832. When Talk Therapy Isn’t Enough: The Missing Piece in Emotional Healing with Flynn Skidmore

28:58This is the thing that's really tough about depression in particular. This is something that I experienced and sometimes still experience. The projections of depression really feel true. They really feel like everyone is fake. The world is inauthentic. Like, fuck this. They really feel true. And it feels like if you were to leave that interpretation of the world, you would be abandoning truth. Does that make sense? And so then it's like, I could be happy, but then I would be abandoning truth. All of that is a projection. Yes, exactly. All of that is projection of the depressed persona, which is on top of the trapped feelings, which is burying the essence.

29:40So when we talk about identity, that's the wounded version of identity. Yeah. So if we were to think about, I think a lot of people now in our world, they think about identity in the way of leveraging a different identity, a future you identity to step into that. How would you think about identity in that way? I like that a lot. So what I, in almost anything that I'm thinking about, so here's how, here's how I experienced the world. Let's say there's the layer of material reality, like me and you in these chairs, but then there's also the energetic layer underneath that. And I think that the things that exist in the material world are expressions of or symptoms of the underlying patterns of energy or frequency.

30:31It's making sense. So like a body that's in a state of fear all the time will ultimately be a sick body, whereas a body that's perpetually in a state of joy will be an alive and healthy body. So when I'm always thinking about things in terms of either expansion or contraction, or love or fear, something like that. And when I'm thinking about a future self identity, I'm actually I'm primarily sensing into the frequency of what it is that I desire, which is expansiveness or love. And then what I'm doing is listening to how expansiveness would like to express itself in my material world. What is expansiveness's body like through me?

31:21How does expansiveness speak through me? What has expansiveness built? How is expansive a father through me? How is expansiveness a husband through me? It's like I'm meditating on the frequency and learning about how that frequency wants to be expressed in the material world. And if it seems aligned, then I'm just like, yep, I'll create that thing. So it's almost less like Flynn thinking about identity and more like learning about what God would like to create or expansiveness or something like that. We like God. We like God. We like God here. Okay. What God would like to create through. Yeah.

31:58Yeah. The future self. I'm just curious because I feel like traditionally when people think of therapy they're like okay we got to go in the past and we got to dig it up and we got to like excavate and look at it all and I think that's why a lot of people don't go to therapy because they're not wanting to do that yeah how do you kind of balance because I think some people I've definitely been in therapeutic situations where I'm like I think I'm done looking at this one thing, you know, whether it's like complete, or it's just like, it's actually not serving me to loop on this, or I'm curious how you balance between the past and the future and really kind of feeling into what you just described.

32:41Yeah, I love that. So, all right, there is a whole lot of evidence from different fields that suggests that the future has a greater influence on the present than does the past. There's something in systems theory or in like a particular field of mathematics where they look at something called an attractor state in the future. And that attractor state is like a galaxy which pulls stars into it, right? Now, one of, so let's say you have consciously created future attractors, like an expansive version of you in the future, that when your body in the present perceives that what is likely to be created in the future is expansiveness, you can be expansive right now.

33:38You're aligning with the future state. Does that make sense? But when people are operating unconsciously, what's happening is that they are unconsciously creating future states that are contracted future states, right? So if I like back to the wound of like, I'm not desirable, I if I've learned that I'm not desirable and created a whole persona around that and trapped feelings and all that kind of stuff, I'll likely be unconsciously creating future scenarios that put me in a state of contraction and continue to gather evidence that I am undesirable, right? So where most people in life, I think are super frustrated and dissatisfied is that they are unconsciously creating future states.

34:28And if the majority of the future states that I'm unconsciously creating are contracted ones, then it makes sense for my body to be contracted right now. My body is afraid of those future scenarios. So if that's happening, then I have moment to moment to moment to moment of contraction. Then my life becomes contraction. My relationships become wounded in contraction. My body becomes sick, all that sort of thing. So the past informs how the future is created, but it doesn't have to. People can see, oh, here is this thing that I'm predicting about what's going to happen in the future. And I can see how that's connected to experiences that I've had in the past.

35:16But that's not the only option. I could actually create something that's expansive here in the future. Now, one of the ways in which people get stuck with this is just trying to create the expansive future state, which is then often bypassing the former, the past version of them who learned to be hurt in a particular way. And what we can measure neurologically is like, if you're doing that, if you're like, if you're super wounded and you're like, everyone hates me, I'm not desirable. But then you're like pretending that you believe in a future state that you are, you're actually reinforcing the pain of the past self.

35:55The future state gets to be created as a result of having a super loving relationship with the past version. That's the thing that we can measure neurologically. When that past version is activated and you meet that past version with warmth and curiosity, it becomes alive and then the brain becomes capable of neuroplasticity and rewiring. And you can almost then work with that past version to be like, if unconditional love were available for you, what would you want to create? You became this person because you learned that love was scarce and that you'll be hurt. That completely makes sense. But if love were unconditionally available, what would you like to create instead?

36:38And then those past versions become integrated and part of the creation of the future state. And so that's how like, that's where the past work is valuable. But if it's just extracting the past, I don't think that it's doing much of anything, honestly. Yeah, well, so interesting, because when you're talking, I think about this with my clients. And even when I speak to broader groups, it's like, so much of this is like energetics and nuance that is specific to people it's like you know i spoke on stage this weekend and it's like i could tell people align with your future self and for part of them that would be good yeah because they've done the work to you know i mean they understand what that means like that and part of them they're bypassing and so it's so i don't think it's i guess hard's not the word but i've just been finding that more and more where i'm like there's such subtlety and nuance to each and every person that makes each and every situation so different.

