794. The Secret to Feeling Truly Seen in Relationships

28:04They have someone manage it. But yeah, I'm like staying in someone's home. And so I was like staying in homes in, you know, from Seattle to Miami to Brooklyn, I stayed in people's homes and just sat there and would ask them and got to interview them. And it was a pretty amazing journey that also led me to interviewing some of like the foremost experts in so many different categories. And yeah, it was just like a dive down the rabbit hole on what makes us good at relationships was the original question. I think the answer that I arrived at what the book is about is the thing that makes us good at relationships, whatever they may be, whether they're relationships with a loved one or a perfect stranger you may bump into on the street to, you know, your parents, your children, whoever, is knowing how to, you know, the mechanics of earning, honoring, and offering trust.

28:59Yeah. And, um, yeah, it, it transformed my life. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's been a wild ride. So here we are. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really, I think, um, refreshing and inspiring just to hear that like in-person intimate conversations that have revealed this truth. And it's just a reminder too, that like, that's where I think we're missing out when we're on our phones, where we're depending so, so much on like the digital part of our lives, um, where we're missing out on just these nuances of connection. And I think that's partly where the magic of tiny moments, like where, what it refers to is just being in those, like what we think are mundane moments with people and you pick up on, you know, maybe a little shift in their energy or maybe some body language or, Or, you know, a breath that they take and maybe you can go a little bit deep.

30:02You know, it's just we're missing that. And so that's why I said earlier this book for me is coming at the right time because I am desiring coming out of, you know, now it's five years post-COVID. But, like, we've depended so much on the digital, on being, you know, virtual with people, texting them, calling them, FaceTiming. Great and such a blessing. and I'm desiring that like real, real connection. And maybe it's my mom brain, maybe not, but it's like, I kind of forgot like what that means and how to build that. So I would love to talk about trust because I think we can think about it and be like, yeah, I know how to build trust.

30:42Like you do this, this, and this. Like actually don't think people understand the nuance of trust and how you build it with particular people. You talk about the trust fund and just how that works, you know, depositing and withdrawing. Can you talk about that concept, what you learned from the Gottmans? Because I thought that was really, really interesting. Yeah. So ultimately, you know, a lot of research shows that our relationships are really these collections of tiny moments in which we have either made each other feel safe, known, and loved, or we have not. And these moments are very small.

31:27There are moments where we're sitting at the table together and you're checking your phone and not listening to me. And I don't consciously in the moment say like, I feel unsafe, unknown, and unloved, but it does register somewhere that this person is not fully with us right now. Or when I say, oh, my God, I just like went to this cafe that's so beautiful inside and it just falls upon no ears. And it seems as though like the person I'm talking to doesn't even acknowledge me. Right. Or or they say something like, oh, that cafe. Oh, I went there. I didn't like it at all. Right. There's these moments, these interactions that they're so fluid and they're so frequent that they become ubiquitous and in some ways invisible.

32:10But it turns out that as these moments emerge, the way we respond to them, i.e. either do we respond in a way that makes the other person feel safe, known, and loved or we don't, it really has like a meaningful short-term and long-term impact on the relationship in our lives. Because what happens in that moment is we earn a little bit of trust or we lose a little bit of trust. And so Gottman has this concept that I believe he referred to it as a trust bank or no, he refers to it as an emotional bank account. I think of it as a trust fund because to me, trust is it's just the currency. It's like it's very clearly it's it's it has an emotional component.

33:00But trust is not even something that we are like, we can't necessarily see it as it's going like, oh, I trust that person a little bit less. I trust that person a little bit more, but it's like a feeling. It's like, I always say like, it's surprising who you end up inviting to your birthday party each year. And it's also surprising who comes, right? You're always like, oh wow. Like these are the, like, I didn't know. Like we get these little moments where we, where we, the, the reveal is like how much trust has really accrued in these funds and who's really showing up and who's not. And so I think that like, we tend to think of trust as something we earn in these like really big moments, you know, like, Like somebody showed up for me when I got hit by a car.

33:37Somebody like, you know, like somebody, you know, somebody stole from me. Somebody cheated on me. Somebody asked me to marry them. Like this is when trust was built. But it's really like it's really in the I like to say that the big moments reveal where we are, but the tiny moments reveal how we got there. Right. And it's like it's those little moments where like when I call this person answers, when I text, they text back. When I tell them I thought this movie was fun, they ask me why. Like they like, it's about the subtle engagements we have with people. And in those engagements, when we turn towards them in a way that makes them feel safe, known and loved, they inherently trust us a bit more.

34:20And in that, it means that like their, should I say, our threat detection system goes down a little bit. We're less concerned about what, you know, around what they think of us. We're less concerned about the quality of our hair. It's like, yeah, I think that's a funny thing for me to say. But I think that that's, you know, trust is something that, you know, my favorite definition of trust is from Oxford. Oh, my God. What is her name? Rachel Botsman from Oxford. She's a brilliant book called Who Can You Trust? And she defines trust as a confident relationship with the unknown. It's this idea that I don't know what's going to happen in the future moment, but I trust that I'm going to be okay, right?

