886. Mark Manson on why personal growth can backfire

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0:35It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan,$15 a month, even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. There's some pretty jarring statistics. For example, I found that in the US, 40 % of people who want mental health support don't have access to it.

1:08I started realizing, I'm like, okay, this is a massive scale issue. So I was like, okay, that makes sense that there's just all this latent demand. This doesn't even get into the shame. There's a lot of people that probably secretly want help, but they're ashamed of going and getting it. I don't think people always really understand or see how awkward and uncomfortable and painful growth is and like how your relationships change. For people to really understand growth, can you like peel back the veil of what it really looks like to grow and evolve and change? A lot of your relationships are going to be based on that false identity that you've been carrying.

1:43So as soon as you shed that false identity, a friend or a family member or a partner shows up and is like, what the fuck you changed? What happened to you?

2:06Welcome to Almost 30 Podcast. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the show. It's Lindsay. And Krista. And we're here. And we're here. For you. Today, I'm really excited about this episode. I got to sit down with Mark Manson in Los Angeles, someone I've looked up to, known about for quite some time. And I just was surprised and delighted. Like, knew he would be cool, but we had the best time during our conversation. It just felt so natural and organic. And I feel like it's maybe a different side and a different conversation that he's had. So I'm really excited for the Almost 30 audience to be able to listen.

2:36Yeah, we were just chatting about kind of his legacy in this space and how he like really was kind of a pioneer on like a lot of concepts. I feel like today we're like, oh, yeah, we live by that now. I think one of the biggest ones is in, you know, his original book that just blew up and still is such a mainstay today. the subtle art of not giving a fuck is that humans are always going to care about something, but you have to decide what you're going to care about. And you have to be selective about how many fucks that you give about stuff. It was interesting because during our conversation, we talked about subtle art.

3:10And what was so fascinating was there's a lot of concepts that are not as new that he talks about, but he is such an interesting writer and thinker. Like the way that he writes and thinks is so outside of the box, so unique, so creative. And it gave me this reminder and inspiration of creators and artists today because I think with ChatGPT and AI that it can feel kind of overwhelming as far as creativity goes but the reason why his work has been so profound is because he's so incredibly creative but speaking of AI in this conversation we actually talked about his app so he created an app and it's called the Purpose app and the Purpose app is cool because it takes something that a lot of people are already doing with chat GPT or Claude, which is processing their feelings or emotions or almost using it as like a therapist.

3:58And the purpose app is so much more clear. It's so much more helpful. It's so much better of a guide than chat GPT or Claude. And so purpose really allows people to achieve their goals, to work through things, to navigate advice and things they're going through in life on the app. And I've been using it. It's actually really, really cool excited for almost 30 to listen our community and family and excited for any new people to join us on the show um again this was mark manson you can find mark manson pretty much anywhere the book that made him really famous was the subtle art of not giving a fuck he has his youtube he has his podcast and then he has the purpose app which is really an ai support and tool that is much more able to guide you than a clot or a chat yeah amazing awesome mark i'm excited for this one.

4:48Thank you all for listening. Make sure you're subscribed to the show anywhere you listen to pods. And also it would mean so much to us if you subscribed on YouTube. So this is a place where you could watch the podcast, Krista and I in the flesh with our guests. I just feel like you pick up on so much more when you're watching video, the nuance and the conversation, the energy, and you just, I have a totally different experience when I'm watching video podcasts. So please subscribe to us there. And we're on all socials at almost 30 podcasts on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at Lindsay Simzig on Instagram.