37:33How do you think about that? I think that that is so true. And it's why I think it's, it's, it's a difficult thing, but I think that one-on-one work is the only way to, I think that a lot of people in their offerings will promise something like dream relationship in six months or something. I think that the thing that we're all speaking about here is something that takes like actually 10 years to cultivate. I think it takes a tremendous, And it's like we have this technology and we have to become masters of this technology, this spiritual technology. So I do think that one-on-one work is the most potent version of this.

38:15Because we all have heard the perspectives. Everyone, Dolores Cannon, Neville Godard, all the spiritual people, they all say the exact same thing. Get clear on what you want to create. how would you feel aligned with the frequency yeah then everyone is like but i don't align with the frequency or what happens if i'm in a state of fear and i and i think that being able to deeply teach people how to do that like it can be done in large at scale settings but i i think that one-on-one work is the most important for it i feel like yeah because that's what i was like thinking about recently with it i'm like if i was to tell someone what it is i'm like i've been doing this for 10 years and it's like this little thing led to this little thing led to this little thing led to this little thing.

38:58But I feel like in my one-on-one work too, it's like, my goal is to help them access self. And like, cause once you're, once you're like, my life began when I was like fully in self most of the time, you know, and then they can then create from that point. Cause that's the creative point is being in self from there. You're kind of, what do they want? What do I want? Like, what am I comparing myself to? You're kind of like running amok. How do you see self and the soul? Like, how do you relate to that? Amazing question. I have been thinking about, all right, this is how I've been thinking about it.

39:31If you were to sit in the forest for a week straight, like maybe have food and just observe what happens in your observable reality, nature would be in a state of steadiness and smoothness and organization, probably 90 % of the time. 90 % of the time would just be like wind, birds, it would be what I would call expressions of love. That's what love is, is the 90 % default state of how nature, how non-human nature operates. Maybe 10 % of the time, there would be some kind of a destructive energy, like a tree falling or an animal, a predator hunting a prey, but it's only destructive in like the tree falling, then of course becomes nourishment for the soil, right?

40:23It's not actually a destructive bad thing. It's just a loud moment. You know what I'm saying? I think that human beings have reversed that ratio and are living about 90 % of the time in loud moments and then having to repress the noise. But I think that love is the default state or what we might be calling the self. It's the self for me is the self. It's the thing that is connected with infinite love, infinite steadiness, like a metronome. That's just a smooth, beautiful rhythm. And then anything that's like fear or sadness or grief or pain are all beautiful things that are part of the dynamic and just part of this sustenance of life.

41:10but they happen in very brief moments of time. And I think about the self as the default state that is in a state of unconditional and infinite love that just lovingly holds those moments of destructiveness or fear. But I'm beginning to think about emotions. I'm not thinking of love or joy as emotions anymore. I'm thinking of love and joy as the thing that exists at the baseline. and the emotions are the fear and the sadness and the uncomfortable things. And it's learning to relate to and learning to relate to those moments from the perspective of love. Mm-hmm. That's a good one.

41:56How do you, so when you are working with someone, like, do you very directly bring that conversation, kind of that more spiritual conversation into the room? Like, how do you navigate that? Because I think some people are so down and others are kind of like feel very disconnected or they don't relate to that aspect of their life yet. But do you bring that into the room when you're working with people? I think because if anyone is reaching out to work with me, they've listened to a lot of, they've consumed a lot of the content that I've created. and they're a person who's like just about where I'm at in terms of these perspectives.

42:38Like they know the perspective sometimes even better than I do. I have clients all the time who are like sharing ideas and insights and perspectives with me that are mind blowing to me. Um, and really what they're looking for is, uh, not a sparring partner because it's not fight energy, but someone who's a match for them to be able to relationally go deeper into these things because they need a mirror who understands. So I'm, I actually don't know if I've ever had a person who wasn't someone who might describe themselves as spiritually oriented. I recently, like in a family friend context, heard someone say, Oh, I don't believe in energy.

43:20And I didn't say anything, but I had a lot to say about that. But that was an interesting reminder to me, like, Oh, there are people in the world who would say i don't believe in energy it's like well there's nothing to like believe it it's just like what is happening it's such a weird comment it's actually not even about what they said yes you know what i'm saying it's like it's like i it could be the subtext is like i'm sick of all this spiritual talk exactly yeah yes yes you know so it's like it's like what they said yeah the thing yes actually i'm like that's a trauma response literally i'm like saying a comment like that.

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47:35on that point of of judgment um you had a series of posts recently about judgment and i would just love to talk about that because i think all of us experience some sort of judgment in our day to day maybe some more than others and i think especially at this current time in the world. You know, there's just lots going on and how deep you are in it or how not deep you are in it. It's a spectrum for people. But what would you what would you say about judgment and how people are holding on to it? And what really is that energy at its truest form? I really, really like that. So broadly, I love judgment.

48:18What I even in what we were just saying with, like, I don't believe in energy. I love what you said that it's actually not about the words. That's like, for me, the truest thing that is happening in any given moment is not about the interpretations or the words. Those can be beautiful things, but it's about the experience in the body. Like we are biological systems and what biological systems have evolved to do is to either expand or contract. They expand in the presence of perceived nourishment and contract in the presence of perceived threat. So if that person is saying, I don't believe in energy, it's actually not a conversation about is energy real.

49:00It's a conversation about what is your internal state when you are saying that is, are you expansive when you're saying that? And if their answer is yes, and, and also they want to be expansive, because I don't want to like project or push expansiveness on anyone. But if they've made a commitment through their life to saying, I am committed to expansiveness and finding all of the loops of contraction in my mind and in my psyche and transforming those contraction patterns into expansive ones, and then that person is saying, I don't believe in energy. And when they are saying that they're contracted, then there's something to do, you know, but if they're expansive, when they're saying that, and that's something that only they could know, then I don't think that there's really anything to be done.