35:12Trust is the bridge that gets us from the present moment to the future moment, like gracefully. Yeah. And it turns out that we just earn that not in these big grand gestures of loyalty or or lose it in these big moments of betrayal, but in these tiny moments where we just turn towards people and make them feel like they are safe, known, and loved.

35:38Yeah. It's a profound shift in perspective because I think, and I've been here, especially in like the early days of my relationship with Sean, I was so focused on these big moments, you know, like just making them count and what they meant and like how it defined us. And now we're both just very aware of what you're talking about, just these tiny moments. And we're getting better and better. Some days, you know, we're better than others, but of detecting, you know, what was that? You know, tell me more about how you're feeling. I want to get into the emotional vocabulary, because I thought that was a really interesting part of this book.

36:21But I think it's important that we are not so distracted, are not so in our heads, are in our bodies, and are as much as we can in the moment so that we can feel this moment and the tiny moments happening. So what, I guess, in your experience, maybe personal or in your interviews with people, what is preventing us from being able to recognize and be actually living in these tiny moments? Wow. Okay. So I would say that one of the things that I think really transformed my journey in sort of diving deep into trust and the mechanics of trust was understanding what I like to call the tiny moment loop, right?

37:19Which is like the architecture of virtually every interaction we have with anyone. So whether it's me and you right now, or you and your son, or, you know, me and a person that I'm going to sit next to on Amtrak today, right? So every tiny moment has a feedback loop in which someone makes a bid for connection. Just it could be anything. If somebody's sitting here, you ask a question, whatever the bid is, it's a, I would like to share a moment with you. And then in that moment, the receiver of that bid makes an assumption. and the quality of those assumptions are either generous or ungenerous. So generous is like, oh, this person is asking for a seat because they'd like to sit down and they're a patron of this train and they deserve that.

38:12And they're probably a good person and great, right? Or an ungenerous assumption, which is like, oh, this person is just like wants to sit next to me because like they know that like I'm going to be hanging out with Lindsay today and they're just trying to like, you know, find out how they can get to Lindsay and ultimately, you know, get on the pod. So like whatever. Whatever the ungenerous assumption is, right? And then based on the quality of our assumption, the third part of the loop is we respond. And we either turn towards, turn away, or turn against that bid for connection, right? Understanding that loop is critical if, you know, when we return to the question like, how do we bring our awareness to these tiny moments, right?

38:51Well, we'd have to bring our awareness first to like the genesis of every tiny moment, which is a bid for connection. We'd have to understand the concept of bids. You know, one thing that we've done in our family that I've done in my business is that I've done with people is I introduce the concept of bids and say like, this is what a bid is. A bid could be verbal, nonverbal. It can be physical. It can be a gesture. It could be a facial expression. It could be, you know, they could be direct. They could be indirect. You know, in the book, we cover all of this stuff. But like it's really bringing to the forefront this concept that like once you can spot bids and you have a concept for them, then you can identify when the cycle has begun.

39:34And you'll find yourself – you'll be noticing them everywhere all the time. You know, a good way to practice is also like watching movies or listening to a podcast or anything and spotting the bids as they come up and being able to name them, you know. So I think that like one of the main tools in being able to be more present is just honestly having the concept of the tiny moment loop and knowing that like in every interaction, somebody makes a bid, somebody makes an assumption and then responds. And then based on the quality of that response, the other person either bids again or they do not, right?

40:10And when we really understand the architecture of that, it's really easy to bring your awareness to it, right? So I would say that's the first thing is like understanding that concept in and of itself is a revelation. And then the other thing is that like, you know, I think that in order to be aware of those bids, we would have to do the inconvenient thing, which is pay attention. Right. And that's that's the part that that is most challenging for all of us today is that there's just we are just probably the most distracted cohort of people like ever to exist. You know, when your friend tells you a story, but you're like low key on your phone, you're missing like this really potent, viable, magical opportunity to earn their trust.

41:03Yeah. And you're letting it slip away, you know? And I think that like, if anything, the work has made me realize how often I have been doing that in my life. And it's like, it's brought to the forefront of my consciousness. Like, what are you doing? And honestly, nothing, nothing has brought that into more focus than parenthood. Oh, yeah. Because all children do all day is bid for connection. They're just like 100 % bidding 100 % of the time. Yes. And at that stage, it's just like turning towards constantly making that generous assumption. And sometimes it's, you know, it's just at the end of the day and you're tired and you're hungry and you're burnt out.

41:47Sometimes like ungenerous assumptions even about toddlers creep in, like pretty serious ones. And like I think that it's just like it's just about really bringing into our consciousness. Like that was a bid for connection. I am at a fork in the road where I can either make a generous assumption and turn towards, or I can make an ungenerous assumption and turn away. And I think that I don't have a great hack for doing that other than introducing the concept to people and encouraging them to not only practice it, but also introduce it into their own relationships. I mean, it's hilarious. Like, Aaron, I have friends.

42:25I have friends that have have since listened to the book. And also they've known me for years and they know the concepts. But like my friend Ben the other day, I got a text from him that just said bid like I'm reading recursion. I need you to read this book. It's crazy. You know what I mean? And it's just like so blatant. Yes. And I think that like I've been I've been deep in this material for a while. So I know that's a bid. But for Ben, I think that's a really powerful way to reinforce what he wants to do. and say like, dude, I'm not just saying I like this book. I'm saying like, I want to talk to you about it.

