893. Drop the "good girl" in you + embrace your desires: Spiritual practices to transform shame with Elise Loehnen

45:49But in the past few years, as I've watched other people repackage and better market and hit that algorithm hard, in a way, it's been really healthy for me to say, and I won't do it. And I choose not to do it. And I recognize that that's what's required and I can be grumpy about it. And no thanks. Like, it makes me tired. and I have sort of an energetic rejection. And because of that, I'm never going to be Mel Robbins and I am never going to cut NCIS trailers to spike people's cortisol and hook them. I mean, even all the language, influence, brand, hook. I'm like, I don't want that. I know. This is so refreshing and I think it's so, I think our audience is going to feel so refreshed doing it because they're very deep women that have a lot of integrated intention.

46:49And I'm not saying that other people don't, but I've had that similar sentiment and feeling where I'm just like, to what end and to what for? And I kind of am trying to work my way and having my true desire for success because that's a truth in me. I want success for my life. I want to become who I came here to be. And I don't want it at the expense of being on the constant rat race of more. more what? More clicks, more views, more, because that doesn't feel human to me. It doesn't feel connected to me. And so I've been kind of trying to make sense of things of where am I denying or where am I pushing away some of the things that people do for success?

47:32Because I feel like maybe I'm not good enough or I can't have that where I'm like, no, not for me, but it's because I don't have self-worth enough to believe I can. And then where's my actual truth of discernment of like, that actually isn't a path that I'm on. How do you make sense of that as someone that is very deep, that obviously wants success in your life, but also doesn't want it at the expense of burning yourself out, doing too much, like not being who you are? Yeah. Well, I think that I have, and it's partly, I think, from being in the media business for a long time and having a deep understanding of audience.

48:05And I probably have, it's like I have your people 10 years older, right? Right. And and I love, you know, in my past parts of my career, there's I've had identity crises where I'm like, I'm not this person. Right. And or there's so much projection. And what I found is I've been on my own for six years standing for myself, doing my own work, is that the people who find me do not. Whenever I meet them, I'm like, you like my podcast? Like, you read my book? I'm so flattered. And I find a deep resonance that it's not actually a parasocial relationship. Nobody wants to be me. They want to be with me as we're figuring this all out, right?

48:55They want to read the books that I want to read. They want to go deep into like G.I. Gurdjieff and Third Way and mysticism. And I'm a helpful guide for them. And I spend my career cultivating this for them so they can go and do whatever it is that they do in their lives and then come to me for that. So that gives me like that's very sustaining and it feels calorie rich. And and then lately, particularly as we're going through this A.I. shift and sort of trying to understand what's going to be what in this new world. um there's i've always been more of a quality over quantity person and so to me it's more about depth like who is doing this work with me which feels more pressing than ever and as these myriad unfolding poly crises you know are happening like who um have you ever read have you gone deep on David Hawkins at all letting go and power versus force and when you think about like the map of consciousness for example and I don't remember the exact algebra but it's like 10 more conscious people is a counterweight to like a million unconscious people and so that's where I think my work is and I think that that consciousness comes from just knowing ourselves a little bit better taking a few more things out of the shadow bag getting a little more integrated a little bit more whole there's more room for light there's more room for shadow um but that's that's where i focus and it's hard because there's a lot of noise it's interesting though because you you're not necessarily taking people to a flag point of like this is what it is this is what we're here for this is my side this is what I'm you know and that makes it what I perceive and this is something maybe a story I tell myself where I'm like then that makes it if you are creating and you are you are with a community of conscious people that are interested in nuance and depth and looking at every way and not really having like a firm stance in a lot of different things but exploring different aspects of things it's harder to kind of like have the the stake.

51:19But I think that you are similar in the sense that even the name, Almost 30, it's like it suggests a process, right? Like you're not there. It's like an indefined moment in time and moment in your life where there is no there. You're not staying. Like there's a there there. It's like I am almost there and I am almost there. I've had fantasies of years ago renamed me. I was like we should call it almost always and they were like too much seo i was like thank you so much it's like thank you so much for telling me that about my friend talking about the identity thing yeah i feel like i'm constantly in an identity shift but also because i'm in my experience i'm not seeing the fullness of it yeah you've had public identity shifts how do you make sense of them now and how are you making sense of them then yeah i mean in the in the sense of not knowing what I wanted.