49:44So it's not for me, not so much. And that's why like saying that is a trauma response, because I would bet my life that when that person is saying that they're in a contracted state. And the irony of it is that unconsciously, they're hoping that having an identity of like rejecting energy, successfully achieving that identity will get them the love, safety and belonging that they're looking for, and then they'll be expansive. So they're using contraction to unconsciously try to get expansion, rather than choosing expansion, and then wondering about how expansion might perceive something like energy.

50:23You know, I think you could even put that. I don't, I'm just going to place it in the room. We don't need to go there. But it's like, I think you could even think about that. Or I'm thinking about that more on the macro level of even like, war the world, like people expect to be contracted in the way that they're operating in the world from like a activist level to be like more expansive do you know what i mean like by like going at one thing in certain way of like fighting certain things but then desiring to like out of more fear and out of more contraction with the desire to have a more expansive future in the end yeah yes but the thing i want to talk about emotions you know like because you were mentioning we were talking a little about how to relate to emotions i think about this a lot i'm not sure where I've landed in it because I've read a lot of information on emotions being kind of like our indicator, kind of like our guide and emotions being incredibly important.

51:16And I've also thought about it from like the Buddhist perspective where it's like emotions really mean nothing and they just pass us by. So it's either emotions are everything and need to be tended to in that way or emotions are nothing. How do you see emotions? That's such a good question. I come across the same exact problem. It's that different perspectives say different things about it. To simplify for myself, I operate in a very binary way of expansion or contraction. But there's nuance in that I don't think it's ever 100 % one or the other. I think that if a person were to figure out how to be 100 % expansive, that actually the material world wouldn't need to exist anymore.

51:59It's like the universe figured that out. And now we don't need this three-dimensional space anymore. And if they were 100 % contraction, they would be dead. So I don't think it's ever one or the other entirely. But with something like relating to emotions, well, I have devoted my life to expansion. And just to be clear about what I mean by that is... Money. What's that? Money, yeah. Money, money, like the Lamborghini yesterday. Yes, literally. In neon green. Or EBITDA. That's hilarious. What I mean by that is aware of, especially the patterns that I engage in that are fear-oriented patterns and transforming those fear patterns into patterns that are loving, that play a musical note in my body that is coherent.

52:59And I actually think that the greatest contribution that a single person can make to the world, kind of what you're referring to a bit with the activism piece, is the transformation of the fear within themselves into love. There's some evidence that suggests that when a person does that, like truly transforms a wound, that becomes available for the collective, not just humans, but like animals and plants and trees. And I just think about that. I think about earth as a musical note. And if I want that musical note to be beautiful, that where the leverage is that is in making my musical note beautiful, steady and smooth.

53:40And when I find jaggedness, I just learned to meet that jaggedness in a way where it reconnects with its desire to be smooth. So that's the like, overall commitment to my life. Now, when it comes to emotions, because my commitment is to expansiveness, for me, the task or the challenge is how to be a paradox, how to be simultaneously expansive and deeply afraid or sad or grieving to be both at the same time. And the question that I'm asking myself is, when I'm trapped in a loop of fear, or whatever it is, how would expansiveness relate to that fear? How would it speak to it? What would its energetic presence be like?

54:36And can the fear sense the presence of the expansiveness. And that's what I think the alchemists were really talking about when they're talking about the philosopher's stone is being in the heart and understanding how to relate to love from the perspective of fear. So that's what I do with emotions, but I don't know if that's right or wrong. I just find that to be like the most effective and enjoyable. Can you give an example of that? Like if you're, if you are in a session with someone and they are experiencing an emotion out of fear, like how would you kind of walk them through that? Okay. Not to, I'm not testing you.

55:17I'm just like very curious what that looks like in practice. Prove it. I love that. Sounds great. Prove it. This is, I actually, what you're asking is the challenge of my life because I haven't been able to figure out how to explain it in a step-by-step way. I would really like to. So much of it, I'm sure, is like being in that literal like music with them. It's like the arguing. It's a collective consciousness. Exactly. It's like I know, but I can try and explain some things. I know like because I know how to do that with myself I can just be it for others and I almost go into like a blackout state where I just know what to ask and how to relate to them in a particular way.

56:10the how to do it, I'm not super clear on in a step by step way, but an analogy that I've been using that is that I think is helpful. So if you think about a drummer who's playing in a really annoying and like non-rhythmically way, you could approach that drummer and be like, shut the fuck up. Like, what are you doing? Which would increase the likelihood that that person is out of rhythm, right? You're making them defend themselves. You're meeting incoherence with incoherence. Does that make sense? Jagged, jagged, jagged, jagged, jagged, which then multiplies jaggedness. If you trust that all systems, not just life systems, but think about how galaxies form, I mean, I didn't see this, so I don't know.

57:01But what seems to make sense is that there was immense chaos and then everything figured out how to be organized. Chaotic systems have a memory of organization and coherence and seem to desire coherence. and in order for a chaotic system to become coherent it just needs to be in the presence of coherence so rather than telling that drummer that he's a fucking idiot like being a metronome that enters the space and maybe he never hears the metronome or maybe at some point his body and his mind realize that he's not being judged and he's not being forced to be different he's just being offered something that already exists within himself.

57:45And then maybe because he's not feeling judged, his body can sense the rhythm, and then he's able to remember the rhythm within himself. And it just seems to be clear that it is more enjoyable to play rhythmically than it is to play non-rhythmically. So we don't even have to force morality on the drummer. We don't have to say you're a good person if you play rhythmically. We can let pleasure do the thing if he's connected to that within himself. It wants to become alive and to play rhythmically and to be expressive in a way that is beneficial to everyone around him. So that is what I'm helping people do with themselves.