42:57So I love if you could read it, right? And so that's, you know, it's, I think that, you know, we're very distracted and we also don't have concepts for these things. We don't really understand the potency of these tiny moments and how they really work, you know? That's what I was going to say. Like, I think this is revolutionary. Like in our relationships, to be able to identify these moments where, and it could even, it like really tugs at my heart when you say like, they're bidding for connection, you know, it's like, that is just so pure and so, so human nature, yet we forget and we assume that it's because of, you know, they're inconsiderate, they're annoying, you know, like we kind of label what it is.

43:46And I think perhaps the learning curve for me in some of my relationships on identifying the bid for connection has been that it's not obvious at all. It's like it comes out as almost it seems like it's not they're not wanting to connect, but it's really they're wanting to connect. Can you give me an example of that? Because I can't really articulate one of my own right now, but I know it's happened many times in my life where I realize after the fact, oh, my God, they just wanted to be connected to me. But it's coming out as what seems to be the complete opposite. Sure. So, you know, I think most people, I shouldn't say most people, but many people are very familiar with Gary Chapman's The Five Love Languages, right?

44:37And people can speak a little bit about what their love languages are and how they communicate, you know, those feelings. with bidding. I think that I found that there are, there are at a high level, three different bidding styles, right? So there's three different flavors of bids. So your first bid is like a direct bid. It's like, Lindsay, I want to get coffee with you. Yeah. Right. Okay. Jared wants to get coffee with me. Done. Right. Those bids are great. Those bids are easy. Those bids are a incredibly vulnerable. Yes. Right. So making those kinds of bids requires a certain level of trust, not only in the relationship, but in oneself.

45:21And that's something I talk about a lot in the book, which is that like the ways we engage with other people are as much a reflection of the quality of the trust fund we have with them as much as the trust fund we even have with ourselves. Right. And some people are in a trust deficit, if not many people are in a trust deficit just internally with themselves. And so making direct bids about many things can be really challenging, right? So direct bids are great. They're easy to spot. I want to get coffee. Perfect, right? Then there's indirect bids. So indirect bids from what I've gathered through my research in talking to people about their relationships and how they engage, indirect bids seem to be like a tool, a go-to tool for, for many of us in, in many contexts.

46:10And so an indirect bid would be like, you know, I think I'm going to get coffee later. Right. I know I think I might, I think I'm going to, I don't know what you're doing. I'm going to go to La Cologne real quick. Right. It's like a gentle suggestion. I'm kind of letting you know where I'm going. Maybe you're going to pick up on it. Maybe you're not. That's like, there's something subtle there in order to pick up on that. One, I think it's good to have like the concept of bidding because it brings it to you're like, oh, that's a bid. I see that. Right. But then the third one, which is really interesting, and I've encountered enough people in my life who bid this way, who are real intimate to my life too, which is called negative bidding.

46:54Negative bidding is so confusing. Yeah, that's what I mean. Because it's so off-putting, too. It's like somebody's negative bidding. And negative bidding is like, I'm going to go get coffee. You never get coffee with me, so I know you're probably not going to want to go, but I'm just letting you know that I'm going. Hey, guys, I'm going to get coffee by myself again. See you later. Right? Yeah. Negative bidding. Feels a little aggressive. Can sometimes be a little demeaning. Can sometimes be a little domineering. um cry for help yeah right weird as the receiver because you're like that doesn't feel good at all how do i find space to turn towards this what is the generous assumption i can make about this right i think that like what you're referencing is a lot of the time and it's relationship dependent but we find ourselves navigating indirect bids and negative bids and this is where attunement to not only ourselves and other people, but like the context in general is really, really important.

48:05You know, I think that, I think that it would be nice if we all lived in a world in which we could all just say, please touch me there, please. You know what I mean? Like, but that's just not how we operate as a species. And I think that there's a lot of reasons for that, but I think that like becoming attuned to those bidding styles and a bidding style is not global either. Like some people may be more direct bidders in this relationship and negative bidders in this relationship. The way we bid in a relationship is often determined by the quality of the trust fund in that relationship, right?

48:38I have a story in the book of a woman whose mom, like during COVID, was like the kind of person who was like, you know, she put on a dress and she's like, oh, I never, I bought you that dress. You never wear it. I thought you'd just thrown it out. You never wear it, right? You're making dinner. I know you wouldn't want to cook with me. That's why I just stayed in my room and I was reading. And she's just, her mom is constantly saying these things to her. And I remember asking her, I was like, how do you navigate that specifically during COVID? Like you're like stuck in this house. How do you do it?

49:06And, and, um, she said, I forgive her every single time. And I think that there was such profound wisdom in that. And that like, if we really want to overcome those types of bids and really see them for what they are, which is this bid for connection. It's like, what I'm really saying is I want you to come have coffee with me. What I'm really saying is like, I'm sick of getting coffee by myself, right? It takes the ability to forgive in the moment, to attune, and it takes a lot of strength that, you know, we don't often or always have. But I think it starts by even being able to understand what's going on.

