815. Why Women Fear Their Own Power with Glennon Doyle (Bonus)

29:08The family members who were the most afraid slowly start to grant themselves permission to live. My mother, I don't know if any of you have seen any pictures of my mother on the interwebs. There's several of them because she is fucking crazy. She is the most radical activist in our family now. She's been to twice as many gay pride parades as Abby and I put together. She plans trans remembrance ceremonies for her new church because she left her Christian church because it was not gay friendly enough and started at a new one she is she goes to marches she goes to political meetings and rallies she it was it's I just watching her like like first of all I can't keep up with her and she's making me look bad but also it's just like this idea that when you see somebody it just like woke up something inside of her yeah that she probably has always been because it's not our parents fault they were trying to be good moms right like they they thought that was the epitome of love right so I don't know it's just so and Craig now like Craig was so so upset when we were divorced now he's so happy he has this gorgeous girlfriend who wants to make out with him like of course right like it just it very rarely happens that someone is slowly dying and furious all the time and miserable in a relationship and the other person is having a good time right like there's resistance there at first but if what I truly believe is that what is what is true and beautiful for me will always ultimately be what is true and beautiful for my people.

31:17That there is no either or, that there is no phantasy of, do I put my people's needs ahead of my own? No, there's no line. There's no hierarchy. What my people need is the exact same thing as what you need.

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35:17It's so powerful. And I've been kind of working through this in real time, thinking about that and that it's been confusing for the people that love me the most. The fact that I haven't spoken my truth or been myself in certain situations, it's very confusing. And then it like kind of kinks their hose too. And so there's just like this really sticky energetics between us and we know it doesn't feel good, right? But we don't know how to articulate it. So I just thank you for articulating that. I think that's so important. And the second point about, you know, your relationship with your mom and your parents, I've just been seeing that like very clearly for myself recently where, you know, I don't think it's my job necessarily to quote, wake them up, but I always held so much resentment that, well, aren't my parents supposed to teach me that?

36:16Aren't they supposed to tell me this and show me that and show me the way here. And I forget that it is like that, that two-way street. And it's, it's actually a more beautiful dynamic, um, way for me to participate in that relationship rather than always like waiting to receive, you know, what my parents should give me as parents. And really looking at it as a relationship has been super healing for me. I wanted to dig into, you know, you talk about pain. In Untamed, you say pain is the fuel for revolution. And I just kind of want to like widen the lens here for, you know, kind of the collective pain.

37:00although I think you know I'm trying to see it as like this this change and this stirring but a lot of us are experiencing it as pain because we're pulling away from whether it's an identity that we've held for so long or what have you so I would love to unpack that and how you've been kind of looking at it especially recently with everything that's going on in the world? What I know is that in our culture, we have really screwed each other by not talking about how to deal with pain, right? I mean, the things that we will make children learn without teaching them the very basics about, I mean, I think one of the reasons I turned to addiction so early, I became a believer when I was 10, is because I was freaking angry and sad and fearful and doubtful and envious and all these things.

37:57And nobody freaking talked about that stuff, right? We just are a culture that worships happiness. We think we're supposed to be happy all the time. And if we're not happy, then everybody panics and tries to fix us, right? So when nobody talks about pain, you start to think that your pain means you're different and weird and you start to like hide it or numb it right and then that's what our whole culture does and then you miss the benefits of sitting with your pain right because if before we were talking about the point of life is to become over and over again truer and more beautiful versions of ourselves, then the fuel we use to become that, it's pain, right?

38:47It's sitting with your anger. It's sitting with your fear and your doubt. It's not numbing yourself out of it over and over again. It's not grabbing those red easy buttons. You remember those Staples commercials where people would just, things would get stressful and they would grab a red easy button and hit it and they'd be transported out of their you know stressful hot loneliness place so we all learned our easy buttons and the tragedy of that is that when we transport ourselves out of our pain we miss all of our transformation right because everything we need to become the people we're supposed to be next is inside the pain of now and the other thing that happens I think that most women all every woman that I know all of them all the honest ones at least will tell you you that at some point in her life, she realized that she had lost touch with herself, that she had completely happened to me when I found myself Googling, 3 a.m., Googling, what do I do if my husband is a cheater, but is also an amazing dad?