58:26It's meeting people as this warm, steady, caring metronome without forcing them to change anything and then helping them be that for themselves. Yeah, it's a beautiful explanation. It makes me think of just with like children, toddlers, like kind of being that calm, calming presence. And if they're having, say, a meltdown or something like that and allowing them to whether it's like they say borrow your nervous system or like attune to you eventually, but not not asking them any questions, not saying, hey, you better stop crying or else this, like not asking them to be anything other than what they are.

59:07who they are and what they're experiencing, but being that steady. Yes, a steady presence. And a really interesting thing to think about with babies and toddlers. So if a baby, if an infant is screaming and the mother, because it's usually the mother, actually because the reason that moms tend to wake up is that whoever becomes the primary caregiver of the baby, their amygdala becomes enlarged. So they're more sensitive to markers of threat and fear in the environment. So they're sleeping less lightly. It's one of the things that moms are the ones who get up. But the dads could establish themselves as the primary caregiver if they really wanted to.

59:48And then they're amygdala. Just a thing to consider. So the mom goes into the room with the crying infant. If the mom were trying to perform calmness and were like, it's okay, it's okay. that actually increases the baby's experience of threat. Whereas if she's like, oh, it's okay, it's okay. She's matching the intensity, but in a controlled way. And the matching of the intensity actually affirms for the baby that there's like a valid reason to be crying. And then she can calm them down together. So it's an interesting, and that to me speaks to, isn't that fascinating? I was like, oh, I thought it would like kind of stir it up.

1:00:31Yeah, you think you'd have to be the other, the opposite. Right. You think you have to be the opposite, but it's like a meeting and then a controlling down. And that to me speaks to what we were talking about with 90 percent love in a forest and 10 percent like like intensity and loudness is a thing that exists. And so the mother doesn't like need to not be loud with the baby. It's just about being with the current rhythm in a loving, caring way and then trusting the steadiness over time. Love that. It's cool, right? Yeah, that is very cool. When I'm held with people, I like them to meet me in my intensity.

1:01:08Yeah. Like if I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, we're just like, yes, I like to be met. And then I don't like when someone's like, mm-hmm. Yeah. It's annoying. Yeah. It's actually triggering to me. And then it's like, I'm validating. I just, what's your problems? Yes. I know. Right. On the one hand, it is triggering because it's like this thing that I care about. Like, why are you not experiencing an amplified frequency as well? But then it can also be triggering. Like if you've had your internal experience invalidated and things that you thought were problems, people gaslit you and all that.

1:01:42But yes, it's a real thing. Like matching the frequency, but then trusting. It's like. Yeah. yeah i have a friend that's so good at that she's just like immaculate at matching free like she's like a master but i think about i think the metronome thing is so powerful because it's almost like vibrationally yes you know like if there's a vibrational element to it there's like entrainment element to it and then for parts like parts work is like what i usually do so it's like allowing the part to feel validated and allowing the part to feel safe so it's like the presenting part that's like hey i'm having this experience having this thing it's like i see you like I love you no matter how you are I'm going to stay the same like I'm not going anywhere I'm staying the same I'm staying consistent like my part's not going to come out because it's like testing to see if a part's going to come out instead of self and in um no bad parts by Dick Schwartz he talks about how self cultivates self and I think actually that's why I've found that coaching relationships are so important is because me staying in self brings forth self like it's a repeated self but most of the time with people in life they're unconscious part to unconscious part relating.

1:02:44Yes. And so when you finally meet self and therapists are often a good representative of someone's first self meeting, like that was, maybe I had met selves before, but that was probably the first consistent self, you know, that I had to sort of calibrate too. So yeah, I just think that's so beautiful for, for people to think about. And I'm just like processing that also the note thing, you know, it's so funny as I watched this thing years ago, when I was in my Gaia phase. I was watching everything in Gaia. Like it was just like the rabbit holes that I went on. But there was this whole thing about each planet is a specific note, like a music note in the universe.

1:03:23And like they just play different notes. Then I also talked about how the rings of Saturn are all vibrational frequencies and they don't stay consistent. So it's actually like music. Like if you actually went to Saturn, you'd hear like sounds of music and notes. Oh, cool. Isn't

1:03:40And for, okay, so if we're in the space of psychology, that's like psychoanalysis and CBT and validate yourself, there are certain practices that I think are effective in that space. But I think that in terms of like really mastering the technology of being a human, the spirit and what it's like to have consciousness in an inner world, I think that understanding sound dynamics is much more important than anything that's in the space of psychology. It's understanding how frequencies interact and having a sense of when you are being a certain type of frequency and understanding how those frequencies can evolve and morph over time.

1:04:25Like I, that is what I, when I'm doing stuff in my internal world, I'm very rarely saying anything to a self and I think, or to a part. And I think that that's one of the things that I see people getting a little bit tripped up with, with inner child work is they think that the thing to do is to be like, oh my God, you're hurt. I love you so much. Come here. And to like force a hug. I actually think that the much more empowering thing to do is to be the unconditional presence of love and let the part or the inner child make a choice about who it wants to be in the presence of that thing rather than imposing an experience on it.

1:05:11Do you know what I'm saying? That's another part. Exactly. And I could hear when you're explaining that, that you know that because that's another part who is performing what they think love is supposed to be rather than actually being open to how love might be expressed. I think that's the, some of the, a lot of my women are on the edge of breakthrough. They've done tons of work. And so that's like, actually a lot of the work is the working with the parts that are the spiritual part, the teacher part, like the healer part where they're like, I went to my inner child and I put her in my lap and I put like, you know, essential oils on her wrists and I did all this stuff.

