859. Why You Still Feel Stuck in Love (Even After Doing the Work)

24:04It's like, okay, here's your attachment cell. What's the point of just knowing it unless you can change it? Like there's no point. Otherwise people just identify with it, label themselves that. And so the work that we built through integrated attachment theory was like, here's somebody's attachment style. Here's what your core wounds are going to be, your needs, your nervous system, your boundaries, and your communication patterns. And here's how to literally rewire them all at the subconscious level so that everything can then work much more effectively. And your set point is to be secure because what secure people have is less triggers.

24:33They know their needs. They know how to communicate them. They have healthy boundaries and their nervous system is regulated. So we're just like reverse engineering that process. Wow. It's powerful that you and your, there's so many places I want to go, but just to say this, it's powerful that you and your husband both had your fearful avoidance, but still moved forward. Yeah. So he was dismissive avoidant. Which is? The more avoidant one. I can do it. Yeah. I would love that. Yeah. So the first one that everybody's trying to move towards, obviously you probably know this, but for your listeners, is secure attachment style.

25:04So securely attached kids, they get a lot of approach oriented behaviors. And it sounds like such a small thing, but it goes such a long way because you grew up in an environment where your parents are really attuned to you. And then if they see you being distressed or sad, they notice it and they approach you to try to help you soothe. And what that conditions a child to feel is like, okay, my emotions are worthy of being seen and heard. I am safe to rely on other people. I'm worthy of love, both on my really good days, but also in my hard moments. And so I can trust that people will be there for me.

25:35And so a child grows up in that kind of environment, then they see healthy communication. They internalize all of this conditioning and they bring that into their relationships. Research says that it is about 50 % of the population is securely attached. Interesting. Do you think that? No. I'm like, what? I can never wrap my head around it. I'll be really honest. Sometimes studies, like there was like someone that said a study there, they're like 7 % of this. I was like, I asked one question and they're like, yeah, that's a great point. I'm like, there's like like 50 of america's like that's me to be perfect and all of them are addicts and like what like or like the only thing so i actually spent a lot of time wondering about this it doesn't make sense to me it's the most like cutting-edge research in-depth research that there's supposedly they're like actually on rats that's so funny they're like 50 of the rats in our study you're secure you're like okay that's so funny i'm gonna tell everybody so there's rat studies that say the way that i rationalize my head has always been like well maybe the sample size of people i work with are like all insecure they touch people so maybe it's the wrong thing but every time i like say it out loud like it's just so crazy to me but it doesn't move and locks up with a divorce rate which is interesting so you actually see as the secure attachment rate goes up or down, the divorce rate moves in inverse.

26:59So like the more people are secure, the lower the divorce rate, the more the secure attachment goes down, the higher the divorce rate. And you're sort of seeing that over generations. So it is interesting. But yeah, that's on my sample size of people that I see or talk to or work with. And so it's very interesting. So that's secure. That's secure. Then you have three insecure attachment styles. So at one end of the continuum is the anxious attachment style. Anxious attachment styles, they grow up with either real or perceived abandonment. Real is a very obvious. Real is like somebody loses a parent at a young age.

27:30Somebody has a household where they don't have a father or their mother's not around. And those types of things often cause, you know, these huge abandonment wounds. But what's really interesting about like from a neuroscience perspective is small T trauma consistently over time has a very similar impact on the brain as big T trauma as a singular or just a couple of times that we get imprinted with it. So you can have perceived abandonment where parents are very loving, but let's say it's something like they work all the time. Then a child grows up in an environment where like love is there, love is taken away.

28:00Love is there, love is taken away. And so anxious kids in this kind of environment, they adapt by being like, okay, how do I not get love taken away? And so they constantly fear it being gone. And so they have their big core wounds or triggers that we put in here for integrated attachment theory is the fear of abandonment, the fear of being alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, unloved not good enough those are like their biggest triggers and they obviously feel really unsafe when love feels pulled away so those are the things they have to rewire to become secure it's a big part of the healing process but that's what you'll see with anxious attachment cells and they adapt to these fears by being like oh let me people please you more let me win you over let me try to get really close to you as much as i can and i'll just forego my boundaries to please you and they self-silence and they self-abandon as a means of trying to just maintain proximity to people.

28:49So they're usually very charming and lovely and charismatic, but they're kind of suffering in silence because they're never actually taking up space. So that's your anxious attachment cell. And like, obviously we talk about this in the context of this can happen in childhood. You get, you develop your attachment cell in early childhood, but conditioning is always happening. So somebody could be securely attached and then go through a really painful loss of a parent as a teenager and then still become anxious after that. Or somebody could be secure going into a relationship. Then that person, God forbid, passes away and they could leave that relationship being anxiously attached.

29:19So things can change. It's not just childhood. The other end of the continuum is the dismissive avoidance. So this is what my husband was when we met. He had done some work already, so he wasn't like a really strong dismissive avoidance, but dismissive avoidance grew up with more childhood emotional neglect. So this can be like very overt neglect, like, oh my gosh, parents are never home. Like the children are alone at night by themselves till really late, but that's not usually what it is. A lot of times it's more covert neglect. So it's usually things like structure, stability, order, but, you know, parents are not attuned and they usually didn't have that attunement themselves.

29:56So what ends up taking place a lot of the time is that a child might cry or be sad or express emotions and the parents just are not there to be like, oh, are you okay? Or are you good? They might say like, hey, don't be a cry baby, figure it out, you know, go get stuff sorted and, or come back when you're okay. And there just isn't this emotional attunement. So a child in that environment gets conditioned to go, okay, well, this part of me that's emotional, it's flawed. This part of me is inherently wrong. It doesn't get my needs met. It doesn't get me close to people. So a child learns to suppress this part of themselves deeply and they end up becoming very afraid of expressing themselves that way as an adult.

30:34And so as adults, their big core wounds or triggers are like the fear of being seen as defective if they're too vulnerable or too open, the fear of being seen as weak, the fear of relying on people and then feeling helpless or powerless, the big fear of being trapped or engulfed in the wrong relationship. And they usually feel very unsafe in a conflict, like emotionally unsafe because they haven't had modeling for like, here's what we do. Here's how we hash it out. Here's what we talk through things. So as adults, they're usually slower to move into commitment. They're very guarded. They keep their walls up.

31:04They're not very great at being vulnerable. It doesn't come naturally to them because they see it as a kind of shameful thing. And so they end up being people who a lot of times, this isn't all avoidance, but a lot of times if somebody's a true avoidant and they've never done any work, they kind of like show up okay at the beginning. But then when things get real and they actually attach, they get afraid and they start pushing away and shutting down. So that's the dismissive avoidant. And then the last one is the fearful avoidant, also known as the disorganized attachment style and disorganized individuals grew up in with the overarching theme being chaos.

31:35So a lot of times it's things like, you know, these kind of more extreme things, more traditionally, things like a parent's an alcoholic or a parent's an active addiction or a parent has narcissistic personality disorder. And basically the overarching theme, and we can have this in more extremes, but we can have this in slower, like smaller doses in ways too. The overarching theme is like the child doesn't know what they're going to get. So even if you had parents who had a tumultuous relationship and kids are put in the middle of that divorce, that could be another thing that would create something like this.

32:04But basically if you just use the analogy, a more extreme analogy, let's say mom's an alcoholic. It's like, hey, mom comes home one day and she's drinking and she's very loving. She said, if you drink, she's in a good mood, she's loving. And so a child's like, oh, love is good. Love is safe. I can trust love. And then another day, mom's had too many drinks and she's angry and she's cruel. And you're like, wait, love is terrifying and will really hurt me. And so then you end up getting wired or conditioned to think that love is these two things. It's both really good and really bad. And so children who are fearful avoidance usually become extremely hypervigilant.

32:39They are really good at attuning to people. Like they read micro expressions and body language and tone of voice so well, because that's how they learn to attach. That's how they learn to cope. And I remember working with a client once and she said, yeah, I could tell by the way that my mom shut the door when she got home, if I should like close the door to my room or not. And it's like, you learn to read between the lines all the time and be really hypervigilant as your attachment strategy to just learn to navigate a really confusing or really difficult environment. And so fearful avoidance have these competing associations.

33:11They have like the fear of abandonment because they have this anxious side to them. And so they have this wound around, oh my gosh, will I be abandoned? But then they have this avoidance side to them. We're like, wait, don't get too close to me. So they fear being trapped or engulfed or helpless if they rely on people. But then they also have this wound of betrayal where they don't really trust people or the environment or the future because they're kind of on high alert. So they have this sort of anxious and avoidant side. They often pinball back and forth. And so those are your four attachments.

33:39Wow. Something that's always come up for me, and it was even coming up for me when you were describing the anxious and then avoidant is it always seems like women are anxious and men are avoidant. And it almost seems like the way that that child was trained with anxious to be people pleasing, to attune, to read energy is celebrated as a woman or as more acceptable as a woman. And then to, you know, suck it up, to not express is more like, okay, as a man, what has been your experience in under, in like looking at different attachment styles and how they relate to gender? Yeah, a hundred percent.

34:20So you nailed it. So generally it's like, I think people, what's so interesting is they think this attachment style is like this fixed thing that you have in childhood, all these things. And it's like, there are so many influences. Your parents are obviously the biggest influence, but our culture, our society, all of these things. I remember for just as an example or an analogy, I had a client once and she was this gymnast and she grew up and she was training all the time and her parents were super secure, super healthy marriage, but she would get up really early, go to the gym with her coach, go to school all day, go from school right to the gym for another three, four hours in the evenings, and then come home and eat dinner and go to bed.

34:56And her coach was very unhealthy. And she developed an anxious attachment style because her coach was very hot and cold and touch and go. And so he was a huge source of her conditioning because conditioning is whatever we're exposed to through repetition and emotion. Say that again? Yeah. Conditioning is whatever we're exposed to through repetition and emotion. Okay. Repetition and emotion. Whatever we're exposed to through repetition and emotion. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So whatever we consistently get exposed to that creates emotional imprints for us or emotional experiences, that's actually how neural pathways in our brain fire in a wire.

35:28And so anything where we keep having this emotional experience, especially the more repeated it is, that's how we really, that's how we're shaped. So when you look at conditioning through that lens, you're like, oh, I understand why attachment cells aren't so fixed is because it's going to be those types of influences. So what's interesting It's like, first of all, because of culture and society, you're going to see exactly to your point, it is more celebrated for women to be more people-pleasing, to try to win over approval. Like, obviously, that's a big part of conditioning in society. And it's much more conditioned into men.

35:57Like, hey, stiff upper lip. Don't be a crybaby. And often you'll see parents treat their children in different ways for that reason, which is going to lead to these different conditioned outputs. But also, we have all these other societal influences at the same time. kids at school, teachers, coaches, all these other people who can play a role in your life that can also influence some of that conditioning over time, which is why you statistically see anxious attachment styles skew more to women and then dismissive avoidance skew more to men.