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52:38I think some people want to skip the process because it can happen quicker and quicker, but it is a process. It is a practice. And I think relationships have taught me that there's no quick fix at all to anything that is coming up that feels challenging. I want to talk about the generous assumptions and non-generous assumptions. I really, I love this concept because it's quite simple and we do it all the time. But one of the exercises you propose is making the most generous assumption. And yeah, sometimes my internal conversation is like, yeah, but is that true? You know, so what is a generous assumption?

53:31Why should we be making the most generous assumption? What does that do for the quality of the experience in the moment, but also the relationship? Sure. So I would say that the thing that the insight that I gained around generous assumptions is not necessarily like, like at a high level in broad strokes, It's like, you know, give people the benefit of the doubt. Sure. Okay. Well, like that's way easier said than done. The question that I was interested in solving was how do we make them? Like, I think we can all agree that making generous assumptions is a great pathway to being a good person and living a good life, but it's really hard.

54:15It's really hard to make generous assumptions depending on the quality of a trustee. fund in a relationship, depending on if there's been a serious infraction, depending on many things. And I think what I found is that our ability to make generous assumptions is related to a few things. The first one is the quality of our physiology at the time. Yeah, this is interesting. I want to talk about this. So like, you know, there's this woman, Lisa Feldman Barrett out of Northeastern University, who is a neuroscientist and a psychologist. And she has this really wonderful, compelling concept that she calls body budgeting that like, you know, your body, your brain is like the CFO of your body.

54:57And what it's doing all day is like it's moving resources from one place to another. It's like, okay, we need more salt. We'd like more sugar here. We need more glucose over here. We got to move water over here. Like that's what your brain is doing. And like if you ever have gotten up too fast and felt like dizzy or lightheaded, it's because your brain had not yet allocated enough resources to your head to make sure that like the blood flow is there so you would get up. So the brain didn't predict that you were going to get up. You weren't physically ready. And now it takes your body like a few seconds to actually acclimate, right?

55:30So you're constantly – your body has to be in homeostasis. Your budget has to be balanced. What that looks like in practicality is like, like that looks like you have to be fed. You know, it's like, I call it the baby checklist. Like, am I hungry? Am I tired? Do I need to go to the bathroom? Am I hot? Am I cold? Do I need a hug? Like these are very basic housekeeping needs that we understand with children, do not understand with other people. And we don't really understand them with ourselves, right? The best expression of this is definitely like hanger. You know what I mean? Like we understand like if I haven't eaten and then somebody makes a pretty big request of me, my propensity to either reject them or lash out at them and respond in some way that is unkind is probably greater than if I've like had a good meal, right?

56:21So I would say like conceptually generous assumptions is like give the person the benefit of the doubt. But like being able to do that starts with, I think, what most people would refer to as self-care. It refers to like, you know, making sure that you're eating healthy, making sure you're getting enough sleep, making sure that you're doing the things that, you know, keep you de-stressed. And that's like a tall order in a world in which we're always like soft working. We're spending, you know, countless hours in front of glowing pieces of glass where we've relegated our social relationships to a digital universe in which we're not having face-to-face engagement.

57:00And so we're kind of like living in a context that is making us less likely to make more generous assumptions. So it's not really about just like being a good person and like being kind. It's about like creating the conditions under which you're more likely to make generous assumptions than you're not. Yes. Right? So I think that like that's a huge part of it. And I would say that like the other part of it is recognizing when we're making ungenerous assumptions and being able to articulate why specifically as it relates to how we are feeling. Meaning like when this research came to light in our household, I introduced this concept of being under-resourced, right?

57:48And so like, you know, I could say to my wife, like, you know, I don't know, like, have you – can you check the garbage? You know, have we taken out the garbage? And she's like, I haven't gotten to it yet or something like that, you know? And she can say like, I'm a little under-resourced right now. So I don't know if I can respond to this the right way, right? But like that kind of like self-awareness around the reason I'm responding to you the way I am is because of my own like personal housekeeping of what I need to do to take care of this thing is like pretty powerful in a relationship. 100%.

58:25Because we're often not aware of how our – of the way we feel, how the way we feel transforms what we see and how we see what we see. and so by introducing that concept, it can really transform the way we think about the assumptions we make. I have a story in the book about, I read this fascinating article about how the Dalai Lama gets like super pissed sometimes. It's like, listen, like we're all gonna fly off the handle. We all make ungenerous assumptions. It's about like, how quickly can we recognize our ungenerous assumptions? If they lead to moments of turning against or away, how quickly can we repair?

59:04How aware are we of what underpins our generous assumptions, whether it's our lack of, you know, physical housekeeping, maybe we need a nap. Maybe it's, you know, that there are other things going on that we're preoccupied with and like we haven't articulated our boundaries yet. You know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that. But I would say that the generous assumption question is one in which it's like it's less about like how do you make a generous assumption? It's more about like how do you create the conditions by which you're more likely to make generous assumptions? Yes. Yes. I'm obsessed with this because I feel like it's been, motherhood has been such a mirror for this where, for example, Mav for a period of time was not sleeping very well.