1:05:46I'm like, that's not self. Yes. I'm like, leave your inner child. That's why I had like trouble with EMDR at times. Oh, say less. You know, where you're like, you know, you're in the room with your, your little girl. And like, I could go there. But I also think there was a part of me, I'm former actress, so I could be like, I'm here. Oh my God, totally. She has a tear. Yes, totally. You know, so it's like, I wasn't actually able to, on an energetic level actually kind of feel what was happening i was like projecting this scene yes and how could i make it as interesting as possible to tell my therapist what's actually totally you know it's like such a weird person but i think for some people it totally works yeah but on that like do you have any i think there are so many approaches to therapy and different modalities.

1:06:38Do you see any certain modality as being like, like not helpful at all across the board? Wow. Or is it just specific? Not across the board. I like CBT, for instance, is it's cognitive behavioral therapy is the least inspiring to me. It's yeah, it's like, it's like, oh, you're experiencing this trouble in your relationship. How do we find an empowering reframe and it's like helping you figure out different it's very heady and i do think i mean i guess it's it's demonstrated to be effective but i'm the least inspired by that for me that's the most like conventional mainstream psychology and the furthest away from under understanding sound dynamics which i think is really the thing that gets people to where they want to go um There's something called coherence therapy that was created by this guy named Bruce Ecker.

1:07:37And what Bruce Ecker has done is use neurology to understand what conditions must be present in order for someone to permanently or nearly permanently transform a wound, a psychological wound. And the processes of coherence therapy are the things that are happening in parts work, in internal family systems, or in EMDR, or in any of the more like body oriented, internal world oriented ones. But it's also the thing that's happening when a person is on like a plant medicine or psychedelics or something like that. It's the principles of relating to yourself in a way so that neuroplasticity is possible.

1:08:25So I really like Bruce Ecker's work. He explains the mechanisms of how this stuff happens really well.

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1:13:21And I think about that a lot because I think a lot of women, whether you're single or in relationship, it feels safer and easier to heal outside of relationship so much. I found it more beautiful and potent. I've had some of the deepest healing in relationship, whether it's friendship or romantic, but it's also the space where you get wounded. So how do you see relational healing? Like how would we heal the wounds that we get in relationship and relationship? It's an amazing question. So I think that one of the challenging things in really, one of the reasons why relationships can be so painful is it's like this very unique environment where we're playing out all of the core wounds that we got from zero to seven.

1:14:21And I think that in many ways, people consciously and unconsciously choose, attract, and are attracted to each other romantically so that their deepest unconscious wounds can get revealed to them so that they have an opportunity to transform them. One of the parts about healing within the context of relationships that is super difficult is when someone else's pain, like a pattern of pain through their life, causes the other person pain. And then the person who's had the pain through their life has to learn how to be present for the way in which their pain causes another person pain. From an IFS perspective, that requires deep capacity to be self as they relate to their own pain, taking ownership of the choices that they've made and taking ownership of the ways in which that the choices that they've made have particular consequences in their relationship right now.

1:15:27But people seem to be very afraid of that. I think people are afraid of taking tremendous levels of personal responsibility, because I don't know exactly why, like, the thing that I find is that people are afraid of being in trouble, or they're afraid of their they have this deep fear that something is inherently wrong with them. And if they take responsibility, it would be admitting that something is inherently wrong, something like that. But I think one of the most beautiful things that people can do for each other, especially when there's trauma in a relationship is take responsibility or is to to be present with the pain in the other person that comes up in relationship to the pain in you and that's a really it is a very hard thing to do I think too it's also you know how you relate to their bringing up of the pain is how you relate to your own pain internally 100 you know because I'm like I think about that I'm like okay what would be annoying about that to me after yeah you know like yes and I'd be like shut up yes you know and it's like but then there's parts in me that are expressing pain and I'm like shut up yeah you know like stop so it's like but it is and there's it's so interesting because this is more the nuance because there's a truth of of the deep pain that a part is bringing up that they've experienced through the trauma of their relationship and then there's also kind of the continued this is also probably a part that's talking it's like I'm like, they continued marching on the drum of like the issue, you know, like where it's like, okay, where, cause a lot of it's acknowledging and relating and then healing together.

1:17:00And then you actually have to tend to the part, like to become the anchor for safety, which is like, I think what people struggle with, do you feel like without self or without the internal anchor that it's possible. No, I, I, I don't, I think the way to transform wounds in a relationship in any dynamic, but in like a romantic relationship dynamic is to choose to be, to both be expansive together as you relate to the wound. So let's say a person is coming into the relationship with a particular pattern that ends up being hurtful for the other person, if both people are contracting as they're having a conversation about that wound, both of their wounds will continue.

1:17:55Someone else's pain in their life is their pain. And the way that that creates pain in another person is about the other person. Do you know what I'm saying? It reveals shadows in them. It's not actually, is that clear? And both people, I think, have to be committed to expansively exploring their shadows to be committed to that so that they can be together as they are expansively exploring shadows. And I don't think that it needs to be perfect. I don't think it ever could be perfect. I think it's valuable to embrace it as a practice. Like, this is who we are. Our standard is to practice expansiveness as we speak about painful things and take ownership, and to notice when we are contracting when we're speaking about painful things, and to be self for the contraction so that we can continue to practice expansion together.

1:18:55because I can imagine that unconsciously people are entering into relationship hoping that the other person either soothes or makes them soothes the thing the wound makes them forget about the wound you know fixes it all together and so you're saying that while you can be expansive together and tending to these things ultimately it's about you tending to it yourself yeah and what would you say to someone or actually let me put it this way in your work do you find that people are I'm going to say this and it's going to sound a little like not sensitive but I hope it comes across where they're using that wound as kind of a way to get attention yeah even though the wound is real?