36:27Okay. I have to tell you guys about Chime. It's literally changing my life and makes me actually enjoy dealing with money. I switched in just a few minutes and it was the easiest move I've ever made. I didn't just switch banks. I upgraded to a smarter fee-free way of managing my money. So let me tell you about it. Chime is built for everyday people, not the 1%, no overdraft fees, no minimum balances, no monthly fees, just banking that actually works for you. With my pay, you get up to$500 of your paycheck early. How amazing. And direct deposit even gets you paid up to two days faster. I love that everyday spending actually works for me now.

37:08So Chime rewards you while helping you build credit history safely with the new Chime card. 1.5 % cash back on eligible purchases and no annual fees, no interest, no strings. Chime is not just smarter banking, it's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions already banking fee-free today. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to Chime.com slash almost 30. That's Chime.com slash almost 30.

37:53Okay, a few years ago, I learned something that changed my entire kitchen, and I need you to know about this if you don't know already. most nonstick cookware still contains forever chemicals like PFAS. So these are the things that will not leave your body, which can leach into your food and your home, even some air fryers and utensils contain them. And once I knew that, I was like, no, we're upgrading. That's why I switched to Our Place. Their cookware is completely toxin-free, no PFAS, no Teflon, but the performance is unreal. The nonstick is so good. Eggs just glide out and it's ridiculously easy to clean.

38:27That's one of my non-negotiables when it comes to cookware. I have the four-piece cookware set, two always pans and two perfect pots. It's a great set. This covers almost everything and it replaces a whole stack of like bulky pans I used to have. You can sear, saute, steam, bake, boil, everything. And buying the full set saves you, I think like$150. Plus they all match in those gorgeous colors. You can have these on your stovetop just to display and people will be like, wait what are those those are beautiful i also have the dream cooker which is phenomenal it's a pressure cooker it's a slow cooker you can sear in there it is phenomenal highly recommend i make my famous coconut bone broth rice in there and then i also just got the wonder oven yes this is an air fryer it's an oven you can dehydrate things in there it is an all-in-one and it's non-toxic our place is incredible stop cooking with toxic cook we're going to upgrade to our place today Visit fromourplace.com slash almost 30 and use the code almost 30 for 10 % off site wide with a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping and returns.

39:32You can experience this game-changing cookware with zero risk. Again, that is fromourplace.com slash almost 30. Use code almost 30 for 10 % off site wide.

39:46Yeah, it seems more acceptable. I feel like a lot of the narrative is like women that are anxious trying to get avoidant men to like respond. A lot of it. It's so much like when I was dating, it was like so much of the content was like, get him to respond. Like how did it would be like this strategizing with avoidance. Yeah. Like it was like how to adjust who you are to get an avoidant to respond. And I'm like, whoa, it's like, but if you get them to respond, they're still going to be avoidant. Like, do you think that avoidant needs to know they're avoidant to heal? Okay. So really good question.

40:21First thing, just to touch on this that you said, is that the reason we are attracted to the reason people who are anxious are more attracted to avoidance is because we are most attracted to what's familiar to us. Our subconscious is responsible for 95 plus percent of all of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, our actions. And our subconscious mind wants familiarity because it equates it to safety and thus survival. And so then you have to ask yourself the question, okay, so what's most familiar? It's the way you treat yourself. And so if you are anxiously attached or anxious leaning, then how do you treat yourself?

40:53You put yourself last. You dismiss your own feelings. You avoid your own emotions and your needs. You forego your own boundaries. So what's attractive to you? Somebody who mirrors that back to you. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So, and what's so interesting on the flip side is dismissible women are in this very preoccupied relationship to their own time and space. And they're always worrying about when do I have time to myself and my own space? When can I do my own thing? And so strangely enough, they find anxious people very attractive because it mirrors to them how they treat themselves too. Oh, interesting.

41:21Yeah. So we have this like pattern that's happening. And that's why like, unfortunately, so many people like intellectualized attachment cells are like, this is your attachment cell and this is it. And it's like, no, like there's all this subconscious stuff happening that like, once you understand, you can now work to rewire and change. Right. And that's where then we have secure relationships. So to your point, yes, like so much of it is like, oh, anxious people like trying to change themselves to then get, you know, want to be able to win over the avoidant. And first of all, that never works.

41:49That's never how it will work. Waste of time. Yeah. It's good to understand people so you don't take things as personally. That can be useful. Yeah, it's true. Like, oh, hey, this is about them and this is why they do what they do. Cool. It's not about me. So you're not refeeding these core wounds that you have. but other than that then it's like avoidance actually respond best to to hearing what your needs are and having and you having boundaries and you having a strong sense of self and it's so interesting but i would work with a lot of people in their attachment styles who are anxious or even fearful avoidant and it would be like hey if you want this relationship to work like first of all yes it's very helpful for a dismissive avoidant to know that they're dismissive avoidant a lot of dismissive avoidants end up thinking they're secure because they're not emotional they're like oh i'm the not so true they're like i'm i'm the secure one it's like well if you're emotionally unavailable it's not secure i dated at a smith avoidant he's like i'm just chill dude he's like he's like you're just he's like you're just a bulldog and i'm just chill like okay did you think you were anxious i yeah you really read as like fearful avoided in your past thank you very much sorry i literally was like i'm secure but no in your past I was in my past for sure.

42:57For sure. Feel very disorganized, very, very disorganized. Some mostly I think anxious. And then I think that got like traumaed out of me where I was like so anxious. And then it was like, not okay. Yeah. Where I was like, I can't even be like in my first love, I was so anxious. Oh my gosh, the pain. And then we broke up and it was almost like a part of me came forward. That was like, I can't be that again. So then avoidant came forward. And then I was avoidant in that next relationship with someone that was anxious. And then after that, it was like dating a dismissive avoidant. But yeah, and it's so fascinating because I thought he was a narcissist because it was so self, but it was really just like him wanting his own space, him wanting to do his own thing, him wanting to like be alone.

43:44Like, I don't know. Yeah. Well, so it's really interesting. A lot of fearful avoidants are disorganized. They think that they are anxious when they start, but because you can lean either way and whoever you're with, if you're with something more avoidant, you'll really lean into your anxious side. But then if somebody is really anxious, you'll, they'll polarize you to your avoidant side. And it's very like textbook for a disorganized attachment. That's kind of both sides. And also for them to be very deep, disorganized attachment cells have frigging superpowers. Yeah. Like, like, like, we're amazing.

44:12And once you start healing, like, and obviously like you've done the work. And so once you come on the other side, you keep all of your gifts and your superpowers, but like, it's very, very disorganized to be like when people sit down and to have that beautiful. Yeah. Cause how they attach, right. Is yes. They're like, I need to know everything about you and be able to read you so I can predict you so I can feel safe. Yeah, totally. And so they're always like, I joke that like fearful avoidance or disorganized are like the human lie detectors. Like they notice everything and that's a gift. And then when you heal and you get to kind of keep the beautiful side of that, of the depth and the, the care and the compassion and the empathy and all these things, but then you also learn to self-regulate and self-soothe and you work through your triggers.

44:51And so you, you have, anyways, that was what I read. No, for real. It's so true. I think I just like, yeah. And I think my disorganized, it was almost like being with a dismissive avoidant. I became avoidant myself because I couldn't be anxious anymore. Like it was too exhausting to be anxious all the time. So I became like avoidant in it too. Well, actually maybe I was, but I always have turn it on me. Yeah. The way that you'll know really is that when you're hurt, like your anxious side is so loud when you're disorganized. So you feel really anxious, but you'll see bouts in your relationship history where you really did try to push people away where like you felt like, oh, they could really hurt me.

45:30So you threatened to break up or you push away or you test a lot or you're kind of - Oh yeah, that was my whole bag. Yeah. Yeah. Always, always breaking up. Like I actually feel so bad about that. Me too. I did that too. I've called so many exes when I started doing this work. I'm so sorry. You were like doing the steps. I really, truly. Like making amends. Making amends 100%. Oh my God. I actually like have thought about that. And they'd be like, please leave, lose my fucking number. I'm sure. I'm sure. People in relationships felt that. They were all so kind about it and so nice. And it was actually very well received.

46:04But like that was, I was like, hey, making amends. I believe in that. and I left all of those conversations knowing I was doing it for myself and left those conversations feeling like a that went way better than I thought I probably thought it was like maybe that was weird for them I don't know but b um I felt relief I was like oh I felt like a purge to be able to be because I did the same thing like that was very me at the time would be like oh like push away threaten to leave relationships one person poor person I was with for like four four and a half years I swear I would threaten to break up like every two weeks like I'd be like yeah I know yeah I hate that.

46:36I feel so bad about that. But that's okay. But that's like, so that's very, so that's not an anxious. Oh, I was anxious. That was like my power move. Yeah. Do you know what my, but that's like you're disorganized all day. Anxious attachment cells don't do that because they always want proximity. So they won't get to that point. They might say little things like, do you even care about me? Or they might be like kind of critical, but like, they will not be like, let's break. Like that's, that's, that was like my thing. And then they'd be like, no, I want to stay. And I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because you wanted that.

47:02You were doing it to see if they would stay. Yeah. But you're willing to push somebody away because you're so hurt. And that's the thing about fearful avoidance, aka disorganized, is that you love love and you want love, but you've been conditioned to believe that it will really hurt you. So the more you love, the more scary it is. And you have this strange relationship between loving and needing connection and feeling threatened by it at the same time. And maybe you had experiences where you felt like, oh, love was almost bittersweet. You love, but then the more you love, the more pain was there and associated with it.

47:33And that's, again, that's like not a dismissive avoidant or an anxious thing too much. In their own ways, there's flavors of that, but not in that form. So in my dismissive avoidant brain, how would I even say, because even you're like, you realize that love is more pain. How is that not true? Okay. So, so. Because isn't like literally. Okay. So here's the work. So this is like, this is why I like, this is like that question is why I ended up doing the work I do for a living. It's because I wondered the same thing. I'm like, but love is so freaking hard and so scary. And like, why? And I felt like, okay, there has to be a different way.

48:08And so I always use the analogy of like a bear in the woods. Like if you imagine that tomorrow you walk into the woods and you see a bear and the bear chases you and thank goodness you run away and you're safe, but you have to go into the woods the next day. Well, what does your mind do? Your brain is like the bear, like you're bracing for the bear. The trees move in the wind and you're like, the bear is going to chase me. So our mind is wired to hang on to negative things more than positive. of when the bear is chasing you, you're not like, oh, look at how beautiful the flowers are. Like you're remembering, you're thinking of the bear and its teeth.

48:35Like that's what you're remembering from the memory. And then we reproject it back out onto our environment as a way to protect ourselves, right? That's why the next day you go into the woods and you're like, oh my God, the bear, the bear, even if there's no bear. So that's great if we're being chased by a bear, that protects us, but like, that's not the world we live in. And so what happens is when we go through things as a kid, if you felt abandoned, if you felt betrayed, if you felt like you couldn't really trust your environment growing up, which is like the biggest core wound of fearful avoidant or disorganized attachment style, which is, this is like the big body of work that we published like almost a decade ago.