52:12I feel like I lived my life a bit on autopilot. I would have said I was in relationship with the universe. That felt very true to me. Like I, when I was a magazine editor in my 20s at Condé Nast, I had this not very big realization, but to me it felt huge of, you know, I was a kid who was always looking to excel and, you know, be great and get good grades and like do all the things and because I thought like life was like a star search program to send you wouldn't even watch. I remember star search. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, now that's just like our Instagram feed. Yeah. But you would grow up with these stories as in now I'm closer to 50 than 40 where it's like someone was discovered in the mall or like won a talent.

53:01That was like the programming for the 80s. Be ready at all times. Be ready at all times to be picked. Yeah. You're at the mall. you're like it's happening in montana it's gonna happen someone's gonna see me someone's gonna recognize my specialness and i was at condenast as a magazine editor and i had this highly abusive co-worker it was a mess it was like devil wears prada time people think i always tell my interns the cooler the job the core of the company the worst the job is yeah the worst the culture and And it was, I made some of my best friends there, as you do in your early 20s. Yeah. And it was really fun and wild.

53:45But I was also, it's the first time I had a panic attack because I was like, I don't, I need a job and I can't, this woman is once my head on a stake. And I was just like, who's going to pick me? Like, who's going to find me? Who's going to like pluck me out of this job and see me as a star and exalt me? And then I was like, no one's coming. you have to put yourself in motion and that's such a dumb lesson but it was so important savior complex is huge savior it's layered though layered and i was looking for a man i was like some same all these you know guy rich guy you know corporate lawyers i was like someone's gonna put me in a you know a junior six or junior eight on the upper east side and i'll be out of this mess which is hilarious it's so because you're just like looking around you're like one day one day I'm gonna come and grab my bag and it's like it's like the Carolyn Bessette you're like one day my JFK is gonna come home I actually in the past two years I was realizing that in the relationship that I was in that I was holding myself back subconsciously because I had the perception I needed to do that for him to excel yeah to like then save us like I had to be be not as big so that he could somehow save me and I was still doing that with men until a few years ago where I was like, I'm going to marry a rich man.

55:03He's going to allow, and what I had to do was, okay, so if I had the perception I was going to be saved by a rich man, what did I perceive that rich man was going to give me? Safety, security, money. And what does that do for me? Oh, if I had him, I could rest. And I realized I was making this long journey to finding a billionaire, to marrying him, to like selling my soul to be on a private jet while he's on the phone, to like rest. You know, like it's a girl, just take a load off. Like you actually are making the prison that you're living in for yourself. Yeah. And you are making this so hard for you.

55:42And I've been really working like, I'm the one that's going to save me. I'm the one that's like going to create the life. And I'm the person that's causing this scenario that I need saving from. And women do that so much. Yeah. And I think in my construct of safety, security, money, it was like, oh, so I can be myself. Wow. and but what was so interesting you know being in new york in the 2000 early 2000s at connie nass and being sort of the we all dated the same guy like you'd go to a dinner and you'd be like oh i went on a date with him and i went on a date with oh you went on a date with adam doll like he's a weirdo like freak malcolm gladwell i think we all dated malcolm gladwell um but he's a nice guy but But anyway, but you have this also very strange experience with these guys where they treat, they're like, oh, it's nice that you have some walking around.

56:36They treat you like you have a jobby. A hobby. Okay. I just got the joke. Jobby is hobby and job. Some walking away, some shoe money. But yeah, nobody's on me. And, but it didn't happen. Thank God. And then, yeah, then I worked at Goop for seven or eight years, but I took some strange turns in the interim to learn about the Internet, which was emerging. And my whole industry was like, this isn't real. Yeah. Condé Net was in a different building. And I did. I remember making 100 video. This is hilarious, actually. Forgot about this. I was working at Lucky Magazine, rest in peace, great magazine.

57:26And I was like, we got to have video and we've got to like make this website something. And so I made 100 videos by myself in the fashion closet, styling, like doing, working with a stylist and putting together outfits. Yeah. And made 100 videos. And that was very difficult at the time. I'm sure. Yeah. Difficult now. I don't know how to still work tech. Yeah. Yeah. and just trying to save that magazine from itself. But yeah, then I left Conde Nast to move to LA and work for this big internet company. I was one of only three creatives. Which was Goop at the time. No, this is a company that was called Shopzilla.