1:19:50100%. Let's talk about wound examples too. What are we talking about? Okay, great. So one thing that came up in a small group on relationships that I was running recently was this person who has a pattern of having panic attacks. So... I just rolled my eyes. Just kidding. Just kidding. That was my mom, my whole life. Hilarious. That's hilarious. Everywhere we went with panic attacks, we didn't want to be there. Ah, interesting. Yeah. So, okay, here's... that what I, what we explored with this person was that she, maybe she can cope with the panic attacks and maybe she can figure out how to live life in such a way where she doesn't have symptoms of panic attacks anymore.

1:20:34But like there's, there's a version of dealing with that particular wound where you're just repressing it and making it dormant. And then a version of relating to that wound where you truly transform it. The level of transformation that I'm interested in is a transformation that is so true and deep that it becomes my DNA so that that trait would get passed down to my kids. You know what I'm saying? Not like a superficial, like pretend this doesn't exist, like a deep transformation of this thing. Most people are in the space of pretend that it doesn't exist. And that's, for me, it's just not inspiring to me.

1:21:14So if this person desires the deep transformation of this pattern of panic attacks, she, it asks her to acknowledge that the panic attacks are a strategy to get attention. And that's very hard for people to admit to themselves. And when we were talking, she was super cool and open to it, like, super inspiring how open she was to this. And we were talking about it. She was like, maybe, but I don't really do it for attention because I go in my room and I don't let anyone see it. My position is that there's no thing that we do that's alone. We are always performing for what I refer to as a chorus of judges, like a group of people that exist in our mind who we're sort of bidding for attention and approval into.

1:22:05So the example that I like to use, which I find is hilarious, is knowing like college frat kids will drink shower beers like a Coors Light or like a Keystone Light in the shower. There is no way that that person actually likes drinking that in the shower. You know what I'm saying? So if they do it alone, it has to be because they are collecting evidence for themselves to bid their case to their chorus of judges that they are shower beer guys. It has to be that, which is fine. Like, that's funny. But I think it's so important to take ownership of how even when we're alone, we're performing for a group of people.

1:22:45So as we were speaking about the panic attacks, and she's like, yeah, you know, I actually keep it to myself. And then, like, we kind of got into, like, were your parents attuned to your inner world? like, like, did you feel like you had to make really loud noises in order for them to finally care about you in a way like, it wasn't that straight up, because I don't like being wound projector onto people. But ultimately, we found that like, yes, this is what is happening. The panic attacks are a strategy to be loved and to be cared for. It's important to understand that I think every single thing that we do is in part a strategy to have status and have attention in particular.

1:23:28I think that even the sound of my voice, I have constructed it over time in a particular way to project a certain identity and stuff, like everything. And I think it's super important to take ownership of the things that we do that are strategies to get attention. So So that is an example of like, it's a wound. That person has learned that in order to bond and in order to be loved the way that she desires, she has to be sick or she has to be on the edge of death, right? And that won't be deeply transformed until she learns to meet the part of herself who is focused on the external world, focused on her parents, hoping that her parents' love gets her the safety that she's looking for.

1:24:11and she's got to learn to help that part see that infinite safety exists within herself and i think emotionally psychologically and spiritually that is the thing that would allow for something like panic attacks to not have to exist anymore it's crazy when we recruit the body to be involved yeah you know like where we're like okay it's not enough we're gonna like we need back i need the body to be involved in this part of the panic attack yeah i had this experience the other day where i was like i was contracting and i actually really like that it was in relationship i was contracting. And I was like in my contraction and I was like, what is my true desire in this contraction?

1:24:46I was like, for him to come forward. You know, I was like, I want in this contraction for him to come closer. And I was like witnessing, I was like, oh, that's interesting. And I was like, okay, what's the brave thing? I was like, okay, so notice the contraction, talk about the contraction and talk about the actual desire. The actual desire is for this to happen, but just witnessing that. But it's interesting in the - I just want to emphasize like that. I, that is huge to me that like what you just described, I think is if there's a set of five skills that are the most important skills, I think in the world, uh, one of those five would be what you just explained, which is awareness of the actual goal.

1:25:27Yeah. What is the truth? Oh, what is the truth of what I want here? And can I accept the truth of what I'm looking to get here? and is my current strategy the most effective and alive in order to produce what I want yeah or is there a better option available I like that if like just what you said to me is like the deepest thing imaginable and I just don't want people to gloss over how important I have such a deep uh freedom in my in my system and in myself where everything's okay you know so like the part like it's like so that whenever that part says that like no I actually want this that's okay.

1:26:05You know, the other part's like, Oh, okay, let's constrict and hide. And that's okay too. But then we can get like this part safe and can tell me what, and then this part safe and can tell me what, and then it can be okay that I'm acting in discrepancy of that, you know, that discrepancy of, okay, we're not doing what we want. That's okay. Like what is the strategy now? And sometimes it's, I'm going to stay here in this and still constrict and that's fine. And sometimes it's like, okay, what's the choice here is the choice to communicate and create more intimacy and communication because that's the vulnerability piece you know that's like how can we be vulnerable but i just think it's i i remember learning that in um one of my coaching trainings was just like i don't even know what we were talking about we were relating to the fact of like oftentimes you're doing the opposite of what you're trying to achieve so if you're mad at someone and yelling you actually want them to come close you know so just how often we and our protection are pushing away people when we want them closer and kind of noticing when we're in those sort of push pull dynamics of like going in your room with the panic attack but you actually want people to come into the room yes and how can we be more in truth with ourselves about that and then be more in truth with others because then we can kind of catch like oh i want to be close because oftentimes too for me everything is it like for me i'm such a connection you know connection is my kryptonite so I'm like okay it's true that I want more connection in this like I'm feeling disconnected I want more connection how can I sort of get more connection but yeah last thing I'll say is like it's been interesting just in my process of growth like to me like a moment like that is like such a win you know like I can do big things like speak in front of people or be successful in certain ways but I'm like people having those skills like those soft skills of there's in the moment, deeper intimacy, deeper transformation, deeper connection is like the huge wins of life.