49:09And it's like, hey, these are the big wounds. And then also this fear of being trapped in the wrong relationship or with the wrong person. Fearful wounds usually want commitment until it's really there and it's really big. And then they kind of panic a little bit too. But essentially you'll have this part of you that's like, you have all of these wounds. So now your brain is going to, as you start to fall in love and really attach, now your brain is going to naturally project those likelihoods back out onto the relationship in the present and the future. And so the first really big pillar of healing is to rewire those wounds.

49:38You're not born with them. They got conditioned into you because of how you interpreted and stored painful past experiences and they're solvable problems. And they're like really solvable problems. Like as somebody who has spent a lot of time doing this work, those are not even things that come up for years for me. Like that's not even a part of the reality. So I'm happy to get into like, if you want to talk about tools and stuff, I can go into a tool. Okay. So this is one of the first tools of rewiring. Okay. So first thing is to identify those wounds. So probably like if, if, so, you know, if you're thinking fearful avoidant, there's probably fears of being abandoned is a big one.

50:14Fears of being rejected is probably a pretty sensitive one. Betrayed. Betrayed is like the big one, big one. My little girl's like, I want you to know about betrayed. Yeah. she's here she's listening she's like make sure you tell her about betrayal that's the biggest one and that's like the true fearful avoidable one that we publish because anxious is like you have that anxious side so you have like the abandoned there's usually this deep sense too of like alone not in the fear of being alone because you like to be by yourself but in the sense that like when things get hard it's always on me i'm always alone to deal with it and this sort of like inherent loneliness and when things get hard i'd fix it for everybody and nobody's here for me in that same way.

50:51So that's a big one. And then usually there's a fear of being helpless if you rely too much on other people. It's like if I had to exclusively rely on people and like they had to take care of me, like I don't know if I can really feel safe in that. So there's that sense. And then a fear of being trapped around like a big, big commitment. So those are like the overarching really big ones. And there's usually a little bit of one, actually a decent size one of unworthiness, always having to earn your worth, overcompensate, prove your worth. So those are like the big wounds. Those are like the fearful avoidant wounds.

51:22You're not born with them. They get conditioned into you through repetition and emotion that fires and wires neural pathways in our brain. So we have to rewire them. So first step is to find the wound that you're working on and it's opposite. I usually recommend work on one or two at a time. So let's say, for example, just to keep the example simple, it's like, okay, I'm going to be abandoned. Okay, I'm worthy of connection. Okay? So that's the opposite. If somebody has a not good enough wound, I'm good enough. Unworthy, I'm worthy. It's just the opposite. it really easy. Step two is I don't believe in affirmations.

51:51So the reason I don't believe in affirmations is because your conscious mind speaks language and your subconscious mind doesn't speak language at all. And your wounds are not conscious. Nobody's waking up being like, today, I'm going to tell myself all day long that I'm not good enough and see how I feel. Nobody's consciously choosing that. So the wound is something subconsciously stored and subconsciously projected, which means you have to speak in the language of your subconscious mind. The language of the subconscious mind is emotions and imagery. Okay? So step one is what's the core wound and it's opposite.

52:24I am going to be abandoned. I'm worthy of connection. If it's I'm going to be betrayed, I'm worthy of loyalty or I can trust. So you're finding the opposite, step one. Step two, we have to speak in emotion and imagery to our subconscious. And you can actually see an example of this if I say like, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant. Like you think of a pink elephant, your subconscious flash is a pink elephant. Your conscious mind understands language, but like your subconscious didn't even register that, right? So what we do here is we're like, how do we get emotions and imagery so that it lands at the subconscious level?

52:56Well, every memory we ever have is just a container for emotions and images. If you think of your favorite childhood memory, and let's pretend you're like playing at the beach or on the playground, you might see like the red bucket when you're building a sandcastle in your mind's eye, when you think of that memory. and you might smile or laugh when you tell that old story. So memory actually is how we speak to our subconscious mind. So now we're like, okay, step one, I'm going to be abandoned. I'm worthy of connection. Step two, we want to come up with 10 memories of how we actually felt worthy of connection.

53:30And you can either pick times where like people really did show up for you in hard moments and actually like get your subconscious to see that and realize like, okay, people really can be there for me. People do care about me. Or you can pick characteristics of who you truly are. Like here's not when I'm people pleasing, when nobody's watching you, like I guarantee, like when nobody's watching, you are a deeply compassionate, empathetic, deep, you know, meaning seeking person. And that's who you are. And those are beautiful qualities. So you would, what you would do is to elicit memory around them is write those qualities out.

54:03And then times that you exemplify those in your memory. So now you're like, okay, we are getting our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind through those 10 memories. And then we record them down, like record yourself saying them out loud. And we want to listen back to them when we are in a suggestible state. So when our brain is producing more alpha brainwaves, that's usually the first hour you wake up, the last hour before you go to sleep, after meditation, breath work, any of that stuff. And so what we do now is it takes two to three minutes a day. The reason we use 10 across 21 days is because neuroscience shows us that that's how long it takes when we you're in a suggestible state to really build new neural pathways.

54:41And by the way, suggestible state means like your subconscious soaks up this information better. Okay. So now you're actually listening back to yourself going through these 10 memories across a 21 day cycle. And we've had 60 ,000 people go through this exercise in our programs and people who are like, I committed every day. I didn't miss a day. I really felt about the memories and visualize the memories when I, did them, took them two to three minutes a day. And people reported a 99.7 % NPS score on healing and moving through those core wounds. So like, if you think of those times, like if you think of those times where you felt betrayed and you threatened to break up, like the reason we do those things is first because of the core wounds, right?

55:21The reason that people cling in relationships when they're anxious is because it's sponsored by the core wound of abandonment. The reason we push people away when we're scared of betrayal is we're protecting ourselves from that wound. Every behavior we have that we don't like is first at a root cause level sponsored by the wound. And the way to heal is to rewire the wounds that are creating those behaviors. And then the whole dynamic shifts and changes. Wow. I remember Jack Kornfield, I think, or Jack Canfield. I think he does the mind movies. Have you heard of those? No, I haven't, but I know who he is.

55:53I had a friend who did like his programs back in the day. Back in the day. Oh gee, I remember at this, I was at this like dinner and there was, I was sitting at this dinner with these, literally these like 10 billionaire women that had done makeup brands and all these things. And they were like mind movies. And mind movies basically is like a movie of images that you basically elicits emotion and you just use the images and the emotion of the thing. Usually there's like a music in the background that helps you bring up the emotion and you just watch it over and over again. And it's like the mind movies.

56:21It's so interesting. You know what? I'm like, I need to think of memories because I'm like, So I have a hard time thinking of my like best memories. I think what has helped me is looking at old photos where I look at photos and I'm like, okay, does this photo bring me back to a time where I can kind of attach it to a memory? That's good. But sometimes it's hard for me to think of memories. Yeah. So what you would do is like if you have a hard time thinking of memories, first you would try to sit with it for a little bit because it's so worth like taking the time to first get them all and list it out.

56:50But you can just think of characteristics about yourself. So if it was like you're working on, I can have loyalty. Okay, well, why am I worthy? Like what characteristics would I think are great in somebody who's worthy and deserving of loyalty or who should be able to trust? Oh, somebody who's also loyal. What's a time that I was loyal? And then you're soliciting memories that way. So if you ever feel stuck on just coming up with memories, that's your kind of work around there. That's a good one. So it's like, so as a fearful avoidant, I'm afraid of betrayal. Yes. So I would think, what is a time where I've been not betrayed, right?

57:22Yeah. Where I've had trust or loyalty. You also want to make sure you speak in the positive framing. Yeah, in the positive. Because otherwise your subconscious just, it doesn't, your subconscious also doesn't hear knots. So it doesn't hear language framed in the negative. Yes or no. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So it's like, this is a time where I've been. I had loyalty or I had loyalty. I could trust. Somebody did something trustworthy. And then I run through like 10 things that like elicit like those positive memories and listens to those. Okay. That's so fascinating. Cause I think with all of the attachments, it sounds like, and I don't know if you feel like this is true.

57:53A lot of people I think are using them these as identifiers for who they are. I mean, I'm sure that's so tough for you. It's like triggers me so much. Like I, as a behavioral scientist will watch like love is blind, love Island. Like it's like my behavioral science degree i turn it on and i'm like guys this is what's going on that's like my guilty pleasure she was like reality television like oh you can study humans even more like the best you can just watch what they do i love it yeah have you seen couples therapy no but i've wanted to i've actually seen clips of it on youtube but yeah it's that's a really really good one i i it's really good one i her therapy she's amazing her therapy style isn't like my therapy style but um it's too like letting them do whatever i like a little bit more like working through it.

58:35Like a little bit more like, she's like, how do you feel about that? Okay. How do you feel about that? And I'm like, you see what's going on, but there's no like solution. Yeah. Like it seems like it's a very long therapeutic process of being longer than like years to have them get to the place. And I'm like, you need to give them something. No, no. I listen, I am the same way I'm laughing. Cause I'm like, okay, I feel like you, I think you're one of the people I've met in my entire life that I'm like, I feel like I've like nothing I've heard about you yet where I'm like, oh, we're, we differ on that.

59:00Like it's just freaking me out. I'm like, okay. kind of weird maybe i'm just so much above your point i'm like mirroring everything to you like i'm hearing that because that's like that's honestly the biggest piece of feedback people tell me like oh i come here and we like do the work we do the work because i'm like give me the structure give me the order give me like the breakthrough each time like we need to actually be able to get to the other side of something and i get a little bit frustrated too when i see stuff like that where i'm like okay but like you're figuring out why but like now what like tell me the resolution.

59:30Tell me the action steps. That's why we like built our schools. Like the whole thing is just like all these exercises for what to do in all the situations. Well, I feel like this is a story I haven't, this whatever, but it's like, I feel like sometimes in this space, people get rewarded for just empathizing with people at the state that they're at and not moving them towards where they should, you know what I mean? It's like validating the experience, which is important, but it's like, what is the actual steps to take them where they need to go? So even on the concept of like doing the work, people talk about doing the work, the subconscious reprogramming tool is such a good one that you just explained.

1:00:00What else do you consider doing the work? Like when someone's like, I want to do the work to heal my attachment, what should I do? Okay. Love it. So we have five major pillars. We kind of have a bonus six, but the five are the big ones. So the first one is rewiring your core wounds. So it's like, we get an actual, a little assessment for people to identify them. We talked about the wounds already. Like most people could hear what those were from the conversation. And then it's to do that exercise first. There's some other exercises to rewire, but that's like a really good starting one for people right now.

1:00:26Otherwise I would go on for like nine hours. So that's the first thing, start rewiring your wounds. It takes, and I like, I literally cannot stress how meaningful it is. I've seen thousands of people go through this, like doing that work will change people's life. And it's also really important that you do things from your own life, your own evidence, because that's what your mind believes. It's your reality. So it's more tangible. We lock in better. So it's really powerful to, to tee that up. And also as somebody who's done the work, the biggest thing that I noticed on the other side, because I had all of the wounds, is that your mind becomes so much more still.