5:21And I'm at it's Krista. Enjoy this one. We'll see you on the other side. Bye. As someone that's been in the space for as long as you have been, and I mean that in like a respectful way, because some of these people will say that to me. I'm like, excuse me. But how do you like take that? Because you started with like pure intention, authenticity expressing and explaining like showing up in this way of like genuine curiosity for feeling better living better growing and then now it's like everything is sort of hard to place as real or not yeah it's a business i mean that's the short answer it's like i think at a certain point because yes you do come with very pure genuine intentions and and i still have genuine intentions but there was a certain inflection point around a certain amount of audience certain amount of money we were like this is a business yeah and um ultimately i need to make sure that i'm doing the right thing like the relationship with the audience changes a little bit yeah it's no longer like there are things that are true and authentic about myself that like i wouldn't necessarily make content about now because it like i reach so many people and it could be potentially harmful or hurtful or construed in the wrong way or misinterpreted by certain certain people that uh that you're just like okay yeah no you can't really make that content anymore or like we were talking about earlier there are certain things that like i'm like no no i need to keep that for myself because that could actually complicate my personal life now if i did like i don't know if this has happened to you yet but it like one of the things that starts happening is is you start you know you'll casually tell a personal story and all of a sudden like somebody you went to high school with that was in that story reaches out and they're like what the fuck man like you know i what if it's your mom that was my immediate family they're like oh i get my mom calls me like like three times a year wasn't that bad yeah she's like it was we did our best with what we know it's so funny one christmas she sits me down she goes am i a narcissist yeah i i definitely find myself apologizing my mom a lot but it was funny like i did um i did a youtube video a couple years ago on uh on on drinking on my just my experience with drinking and um and getting sober and um and in it i had a bunch of old photos of like me at parties in college and these people people i didn't like people i didn't even know in the photos reaching out with angry because the video went viral it got millions of views and so i started getting all these emails from people in in the photos in the video people i didn't remember i didn't even know at the time but they're in the background or whatever hold in like a a red solo cup yeah of course light and and they're like you got to airbrush me out you got to take that down they're like really mad and uh so it's it's i know the relationship shifts and it changes and um and i i think about to me it's kind of a venn diagram of like you know i try to hold on to what i care deeply about and what feels very important to me and and then i also the the other circle in the venn diagram is kind of like okay what's good for business yeah like what's good for the audience yeah and and then i just try to live in that overlap yeah i do think even people that aren't creators as their business are kind of grappling with the internet and AI and where things are going and like what is precious what is mine what is someone else's so I do think it's like kind of a collective thing now because we are so public and exposed online to think about what we share and what we don't share what we're open about and what we don't and I think it's been interesting to kind of navigate in this world of what is mine and what is to be shared when I talked to like Gen Z young Gen Zers you know kids who are like 20.

9:16What do the kids say? They don't care. They're like the idea of like privacy doesn't even really register. Whereas I think for like my generation it was like a very Huge. Our parents? Oh my god. Oh and then our parents were like don't even get online. So I don't know. There is a weird question around like what do you own? What do you have a right to? What do you give up? And I think that like the answer is different for everybody but it's hard to know. I think I had no clue what I was getting into. Yeah back when I started I was 24 when I started I had no idea what I was not no prefrontal cortex And had no idea like the long-term repercussions.

9:58Yeah of just like being very public about my life being a public figure and being public facing It's turned out great and like I think I'm very well adapted to it Like my personality seems to deal with it. Well But I have a number of friends who are on the other side of that, who are like, I hate being recognized. Every time I go in public, I feel like I'm being watched. It's like I'm anxious all the time. I'm like really worried about like somebody is going to see me or like I'm going to be in a restaurant. I'm going to get mad at the waiter and the waiter is going to be a fan and they're going to go get online and talk all this shit about me.

10:38You know, so it's it's it's I get it. I don't, yeah, I don't worry about that stuff, but like I can see like certain personalities, I think. And it's funny too, because it's like you see like it's kind of the same old story just remixed in a new way. Like you used to see this with celebrities, right? It's like some people handle their celebrities very well. And then some celebrities just go completely off the rails and self implode. And I think the same is true with like with Internet personalities. some it's like i've seen with internet personalities or people it's like they're just creating art or doing what they love and for and a bunch of people just ended up liking it and then it made them like a public figure yeah you know what i mean it made them be someone but it's actually not natural to their nature to have that like there's someone called emma chamberlain and she's like you know her and she's not necessarily like the most social it's interesting because i've actually seen that be um a superpower for some creators to not be as social and kind of create this universe or world that people can step in and people can be in but they're not so close to their audience or other people that it kind of makes them step outside of it so they continue to be a character in other people's reality does that make sense yeah but even thinking about you know your journey of like figuring out what your relationship was to the audience and what you're sharing what you're not sharing was there anything that you shared that you're like, oh.

12:01Not really. I'm pretty, like, I'm an open book where I've had to learn to censor myself is either around things that maybe aren't in the audience's best interest or is potentially complicating, like, people in my life. Yeah, of course, of course. But again, I think I'm just kind of wired, okay? Yeah. There's an interesting counter example of this, and I actually admire the hell out of him for choosing this. So I'm old friends with James Clear, the guy who wrote Atomic Habits. It's funny because he and I started blogging around the same time. We actually became friends as bloggers and then we both got book deals around the same time.