39:54Enter. Okay. So this is a rock bottom. This is a time where you are 42 years old and you realize that you are asking a bunch of trolls and bots what to do with your one wild and precious life. right? This is really something. And I just remember sitting there and thinking, when did I lose myself? Like, it's like a phone line has been cut. Like, I know I'm up here, but I can't reach the part of myself that's supposed to tell me who I am, what I want, what I know, what I should do. Like, when did I stop trusting myself? And I believe that one of the reasons we stop trusting ourselves is because we abandon ourselves during pain.

40:41If a friend comes to us and says, I'm in pain, I'm so sad, I'm so heartbroken, we would never be like, I'm out of here. I can't take this. I'm sorry. I'm done. You should Google it. Google it. But we would never do that. We would never abandon our friend in her moment of pain, but we do it to ourselves all the time, right? Which is how we break trust with ourselves. And so one of the beautiful things that happens, it's not just when you learn how to stay with your pain, which by the way, all it is, is waiting. Everybody's like, what does that mean? How do you do that? You just get pissed or you get sad and you just be sad.

41:30Literally it. You just don't use all of your shit to not feel it. Right.

41:39So that changes you, right. The pain is like, um, it's like an alchemy, right. It literally changes you, who you are. Um, but it also makes you become a woman who trusts herself because you become a woman who doesn't abandon herself in pain, right? You like look at yourself in the mirror one day and you're like, I got you. No matter what happens, I'm staying. You just stay with yourself, right? So that's been one of the best lessons of being 40 is like, first of all, learning that all feelings are for feeling, right? We're not, life is not about being happy all the time. It's not about feeling happy.

42:22It's about feeling everything. But pain won't kill me. I used to think that if I did feel my pain or my anger, that I would be like a black hole from which I would never recover. That is just not true. You can feel all of it and survive. And also just this beautiful relationship you end up with yourself when you're, when you become a woman who doesn't abandon herself. It's just, I don't know. I have become a human being. I will abandon everyone else's expectations of me. Everybody, even Abby's, everybody's, before I will ever abandon myself again. That's just the only failure to me now. The only failure I can think of is self-abandonment.

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46:00And it's one of those things too. It's like you teach others how to treat you. So that's why that's when the reverberation effect where everyone starts to treat you differently with respect, with love, with like this sense of awe when you are there for yourself the most. And it's just a healing experience for everyone to witness. It's so profound to see a woman in her power. Um, and to that, one of the, one of the parts that I, I was just like, Oh my God, I couldn't believe you putting in the books. I'm like, this is a whole nother book. I just think it was so powerful about rest and how resting is laziness.

46:36That was like a belief that you had and laziness is disrespect. And when you would witness Abby resting. Um, and I believe so many women of our community are exhausted. You know, we were at on tour last year and at one of our tour stops, we like had everyone raise their hands. We're like, how many of you are exhausted? Every woman in the audience raised her hand because we're doing all the things and we're just fucking exhausted and we don't feel worthy enough to rest. So I'd love to talk a little bit about, you know, that discovery for you and how resting has changed you from that point. Yeah.

47:10So this is one, this is one of the, um, joy, the silver linings of anger, right? Because our bitterness, I think I'd call it bitterness. Like Abby would just fricking, it would be the middle of the day. Okay. It'd be like two o 'clock. I've only just begun. I have only just begun to be miserable on this day right I worshipped I worshipped misery like I thought I earned my worthiness by how bitter and exhausted and miserable I was okay this is like um the way that I kept my family safe was by worrying to death like I earned all of our safety by my misery okay um and so when you're a person like that and your freaking wife just decides it's two o 'clock and why the hell not watch two hours of zombie shows on the couch.

48:04As you do. You guys, you guys, I would lose my damn mind. But we were still in the honeymoon period, so I couldn't communicate directly, okay? You just moved up around her. Yes, yes, yes. I would just for sure need to do the dishes then, okay? So she would be resting at me, and I would be doing the dishes at her, right? So that is we are masters of communication, right? And so the cool thing is, is I have figured out, usually I forget and I'm miserable for a little while, but then I do remember that like when I'm pissed off at somebody or something, it's usually just information about me. Like I'm triggering something, a belief about myself.