1:27:57And that's like the core foundation of like true joy, because then you come out of that, knowing that you want, know yourself on such a deep level that you respect yourself, that you're not self-abandoning. And I think so much of people's lack of joy or inability to actually access that is that disconnection. Yes. Yes. But I was going to say about the connection piece sometimes i'll just ask myself like are you trying to make a bid for connection uh-huh yeah you know because it's just like i need to ask myself that actually often because it comes out in sneaky ways where i'm like again doing the opposite of like what i actually want and it's actually helped my marriage to call it out and be like actually i think and it's corny to say but we've kind of made a habit out of it where i was like i think this is a bid for connection yeah and i just need to call it out yeah awesome and then it just kind of like my awareness actually makes his like what is this fall soften and he's like oh you know what this is yeah so i don't feel the need to be like a ninja around you like what is happening exactly yes it's actually it's deeply aggravating for me when people aren't aware of what they're doing and what they're it's and it is so soothing self-awareness is number one from relationships i would say even over growth because self-awareness indicates growth yes in the deepest and self-awareness is safe because i'm like you see the thing you're aware of the thing we're both safe in the thing yes you know what i mean it's like it's just my friends like it's like they they just know like i had one friend recently who just started dating and she got into this pattern of like like really deep, intense connections with men and just all of a sudden started program for it.

1:29:46She's like, I just noticed I was in a pattern of deep connections and like almost like a love addiction. And now I'm in a program for it. Just like, you know, two weeks in, I'm like, that's like so incredible to just be like in so such self-ownership. And that's like true self love where you can see yourself and be like, okay, there's, let's go through this. Like, let's work through that. But it's funny because I think for a lot of people, they don't go to therapy or do the work because they think that they love themselves, but it's just the part is being really good at like their performance.

1:30:15That's a hundred percent true. That's why I think that body awareness is the most important thing because there's really no lying to yourself about whether you're in a state of expansion or contraction. You, there's just, when you're paying attention to that, it's just, it's so clear, but it is very easy to lie to yourself about loving yourself, performing the actions of loving yourself, but not actually having the sensory experience. So that's like almost all I pay attention to is sensory experience. And like, I enjoy the things and the words and all that. But for me, it's just the closest to the truth of reality that we can access.

1:30:57So that's like vibratory. Okay, so sorry, a little bit back to the relationship. So if someone's in relationship, and they're like, I was cheated on, or I have, I don't trust men, or whatever, how would I use my relationship container to heal? Like, what would that look like? Yeah, if I so if if a woman is saying, I don't trust men, and like, maybe like there are layers around my heart, and it's difficult to open up my heart to you. And And that's painful for you, like a dynamic like that. So the first thing that I think is important to establish is that no one has to want to be evolved or to evolve or to grow or to freely open their heart and like not have any protective mechanisms.

1:31:47I don't think that's like a thing that anyone has to do. That's what I want to do because it's what inspires me, but it's a choice to be made. So both people can choose that they want to be people who don't operate in the world with protective mechanisms, just full-hearted and open. Now, what is probably, okay, so trust. A lot of people will use the word trust as like a trait or a quality. Like, oh, they are trustworthy. I like to think about trust as pattern prediction. So if my friend comes over to my house and helps with the dishes every single time, I can predict a pattern that they will continue to do that.

1:32:36And I like that. And that's expansive for me. Right. If someone else, whenever they stay at my house, when I'm out of town, like leaves a mess, I can trust that that's what they'll do unless there's some kind of intervention. Right. The thing about those kinds of patterns is if I tell that person the truth about leaving my house a mess and they were to say, you know what, that's just who I want to be. That's how I operate. I'm going to continue doing this. Then I get to make a choice about if I let them stay over. But if I truly offer them the space without making them wrong for it, but just saying, does this align with who you want to be?

1:33:16And they're like, no, it actually doesn't. I want to be tidy person. And this is this wounded thing that I do, or like, sometimes I'm not going to consider it, whatever. We're like, okay, cool. Now we can use our relationship to help you be that person, the person that you want to be, right? So trust for me is pattern prediction. So when a person is saying in a relationship, like, I don't trust men, what I would do is get curious about what it is that she does trust. What pattern is she predicting? What's she expecting to happen. And what's an example that you can think of, like from what a woman might say, like what she...

1:33:54What she doesn't trust? What she actually does expect to happen. Oh, so the negative thing she expects to happen. Exactly. Oh, he's going to disappoint her. Yeah. Okay. Right. So now we get into the realm of self-trust. If she is making it other people's responsibility to disappoint her to not disappoint her, then she's always going to be protected. She's always going to have this thing of like protecting her heart and not being open. Remember, we were speaking about future outcomes before. So her past is setting her up to consciously and unconsciously predict a future where she's disappointed.

1:34:33It's going to look a particular way, right? But the thing that matters is not the guy leaving or not whatever happens. The thing that really matters is how she is predicting her body will respond to that experience. So if she's unconsciously seeing it as inevitable that she'll be contracted in that state because it means that she's rejectable or unlovable or something like that, then she won't open her heart up. Her body will be avoiding that future outcome. What self-trust is, we have to be specific about what exactly we're trusting. What we want that person to be able to do is to be unconditionally expansive.