12:43I was kind of like maybe a year or two ahead on the same trajectory or path as him. His book came out a year or two after mine. Mine became a huge bestseller. His became a huge bestseller. and so we were each kind of confronted with a lot of the same experiences and and uh opportunities around the same time and but we have very different personalities and so my personality i'm just yours is better yeah clearly clearly but i'm kind of like my personality i'm just all gas no brakes like i just yeah i i'm very risk on i i'm the i don't give a fuck right it's like yeah fuck it let's do it let's see what happens right and that has its advantages and it also has its disadvantages is James is a much more conscientious he's the type of guy who like takes a step back and he like really thinks hard about like okay what do I want what am I what am I optimizing for and like before I make any major decisions and it was interesting because when Atomic Habits like really went supernova he had all these things that he was you know all these different opportunities on the table in front of him and and once he realized the book was just selling that many copies he was like you know what i'm just gonna go be a dad dude and respect so he's he hasn't done video he doesn't do social he sends one newsletter a week he does a bunch of corporate speaking gigs and stuff which because they just pay insane and he just hangs out with his kids and so like i look at that and i'm like i admire the hell out of that that's not how i'm wired but like I respect the discipline and the like the self-awareness to just be like this is what I'm going to do.

14:24Totally. I'm more like you and so when people are like that I'm like fucking yeah. I'm like that's the goal. Have you heard of um the book called Driven by Douglas Brackman? No. So in the book called Driven it basically talks about how when people are like what you're describing that are more driven they actually there's genetic differences in someone that is driven and never satisfied. And they actually, there's different like brain chemistry where you're more hardwired to respond to dopamine than other people like that. There's actually like marked physiological and biological differences in people that are really driven and people that kind of can't stop.

14:58And it's been helpful for me to kind of land in that because I've always felt like I should be doing it differently. You know what I mean? And like, I should be, I should want less or I should be okay. Like James, like, like I admire that cause that would never be me, but there's a part of me that's like maybe that should be me you know like would that be nice like if you do that how did you learn to just kind of understand yourself so deeply where you're like no I'm all gas no brakes like this is how I am this is how he is like it's a good example of two different types of personalities did you ever have a moment where you're like I should be more like this person for sure yeah and I even tried uh so I got burnt out so subtle or not giving a fuck came out 2016 became massive 2017 had a whole bunch of opportunities so I did over the next four years I did two books and a movie and completely burnt myself out a world speaking tour like all this stuff so in 2021 I was like you know maybe I should maybe I should hit the brakes right should take some time off take a sabbatical and uh it was so hard it was so hard the more I sat around and just tried to enjoy life the more I was like I should be doing something and uh it was actually really interesting because i mean the conclusion i've come to is is uh you really everybody's built different and like the optimal life for me is going to be different than what it is for you it's going to be different than what it is for james and what it is for whoever else is listening to this uh and i i feel like so much of personal growth it's not really about changing yourself it's it's either discovering or embracing who you already are right and so for me there was like this resistance for a lot of years of like i'm a workaholic i i burn myself out i go too hard i have no chill mode i'm like i say yes to too many things and sure a lot of those things are problems in certain contexts and on the margins but like it was very liberating at a certain point just to realize that i'm one of those people i'm like i need to be working on something like if i'm not working on something i'm miserable and that's okay like because working on like if you're a person who loves working on stuff then that's actually a great problem to have because then you get to go do really useful and interesting things all the time uh so i've just like very much embraced that and uh and i've actually been much more paradoxically much more at peace since i did and just accept well it's almost like well you're pressing the gas but you're also pressing the brakes because you're like i shouldn't be doing this you know there's something i should be doing something else yes and when you can just kind of let that go and i've had to do that with like my desire for success like i would just be like i want to be successful but then i'd be like i'm driving myself crazy because i want to be successful you know what i mean like i feel like i hate that i want to be successful and then i do this work called internal family systems.