59:48and so my sleep was affected obviously and um oh I was a different person during the day and I didn't love certain aspects of the person I was whether it was impatient I'd be snappy I would just be unreasonable in my expectations for myself or for other people you know it was just a long list. And once I started to articulate this out loud, just like my night was gnarly, you know, in so many words, I'm feeling under-resourced and either I need a little grace or I would love to figure out how today I can kind of fill my cup a little bit just to get back to close to homeostasis, it was really helpful for my husband in particular to understand like how I was just depleted and how it was affecting me in relationship.

1:00:52Because now, yes, we speak it, but now it's kind of this felt sense as well because we're living in the same house. So we kind of understand the various things that could be pulling from our resources. And it's been game changing. And I'm still in the process of figuring out as a parent, like how I properly fill my cup so that I am more patient. I am more present. And I'm also realizing how it's translating in my friendships, in my professional relationships. And yeah, I love this concept of kind of getting to the basics, the necessities of what makes us feel well, both in body, in mind, in the emotional body, because it really, really matters.

1:01:47You know, I think a lot of us are operating at not great and having really high expectations of ourselves or high expectations of other people. And it's a little distorted because of what's happening like physiologically and mentally. Yeah, I would say that the two things that come up for me around that, the first one is that I think that we tend to think a lot about self-care through the lens of like, take better care of yourself. You'll live longer. You'll have better skin. You'll feel better. You'll have better sex. You'll be more focused on the projects that you want to work on. Here was a revelation for me.

1:02:24Like take care of yourself and you'll have more friends. Yeah. You'll be a nicer person. Better relationships, yeah. You will build a higher trust community if you try to get sleep and eat foods that are good for your body. Yeah. I think that there is a direct line between self-care and thriving interpersonally. And so I think that introducing that concept into the sort of greater conversation around taking care of ourselves I think is really important to me. The other thing that I think is interesting is that conceptually we understand – if you look at your phone, for instance. If you looked at your phone, sadly humans don't come with battery indicators.

1:03:06I wish we did. I wish, honestly, I could like show you and be like, I'm at three, I'm at 3%. I'm at 3 % right now. That might be in our future, to be honest. Right, because totally, exactly, right? But like the thing that I think is so fascinating is like you can look at your phone and if you've got like 2 % and you get a FaceTime call from a friend, you can answer and go, listen, I can talk. My phone's going to die, right? Because I understand like in a general sense of like what this thing is capable of doing with the amount of juice it has, right? And I think that as we interact with other people, because we're not necessarily attuned to like where their battery is at, but even more importantly, we are often not attuned to where our battery is at.

1:03:51that becomes a thing where we can deeply personalize the quality of the interaction we have with them instead of most of the time just looking at it and seeing it for what it is, which is like a lot of us are living really distracted, long, overwhelming lives with more information in one day than the average person 100 years ago encountered in a lifetime. And like it's just a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. So I think that that's kind of like, if we want to make more generous assumptions, I think it's about one, like taking better care of ourselves. And then two, about giving people grace and forgiving them and recognizing that however they're responding to the present moment is oftentimes not completely rooted in whatever it is we're navigating.

1:04:47I had a revelation this morning when I was listening to the book, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. I'm not talking about clinical depression, but when people have periods of like a depressed episode or experience, I have them like where you just kind of the blues roll in. Everything feels a little bit harder, but eventually it kind of passes. Um, I want to start checking on how I am living these tiny moments and recognizing the positive in these tiny moments and seeing how that correlates with my blues. because I notice when I'm in those seasons, I am so hyper-focused on like these big picture things that might not be going my way, or I haven't done yet, or I haven't, you know, finished this one thing I said I was going to finish, you know, whatever it is, it's like big picture and I am unable to, you know, walk into my local coffee shop and really enjoy and engage in a conversation with the barista or, you know, the person sitting next to me at the, at a table.

1:06:17Like, so I want to be more observant of that and, and take note of that because I have, I, I have a theory that there's a connection there for me. So I'm curious what you feel, how you think about that. So I think I'm really careful and talking about, you know, depression or any other sort of, you know, serious like mental health issues that people may be navigating. I have spoken to some of like the smartest people in the world on these subjects and I certainly have stood on their shoulders to write this book, but I'm certainly not one of them. I do think that without understanding more acutely like what you're experiencing in these moments and like what else is going on in your life, I think a word that we like grossly misunderstand is loneliness and what it means to be lonely.

1:07:26And so loneliness I found is if feeling safe, known and loved is what I've come to call the feeling of home, only because across all of my research, whenever I ask people about their most trusted relationships, relationships, the word that came up most often was, I feel at home. I feel most at home with her. I feel most at home with myself. They really bring me, you know, they bring me, I feel at home with this person. I think that home became this concept for like, I am feeling safe, known, and loved. On the other side of the spectrum, when we feel unsafe, unknown, or unloved, That is the foundation for loneliness.

1:08:16And we can feel lonely. Loneliness has nothing to do with proximity to people. We can be lonely in our marriages. We can be lonely in our work partnerships. We can be sometimes lonely amongst friends, family, certainly at the Thanksgiving table. And I think that when we experience those feelings of disconnection, of hopelessness, and they don't have to be protracted loneliness that gets pretty severe. They could be, you know, a few hours, a day or two. I think from what I've been able to gather, there is this relationship to feeling unsafe and unknown and unloved in a particular relationship. And that could just mean like I'm just out of touch.