1:00:57Like I used to always be in some kind of drama in my mind of like, I can't trust this person or, oh my gosh, is this person leaving or is this person going to control me? And like to have that gone and to have space to like design my life and learn and create like is so beneficial. So step one, rewire your core wounds. That's your relationship baggage. Your core wounds are just, or they're your core triggers. That's your baggage you bring from the past into the present. And we don't have to. Second thing is we need to learn what our needs are and how to meet them ourselves. So Gabber Mate has a wonderful quote.

1:01:27It's one of my favorite quotes for this. And he says, trauma are the things that happened that shouldn't have happened. So the obvious abuse, that kind of stuff that creates core wounds, but also trauma are the things that didn't happen that should have happened. And so those are your deeply unmet needs from your childhood. And what's really interesting is that when we have deeply unmet needs, it makes us really vulnerable to being with the wrong people because there'll be times that like, let's say somebody felt deeply unseen as a child. You know, one of the biggest traps that people fall into in narcissistic relationships is that if they felt deeply unseen and they're always the ones seeing everybody else, when somebody comes along and makes you feel seen, your brain like lights up like fireworks going off.

1:02:08And that will be different things. You know, sometimes it's in narcissistic relationships, sometimes it's feeling unseen, not protected, not deeply cared for, not supported. And narcissists in the love bombing stage, they're so good at making you feel all those things. So what happens is wherever we have deeply unmet needs, we actually can be a little bit unstable in our lives because we'll kind of dive into things to seek out those needs because we're dying to get them. And a big part of our healing is before we even start to know our needs and go share them with people in our lives and try to resource them, we have to start self-sourcing them.

1:02:39And so what I get people to do is go through what are your deepest unmet needs from childhood. Write out mom, write out dad. What are the things that you always needed that you felt like you couldn't get access to? Sometimes it's safety, support, care. Sometimes it's empathy. Sometimes it's to be seen or heard. Sometimes it's for somebody to just be present with you. Write out those needs and then we actually have to be able to resource them within ourselves. And because of how we build neural networks in the brain, what I get people to do is pick two or three needs and you're going to become a master at meeting yourself every day for 21 days until that feels like it's your new baseline.

1:03:14So if it's like, oh, validation, cool. Journal three of your wins every day. Like just start doing these things on a daily basis where you're starting to give to yourself what you couldn't get. And it does two things. It heals that void within you of trauma because we actually grieve those things that we really needed and we couldn't get access to as a child. And secondly, it's your emotional immunity to ending up in the wrong relationships because we're not going to, I always say to people like, you're going to put up with breadcrumbs when you're starving. So you're going to be like, let me just do anything to get near this person because I don't have access to this need.

1:03:48So, oh my gosh, I'm going to chase after them. I'm going to do all these things that go against my standards or my sense of self or my boundaries because I'm starving. But it's like, no, no, once you learn how to self-source your needs, you stabilize yourself and you end up in much better situations where you can uphold your standards. So that's that second pillar of healing is like audit your needs, start meeting them yourself on a daily basis, Because obviously certain attachment cells tend to have specific needs. Like anxious attachment cells need a lot more validation, reassurance. They want to feel like they're wanted, like they're a priority.

1:04:17They want to feel like they have depth of connection and intimacy, dismissive avoidance. They obviously want their freedom, autonomy, independence. But they also deeply need to feel empathized with, attuned to. They need to feel like these are things they didn't get in their childhood. They need to feel like somebody supports them and actually really cares about them. They need sincere forms of acknowledgement and appreciation. Like each attachment style has different ones, right? So learn your needs, meet them yourself. The other really interesting caveat to that second pillar is also that we don't properly receive from people when we haven't learned to self-source.

1:04:50And you can see this like with anxious attachment styles, for example, that anxious attachment styles, they often end up in situations where, you know, let's say somebody comes and they validate the anxious attachment style. They're like, oh, I give the analogy of like a hole in your bucket. somebody pours into your bucket you're like oh my god it feels so good that somebody's doing this for me they're meeting my need but there's a hole it just like leaks right back out and then you need more and more yeah but you actually can receive properly from people when your subconscious has this as a part of its comfort zone because you've learned to give it to yourself so now your subconscious sees it as familiar and safe and so now you can actually receive wow so that's our second pillar i feel like there's i don't know if you want to jump in and say i'm just fire hosing information.

1:05:33I'm like diagnosing everyone in my head and then myself at the same time. And I was just something that was coming up with the meeting your own needs and sort of the responses. I work with women a lot in metamorphosis on food and their relationship to food in their body. And what I've noticed a lot of times too, it's like how the attachment can kind of attachment styles and the wounding within that can come out within their relationship with food. So like if they're trying to soothe externally, if they're trying to find peace externally, if they're trying to like, you know, numb, if they're trying to find like love, like you can, if you are not having, especially if you have an anxious attachment, those needs met and you don't know how to meet them yourselves, people will go to food as that source.

1:06:17Or even if you're avoidant and you don't want to feel, so you numb. Yes. And it's so interesting how I've seen that over the years, just be like a space in place where a lot of the anxious or a lot of the attachment wounding comes out. Yeah, 100%. And you know what's so interesting is it's because it's one of our earliest programming about food. Well, food is when you're being breastfed. And what's so interesting about breastfeeding is that when a mother's breastfeeding her child, the child's being held. So the child feels comfort. They feel safety. And there's a tremendous amount of oxytocin produced between the parent and child when breastfeeding and oxytocin is a bonding neurochemicals.

1:06:53So a lot of our deepest conditioning about food is food equals the need for emotional connection, safety, and comfort. And so a lot of people, when they're like starving for food, but they're not actually starving, they're like maybe binge eating, they're binge eating because they're starving for comfort and safety and connection. And it's like, we will resource needs exactly to your point, exactly like you said, in these other ways of trying to co-regulate with substances or with food or different things outside of ourselves when we haven't learned to properly regulate within ourselves or through people in a healthy way.

1:07:25And so people end up using, okay, I'm co-regulating with food or I'm co-regulating with substances or whatever it might be because that's our way of trying to resource those needs deep down. And that's why learning to meet your own needs and identify what they are and meet them in healthy ways, that is like so powerful for the healing process. It's huge. Okay. So that was second. What's the third? Third is nervous system regulation. Okay. I actually wanted to ask about the nervous system. It's funny. We were like talking to our audience the other day and they were like nervous system regulation.

1:07:53Like everyone wants to know about it. And I'm like, okay, I don't know. I'm just like, I like, this is what I think. And this is why I have that energy. Let me just back up and say in my truth, I had a situation recently where I regulated my nervous system for the first time in I think three months. And it changed my whole life and my personality when I had my nervous system regulated, I was like, whoa. So I realized the impact of the nervous system. And what I also think is it's like, it requires you to, to pause to, you know, like it requires, I think people want the information of it, but then they're not doing the work of it because it's easy to find information of how to regulate your nervous system.

1:08:28But why is it so still conversation? Okay. So, um, I love this. Like, wow, I'm so excited. Okay. So I've had a lot of people over the years who've come to me who back when I was running my practice, before I was running our online programs, and they would come to me and they'd be like, oh, I've done all the somatic work. I've done, so I did a certification somatic experience, which is a beautiful thing. Nervous system regulation is definitely a pillar of healing, but I would see these people and like, God bless them. I sometimes would see people and they'd come in and they would be like, oh, I got triggered.

1:09:08Okay, I'm going to regulate my nervous system. And then like two days later, the same freaking thing would trigger them and they'd be like, okay, regulate my nervous system. And the problem is that like, if you have that core wound where you think the bear is coming and you can't, and you haven't dealt with that, you can keep being like the bear is coming, regulate my nervous system. The bear is coming. And the bear is coming as the analogy for, I'm going to be trapped. I'm going to be betrayed. I'm going to be abandoned. And you can keep regulating your nervous system, but then you're going to have to go back and do that same thing over and over again.

1:09:36And like, hello, like you got to go deeper into the roots. So that's actually why I put the core wound work first because if people just do nervous system regulation, it's a very good soothing mechanism in the moment. But like on its stand, like as a standalone thing, you're not going to get real results long-term. So it's helpful. It's really important. There's definitely a part of nervous system regulation that is also meeting an unmet need of self-attunement because we get into like, what am I feeling in my body? What's going on here? So there's a lot about nervous system regulation. We kind of have like a high level and there's like sort of stages to it.

1:10:11So high level, you can do meditation every day. Really good for your nervous system. Really good for practicing self-attunement, going inwards, mindfulness exercises, breath work. All of these things very much regulate the nervous system. They're excellent. Something I've learned with wellness is that having little treats you actually enjoy helps you stay consistent long-term. And if I'm craving something cozy or a little indulgent, I try to find options that still support my body, that are still healthy. And that's why I've been loving cachava's new coffee flavor. You guys, it is phenomenal. I love coffee.

1:10:47I have one cup a day. I don't give it up. It's something that I love. This tastes like a smooth coffee treat, and it's made with premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans. So I can have this middle of the afternoon, give me what I need nourishment wise. Don't have to worry about the caffeine crash. It really gives it this authentic flavor. it's very, very good, but it's also doing a lot more behind the scenes. So cachava is an all-in-one nutrition shake made with high quality ingredients. There's 25 grams of plant-based protein, six grams of fiber, greens, adaptogens, and nutrients that support energy, digestion, and metabolism.

1:11:21It's clean nutrition with no artificial flavors, colors, or sweeteners, and it comes in seven delicious flavors, including the new coffee. I also love their strawberry flavor and their mint chocolate, just in case coffee's not your thing. So treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to cachava.com and use code almost 30 for 15 % off your first order. It is delicious. Trust me, I've given this to many people and they're like, wait, how did I live without this? That's cachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A.com, code almost 30. BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I think one thing we don't talk about enough is how financial stress can affect our mental health.

1:12:03It's really easy to feel like you're the only one struggling. I've been there, but the reality is that most people experience some level of money stress at different points in their lives. Sometimes that stress shows up as anxiety, losing sleep, or tension in relationships, and it doesn't mean you've failed. Sometimes it just means you need the right kind of support. Therapy has been so helpful for me with this, and you can explore your relationship with money. You can explore the beliefs you've developed around it and ways to manage the stress that comes with it. It's not about financial advice.

1:12:36It's about giving yourself space to process and build healthier coping strategies. BetterHelp has over 30 ,000 licensed therapists and has helped more than 6 million people globally. After filling out a short questionnaire, it's so easy. They match you with a therapist based on your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch at any time. It's really no big deal. They make it super easy. So when life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash almost 30. That's betterhelp.com slash almost 30. At a deeper level, just really fast, I want to say about self-attunement.