17:50It's a psychotherapy technique. And in it, they call that polarization. It's like when you have a desire, but then you have like a judgment of the desire. And that polarization just takes so much energy from you. That's where the suffering is. Yeah, the suffering, exactly, where you're in judgment of like your true desires of your path. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Can we normalize needing support before we're completely overwhelmed? I think so many of us wait until we're at our breaking point to ask for help when support doesn't have to be a last resort. BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2 ,000 Americans and revealed that 85 % of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74 % say society discourages people from doing so.

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20:47It's a good question. I definitely like a big thing for me is, and this is more on the personal side, but like, I I think I underestimated for a long time how compulsive I can be I was very cavalier about I guess just my lifestyle it was a very unhealthy lifestyle so a lot of drinking a lot of partying a lot of traveling and it was I was very functional so in my head it was I'm like I'm fine but looking back it was you know once i stopped drinking and i slowed down and i stopped partying and i started traveling much less i realized i'm like wow i was just i was out of control and i was kind of like deluding myself into thinking you know just because i could wake up hung over in a hotel room and get some stuff done and uh you know not my my life wasn't a catastrophe it didn't mean that I was actually behaving the way I wanted to be.

21:53Yeah, totally. Or being the person I wanted to be. And it's ironic. It was like when I stopped drinking, I started noticing that I was like very compulsive in all these areas of my life that I hadn't noticed before. And I was like, oh, okay, maybe I am a bit of a compulsive person. Maybe I do need to like chill out and look at what I want, my impulses and my decisions a little bit more carefully. And again, that's just a, it's not so much of like changing. It's actually the opposite of changing in many ways. It's like recognizing what you already are and accepting it and just being like, you know, for most of my adult life, I was kidding myself.

22:35I was like pretending that I wasn't this impulsive person who probably said yes a little bit too quickly and too often. And now I'm like, okay, that is the person I am. So let's adapt appropriately. That's so fascinating because it's like I've heard that before of like accepting who you are is like the unlock. And, you know, Carl Rogers, like the father of therapy, talks about the paradox of transformation. To transform something, you must first accept it. But it's so interesting hearing you talk about it because I'm like learning it differently and thinking about it even in my own work of like I was in the corporate world for a while.

23:16And it's like I was just lying to myself in that I was like I'm such a creative person. I'm such a leader. So it was like in this corporate world identity, like it was like I was pretending to be someone that I wasn't the entire time. And it's almost like if I could have stopped pretending, it's almost like releasing and letting go of the fake identities allows the real ones to come and be seen. and I think sometimes we focus so much on like being the things that we are where we can just release the things that we're not yeah and I I think a lot of this takes a certain amount of life experience just yeah right like if you think back to when you were a teenager what every teenager does is what do you do you try on a bunch of identities totally every year I was different yeah like and half of them are embarrassing you have no idea like you're just not mine though oh you were the cool you were the cool girl my pencil skirt and pumps year was sick i was pto president year that was like sick but um but you have to go through this phase you have to like try on all these different identities to realize like okay that that one doesn't really fit this one fits a little bit i like some aspects of it but it's like not totally me and like this one's okay but i don't like the people that i associate with or whatever it's like this experimentation phase and i feel like that experimentation phase actually drags out into adulthood like it never really stops it just slows down and you get you you you approach and get much closer to who you actually are as you go and it um and i and i do feel to the carl rogers point that like what most of us experience is like a transformative change really is actually just that experience of coming home to yourself of realizing like oh i've been faking this for 20 years and I don't have to or oh I've been in denial about this about myself for 10 years and I don't have to be anymore telling yourself the truth is so huge like creating a safe internal space for you to have safety of the truth and I think when I allowed myself to always tell myself the truth and then because what was happening where I wouldn't tell myself the truth for so long is because then I'd be like I have to change it I have to do this it's like being able to be in process of the truth.

25:32I'm like, oh, I'm recognizing this thing. I'm doing this thing. I'm drinking too much or I'm, you know, being out of integrity. I'm distracted, whatever. And it'll be like, okay, that's my truth. And then I'd be like, okay, we can sit with that truth before like having to immediately change. Why do you think people lie to themselves? Like, why do you think people are in denial? Like, what do you think is happening? Because so many people are and it's keeping them from a life of purpose and love and relationships and the one that they want. They're scared. You know, we're all scared. sometimes it's because of something in our past bad that has happened to us and so we've kind of built these layers of narratives on top of it to hide it um other times it's it's just a fear of what could potentially happen or might happen that we don't um want to think about or accept right you know we don't want to imagine a world where certain people we care about don't care about us or we don't want to imagine a world where we don't have financial security or whatever it is So instead of considering those really scary prospects, we make up stories about ourselves and buy into them.