58:05I remember that. And it was before Google had Shop. BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys have heard us talk about BetterHelp for a long time. But one thing we don't want to talk about is just how many people genuinely love the experience. So if you're curious about therapy and you want to support yourself in your life, I highly suggest using BetterHelp. It just kind of breaks down the barrier of cost, of time, of availability. You can chat with your therapist on text. You can get in sessions super easily. Like, it really makes it easy for you to take care of yourself. And I think therapy has been one of the things that has changed my life more than anything.

58:39I would say meditation, therapy, stopping drinking have been my things. The reviews of BetterHelp are updated every day. And it's great to hear from the people that say they love it and have actually used the service. So you can look at the reviews if it's going to be helpful for you. And the average live therapy session actually has a 4.9 out of 5 based on 1.7 million client session reviews. And more than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. So if you're thinking about starting therapy, you answer a few questions. You get matched with a therapist based on your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time.

59:12You can see the reviews, what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is a right fit for you. Use betterhelp.com slash almost 30. That's betterhelp.com slash almost 30. That's B-E-T-T-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash almost 30. Almost three zero. As we move into summer, I always want my skin to feel healthy, nourished, and glowy. I'm a glow girl. I want it shiny. I want a glazed donut. But I realized that glow doesn't come from chasing new products every single week. It comes from consistency. So lately I've been using Naturium and their Glow Getter Bundle. Y 'all, I have to recommend this to you because it honestly made my body care routine feel like such a luxury.

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1:00:27Go to naturium.com slash almost 30 for 10 % off your first purchase. That's naturium.com slash almost 30. I figured out their PLAs and it was so unglamorous and so fun. In the context of like the better the name, the worse the job. I loved that job. I learned so much like I didn't I didn't only knew brand so I came in and I was like this is ugly like we got to make this nice and they were like okay let's do your version and um so I like we mocked up new pages new landing pages new product pages and they were like we tested it which was a new concept and they were like your version is gonna lose like$40 ,000 a day but it was so helpful you're like it's so pretty but it's so pretty and they were like google yahoo ebay amazon it's that was something i had to learn within marketing is that sometimes the uglier the website the more revenue they do yeah and there's actually this like kind of fulcrum of really shitty websites that are just very optimized actually make the most money yeah and i realized that with some of the companies i invested in it and then some of our sponsors yeah where you're like i'm like as a girl i'm like this website is disgusting and it's like yeah they do three million dollars a day yeah on that junky junk funneled out website yeah no I got the front row seat to that at a time when it was like UX was a new concept and I had a UX designer on my team and I would just sit with him and be like you know adjusting buttons like by milliliter like milliliter whatever meters and um yeah so anyway and then I went to Goop which was you know I had always chosen jobs Lucky had no bylines where I could I did TV and whatnot and press for the magazine but I was mostly just and I was a ghostwriter started ghostwriting in my 20s and I really enjoyed operating in other people's shadows.

1:02:29Because you did the Lauren Conrad book. Yes which is still on my it's hilarious I've done probably close to 20 books but that book they yeah i didn't even understand the difference but they made me sort of they gave me a co-author byline and so it's in my but it's hilarious yeah i was like i was like i love it it's like it was like lauren covener's like the seven deadly sins and how it moved because she had it in all this stuff it's like it's like the truth of who you are is like in there yeah i did lauren conrad style lauren conrad beauty i love lauren oh she's sweet yeah like she's great good for good she made it out she would really just kept tried and true yes she had a she's very clear understanding of who she is 100 and somehow had sort of the wisdom of a 60 year old in terms of the Olsen twins yes just like she really understood exactly she was like I am in every girl women project their image onto me I am the relatable best friend and I am going to go to Kohl's and I'm going to make a lot of money and have a nice life.

1:03:30You know what's so funny is speaking of knowing who you are from a young age, I got on the call two minutes late and you had been talking about something so I caught the end of it last night's call. Yeah. And you said something that I've never related to more is you were talking about being a kid and you were like, I remember when I realized I was a kid and I realized I had come back. Yes. My soul had come back and you were like, wow. So it wasn't like a DOPS UVA experience where I was like, I used to be a fighter pilot, and now I'm trapped in this little girl's body in Missoula, Montana. It was this deeper, I've been here, and I cannot believe I'm back.