1:13:18That is something I've heard of, but it's hitting me differently, especially for a lot of the women of our audience and including my previous self, myself, sometimes now as someone that's deeply sensitive, can read people, all of that, like I'm a master at attuning, but it is like, I'm just kind of clocking that more deeply that for people that want to be in their power and in their purpose and in their own experience and in their body and in their voice and all the things that people want, it requires you experiencing acts of self-attunement. And so meditation is a good one to do that. And just like being in the experience of like just attuning to how you're feeling and what you sort of need.

1:13:55Yes. I love that. And I love that you said that. And you know, I feel like I know so much about you because you told me, I talked to you at the beginning and I was like, wow, you're so similar to me. So now I'm just projecting.

1:14:10I'm like, okay. So, so if you're what I imagine, cause this is what I went through and I feel like we have a lot in common is um when you're so good at self-attuning you're also kind of like mildly dissociated because you're floating outside of yourself all the time legs like someone would be like I like your outfit and I'd be like what I would look down and be like I have a body like I no joke would be like what are they talking about like if that's sometimes you'd be like oh my god you look beautiful I'm like I don't even know what they were talking about I'm like who I hear you and like it's one of those things where you're so when you have to when you're forced to be so good at like attuning to people to survive and to navigate, you kind of get into a space where you're like, what is happening inside of me?

1:14:52Like, I don't even know. And, and so to your point that that's very common for people who are even anxious can be a little bit like that. Fearful wins are the most like that as a general rule. Dismissable wins really struggle to self-attune too though, but they're, they don't attune to people as much. They attune to like things in their environment, like facts and learning. They're very dissociated through trying to soothe and regulate through like their hobbies or because they didn't have anybody to help them co-regulate as a kid. Yeah. So you'll see these different themes, but part of healing is like learning to actually come back to yourself.

1:15:22And we'll get into it in the boundaries piece in a little bit, but like you can't be good at setting boundaries if you don't even know what you feel in your body in real time because you don't even know what a boundary is violated. And so - So true. Yeah. So coming back to you and being like, what am I feeling? What am I needing? All these things and practicing getting into your body and noticing what's happening is so huge for that reason. So that's very good for regulating the nervous system, meditation, breath work, all that stuff. It's like a daily habit. So we're wiring in our capacity through repetition over time to like be attuned to ourselves and to get there.

1:15:50There's other things that like we could go way down a rabbit hole, but completion cycles, learning to discharge emotional energy when you're stressed, things like that that can help. It's just like yelling, sighing. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I have not – I was like, what's going on? so so there's a lot of research that goes into like animals when they go through um something stressful and you see like an animal zebra yeah like exactly okay i forget the name of the one so what you'll see is like a lot of animals after that even if you think of like a my cat anytime i hold her she jumps off me and she's like literally yeah or like that would happen with my dog like Like when he would go through something, he would, like he was like stressed or got scared by like a loud noise, he'd shake after, right?

1:16:38And so we, and what is actually happening is they're shaking off excess cortisol. Oh, interesting. And the more cortisol, the more we're actually moving that energy through our body, but it's actually helping us regulate cortisol in the process. So there's important parts of like, hey, that's sort of natural. But then what happened for human beings is because we have a really developed prefrontal cortex that allowed us to be like, oh, no, no, no. Like that's shameful. That's embarrassing. And so we learned to repress some of those natural things our body would do physiologically to release that stored distress.

1:17:06So there is something powerful to, like, I'll tell you when I've seen, again, kind of similar thing where I've seen people come in and be like, yeah, I've been doing the work for years. Like when I get angry, I punch a pillow over and over. Like, I'm like, that's silly. Like, I, like, that's the. Okay, don't. Okay, but like. You're embarrassing yourself. but I'm like the poor person that they think they're gonna like not me doing that today no joke this morning I like rolled over and was yelling in the pillow I'm like I'm sorry

1:17:41I was like cussing into a pillow

1:17:46I'm so sorry hey man I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do and you're gonna do what you're gonna do so like listen if people want to do it as a one-off but it's not going to heal your whole world you know like that's the thing and like I would see people be like yeah I've been doing doing therapy for years and this is what I do and I'm like but you're not going to like get headway like you're not going to totally so like there's there is an important part of it where it's like the cortisol piece discharge your emotional energy like shake things off like and there's some sometimes benefits and actually like when you feel something stressed or stressful you come back into your body, you notice what you're feeling and you do something to discharge the emotional injury.

1:18:22If you anger, you can feel like you're pressing on something. You can shake, you can rub your arms. Like there's things you can do to like mimic that natural process that your body needs to complete. And there's actual like steps you can go through really specifically, all that kind of stuff. But what I've found to be much more useful in the nervous system somatic space is something called somatic processing. So I saw your microaggression. okay sorry so you're good so so there's this part where um and you'll probably understand this deeply i'm sure your audience will understand this but i remember reading this study and it was at the same time that i was reading um years ago um eckhart tolle and his um a new earth yeah a new earth and such a good like good it's like everyone's opening yeah yeah exactly and so there's a study and i was like i've always loved like the spirituality with the neuroscience part where do they like intersect.

1:19:16And I remember reading these studies and then like reading this book and be like, wow, they're the same thing. And he talks about the pain body and he talks about how like get into your witnessing consciousness, like make sure you witness emotions when they come up rather than just identify with them. And interestingly, there was this fMRI study done where they took participants and they put them in these fMRI scanners and they had them recall really triggering events. And what they found is people would have all this brain activity drain out of their prefrontal cortex and into their reptilian brain when they were triggered.

1:19:46And we've all seen and felt this. When you're triggered, you like act like the animalistic version of yourself. And then later you kind of sober out of it and you're like, wait, why did I say that thing? Why did I send that email? Whatever it might be. So then they had the participants, rather than keep going on and on with the story, they had them practice just a somatic practice of witnessing their emotions and labeling, hey, I feel anger and anger feels like heat in my chest and my arms, or I feel sadness and that feels like a ball in my throat and heaviness in my torso and hollowness. And they had them just go into labeling their sensations.

1:20:17And what they found were two things. Participants, after they stayed focused on the sensations, which is a form of somatic practice, which in turn regulates the nervous system, they got out of the story of their mind, which is of course rehashing the difficult event, which is causing you to feel more triggered. They actually found brain activity come out of the reptilian brain and back up to the neocortex regions and prefrontal cortex. So where people were, they're more like logical, higher version of themselves. And they found that people reported having done that work, feeling much more regulated.

1:20:47So what I love is like a very simple somatic process to start is to practice that, is to practice like getting people in a position where they're like, okay, when I feel triggered, I'm going to practice like witnessing my emotion, staying really solid and not getting into the story in my mind, but instead getting into what I'm feeling in my body, noticing the sensations and sitting with it until it passes through. And then if we want to do something to bring it to a cycle of completion after, like if you feel anger, yeah, like push down on something. Or if you feel stressed, like shake it out, like all these things, then that can help us come full circle.

1:21:16And those things do regulate the nervous system. But I really like the somatic piece first because we're also fully present with ourselves in that moment. And it also meets the need for self-attunement. Interesting. I like too how it, I'll do that sometimes with clients and I didn't really even think about that was what we were doing. I just, it feels intuitively like sometimes people's trauma lives at places in the body, like in their stomach or in their throat or on their heart and stuff like that. So it's like bringing them to that sensation of, and then almost like you can feel like a releasing of the energy or moving of the energy.

1:21:49You can feel how deep it is. They'll be like, it's colored, which is so interesting. So I, my work is in IFS. So I love IFS. Like that's what I teach. That's what I like really work with. So a lot of times when I hear things, I think of like parts and And especially with attachment theory, I've always thought about like parts. Because it's like the part of you that was trained to be anxious or trained to be avoided or all of those things is oftentimes what I think needs healing and needs attunement and needs like love and nurturance. How do you think about parts? Like is parts something that you do?

1:22:18Yeah, I love this question. This is so interesting. Okay, so I've actually done an IFS certification. And what I found is that every part has a core wound and a need. And so what I found is you can go to the parts. I kind of, I did that for a little bit and then I felt like it was more efficient in the way I process information because that was the work I did first to be like each part is a core wound. If you help the part overcome and rewire that core wound and then in that moment you're able to access, okay, this is the need because the part is doing something as a function of meeting the need.

1:22:45And so they kind of go hand in hand in that way, but that's sort of the angle that I take for it. But yeah, I love that work as well. And I'm a big believer in it. Because it's so good. I think what's good about parts work, especially in for me in attachment healing is that personifying it can help the brain process. Because if you think of a little girl in you that's looking for attachment or looking for, um, to be soothed because she's anxious, it's so much easier to work with that little girl than it is to think about yourself as the thing or think about you as like in full, like having this issue.

1:23:14And so it's really been like such a beautiful practice, even for me, I guess in my disorganized, as I've been working with it more thinking about the different, it's interesting. I've worked with my anxious part. I haven't worked with my avoidant part much, but I was trying to work with her recently through healing my betrayal wound. I was really working on my betrayal wound, but I was attaching my betrayal wound to like being cheated on and things like that. And so that was like where I was feeling betrayal. But, um, so maybe I was like doing my own or like work with that. Um, what do you think is one thing or two things that people get wrong about attachment styles or you think like you really want to clear up about the narrative.

1:23:54Yeah. So I would say the first part. So, so, um, the other thing I want to just mention really briefly is that there's two other parts there, but the other parts are you're doing them in relationship with other people, which is you're healing your attachment cell, those first fear with self. The others are learning to have healthy boundaries with people and how to wire that in and how to communicate more effectively. So I wait, let's talk about those because that's, this is my whole journey. This is my, this is my testimony. Bring my mic closer. the communication piece is everything yeah like you being able to communicate in hard times you being able to express your needs you being able to understand yourself you being able to like and it's not just saying my mom betrayed me so i have betrayal wounds that's not like it's a form of communication but it's like in this moment i feel hot in this moment i feel the need to pull away in this moment i'm feeling it's like naming the thing while still being in relationship to it but still being in relationship to the other person is like the real deep work of deep relationship.

1:24:55And I think what I've really been working on really deeply the past year, which has been really, really beautiful, but definitely is like a different total experience than I've ever had before where I was just kind of blended the whole time and was like speaking from parts. Yeah. And so I love that. And what I find is like a lot of people, and it's interesting because that's probably the part of the avoidance side. It's like, oh, I didn't communicate in the past. Like when we're not communicating, when we're icing out or stonewalling or pushing people or shutting down, like all of that is a part of our avoidance in those types of situations.

1:25:26And we do that because we're projecting the core wound subconsciously. We believe this thing is going to happen. And sometimes it's even like, if you didn't have your needs met enough growing up, then you end up in a situation where you're like, you're just assuming that your needs won't be met anyways. You don't even, it's almost like an unknown unknown. You don't even know that you could communicate in that moment. You're just so in that subconscious space of like shutting down, pulling away, self-protecting. So doing, I actually frame the work in that order for that reason, because as we start moving through core wounds and then we know our needs, now we actually know what to communicate.