1:09:14Like I just haven't communicated with other people. I've been like in a perpetual feedback loop around something I'm working on. And like maybe it's time to invite somebody into that experience. You know, it's like I think that oftentimes we struggle with those things alone. And it's the idea that we don't feel like we have anybody in those moments that can send us into a spiral. So I would say that like, you know, will going into a coffee shop help? Maybe. I think also maybe like calling a friend and inviting them to go with you is probably important or like scheduling some sort of FaceTime with somebody or, you know, I think I tend to refer to that experience as like the lonely forest.

1:10:01It's like we kind of get lost in this like forest and we can't find a way out. But like just as if you were in an actual forest, the way you'd find your way out is maybe you'd start calling for help. Maybe you'd hope to hear another voice. Maybe somebody would lead you out. And that's often how life is. You know, we tend to think of lonely as a word that means like we have no friends or like we don't have anybody. But loneliness is a perceived state. It's not like something that we can measure acutely. It's something like you ask somebody, do you feel lonely? And they either say like, yes or no.

1:10:38It's just not like the same as like, is your leg broken? And so I think that like as it relates the tiny moments, like loneliness creeps up when, when we haven't had enough tiny moments where we have felt safe, known and loved, you know, and, and, you know, we, we kind of have to engineer our lives so that we can make those things happen, you know, which is like another big piece of the book was like, how do we create the conditions by which we can engage with people on a regular basis, whether it's, you know, creating some sort of regular way of texting with our friends. I have like a practice that I call Hilo in which I send my daily highs and lows to a few friends and they send theirs to me and we do it every day and we've been doing it for years.

1:11:21To, you know, I mean, I remember interviewing the founders of Sunday Assembly, which is this like fascinating, it's very much like touchpoint. It's basically like church without God. They gather every Sunday and there's music and there's like a TED talk and there's all these different parts, but there's there's no religiosity to it. It's like the way to avoid those kind of like those low moments, but more specifically like the consistent low moments is like by creating a culture of connection in your life, you know, in which we're consistently creating the opportunities for these tiny moments, these tiny interactions in which we get the opportunity to earn trust and to offer trust perpetually.

1:12:02Yeah. Can you give, um, a couple other, um, ways to create those positive tiny moments? Sure. Yeah. I think that like, so, so at the end of the day, like the greatest metric, uh, for building relationships, you know, and there have been so many studies that have proven this is just like quality time together. Like that's kind of it. It's why like making friends is so easy when we're young and so much harder when we're older and parents and working full time. Right. And so because when we're together, the tiny moments just emerge. Somebody says, oh, I'm going to go to the bar and get something.

1:12:41Or what do you do? Should we order appetizers? Or what are you reading these days? Like, what book are you reading? What do you write? We, we end up having these interactions just by nature of being in a physical space together. Right. And so when we're young, like we are essentially in a physical space with other people all day long. And then we often share that space with that same group of people, you know, in some sense for like 18 years. And so it creates all this time for us to have these tiny moments. As adults, we don't have that same kind of, you know, engagement. And so we have to make time like adult summer camps people go to or people go to Burning Man or people, you know, do different things to be able to create the context in which they can have dedicated time together, long weekends with friends over holidays, etc.

1:13:35I think that like figuring out how to build a social calendar that creates more time with people is just imperative to our physical and mental health. You know, like if you want to have more opportunities where you can create these tiny moments where there's a lot of bidding and a lot of generous assumptions and a lot of turning towards and you're caught in that really, really productive, really nourishing feedback loop, then you have to be together. And so what does that mean? It means like, you know, open up your home, invite your friends over, like look around your community to figure out where your community is gathering.

1:14:13I mean, this is kind of like, I mean, I think having kids was like really revelatory in the sense that like we moved upstate into this like obscure region where we knew nobody. And then our kid was like a like a calling card. And every parent is like, hi, you have one, too. I know. Oh, my God. What's your number? You know what I mean? Like, but like that concept, though, right? Like whether it's an athletic league or it's like you want to play Dungeons and Dragons, like people are so wanting to gather today more than, you know, I think more than ever probably in a sense that because we've been so fragmented and like, you know, I just got an invite the other day to like somebody wants to gather all the people who are working remotely or from home in like my little small town at this cafe.

1:14:59And I think it's on like the ninth and I'm going to go, you know. Love it. It's like, I think that if we want to create more moments than we have to, we have to find ways to consciously build more social engagement into our lives. Yeah. I love that. It's just, I think we abide by our work calendar so much more than we put effort into designing social calendar, just like that type of fulfillment calendar. and it's just as it's more important. It's more important. You know, I do better work when I have healthier and better connections with my friends, family, partner, my child. It's just every, it affects everything.