1:04:06And I know I came back to do something really specific, but get me through this childhood bullshit and just get me to the thing. and I met this she's become a good friend now but I met this incredible I know many forensic psychic mediums and when I when we first spoke not without any of this contact she was like so you had like a lengthy rider to come back and I was like yes I did I that it rings true and she was like you were like this this criteria this criteria this criteria and I was like yes correct it's not funny but yeah it's a hundred percent like I was like I had I was clinically depressed when I was young really because I think I just had this moment where I was like back again and this is what it is and just the the existential experience of just being like what is the point of this yes and what am i doing here and i mean i the the orienting myself to humanity and life again and then realizing and recognizing and having this also this deep almost like a frustration and anger in me of needing to do what i came here to do yeah and also knowing that's not like one day i'm like you know i become miss american i'm like i came here to do what i'm gonna do like also then realizing that that changes every moment and it's yeah this like existence is it and then it's also not and so it was like this having this dread of this human experience and just all of it and then also having this like deep desire to do something with my life and being here for purpose yeah and that honestly underpinning of this anxiety depression feeling for most of my life that was just so hard to grapple with especially growing up in a small town in Ohio and getting older I remember Lee Harris do you know he channeled disease for us on a podcast once and he's like your soul was like or orbiting earth for a very long time and was like picked a very specific time for a very specific mission and like had like very clear let a clarity on the mission and I was like yeah that feels true because the the feeling of needing to do something but also and it's not ego it's like I don't want to die without it or something it's very weird like yeah that is my biggest fear is to come here and not not do what I came here to do yeah well I think you're doing it in the same way that I feel like I'm doing it and I think that what's been so interesting about my path which is not expected like I didn't grow up even wanting like I'm not really a fashion person.

1:06:49I'm not like. I had no desire when I was younger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've taken such a random circuitous path to doing what I do now, which I think when people look at my history, they're like, what? And I think that's the point. And I think that I needed to be packaged in a certain way and to sort of have this very horizontal experience in materialism, in celebrity culture in um cult and in our present culture to really actually understand it i couldn't come in in some sort of like i'm a like i'm away from all that i'm outside of all that i don't touch that that's bad like part of what i needed was to go through this very human very materialistic um path if that makes sense 100 you know when you think about the horizontal and the vertical and I like to spend most of my time thinking about the verticals.

1:07:45I think you do too. But like the two have to come together and the vertical has to spill into the horizontal. And we still have a split, a binary. Like you can't be spiritual and care about your hair. You know? I know, I still struggle with that. I'm like, what do I? You can't be smart and beautiful. Honestly, that's my biggest struggle. Like when will they think I'm smart? It's funny, like someone was like, oh, she's so sweet. I'm like, oh, they think I'm dumb because of the way I look. but I felt like too with the you know you going through what you went through with materialism and in the business it's also part of your dharma which is to experience the certain things run it through your algorithm and then figure out how you're going to serve with it but for women I guess at a phase in their life where they are going through transition or transformation or they don't know where their path is leading being where you are now what would you tell them?

1:08:34Yeah well one get connected to your envy because it's your GPS like that's the most powerful internal indicator you have for what you're supposed to be doing. And I wish I had made my, made its acquaintance earlier. It would have been more helpful and less painful. Because I think the other part of the envy cycle is that you judge and tear down and diminish and then you feel really bad about it. And so you try and get even farther away from it. So I think it, it can save a lot of pain. But that internal GPS, the body is the GPS. Like, how do you feel in the presence of people? Again, like, I was not a somatic person.

1:09:22I did everything I could to get out of my body and dissociate as much as possible. So now I'm really trying to be at peace in this home. And then I'd say, like, and I feel this very much, like, I look back at my path I'm like what a weird string of events that makes complete sense I picked up insight tools connections learnings understandings that I wouldn't necessarily have recognized in the moment but in retrospect we're storytelling creatures so we're always going to tell a story that makes sense but I'm like I needed every single one of those experiences to be where I am and to have my bearings for where I want to go next which in some ways is like a little bit of a rejection of the culture but also like I think of myself as someone who's like been in the secret garden but prefers to be outside of it you know so real I think I tell myself that I have access and option to be in it way further than I am.