48:48And this is how I know, because when I'm like being pissy in my head about it, this phrase will always come up which is must be nice must be nice to lay on the freaking couch at two o 'clock must be nice and then i remember to change the tone of the sentence okay so i go from must be nice to must be nice that changes the whole thing like it must be nice maybe that is nice maybe i want that thing. Like maybe I want to be as audacious and comfortable in my own skin that I can

49:32and think that the entire world is going to stop spinning, right? Maybe I want to rest, right? Maybe I want to actually, maybe it's deeper than that. Maybe I want to actually believe that I do not control the universe because what a woman laying on the couch at two o 'clock is saying is I don't control this universe. And I really do believe that things will carry on without me. What? Okay. So what, what happened is that one day Abby was on the couch and she, um, and I walked in the room with a, with a basket of laundry, of course, because I needed to fold at her. And I saw her like jump up. Like she jumped off the couch and like she was nervous.

50:24Like she was ashamed. And that took me right back to when I was 10 years old. And when I would be home alone, if I heard my parents' car come up the driveway, I would jump off the couch, try to look busy. In my home, hustle was everything. Like you did, your ass did not sit on the couch unless it was family approved resting times, which was just eight to eight 30 Cosby show. That was before we knew about Bill. Okay. Yeah. Right. Um, so, so basically it was triggering an old belief that like I still functioned by, which is that my worthiness is tied completely to my productivity, right? That I am only worthy of the space that I take up on the earth in direct proportion to what I am producing, to what I am cleaning, to what I am, you know, just, it's so exhausting.

51:27It's so exhausting and it's so not true. And you guys will have to remember it as producers of content. I mean, dear God, it will eat you alive. Like if you do not fiercely guard your humanity, right? If you do not remember that you are not a machine and that you are not a robot and that you are not here to just constantly push out content in one way or another, right? That part of the beautiful part of the human experience is just to be right. Just to make the radical decision that you deserve the time and the space on this earth, just to be and rest and enjoy, you know? So, um, so I work on it, you know, like after this podcast, I'm for sure.

52:20She's sitting out there on the couch. A hundred percent. Okay. And maybe I'll go join her for 20 minutes and then I'll start like itching.

52:33little victories but that's the thing every time i say i hear myself saying must be nice about anybody that judgmental thing that really reveals your deep longing i just always think okay how can i get that thing for myself then yeah i mean relationships are our greatest teachers and i'm feeling like as an adult It's like the most uncomfortable thing at times, you know, especially with a romantic partner. You know, I think I like I early on in my dating days, I always wanted to change the person, you know, so that like feeling of like her sitting on the couch. It's like. Like wanting to change that about her.

53:21but it's been such a cool experience to be in those moments and be like, I love that you love that. And maybe how it makes you feel is something that like we can enjoy together or I could start doing. It's just like this really beautiful learning and, um, um, that we chose that person for a reason because the thing they are doing is the thing that we deeply know we need. Like for For example, okay, I'm with you, except I'm probably more extreme than you in that I am the most controlling controller that ever controlled. Okay. Like I used to just call it good leadership. Okay. But now I know that I'm the worst.

54:05Okay. And I just feel like I'm very smart and that I have really good ideas about how everyone should behave and that if everyone would just do the things, right, that it would just all, I just have this vision, right? and it would just all, I just want to help you make all of my dreams for you come true, is what my family says about me. Okay, so this worked for a long while, but then I married Abby and it stopped working completely. She's uncontrollable and we're two women, so we're just always like digging and talking and like over communicating and we know each other very well. And so one day I was doing the thing where I'm just manipulating her, but I think she doesn't know.

54:50Right. And she said, okay, honey, I just see what you're doing. I know it's out of love, but I need you to know that when you try to control me makes me so sad because it makes me know that you don't trust me and I trust you so much and I want you to trust and respect me too okay these were not the conversations I was having with my exes okay usually don't catch the manipulation which is like no blessing I went a decade without that conversation in my last year. A hundred percent. So here's what I figured out about control. Okay, she was talking about control, but she was talking about love and trust.

55:39And so what I figured out is, oh, we can control our people or we can love our people, but we can't do both because love demands trust. And so we only control things we don't trust. Right? And the cool thing is, is that when you figure out, you said you're trying to change your person. I'm trying to change Abby. Okay. Okay, Glennon. So what's the end result of that? Do you want her to be like you? You want her buzzing around this house like you? Like never sitting down? Or like Abby has this unbelievable trust in people. She just trusts everybody. Abby, I am Fort Knox of boundaries, okay? It is very hard for me to trust people, like in my real life.