1:25:55And as we regulate our nervous system and do somatic processing, we're now less so intensely triggered in real time because we can witness our emotions. We can be with ourselves and now we can actually communicate from that space. So I love that you said that. So when it comes to communication, I give people a framework. So I always say to people, hey, um we want to and this is where I see communication go wrong for a lot of people is first of all we have to be willing to be vulnerable it's never going to feel comfortable to communicate if you have years of not communicating it's going to feel terrifying I still remember to this day the first time I communicated when I felt really vulnerable and I remember like what I was wearing like and I never think about stuff like that like you're like I like you and you're like but I remember saying like it was actually with my husband and I had I've done all of this work on other stuff.

1:26:41And I had never done like this relational work to speak to people. And it was like, we've been dating for like six months and he was late. I was supposed to pick him up. His car was being taken in. He was running late. He was getting his hair cut. And I was supposed to drop him at work and then go to my work. And it was this whole thing. And he was running late and I was waiting. And I was like, pissed. Like, hey, I'm going out of my way. And like, now you're going to make me late because you're late. And I called him and he didn't answer. And back then, I still had this like very avoidant side where I was like, I'm only calling once.

1:27:13I will not like do more. I called and I was like sitting there watching the clock and I was not going to call again. I was like, if he doesn't come in one minute, I'm leaving. And like, that's too bad. And that was that part of me that was like stubborn and wouldn't speak and wouldn't share. And so I, um, he called me like at the minute and I remember being like almost like more mad because I couldn't resolve it. And so he got in the car and he was like, Hey, sorry, all the hairdresser was talking and talking. And I remember feeling in that moment, like, oh, he's like so preoccupied with the hairdresser that da da da.

1:27:46And I remember feeling like this fierce, like frustration, disrespected. And it was a core wound I hadn't worked on yet. And that's exactly what the wound was for me. And it was not like a typical huge, but that's actually comes up in our core wound. Yeah. I'm disrespected. Over the years, like I'm good now with employees, like they do like something. I'm like disrespectful. Lindsay would be like, what is wrong with you? so literally like that was exactly the the wound and I was and I was like all I wanted to do was just be like cold like just like cold drop them off whatever and and I remember being like oh I like haven't known how to communicate and I was already working with people with client like for a living and I was like okay I gotta like hold myself to a bit of a standard here and I remember knowing I had two options and one was going to be I was going to be soft and say how I felt and it felt so terrifying.

1:28:35And the other was like, I knew I wasn't going to go anywhere. And it was like that feeling. So I was just going to shut down and ice out. And that was, and I was like, I am not going to go back to doing that. Like I've done a lot of work. Like I can't go back through that pattern. And so I remember saying, and I remember I had this red shirt on and I remember like, I was almost having this like out of body experience when I was speaking. And I remember being like, I am feeling like a little bit frustrated right now because I'm going on my way and I'm now going to be late to work. And like, I'm doing a favor.

1:29:04And like the fact that you were caught talking to some woman, like that makes me feel really, and I think I said the words, like I feel disrespected. And he's like, okay. And he responded so nice. And he's like, first of all, the hairdresser was a man. And second, you're like, I know she was a hot woman. Yeah, exactly. And then he was like, and thank you like for telling me that. And he just responded so nicely because I was vulnerable and because I like said, and I was like, and he's like, yeah, like I get that. I'm really sorry. Like, let's get going. Like, I don't want you to keep you late.

1:29:39I can always jump in like an Uber or something if we need to. I think it was like taxis back then so long ago. And he was like, but he like was so supportive. And I remember thinking like, oh my God, this is what secure people do in relationships. Like this is how people interact. And so I learned over the years that like a really easy way of just approaching things is when you feel upset, converting your feeling into like actual words, hey, this is what came up for me in this situation. And here's what I need to feel better. Because so often with couples, what I would see is people would say, I feel betrayed or I feel hurt or I feel upset.

1:30:14And then the person like wants to fix it, but they don't know what their partner needs. So then they just end up being like, I'm really sorry. And then it doesn't feel fully resolved. so to be able to know your needs which is part of why the needs pillar comes earlier is when you start building needs literacy with yourself it's much easier to be like hey this is what I need in the future and then we can actually get to resolution better so whenever there's a conflict both people have to say hey this is what came up for me in terms of my feelings and here's what I need that would make me feel better and then you work to brainstorm and find that kind of middle ground wow it's so funny I'm so grateful for the work that I do and I'm sure you are too because it does hold you to a standard.

1:30:48A hundred percent. Where you're like, oh, I, I, I, yeah, like you could not, not be in the work and not be in like the part of it. But like, yeah, it's, it's so funny because that for me, I think relational work is the deepest work. I think it's the most scary work, the most vulnerable work. Like I've done a lot of inner work, but like I've found relational work to be the most transformative and the most powerful. And like, I think it's interesting. I I have one of my dear friends. She's like one of my most processed, powerful friends. And she's done so much work, but she's now actually, this sounds so weird, just starting to do relational work with like her friends and like being honest and having needs and having boundaries and expressing vulnerabilities and like all that kind of stuff, which can be really, really challenging.

1:31:33And on that point of friends, I've actually noticed in my life I had, I have some attachment things with friends where I will like my actually, my romantic stuff is what it is. But I think I've noticed that with some women, I feel myself being anxious and I feel myself and not as much anymore. There's actually maybe like very few relationships in my, it used to be way more, but there's very, very few relationships in my life where I feel that, but I still feel that. Is that possible for you to have that with friends? A hundred percent. And you'll actually have, because of conditioning, this is another thing where people are like, but your attachment cell should always be the exact same in all areas.

1:32:10Well, not, not actually not at all. You're going to have little variations. You're very unlikely to see, for example, somebody who's like dismissive avoidant as a partner, be like really anxious in friendships. You can see that from time to time, but, but it's also like conditioning is not like so cut and dry. It's in the relationships we've learned how to relate the repetition and emotion of our stored experiences there across time. So what you'll see is usually where you're most likely to see it is that somebody who's one attachment style will lean the other way in that situation. So for example, if you kind of imagine it along a continuum, fearful avoidance are sort of in the middle in a sense because they have an anxious and avoidance side.

1:32:43So fearful avoidance generally will lean anxious in friendships or avoidant in friendships. I grew up, for example, being an only child. Here's the first thing about us. It's different. Oh, no, wait. It's like, wait, just kidding. I actually, whatever you say. When I was an only child till I was seven. Oh my God. Only childs are like always with me. I attract only children. And my sister, she's like seven and a bit years younger than me. And, and so, and my parents were very protective when I was a kid. So I like didn't have playdates with kids, all this kind of stuff. So I always noticed in friendships that I would lean a little more avoidant because, so I was like an FA leaning DA in friendships and I would kind of like be more independent, didn't feel like I got as many needs met through friendships.

1:33:22And as I started to heal, I realized that that like came back online. But you'll actually more frequently see people who are fearful avoidant who lean more anxious in friendships, if anything. And so it's because you have those wounds. But what's really interesting is that you will see your biggest part of your attachment style show up in romantic relationships because it's where we're the most vulnerable. And what's most vulnerable relates back to your childhood when you were a vulnerable kid, right? So that's where those associations get triggered. But you'll absolutely see your attachment style play out in friendships.

1:33:49You'll have those wounds play out. If you lean more anxious, for example, in friendships, you may feel like, oh, an exclusion wound is often really big there. Like if you feel left out of something, it kind of stings a little bit, then you can still have a little bit of like the abandonment wounds come up or the fear of being alone or not having people around. Like all those things can definitely fire off there, but it's the same process of healing. It's like work through your core wounds, learn your needs, start communicating your needs, regulate your nervous system, and then learn to have healthy boundaries because boundaries are such an important part of that fifth really big pillar of how we actually share our full truth with people.

1:34:22Like I always say to people when people don't have boundaries, what ends up happening is first of all, the world's kind of an unsafe place because people can just do with your time and your energy, whatever they want. And second of all, like we're not in authentic relationship with somebody if we're only sharing our yeses. Like if we're only saying yes to things, part of your truth is also your no's and letting people know that that's your authenticity, letting people know, and I actually don't want to do that. Or no, I don't really like that restaurant or no, I'd rather not commit to those plans.

1:34:49Like being able to really say those things is you honoring your totality in connection with somebody else. And I'm curious if this happened to you, but I noticed in my own work that boundaries was the last thing for me to really get. And the reason for me was that deep down, so I read all these books about boundaries. I intellectually understood boundaries like nobody's business. I would know in real time. You're like, hey, I can't help. Exactly. And I knew when it was time to set a boundary. I knew I could notice in real time because I'd worked on attuning to myself when a boundary was being violated.

1:35:22I understood boundaries so well intellectually, but I couldn't bring myself in real time for like a year and a half of doing the work on all these other things. But like boundaries was one of them. I couldn't bring myself to like in real time, say a boundary. And I was like, what the heck is happening? Like, why can't this just like click into place? So it's my set point because a lot of other things had clicked into place and this one wasn't coming. And what I realized it's because I had believed that boundaries were going to make me unsafe because I got heavier handed punishments as a child if I set a boundary.

1:35:49And for some people it's boundaries will make you abandoned. Boundaries will make you excluded or disliked or rejected or whatever it might be. And so then your conscious mind to set a boundary. Your conscious mind understands when it's time to set a boundary. You're even attuned to yourself. You know what the boundary is. But then if you have this wound that's like protecting you or stopping you from setting the boundary because you believe subconsciously it leads to bad outcomes, then in real time you won't do it. And so it's such an important thing in friendships, but in all relationships. And part of it is like, what are you afraid will happen if you do set a boundary?

1:36:18and noticing the answer to that question, then rewiring that wound and then practicing exposure work, like setting boundaries with safe people slowly over time first until you feel more proficient and making it a daily practice until it's like your new normal.

1:36:35Okay. So lately I've been thinking a lot about how I want to support my body in this season of life, in this kind of like preconception mode, conception mode. And it's a season of life that I've been through before. I have one son. I'm just really intentional about what I'm putting in my body and how I am making sure I'm getting the nutrients that I need. So there's so much information out there and it can feel overwhelming trying to make the right choices when it comes to your prenatal. One thing I feel really good about is that in my first pregnancy, I took Ritual's Essential Prenatal. Even if you're just in a phase of preparing your body or being intentional about foundational nutrients, it feels like such a supportive place to start.

1:37:13Their clinically backed essential prenatal includes key nutrients like choline, folate, and omega-3. And I love that the ingredients are traceable and thoughtfully sourced. I and a lot of my friends chose Ritual because I really love and trust the level of research behind it. It's the only leading prenatal backed by its own human clinical trial, and it was clinically shown to deliver key nutrients like folate, biotin, and vitamin D. I also appreciate that it uses methylated folate and a patented capsule designed to dissolve in the small intestines, which I found makes it really gentle and easy to take, especially I remember that first trimester.

1:37:52It was kind of like a hard thing to wrap my head around that I had to take prenatals, but it made it a lot easier. So compared to other supplements I've tried, it's just been a better overall experience for me. So I highly recommend don't settle for less than evidence-based support. Save 25 % on your first month of Ritual at ritual.com slash almost 30. That's ritual.com slash almost 30 for 25 % off your first month.