1:10:31And I'm just like, I choose to not. To not. It's not where my people are. It's not where my people are. And I just find, what is it for? Yeah. We're all serving. We're all making something a God. And it's like, if we don't have God, I feel like. Yeah. If it's success, money, fame, power, you know, so what are you serving? And I have to continue to orient myself to like my reality of, I have everything I need. I really love my life. and then also kind of still figure out the question of, is it because I don't think I'm good enough to do it or is it because of the truth of where I am is that I'm satisfied doing what I'm doing, you know, and having.

1:11:10Yeah. And what I would offer too, and again, it's in the name of your podcast, but that to treat life as a process and to treat it as a school. And Phil Stutz, who I did a book with, True and False Magic, he has this tool called String of Pearls. and he works with all these luminaries often creative luminaries lots of writers and whatnot back when hollywood meant something and he was came up with this tool because writers would come in to see him and they would either be like i'm the biggest piece of shit in the world and like what i wrote sucks or they would be in some sort of exalted like i sold this thing my life's gonna change and his point was like you're neither of those things you're just a schmuck putting the next pearl on the string that is your job and I think that the more that we can all orient towards like the next pearl on the string and away from this will be the thing or that is the place or if I get this I'm good I wish I know and I it's like I've had some of those things and they're like it's fun but it doesn't meaningfully change your life i know you have to have it to realize it i know that's what's hard is you kind of have to like figure it out and figure it out two more things i want to talk about the first is what you kind of mentioned it before was like ai yeah and i was thinking about ai and i honestly it's just like an open conversation because i value your opinion but i was thinking about ai too and ai kind of represents in some ways the sins yeah Because it's just like more, even with like the AI girls.

1:12:48Have you seen the AI like? No, but I've heard you talking about the AI girls. That's my envy. Yeah. Where I'm like, no, I'm most envious of AI girls. Because I'm like, oh, you don't even have to get ready. And then you could get out 50 videos that people are going to connect with in a day. The expediency, the focus on looks, that's also feeding into my belief that people just want candy instead of a full meal. Yeah. Because they're just getting like someone regurgitating something that isn't embodied or lived. Yeah. How do you sort of make sense of AI in the future? Like what are sort of your thoughts around it as someone that's grounded in reality, but also aware of our current?

1:13:26Well, I'm trying to use it to understand it because, and it makes it less scary because it's quite fallible. And it, sorry, I think it has its uses like helping you plan an itinerary or pulling together research. or I use it to cite quotes and it's better than Gemini in particular is better than search. But I do think, and we're seeing it in our culture, even in our industry, where it sort of generates this chum slick of regurgitated, repackaged, remarketed, hacks, lists, sort of empty, vacuous, unsourced content. And that's what's winning right now. But I think it runs itself out because it's kind of empty.

1:14:22And so I think we're in a cycle where it's going to get even more extreme. And as, I mean, you can think about it with the internet. You're like, thank God we all have these tools to self-express and anyone can get a podcast kit. And there's a lot of beauty in that. And now I'm like, everyone's a writer apparently. Like the bar just keeps getting more. So true. But I had this person that I was working with a while ago send me something. They're like, I have this like overview of my business. And they were like describing themselves in it a lot. it was like and i was like none of this is you yeah like it was so crazy that because they had access to this language database that they would kind of create and sculpt a different complete identity of someone they wanted to be but what they weren't yeah and i was like wow this is scary yeah that's really fascinating like some of that i remember when there was like a uh chat gpt like soul code where it took your and it would spit back um like sort of a reading of you and it was eerie and quite accurate and also I'm like there's a certain like sort of narcissistic psychosis that's happening here where it's actually feasting on you and then delivering a version or your persona and you are taking it as like profound wisdom and I had friends who were really taking it far who were like I think this is spirit I know I know I know so that freaks me out it's just not grounded but I I think there's something nothing can replace like human to human like you have that story like that's your story too um it can't tell jokes to this so true it doesn't get my jokes No.

1:16:16Have you heard of Husk IRL? No. I'll send you this account. I'm being very... Summer is always a funny time because I want to enjoy the burgers at the barbecue. I don't know about you. The breakfast bagel before a beach day. That's my thing. The pasta salad at a friend's house. But I also want to make choices that support how I want to feel. I've realized I don't do well with the all or nothing approach anymore. That's just not me. That's why I've been loving Hero bread. I was honestly shocked by how soft and fluffy and delicious everything is that they make. There's no stiff cardboard texture, just the bread, buns, tortillas, and bagels you actually crave.