1:35:15For her to know that she could go to the deepest layers of her own personal hell and be light in that place. She could be in the worst, scariest environment and be expansive and have her energy be so expansive that she illuminates expansiveness and the demons and helps them remember how to sing and dance. she needs to know that no matter what this this guy chooses to do she will be expansive and when she deep when her body in this moment right now knows that about herself then there's nothing to be afraid of there's no loss of love the reward of love is in the present in the giving of love right now it's not in the manipulation of getting someone to behave a certain way because you're loving them.

1:36:02So that for me is the place to work towards, the standard to hold is that love, the reward of love exists in the moment of giving it. And you get to access that when you are a person who practices the conscious creation of expansive futures, even in your scariest, worst case scenarios. Powerful. My last question is just around in your work, especially with couples, is there anything that you observe that gives you a really clear indication that this is not going to work or this is not an aligned relationship? So just thinking about if what I'm going to say is true, uh, a vast majority of the people, the, for the people who I've worked with for multiple years, they've left their relationship.

1:37:06Their choice to be in that relationship came from a version of them who wasn't committed to alignment and didn't truly know what alignment was. So they were unconsciously choosing attracting and attracted to misaligned non-aligned dynamics and the way one of the so I within the last few months got engaged to someone her name is Julia and she's like just the best and it happened it happened pretty fast the reason that I just knew it was the right thing, which I've spent a lot of time in relationships that weren't the right thing and pretending it was the right thing and like performing love to try and get the person to feel safe.

1:38:04So actually, so they would change. Like I've done a lot of that. The experience with her, the way that I can describe it is that every cell in my body wants her essence. Like if I could drink her essence, every cell in my body would be open to it. I fully want to absorb her energy. That doesn't mean that things are perfect. But for me, that's the foundational piece of it, like a true expansiveness in relationship with the essence of who she is. The truth is, is that when I explore relationship things with people, and they're really telling me the truth, it's not 100 % full openness to the essence of the other.

1:38:49They don't want to fully drink the other person's essence. There are parts of their body that contract and resist. And that could be like a trauma response thing. So I think that it does actually require, in my case, like 15 years of intentional work for me to really know what a true yes is. But most of the time, if people are being really honest with themselves, they don't actually love the other person's full essence. And they are using love as a manipulative tactic to try and get them to change, hoping that that person's essence will change, but it won't. I think that last thing, it's like, I think, I'm sure your fiance had to have ability to have her essence be accessed too.

1:39:38Such a good point. You know, so I think a lot of people don't have an accessible essence. essence so she um there I remember the exact moment where I sensed her essence because she didn't let me in for a really long time we've like been in communication for years and her some of her best friends were um girls that I grew up with here in New York but we didn't know each other until later in life and um okay so she followed I knew who she was because I saw her on the friend stories like this woman is like on another level but I didn't do anything and then at some point and I think in 2021 she followed me and I like shot my shot fumbled the bag tremendously I asked her to zoom which she thinks is the worst thing that I did that which is so funny um anyway like a few years of of talking but like I I almost had like a fantasy of who this person was like so fly, so tasteful, so talented.

1:40:42But I didn't really know her essence. And even in conversation with her, I didn't know her essence because she had layers of protection up. And there was this one moment where we were DMing, just like talking about something. And she sent me this emoji. And I was like, can you just tell me what that means? There's many ways to interpret this emoji because it's actually the emoji of the person sitting like this. And it always kind of looks like a spank emoji to me. So I'm like, are you asking for that? Like, what is this? And she was like, you know, what it means is that I like you, but I'm unsure of like what your intentions are and what you're doing here.

1:41:25And in that exchange, I just felt the truth of her sweetness. I and then over time, the practice has been like creating conditions that are safe enough for her to be able to like, like let that sweetness amplify. But I felt it in my body. I was like, oh, my God. And it wasn't like just in that moment. It was like over the course of maybe 20 minutes. Like if this like if this person is this sweet, like I have to have this. I have to be close to this. but yeah she's had a lot of experiences in her life as many women have and people in general where she's learned that it's not safe to be sweet in that way so of course she's learned to calcify it but it's a really beautiful experience in this relationship at least helping her understand that it's safe in this context to be that way so beautiful beautiful thank you yeah yeah this has been so fun i know you should do a part two i really like this i thought i really liked this conversation a lot yeah it was really good thank you thank you i was like wow i'm it's funny because like like the way you're talking about space in some concepts like for some people that's out there i'm like for me i'm like i'm right here yeah you yeah yeah yeah i was like weirdly enough i'm right here yes i'm so happy so where can people connect with you and find more?

1:42:49Most of the content I post is on Instagram. I recently started a private podcast. I put it behind a$12 paywall, which I'm really enjoying. I think that if people are interested in more, I have a free newsletter and that podcast is I did that because I historically have told truths that are kind of wild truths to share about my inner world. Now, as I'm moving in the direction of family and having kids, it feels better to just have a closer circle. So I'm telling even wilder truths, but just in a cozier container. And I think that's a great place to start if people are interested. You are so great.

1:43:29Thank you. Yeah, thank you both so much. All right, guys, we'll see you later. Bye. Love you, bye.

1:43:36Thank you so much, Flynn, for coming on the show. That is Flynn Skidmore, Flynn Skidmore on Instagram, flinskidmore.com. Thank you all for listening. two episodes every single week. So make sure you're subscribed. Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Adam's 30 podcast, subscribe on YouTube. And if you're looking for just shorter clips of the show to inspire you and just kick off your day, head over to Morning Microdose, our other show. We love you guys. We'll see you soon. Bye. Bye.