hopeful that this guide will support you through any season of change. We love you guys. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next one. We love you guys. Bye.

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