26:41Oh, that's interesting. It's almost like to protect the outside instead of the into. Were you always somewhat like, when did you land on, I have to accept this? Because I think a lot of people seek to change most of the growth. I think that was my whole thing until maybe three, four years ago. where I was like, oh, I need to accept it. Were you trying to change for a long time a lot of aspects of yourself? Yes. What was that like? I have a very vivid and powerful imagination. I think it's why I'm a good writer. But a side effect of that is that I'm particularly good at deluding myself. And I got very, so a little background story.

27:28I grew up in a – this is where I apologize to my mom preemptively. Sorry, mom, if you're listening. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family, and nobody was happy. And so I – and it was weird because it was very – And they weren't happy because of you. Clearly. It was all my fault. I know why they weren't happy.

27:54But it was a situation where it was like materially everything was fine. It was like very upper middle class, waspy, suburb, you know, everything on the surface was like great, but nobody's happy. Nobody's fine. So I got very much into self-help, personal development, probably 15, 16 years old and started getting really into it. Started reading a bunch of Tony Robbins books and started meditating when I was like 17 and got really into Buddhism. And I was all in. I mean, I was just all gas, no breaks. Right. So it was, you know, I started going to seminars when I was in college and and it really felt like I was having all these breakthroughs and transformations and I was a new person every other every other week, you know.

28:40And but meanwhile, as time went on, it was at some point you can't ignore that, like the patterns are the same. You know, it's like it's the same, the same, the same problem just with a different outfit. on you're like i had a breakthrough this week yeah exactly and so this went on for a number of years and um and i just it felt like i was actually kind of spinning my tires like stuck in place yeah and i would say by the time i got to like my mid-20s i was pretty frustrated and uh fed up with the whole thing i kind of became very cynical about it um and i i guess somewhere around that time it's you know around that time I started writing online I started building an audience I started initially I kind of fell into an early career as a dating relationship coach for young men primarily and I think I just started become a little bit more self-aware as I was like having to deal with other people's problems or try to coach people through their stuff it gave me a lot of perspective on stuff i had gone through and maybe as i watched other people convince themselves that they just transform but then go on and do the exact same behaviors that they did before it kind of made me start looking at myself and being like huh i i've been down that road um and so yeah i i kind of went through this period of of becoming very i guess critical and looking, I'm like, okay, well, if all this self-help stuff is like generally pointing people in the right direction, but it's like not, the breakthroughs aren't really breakthroughs, then like what is the actual breakthrough?

30:27Like what is the actual change? And I started just doing a lot of reading around philosophy and psychology. and um and i guess kind of the answer was like what i ended up landing on b is what became the subtle art of not giving a fuck which is that it's like look it's ultimately you have to choose what you care about and whatever you care about there's going to be a set of subset of problems associated with that doesn't matter there's like no goal or achievement in life that does not have some associated suckage with it and it's you can't avoid that so you might as well pick the thing that has the sacrifice or the struggle that you like you actually kind of enjoy or is like invigorating to be a part of um and then a certain amount of that too is is just being a little bit realistic of like look you don't necessarily have to change all the time you don't have to have breakthroughs all the time like it's life is supposed to be hard you're you're always going to have insecurities you're always going to struggle you're always going to doubt certain aspects of yourself like there's nothing abnormal about that so maybe it's maybe the problem isn't those things maybe the problem is that you're trying to get rid of them and um and so that that's kind of become the basis of my work ever since but um i completely forgot what your initial question was but we know we were on the journey it was perfect because i asked what made you get there because you were in the self-development space and a lot oftentimes it's like about changing and fixing yourself yeah but just accepting yourself is kind of like soft yeah you know there's like a softness to it well and there's this fear too of like well if i accept if i accept myself then like yes then nothing i'm not gonna achieve or do anything i'm just gonna be stuck in this shit hole that i'm in right now yeah whereas and so it is it is very paradoxical that it's uh and i believe the carl rogers quote is is that it's once i accept myself then i'm able to change um i i would say that it's i think you described it well and that it's the the internal contradiction of i am this way i don't want to be this way one way to think about it is like that internal contradiction like just saps up so much yes mental and emotional energy yes um that as soon as you resolve that internal contradiction it's it's like you get this like it's like taking a shot of espresso every day.