56:29I know in my art life and activist life, I love everybody. In my real life, I love like four people, okay? I'm just like very guarded. And so when Abby widely just trusts, goes around trusting everybody, it scares the shit out of me. and so I shame her about it. That's my main strategy is I say, have you asked this? Have you asked this?

56:58Until I figured out, do I want her to be like me? Like, do I want her? No, I married her because I need to rest. I married her because I need to trust, right? She married me because she needs to get her ass off the couch. She married me because she needs to ask a few more questions of people, right? We actually both need to stay exactly who we are and just model for each other these like yin and yang ways of being that actually make us really good partners.

57:34Anyway. Obsessed with that. Yeah. My fiance loves the most when I'm like unwell. If I'm like feeling my stomach hurts or my head hurts and I'm resting, it's like his favorite thing. He like curls up next to me. He's like, Oh, we're just going to chill for a while. I'm like, Oh, only until I'm better. Um, just as a last thing I'd love to know, you know, as far as like your activism right now, has that been more activated than ever? How are, are you feeling inspired? Are you feeling defeated? Like, how has that been? Cause I know that's such a huge part of your life. Yeah. I mean, it's been different than usual.

58:05Like usually with Together Rising, I would say were 60 % kind of like first responders on the ground trying to like meet individual families needs. That's what we've been doing for a decade. Just like people who are like women who are like, I can't keep the lights on. I can't pay my bills. I can't follow up. We work one-on-one and then 40 % are big projects. Like the last few years, we've been the number one American organization reuniting families at the border and dealing the best way we can in service about the Syrian refugee crisis and also really focusing on LGBTQ. The LGBTQ community is the highest growing rate of homeless people in the country and that's because of the shame and hate that is trickled down in religious institutions to families who then turn that shame on their children and kick them out.

59:03Okay. So, so those are like big projects that now that we're always working on and that now feel like we're not as much because every minute of our day is going towards being that other 60 % first responders, because luckily we feel a little bit like we built the ark before the flood because we have been meeting people's needs this way like for so long we just have so many systems in place to get funds to hurting people in real time so so in some ways it feels like some of it feels like the rest of the world like in some ways the big shit has stopped and the little micro just keeping people fed and keeping their lights on and keeping their rent paid has like skyrocketed.

59:57So yeah, that's that. Amazing. I was reading an article and you were talking about, you know, exposing your mainly white audience of women to, you know, the issues and the pains and the challenges of people of color. And that responsibility is something that, you know, we have felt with a platform and are just honestly navigating it, making mistakes along the way, but trying to be as honest as possible. And so like, I would love to just hear from you, like, what does that responsibility feel like? And, you know, how do you give yourself grace as you learn and evolve along with, you know that mission well first of all I would say fucking awesome that you asked it I feel like that is like proof that you're doing it because that's it even that like even asking the question I can't tell you how many podcasts I've done with white women over the last maybe 7 ,000 podcasts in the last few weeks and barely any of them have asked me that so awesome because it's isn't it's scary.

1:01:12It's scary to like even bring up because you're afraid you're going to say it the wrong way or you're afraid you're going to like, so I think just being willing to bring the topic up, to let it be awkward. I feel like, I mean, I have been sort of in the anti-racist, anti-racism movement for a while, for a long time now. I have screwed up in so many ways that it's like, Sometimes I think my main job, whether or not this is an actual job, is to try the thing first, screw it up royally, so that everybody can watch me screw up publicly, and then they can learn from what comes next. I really do feel like, and actually, that's a service.

1:01:57That's huge. I mean, that's huge. Right? So, you know, a few things, a few things. I used to think all the time, like, why is my audience so white? why is my audience so white? Okay, that's not the right question. Like my job is not to get my, to have black women listen to me more. My job is to get my white audience to listen to black women more, right? So my first thought to you would be is have as many brilliant black minds on your show as you possibly can. I have lists that I can send you. Just amazing. You know, I started this tour eight years ago or something. I just noticed that the speaking, I'm mostly a speaker.