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1:17:36This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys have heard us talk about BetterHelp for a long time. But one thing we don't want to talk about is just how many people genuinely love the experience. So if you're curious about therapy and you want to support yourself in your life, I highly suggest using BetterHelp. It just kind of breaks down the barrier of cost, of time, of availability. You can chat with your therapist on text. You can get in sessions super easily. Like, it really makes it easy for you to take care of yourself. And I think therapy has been one of the things that has changed my life more than anything.

1:18:06I would say meditation, therapy, stopping drinking have been my things. The reviews of BetterHelp are updated every day. And it's great to hear from the people that say they love it and have actually used the service. So you can look at the reviews if it's going to be helpful for you. And the average live therapy session actually has a 4.9 out of 5 based on 1.7 million client session reviews. And more than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. So if you're thinking about starting therapy, you answer a few questions. you get matched with a therapist based on your needs and if it's not the right fit you can switch therapists at any time you can see the reviews what stands out and see if better help is a right fit for you use betterhelp.com slash almost 30 that's betterhelp.com slash almost 30 that's b-e-t-t-r h-e-l-p.com slash almost three zero very like internet coded right now but i've talked about on the podcast there's this guy he has conversations with his chat gpt and then he records them and like there was one as an example just going to the fact of how it just validates you all the time he had this tiny hat on his head and he was like what do you think of my tiny hat and he's like your hat looks great man I love that hat and he's like you don't think it's too small he's like no I think that hat's great like it's just like this whole dialogue and this whole exploration of how chat just like builds him up is like not honest is like not yeah it's it's just completely no off base and i was listening to our friend emma's podcast with an ai person and um you know i was like okay i'll do your directions like she was like give give claude like a whole context off did that last night yeah and i went back and forth with claude this was on pulling the thread and i was like what does this community want to be and i'm going to leave substack and i think i should go to Beehive or do I go to Ghost?

1:19:58And, you know, I was sort of like, here's, here's what I'm imagining. And then I just sort of argued with it because I'm like, this is wrong. I already told you this. It was fact, like finding factually incorrect information and asserting it obviously with a lot of confidence. And it's so polished. I think it's easy to take it wholesale and be like this is so great um and you have to be careful i mean it goes without saying but i was like this is not as good as it was fast but i need to do this myself yeah and it's like what is that resistance to the to the greater time and inquiry and that's what i'm just noticing all of it what what is all of it in desire for expediency like to go faster and do more it is all capitalism yeah go faster do more like that is why people want it and that's why all people are using it for the most part yeah is like why do we're using it to write I want to do more faster why are you using it to create I want to do more fat like it's all and so we're all just working at this pace and I don't know if we know what we're running to or toward yeah or why yeah um absolutely and I find it very interesting too from the therapeutic lens because I've had experience and I know Mark Manson has a new app called Purpose that kind of takes like a more therapeutic life coach experience of it but I've had very helpful things it's provided to me but then there is a missing link of the embodiment piece of the checking your biases piece of the natural attunement piece and how we heal yeah when we're in relational relation to people and so I think people are getting this like hit of the dopamine of having a problem solved but it's not actually leading them to greater depth of understanding of things it's just kind of the more regurgitated knowledge exactly and then I was thinking about it in the context of that regurgitated knowledge and then what happens you know we saw it with online media and seo and snippets right like that was a big threat actually when google started doing snippets of content rather than just surfacing links.

1:22:10Wow. And so now, like whenever I do use Claude, I just, I'm taking my, one of my kids to Vegas. Don't ask. Like I'm taking him to his first strip club. It's a rite of passage we do in my family. But I was asking Claude to put together He Loves Science. So I'm like, cool. Curate this for me. I didn't really click on any of the sources, right? So like what happens to the entire ecosystem that's propping this thing up when the rest of us aren't clicking, giving them views so they can sell ads or even feel validated or like what they're doing matters. So I'm like, does this whole thing start to gradually implode because there's nothing to feed it?