32:58You just get all this energy. There's like a sense of liberation and freedom. But that's not apparent to somebody who's living in that contradiction. It feels like one side has to win.

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33:53I've also been taking their berberine because most berberine absorbs at less than 1 % and theirs was designed to deliver significantly better bioavailability to support metabolism, blood sugar, and craving support. Start taking supplements your body can actually absorb. Go to absorbmore.com and enter almost 30 at checkout for up to 35 % off your first order. That's absorbmore.com and enter almost 30 at checkout for 35 % off your first order. What would you think about, it's very easy for me to be like, oh, I really want to be successful. And I'm like, it's annoying. But then I'm like, that's good.

34:33You know, like the rewards are good. But what about when people feel like I'm a loser and then they don't want to accept that they feel like a loser? Like what about the negative things about people that they think about? Like how do they accept those things? Like how do you think they would transform those negative thoughts? I think, again, the only way to transform those negative thoughts is to accept that you have them. If you try to deny that you feel like you're a loser, then you're never going to be able to address the fact that you feel like a loser, and it's going to persist. I think once you accept that that thought is there, you can start investigating, like, why is it there?

35:10Where did that come from? Loser by what metric? How are you measuring what losing is? And by the way, people can have the same problem thinking they're a winner, right? There are a lot of people out there who think they're winners and they are definitely not. So true. Here's something so, I'll never forget this. I'm from Ohio. Yeah. So small town in Ohio. I'll never forget going to school one day. There was like a Taco Bell by my house and it said Taco Bell now hiring winners only. I was in high school and I was like, dude, even at that age, I was like, that's so bad. So amazing. Like the people that are just like the winner's mindset only.

35:54Subtle Art was such a huge like culture shifting book and phenomenon. Is there one section or part that people always reference that are like, yo, this was like huge. Like is there one thing that people always come to you with? People love the Disappointment Panda section. Explain that to us. it's funny because there was a part in chapter two where i was trying to make some of these points about how a lot of the stuff that i just said to you right that it's like uh life is just kind of a struggling is inevitable right it's like the the resolution of one problem really just introduces another problem so when you change something in your life it's not that you're getting rid of problems you're actually just exchanging one set of problems for a new set of problems and hopefully that new set of problems is a better set that's what a better life is it's just better problems uh we were talking about um you know having a neighbor and having your amazon packages delivered to the wrong hopefully they're not listening the wrong house like that's a problem i mean i don't know your backstory but that's a problem that i imagine like 15 years ago you'd be like that'd be a great problem totally like oh my god if i had if i had a nice house in la and like my amazon package i know dude yeah like it's but it's but today you're like god fucking amazon fucking neighbor and but that's just life that's like all of life is that way so i was like i had this section the way it was written it was it was quite a downer i was like this just sounds so bleak but it's not it's really guys stay with me yeah i'm like i'm like it's really not bleak but like it just sat on the page it just sounded so hopeless yeah despondent and i was like okay we got we have to find a way to like liven this up and make this fun and uh and i don't i don't even know where it came from but it was um superhero movies were big at the time and so i was just like if i could invent a super a superhero uh initially it was just like i want a superhero that tells people truths that they don't want to hear wow um and then i was like okay cool this character can deliver those bleak yeah those bleak truths that nobody wants to hear and i was like well let's we should make this funny wow let's make it a panda yeah and let's give him a sombrero why because cuz just cuz yeah like who he needs a sombrero and uh oh we're gonna drink margaritas as he tells us this and um and so i wrote this whole section out it's like very weird and wild and crazy and and people love it um the the the craziest thing is is people i've at this point i've probably seen a half a dozen disappointment panda tattoos like people will come to my events and stuff and or like send me pictures of like a disappointment panda tattoo and it's surreal.

38:51Very surreal. It's really surreal, yeah. Wow, that's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure to take on. What's interesting is like thinking about your success and it's like that's a portion of but attributes to why you're so successful. I will say being pregnant again has made me even more intentional about the choices I'm making. I've done a few episodes on this. I found myself reading labels more closely, investing in higher quality. products and asking what do I actually trust enough to use every single day? My standards have definitely gotten higher. That's one of the reasons ritual has remained part of my routine.

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