1:15:44Everything is everything. I, I had, what did I write down? Oh, this, this really surprised me. And I think people will be surprised by this and wonder how we can maintain these, but you were talking about just how personal communities play an important role, which we've been talking about. You said that you found that the number of stable relationships, I think this was in a study, someone can manage is 150 relationships. That seems like a lot to me. Is it? Yeah. And I know I would love to talk about the four circles and just kind of how this comes together? Sure. Sure. So, so there's been, uh, quite a bit of research that shows that like primate brains can, are, you know, the, the size of our cerebral cortex essentially informs how many relationships we can maintain.

1:16:45Right. So, so 150 is like, those aren't like intimates. That's like you know the person who works at the cafe by your apartment and you know their face and possibly their name, right? So it extends, you know, throughout all of those different concentric circles. And so based on the – whereas like let's just say like the brain of a fish cannot have as many stable relationships, right? And stable is just like we know each other. We can identify each other, right? I think this is why things like social media, you know, ultimately like Facebook and Instagram and all these things like challenge this concept because they're like, now you can stay in touch with all 200 ,000 people you've ever met in your life ever.

1:17:33And they'll all start popping up at different times. And like we can't really – we can't hold on to all that information, right? So the idea is that our communities are organized around concentric circles that are determined by the quality of our trust funds. So the people that are closest to us are what we call our intimates. And these are the people that are like, you know, there was a study that showed that like, you know, regardless of how many people you're connected to on your phone through social media, 80 % of your text messages and phone calls are with three to five people. So like these are the people that like you text like landed.

1:18:17Like this is like these are these are your intimates. They're the people who are probably your, you know, emergency, emergency contacts. These are the people you call if something terrible happens. They're also the people that maybe are in your wedding. Like this is your ride or die crew, right? Those are your intimates. The next group out is a bit bigger. And like, these are your friends. And so by friends, it means that like they're not really as close as your intimates. And by close, I mean, they're not as high trust. The trust funds really aren't as great, but like you feel really connected to them.

1:18:53They're probably definitely invited to your birthday party. Some of them are invited to like, you know, you'd call if like a loved one dies. They're definitely coming to the barbecue. And you have that group of people. On the outside of friends, you have this next group, which are called your familiar faces. So familiar faces are, you know, your barista, the neighbor you see walking their dog every day, your partner's cousin who you've seen probably at a half a dozen family gatherings who you never really dropped in, but you know them. And like, you know, these are people who are like, you haven't really built a ton of trust with them, but they're like in your life and you can identify them.

1:19:36And then the people who are farthest away from you that are way beyond familiar faces are what I call your foes. So these are people that you consciously are aware that you have a like a low trust relationship with, that this trust fund is overdrawn and they do not make you feel safe, known and loved. And the totality of all of those different circles is your community. And so the more people you have in that community and how often you're bringing people in through that funnel of like people who start as familiar faces and then become friends and then maybe, you know, a very small percentage become intimate.

1:20:20Like to make sure that that's constantly going, that there's people coming in, there's people getting closer, that you're making time for people at every single level. that is like the art and the science of constructing a high trust community. Right. And I think the most fascinating part of the research is that all of these groups are really integral. So like, so often people think that it's just the intimates. It's like, you just need like that, like couple ride or die friends and that like partner and like, you're all set. Like a hundred percent, those people are integral to your mental health.

1:20:56Um, but it turns out that like, ironically, they can't be everything, right? We need other friends. We need other people to be with, right? And those people serve, you know, other purposes. It's not that they have to be so deep and intimate, but they're entertaining. They're fun. They introduce us to new things. The familiar faces section, that circle serves a very meaningful purpose. Those people have proven to change our lives, meaning because the people in familiar faces don't have the same, like, let's say, like, crossovers around, like, interests, places you've traveled, like, you'll tend to have a lot of crossover with your friends and your intimates around, like, where you've been, what you've done, what you do for a living.

1:21:43The people in familiar faces, those are the people that are like, dude, you got to come to Burning Man. And you're like, what's Burning Man? I'm like, I can't tell you how many people have been to that, that experience. And we're invited in by a new person who just showed up in their lives and were like, oh, I have to go do this, right? Those are the people that introduce you to a book that you would have never read, that introduce you to a new conference that you can go to to find a new job or to discover a new passion. It's like familiar faces transform our lives. They're the people who throw the remote, you know, workers hang out, you know, in upstate New York.

1:22:15And like, I'm just going to go. I don't know these people and I don't know who I'm going to meet there. But like those are the people that they take you directionally into places your intimates and your friends never could. And so, you know, all of these different groups provide tremendous value, you know, spiritually, emotionally, practically in our lives. And so finding ways on our calendars to say like this is how I'm going to be with my intimates. I do high-low with like my ride or dies. Every day I send my daily highs and lows. I get there is it's an amazing practice. It's transformed my life.

1:22:52It's transformed the lives of everybody I've introduced the practice to. That's great, right? For friends, like in Brooklyn, we used to have something I call Park Slope cinemas. We had this great apartment in Park Slope. And like every few weeks, like one friend in the chat could recommend a movie. And, you know, I mean, I think I don't remember what the statistic is, but like more than 60 or 70 % of Netflix binging is done in private alone. That didn't used to be the case with like going to the movies with friends or watching things. It was much more of a social, you know, habit. And so I started this years ago, we would have 20 friends come over and we'd all just watch a movie.