1:38:20I've had like three clients in the past week where I've been like, we're doing exposure work. Yeah. Like we're like doing like, you're going to say how you feel and this, you know what I mean? It is. And a lot of doing the work is exposure. Yeah. Like it's just like practicing exposure, the fearful parts of you. It's so interesting. What are some examples of when you need boundaries? All the time. So one of the first exercises to get people to do in our programs is I say, like, we're going to do a boundary audit. So we go through the seven areas of life. And like, we go through like career, where are you struggling with boundaries?

1:38:50And a lot of things are very hidden. Like sometimes we're so used to or adapted to things we don't even realize, but it would be like staying late after work every day and never saying no. A lot of times it's things like people taking on their coworkers work and doing it all for them because that person's in distress or in need, but then like getting behind on their own stuff. Sometimes it's like over delivering on everything and not making room for your own self or not actually taking time to like pause throughout the day or say no to projects that are not comfortable for you or that you don't actually want to be doing so that you can say yes to the things that truly inspire you.

1:39:19And like sometimes that's not an overnight process, but sometimes it's honoring that that is a boundary and a need for you and then being able to move slowly in that direction. So I get people to go through like a financial area of life. It's like you can go with friends. You always buy your friends lunch and dinner. You never take, you know, receive. You spend a little too much beyond your boundaries for family members or take care of people financially too much without like honoring. Actually, here's what I can give, which is authentic for me. And here's where I'm over giving from a place of being bound.

1:39:46Really. So I get people to go through like career, financial, mental. A lot of our mental boundaries are things like not sharing our truth about our opinions. Sometimes it's like our opinions philosophically, sometimes it's politically. and I get that that's like a touchy subject, but that can be done in like a mind, or it can just be like, hey, I don't want to talk about this with you. Like it can be like, hey, I have a different opinion, but like, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now. So like, okay, where are your boundaries mentally? Even things about what you're learning emotionally are very much your emotional boundaries.

1:40:14People who are very tuned to other people struggle with their emotional boundaries the most because they feel everybody else's emotions, but they forget to like check in with what they're feeling. And sometimes it's like to the point of, oh, I'll tell you one that was a really big one for me. I'm curious if this ever came up for you. The first couple of years I worked with clients, I was like, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe that I, like, cause I was like really young too. And it was my accident. And I was like, I was like, I can't believe that people want to pay me to help them. Like I, cause all I did my whole life was try to help people anyways.

1:40:45And I remember being like, I remember like literally, this is so funny. I normally don't tell people stuff like this on a podcast, but I remember literally like the first couple of months I would work with clients. I would get in my car on the way home and I would like cry, like happy tears. I was like, I can't believe I get to do this for a living. I can't believe people, like it was just this whole thing. I was like, I just loved it. The best. But then I started growing and growing and growing and had this really long wait list. And then people would be like, oh my God, you've helped me so much.

1:41:13Like, can you see my brother? And I'd be like, I have a wait list for like six months right now, a year. It eventually went to two years. And people would be like, but he's like, he's, he's really struggling. He really needs you. What about like Friday evening? What about like 8.30 Friday evening? And I was a kid and I was trying to like figure out my life and, you know, and, um, and I remember being like, had this rationalization that, oh, I had done so much work on all this healing and I was so good. I was so good compared to what I was prior. So it was a huge jump, but I was like, oh, I'm so good.

1:41:44They're in pain and I'm not. So yeah, I'll help them. Yeah. 8.30 Friday, I'll be there. And I did that for like two years before realizing, because I said boundaries work was really that last big thing for me. I did that for a long time before realizing like, oh my goodness, I lose my boundaries when I think other people are in pain. And I justify not having boundaries. If you're in pain and I'm okay, then I'm going to drop everything. And realizing like, whoa, real boundaries all the way through are being able to still attune to yourself and notice what you need and at least consider yourself quite strongly when someone else that you care about is in pain.

1:42:20And that was this really like funny thing. So anyways, that would be an example of an emotional boundary. I don't know if you've ever. Yeah. Well, rescuer architect, you know, like in IFS, it's like rescuer, the rescuer part of you that's usually like online when you're working with clients is like, and that's a lot of therapists, you know what I mean? They become the healers. And I think for me, yeah, it's almost like I think where I would be leaky with my boundaries was, yeah, my availability, like being available all the time, like to go wherever you want to go. And I think it was just my, how used to in life I was to exiting myself and going into someone else's experience.

1:42:58And so a lot of my days would be like in Slack or in calls, it just fully exiting myself and someone else's experience and just so little time of my own experience, you know? So it was that addiction a little bit of like, yeah, no boundary to myself of like, who am I? What am I going through? And I think I felt that one time I did, like, I just did too many calls one day. Like I had a lot of clients at that time. I just did. And at the end of the day, I was just like bawling. I was like, I'm so like, I felt so empty because I had been exited all day, you know, and I didn't know how to form again after the end of the day.

1:43:36And it was so like, yeah, it was like, where am I after all of this? And where do I place all of this? You know what I mean? And it's like, and I can go deep. I live in the depths all day, but it's at a moment, sometimes it can get a little murky where you're like, okay, 100%. Where's life? And then you end up in a situation where you're like, oh, like, hold on a second. I can't even show up properly for anybody else. Oh my gosh. If I haven't learned to like be in that position myself first. Yeah. I realized how my relationships changed because I took on more clients last year. I worked more deeply with a lot more people and a lot of my personal relationships changed where I had to, I was way less available for people in my life and my relationships.

1:44:18Yeah. You know, and then it's this really tragic cycle of like, oh my gosh. And yeah. So I spent time there for a bit and was like, holy smokes. and then learn like, okay. And, and what I came to, and honestly out of anything of any work that I've done, like my internal dialogue, my core wounds, my needs, my nervous system, communication, the one thing that I still have to like check on myself with more often is like the boundaries piece. Like where am I in the world and in the midst? And what I found that's really interesting is I've been so frigging blessed to do all these things to like, we have our school and our business.

1:44:49And then we have like, I have all these amazing people around me and relationships. I get to do things where I get to talk to people on podcasts for part of my work. Like it's like, sometimes I'm like, this is so amazing. I love this, but I find that I have a hard time sometimes seeing bounce. Oh yeah. Figure out what my boundaries are when they're all great things. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so that's something it's like, okay, I have to be conscious of that and check. And I'll, I'll do a little like evening routine in the evenings. Where am I at with work? Am I good with stuff? Because I think there's certain people who have certain tendencies predisposed to that way.

1:45:17And I know for me in my own conditioning, a lot of my own childhood was like I was always between, I was always in the middle of my parents' stuff. And so my deepest parts of my conditioning were to exit myself and be really present with other people. And from like the youngest of age, like really, really early. And so that constant, I think like true boundaries are being able to stay in your body and also to be able to be like, okay, taking myself into consideration, like the art of taking myself into consideration. Ooh, that sounds super interesting. Oh, that's a really exciting opportunity.

1:45:47How am I on time? How am I in my life right now? Am I overbooking things? Am I under, like, what do I have room for that? Like really being able to think it all the way through. And that's like that sort of practice that I find myself constantly coming back to. I'll never forget. I was with this really, really, it was like years ago when we were on tour and I was, we were staying at this woman's house and she's so, so, so successful, built like multi, so many businesses. And I think we were at her house. She was so nice to have us. She was the best. And I remember asking her, I was like, oh, do you want to do like whatever?

1:46:15I was like, do you want to do this? She's like, let me sit with that for a little bit and like, I'll get back to you. And I had never had someone do that to me of like, sit with it. Think about it. Like have your own response that you thought of. Like, and I literally remember being in that moment being like, what the hell just happened? Like someone being present and attuned to how they feel now, to checking it, like to recognizing that we were in a dynamic that was creating an energy of wanting to say yes, but also not needing to be out of our dynamic to really see if that was true for her. Yeah.

1:46:47And it just like changed my life. I was like, dude, that was the coolest thing. It was literally so cool. I was like, whoa, like she might say no to me. I think she did say no. And then I was like, wow, like, I really think actually, like I've gotten the most, and it's not even my avoidant, but my most pleasure when like, I've had people say like no to me for something, I'm like, wow, that was sick. I'm like, that was really cool. Like that you just like really honored yourself and did that. When, when I was dating my husband, so this is like going back, like we've been together for like almost 11 years and we were dating, we were dating for like three months and he was in this job and he was pretty happy with it, but he wanted to get paid a little bit more.

1:47:26And we were at dinner and he, um, it's funny. I went on to like teach about this after it. I'll share the, there's a really interesting dynamic here, but he ran into his old boss and his boss came up to him and was like, hey, come back and work with us. We need help. And he said like, just straight up in the moment, he was like, I would consider it, but only if you paid me X, Y, Z amount. And he like, just said the amount on the spot. And I remember being like, damn, like I couldn't believe that he just did that. And I was like shocked, but I also was like, oh my gosh, I admired it so much. And I found it so attractive.

1:47:59And what's so interesting is one of the things that really drives attraction. And it's like obviously romantic big time, but actually also like when you see someone and you're like, wow, and you put them on a pedestal in some way, we're so attracted to people who express our repressed traits. And so I take people through this exercise sometimes and it's like, hey, the things that you have on a pedestal, they're usually things that are your own disowned parts, like your own disowned traits that you've repressed. And what's so wild, because I love that you said this earlier, that relationships are our deepest work.

1:48:29I believe that all day long. And what's so interesting is that the exact things that we infatuate with in the dating stage of relationships early on, unless we learn to integrate them in ourselves, we resent them and get so angry about them. And they pull us apart in the power struggle stage of relationships, which is usually like a year and a half to two years in that everybody inevitably goes through. And I remember it's so funny because I remember being like, so that was the things that one of the things I found so attractive is he was like, he would just say how it is. If he didn't want to do something.

1:48:58He'd be like, nope, no, thank you. And it was at that exact time in my life where I also struggled with boundaries. And I would be like, wow. And I just thought it was like so attractive and so amazing. And then, um, and then in the power struggle stage, it turned into, he, he's not making compromises. Like he's not checking in and dah, dah, dah. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is that thing. This is this thing that I've learned about like, okay. And so I learned like, I have to practice being assertive and most so with him. And it was so interesting because for him, he actually had to practice being more flexible sometimes.

1:49:28And as we learned and we actually talked about it and I was like, Hey, I'm feeling like sometimes I need more compromise from you and things. And I need you to check in with me on things. And I'm realizing that I'm starting to feel frustrated when that doesn't happen, but it's also my work to start expressing and communicating it. And like, I actually think it would be really good for you as a person to practice like being more flexible and making more compromises. And he was really good at like being in the work with me and like talking those things out. And he's like, okay. And we talk about it now sometimes where like all this time later, thank God I learned to have better boundaries back then because even though like I'm definitely not perfect there, I came a really long way because I really sucked.