1:02:45And I just, the speaking world was just like, God, like every freaking big, every big panel would be like, here's your two spots. Where's our token? Where's our three spots? Well, let's get our token to light women. And then, you know, one black woman, like just, it just was so infuriating. So I actually started a tour and with almost all women of color. And then like me and Abby, we were the token white people on the tour. And what was so amazing is that the people will kind of come to hear me. And then the every single speaker on that tour was so unbelievably fantastic. You know, one thing I've noticed is that when you have a tour or an event and you have that token spot to add a black woman, woman of color, it is like expected that that person will speak about race.

1:03:47it's so as if that human being is not a full human being who also has all kinds of different thoughts beyond race and could speak on other things and maybe one of the white people on the panel should be speaking about right like it's just so offering um spots and passing the microphone to women of color and at any ways where they speak to all of their parts of humanity and not just you know checking the race box I think is super important I think it's really important to um I would I think that anti-racism work for white women is like um a glacier and 95 percent of it needs to be done underwater meaning um you need to be reading every single book you can get your hands on.

1:04:36You need to be following black women and women of color activists. Like it's your job because it is. You need to be reading. You need to be transforming because if you are not becoming different, then when you do show up, what you say will be off, will be wrong. Because the process, it's not about like performing. It's about transforming. It's about like unlearning every single thing you've ever learned in your white centric education as I did. And so So when you've read, when you've experienced, when you've listened, when you've read, when you've given yourself time to change, you hear and see and speak differently, right?

1:05:17And that's why like white women get so upset because they say the thing and it's wrong. It's just wrong. It's wrong. And then they get corrected and they think, I, we think, but I tried, but I said the right thing. Why is everyone so mad? And the reason why people are mad, it's not just because they said the wrong thing. It's because the thing that they said proved they didn't do any of the work before they showed up, which proves that it's all performative because had they done the underneath work, they never would have said that thing in the first place. Yeah. Right. So, so that would be my advice.

1:05:58Just spend, just make sure that your anti-racism work is 90 % underwater where no one can see it. right? And then you actually will feel less scared to speak because you will have become different. You know, it's like, it's like if you're holding, if you're holding a mug and it's full of coffee and you get bumped, coffee will spill out, right? And if you're holding something else, something else will spill out. Like when you show up to anti-racism work, you will get bumped and what you are inside will spill out. So you have to do the work to make sure that thing that is inside is different than when you started.

1:06:45And just keep being brave because you'll get criticized and there are worse things than being criticized, which is being a coward, right? Yeah.

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1:09:49it's the most humbling work of all time you know it's it's just yeah it's that space where it confronts a lot of what we've been taught I feel like as women which is you have to be liked need to be right um have to be small and just to go into that knowing that you're mostly wrong that you know you have to do a lot of the work to figure it out a lot of the work is inside is like so transformational so that was one of the things in the book that I honestly did not expect and I was like damn she did not come to play like it is like so real for me I'm like that is so profound and I'm just so grateful for everything that you've done you know all the points that you spoke to it's so important for women it's so important for all people and um we could talk to you forever so thank you so much for coming on I just like I'm in awe of you and your energy is just the best and um we're we're really excited and honored oh you guys well i hope this is just the beginning of a friendship i just think you guys are wonderful i mean sure i'm at your house tonight i'll get on we'll be on the couch i'll be folding with you actually i can be moving stuff around clanking it you can be folding we can like double team it i'm a good chiller oh man so so untamed is available now everywhere books are sold and i cannot recommend it enough i feel like i send texts like by the bushels every week to people i'm like have you read it yet and not just saying that because you're here i truly truly am so blown away by this piece of writing i mean everything you've written has been incredible but it's also really cool to bear witness to your evolution in your writing through these memoirs.

1:11:34So thank you so, so much. Thank you so much, Glennon Doyle. This is a rerun episode of Glennon's that we're so, so honored to share. It was a conversation back May 19th, 2020, to put it in context, but timeless wisdom. I'm so grateful. You can learn more about Glennon at glennondoyle.com. She has a media company. She has multiple books. She has her podcast. We can do hard things. Um, yeah, we just appreciate you. So thanks everybody for listening to the almost 30 podcast. You can follow us on Instagram, almost 30 podcast and Tik TOK at almost 30 podcast. We're on YouTube. We're on video right now.

1:12:14I'm in my house. Okay. I'm in a crew neck sweatshirt. I, uh, don't have a ton of makeup on. I think a little mascara and maybe a brow, but I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be on video because it's so nice to connect with you guys in that way. Love y 'all. We'll see you on the next one.