1:23:30And like we, somebody would make snacks and it was a whole thing that we, we created, you know, and people would bring new friends. So like, that's like an opportunity for friends, for familiar your face is. It is those like, like if you, if you are a believer in, you know, a, an organized religion, you know, go to church, go to synagogue, you know, pursue that path, find something like Sunday assembly, join a basketball league, find a mom's group, like whatever it is, like we have to, if we want more connection in our lives, it has to show up on our calendars. Yeah. Like, honestly, that's honestly it.

1:24:08Like there's not, there's not a good way around that. You know, it just has to show up on our calendars. And, and I think then once you're in those moments and you understand the mechanics of like, that was a bid, how do I turn towards, how do I make a generous assumption? How do I, then you, you have the opportunity to like really make it happen. Like you do have to like, you got to show up. You got to like, you got to be in the arena. Yeah. And it's the modern age. So like, we're going to fill our calendars with all the other things. And my husband's really good at this. He is, he's teaching me so much.

1:24:40And I feel like you are, you are an expert at this, but just how do we come together? It doesn't have to be this big thing, but it's like making the time, putting in the effort, sending the group text, getting it on the calendar, sending the calendar invite, like just put, making it happen. I have the habit of talking about it, wanting it to happen, but not actually putting it on the calendar. So I love that simple but really powerful point. Okay. I could talk to you for hours. I want to round out the conversation. I think someone can listen to what you're saying today and think, oh, his relationships must be on lock.

1:25:23Like he must be recognizing tiny moments every single day. Like just you got it. What are you working on right now in your relationships, maybe in various parts of the concentric circles? But yeah, I would love to know. Repair and forgiveness. I would say that like, I would say one, like knowing these things and being able to apply them and practice them every day are very different, very far apart. I think that I miss bids every day. I make ungenerous assumptions every day. I think that a big part of the work is just understanding these concepts. Yeah. Because when we understand the concepts and we understand the architecture of these things, then like we can be accountable to them and we can work on them.

1:26:14So I would say that like that's, so I'm working on every part of this. But the things that like are most present for me are definitely repair and forgiveness. So, you know, it's like repair is, is, is a, it requires so much vulnerability, so much humility and, and really like a profound capacity to see ourselves into the future. You know, like so often we can transgress in a tiny moment. It doesn't have to be a big deal. And like, we just let it go. But like, the truth is that by repairing that moment, like we're, we're doing such a solid for our future selves. Um, and for the relationship that we're in.

1:27:02And that's just something that I I'm working on every day. And I think that like, it is easier for me to work on it with in my life specifically, because I've introduced this material to everybody I love. So like, like, it's really fun. Like when like somebody I know and love is just like, you let me know when you're ready to repair. And I'm like, well, you know, I mean, so like, that's kind of the benefit of like learning the material that like, I would say like, you know, once you, you build relationships with these frameworks, you can like hold each other accountable to them. And so I would say the things that like, I, I am constantly practicing or forgiveness and repair.

1:27:44And I think that like, I feel very grateful that at this point, like there are people in my life who are holding me accountable to those things. So I would say to anybody who's listening to this or watching this or listens to the book and is getting the vibe that like, I've got it all on lock. I do not. I have evidence of that. There are other people who can attest to that. But I'm trying. And I think that that like I think that it goes back to the original question which was well how do I get good at relationships and I think that the answer that I've come to is we have to like stay committed to them yeah and that commitment is really about like the commitment to like cooperating right it's a commitment to cooperation.

1:28:41I think that that's, that's it. Like we're gonna, we're gonna miss bids. We're gonna turn away and against, we're gonna make ungenerous assumptions. We're not gonna repair on time or in the most elegant or graceful way, but like I'm committed to cooperating and we're gonna get there. Yeah. And I think that like, you know, that feels safe. That feels like I can trust you even though it's not perfect. And that's, and that's what it's like, that's, that's that's been the work for me like this as I like reflect on like the four pages of uh single spaced about my previous relationship years ago and what that really taught me was like so often like there was a lack of commitment to cooperation which ultimately led to the the breakdown of trust yep and so I think that that's it I'm committed imperfect and committed But that's where I would wrap up.

1:29:36Thank you, Jared. Thank you so much for having me. This was profound. So The Magic of Tiny Moments is available now on Audible. Highly recommend digging into an audio book, y 'all. It's a profound way to digest and metabolize these concepts. And for me, it's like for some reason it's easier to then practice in the moment. I have no idea why this might be specific to me to have it like in my ear. So thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. All right, y 'all. We'll see you on the next one. Bye.

1:30:13Thank you so much, Jared. You can follow Jared on Instagram at Jared Matthew Weiss. The Audible original is The Magic of Tiny Moments. You can download it now. Thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate you. Share this episode or any other Almost 30 episode with a friend. It's always a nice conversation starter. So good. It means a lot to us. Thank you so much for ordering our book, Almost 30, The Definitive Guide to a Life You Love for the Next Decade and Beyond. All right, we've got Morning Micro-Dose for you. Instagram is Almost 30 Podcast, so is TikTok. And then YouTube, we will see you later.

1:30:46Bye. Bye.