1:50:02And that's helped me enormously through like business and work and just so many things. And he, after he started doing that work, like his relationships flourish. Like outside of just our relationship, I noticed his friendships seep in, his family relationships strengthen. And like, because oftentimes those same things, it reminds me of this Rumi quote and Rumi says, if I'm irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished. And it's like all those things that get to you that bother you. They're like these entry points into yourself if you're willing to look and relationships give us those more than anything.

1:50:31And so I, you know, I often get people like those things that you're so infatuated with at the beginning. It's like, oh, that might be your repressed rate. Like that's a call for you to take on it and to integrate. And you see it too. Like I'm curious if you ever had these, but I remember things like people be like, oh my God, this person's so easy going. I love it. It's then like fast forward a year and a half into dating and they're like oh my god they're not making plans what's going on yeah and so that's always that part of herself true i remember an ex he was like so chill i was like god i just love he's just so easy going and i was like this man never does shit i literally was like the fucking bum around the house and i remember he loved me because i was like life of the party and like so magnetic and and then we'd go out And he'd be like, can't you just freaking take a night off?

1:51:18He'd be like, can you just be quiet? No, he'd literally be like, just fucking take a night off. And it was so weird because I was like, wow, that is like so real. I've had men get so magnetized to my power and then like end up being like afraid of it or like hating it or whatever. And I think that's been one of my fears is being with someone that is afraid of that. But just like a last question, because I think we could literally talk forever. And I know that a lot of women will want to know this because a lot of women, this is one of the greatest questions or not the greatest, but one of the most consistent questions we get is how to get men to do the work.

1:51:55So they'll be in relationships with men and they'll say how to get them to do the work. Like, do you feel like you can convince a man to do the work? Like, cause your husband was willing, you guys did the work together. You deepened. A lot of women are in relationships with men that I don't know if they know what the work is or are afraid. What could that be like for a woman that's in relationship and wants to go deeper, wants to be seen, wants to have a healthier, more reciprocal dynamic? What do you think she could do? Okay. I love this question. I always say to people that like each person in the relationship is a hundred percent responsible for their 50%.

1:52:24And there's no such thing as a healthy relationship where one person does all the heavy lifting. It's not possible. It's not sustainable. You'll resent and that resentment will come out in different ways. But work doesn't always look like sitting down with a notebook and a pen and paper or going to therapy or going to counseling. So for me, and like, I'm going to just say this truthfully, I feel like it sounds kind of like, um, arrogance, but it's not intending. Like if you looked at me, like before I met my husband, I hadn't done, I hadn't done any work. And like, I was crazy. I was probably like the, one of the hardest people to be in a relationship with, you know, but by the time I met my husband, I still had stuff to work out like communication and boundaries and some of those things that, that we were talking about.

1:53:01But I had done a lot of work on like who I was at that point. And I knew what I wanted and what I was looking for. I knew what I needed for myself. And I didn't have all these core wounds bopping around, making me have all these things like get blasted out of proportion. So for me, my husband was not like, oh yeah, I'm going to start going to counseling. My husband was not like, his work was that he took a lot of time to self-reflect and think about himself before we had met and reflect on his own patterns. And he's a reflective person by nature. And so - Those dismissives are. Yeah. They're very - They do be reflected.

1:53:33Yes. And they often are, quite deep. They just don't express it a little. 100%. Yeah. They're in their own little world all the time just being little weirdos. For sure. And so I remember there was a point where I knew that we were like biting heads on some stuff and saying like, hey, we should like sit down and like do the work and like pen and paper or whatever. And I remember him saying like, that's not my thing. If you really want to do it, I'll be open to trying it. But like, that's not how I process. And like what I will do and commit to doing is like, if you bring something up or you want to work through something, I'm going to sit with you in it.

1:54:07Like I'm going to talk through it with you. And I remember being in my head, like I'm holding him to that. Like I am holding, and I, and I really believe this because it's not my own experience. I'm using my own experience because we've been talking about it, but this isn't everybody's experience. You don't convince somebody into like sitting down with a pen and paper. You don't convince somebody to like go to therapy and then suddenly they're like, yes, I love this. I can't wait to be there. You stand in your truth and you honor it fully and you show up that way and you ask for your needs and you say what's coming up for you and you communicate.

1:54:34And if you're really landed in yourself, I find that to be the most effective thing for other people joining into the work around you. So for our example, when something came up for me, I had made a commitment. I was going to tell my needs. That was something I realized after that first time with the hairdresser situation, I was like, okay, this is the work for me. Yeah. I'm like, I'm going to show up and I'm always going to do this. And then the other thing is I was like, I know what I need. And I realized with that assertiveness piece, like I need boundary, I need to have better boundaries and to state my needs and I need flexibility.

1:55:01And I'm going to ask for that in the relationship. And so I think what worked really well in our dynamic is he never sat down and pen and paper. He never went to counseling. He didn't like, it wasn't one of those things. It was like, I was going to show up and when something was on my mind or heart, I was going to say it. And I was going to do it in a really healthy way. And I knew what I needed to feel resolved. So I would lead with that, those conversations and say, this is what's come up for me. This is what I need. And it wasn't, and I never did the work for him. I wasn't like, oh, you might need this or this, or you should try this.

1:55:29I was not going to be somebody's therapist. I was not going to be in like that kind of position because I knew that that wasn't going to be right for me. And I was doing that work already with lots of clients. I didn't, I wasn't going to take on the emotional labor of like both parties in the relationship. So I stood really strong in myself and I would say what my needs are. I would communicate vulnerably. I would do it in a really regulated way. I would like ask for my truth. And I did that really consistently. And what I noticed is very quickly, he would join in and help me and here are my needs, but it gave him permission to do the same.

1:56:01And so within like three months, it went from me sharing and feeling like my needs were more met and I was more seen to him being like, oh, and I need this too. And oh, here's what came up for me. Oh, wait, wait, wait. That's not how this is working. Wait a second.

1:56:18And he got really good at like sharing that. And then that became like the baseline in our relationship. And I remember after like a year of us, like really talking stuff through a lot and feeling like we really understood each other and found our footing. I remember saying like, Hey, you got really good at being vulnerable and like saying that to him. And he was like, and he said, it was so sweet. He was like, it's cause you did it and it made it okay. And he was like, it was just normal for us to talk like that. And like fast forward all this time. It's like, if I had to say one thing I'm the most grateful for in our relationship, it's 100 % that we talk about everything.

1:56:50Like if something comes up, like one of, If something, any little weird, whatever, we're going to hash it out because we like, it's a skill we acquired, we developed. And like, that's what I really want for everybody's relationships. Because the more you normalize communication, the more you practice it, it's messy at first. It's not going to be like perfect, but there's no forcing somebody into doing the work. There's a vetting. There's a part where you can be like, I'm going to do the work. I'm going to show up and they're going to join in or they're not. And if they don't and you're not happy, then that's probably not the right relationship for you.

1:57:21but you have to get into a place where you're going to show up in your truth fully. And that's going to be where somebody is most likely to join in and start doing that same kind of communication practice. Yeah. It's like you exemplified, you led by doing it yourself and really gave him like a model and a template of like being the lead of how you feel in your needs. And then he felt like he could do it too. Yeah. Which is so good. Yeah. And there was no convincing. There was no, and there was no me like handholding him through it. Like it was like, he's going to either take it on and figure it out or he's not.

1:57:51And that's going to, and I honestly was at that point in my life because it was pretty early into the relationship that I was like, I'll see, like, I'll watch, I'll see how he shows up and responds. And like, I'm going to honor myself. And if he never communicates back or never communicates with me, like I will reconsider the relationship, but let's see. And, and I speak for my own example, but I've seen this with like countless people where when one person just does what they're going to do. And usually it's the person, some people are like, I don't want to have to be the one to communicate first.

1:58:18Like, listen, if you're the one doing the work and you are the one with the more emotional awareness, you'd always rather be in that position than the alternative. And so, you know, sure, you're going to lead by example, but the place it gets burdensome is when you're doing it for the other person and that's not the goal. But when somebody really shows up and they're really honest and authentic in themselves, then that allows for that type of communication to be fostered. And then you can see how somebody responds accordingly and make your decisions from there. Wow. I think the first thing that I've really just landed is that I've had dated someone that I thought was a narcissist and they're avoidant, dismissive avoidant.

1:58:52I'm so sorry for them. And then the second is about the subconscious. I love the part about affirmations and I love the practice that you gave that anybody can do. I think that's amazing. I love how you talked about how attachment styles are flexible and how it's really about meeting those core wounds. I love how you talk about the core wounds before nervous system regulation. I think that's super, super powerful. I love how communication comes a little bit later in the process. And this has just been so, so fun. This is so fun. I loved talking with you and hanging out with you. I'm going to come over.

1:59:26I was like, yeah, I'm coming to Laura Panion. I would love that. I'm coming to the spot you're at. This won't be the last time. It's so funny. I don't know what that sound was, but I was like, did you hear that earlier? Yeah. I thought maybe you had a cat like smacking something. That's what I thought so too, but there's nothing. It was like, there's no cat in here no oh your cats are not here no oh crazy i know isn't that weird oh maybe it was my my spirit of my dog because honestly i told myself when he passed i was like um my signal i was like i want to sign from it it's going to be butterflies and i'm like sitting facing the butterfly and i noticed it around the time i felt i like clicked around the time i heard i don't know maybe it was bull no when that happened i was like it's him oh in my mind i literally thought that too and it's so funny too, was that one of the reasons I thought that is he, at the end he was on all this prednisone.

2:00:13So he was like always frigging hungry. He would always smash his bowl. And I was like, I pictured it. I was like, well, maybe it's just your cat smashing the bowl. But I, that thought passed my mind. I was like, there's no cat in here. That's so weird. Okay. Where can people find you? Where can they connect with you? Like if they want to get into you and your work, what would be the first entry point you would suggest them into? They probably know who you are, but still. I would just say, go take our quiz. We have a quiz. Love it. It's like it gives you a whole report and like it's not just traditional attachment theory it's it's like um integrated attachment theory so it's your core wounds your needs it gives you like an in-depth report the way your nervous system will function your types of boundary patterns you'll have your communication places you'll go wrong like it gives you the full in-depth report and then kicks you off with like here's how to start the process so there and then um i'm on instagram which is at the personal development school and at youtube which is thais gibson dash personal development school amazing and thank you so much for having me this is the most fun i've ever have another podcast.

2:01:05It's not going to be our last. So don't worry. Okay, guys, we'll see you soon. I love you. Bye. Thank you guys so much for tuning into that one. Make sure to share it with a friend, start a conversation about it, talk about attachment theory, go to personal development school on Instagram and check out the new book that she has, The New Attachment Theory. Again, that was Thais Gibson and she is such an incredible guest and I'm glad she came on. Thank you all for listening. You're the best. Again, subscribe to the show. It means the world to us. And if you feel called or moved to leave a review, we love that.

2:01:39Thank you. Thank you. thank you in advance. Okay, everybody, we have two new episodes every single week. We'll catch you on the next one. Love you guys. Bye.