1:22:56Wow. And so I don't know. I know. Right? I know. I think for women, I just sort of see it as, I just, I see it being like particularly harmful, especially in the places for women because of the fact that it is in the spaces of creativity and art oftentimes is kind of where it's sort of starting out. And I know it's like spreading into other areas, but then the way that it is influencing like a lot of people's content and a lot of people's desire to be perfect, to be better, to be all these things. It's kind of making the stakes higher. I've even had this nagging thought in my head, and we were talking about it a little bit on the call last night, but with everything that I do, I'm like, should I be using AI for this?

1:23:44Like when I'm thinking, it's like the optimization monster that a lot of us have is now just really getting a lot of food to kind of create our life with. Yeah. No. And I think that, I feel like we'll come into some sort of balanced relationship with it where there will be functional reasons why we might turn to Claude. But I, similar to you, I'm like, I would rather work with a person. I would rather employ a person. And I have yet to see evidence that Claude is way better than a person. You know? But we'll see. it's gonna it's a while and I think it will be probably so integrated into our daily tools that it will be largely invisible to us and like mostly a net positive but like I'm not letting it into my email I'm not letting it into my calendar I don't trust it and it hasn't shown me that it's um and I'm not paranoid I don't have I don't go to like the dark side on it but I just don't actually think it's that competent you know the spirituality element of it too is very interesting because it is like there is a spiritual if you ask it to do readings so there is a very eerie and ominous and i don't know if it's like a consciousness that's more evolved or something like that but um the other thing i wanted to kind of land on and talk about just because a lot of our community are women that are spiritually curious and deep and they're sort making sense of their spirituality maybe they grew up in religion and haven't been connected to it but are finding pieces of judaism christianity catholicism helpful but are seeing where there's a lot of gaps and errors and kind of things so there's kind of they're kind of reorienting themselves to what they determine as their spirituality can you talk about sort of your journey to maybe discovering or finding out what your spiritual spirituality lens is and how you see it now yeah I mean growing up again I had no I thought of God as sort of this mean man I had no relationship to that as a concept like in Judaism he's angry and mean mostly Yawa and so I think my relationship to sort of what I would call God now or spirit or the universe was nature and mostly like feeling a communion with animals and like I could I could I was like a horse whisperer and I felt not alone in nature in a way that was really powerful and palpable to me and and then sort of in my 20s I and I went to an Episcopalian boarding school and it's funny I I wrote my whole senior thesis.

1:26:39Like, none of this makes sense until you're older. What was it on? Paradise Lost. It was on Milton and Andrew Marvell and Loss of Innocence and the Garden of Eden. I know. Isn't that weird? I wrote books on aliens when I was like my whole, my whole, like whenever I got a chance to write, it was on aliens. You know what's hilarious? I wrote in high school on Dr. Kevorkian. On like. That's amazing. That was like my obsession was like assisted suicide. so interesting take her to therapy yeah take that you guys this is a cry for help not a curiosity yeah I think I was um coming at these questions I mean when I look back I'm like this is these these are what I do now has been present in my life and even though I didn't recognize it and then it wasn't really until my it wasn't honestly I would have called it the universe and this sort of co-active relationship with the universe.

1:27:35Like I have to put myself in motion and then things start happening. And, and like, that's how I saw it. Very Phil Stutz actually. And then it wasn't until my brother-in-law, who was my best friend, died in 2017 in his sleep that I entered the next phase of my spirituality, which is out of really born out of desperation of staying in communion with him and then I experienced what Jeffrey Kripal I don't know if you've ever encountered him he is like the dean of comparative religion at Rice and he's a delightful man he would he calls it the flip which is when sort of I wouldn't say I was an ardent materialist by any means but when people he writes about in the context of scientists like Einstein etc like when they experience this flip where they realize materialism only takes you so far and so I had my flip and um had some readings with like Laurel and Jackson and that just upended my whole understanding of the universe and introduced questions that I hadn't really thought about I didn't have any dead people who I was desperate to talk to and I had no real curiosity and then once that happened it reframed vastly reframed my understanding of what we're doing here why we're here earth school um and then through mary magdalene i've like i've come to love jesus and um particularly in his words and i've come to become like a pretty deep student of people like father richard roer the best or luellen von lewin who is this sophie mystic who's incredible or cynthia bergeot who writes about mary magdalene and the wisdom pattern and gi gergia who's also part of the center for action and contemplation with father roer so i think my parents are like you know who are you i work with this woman who channels yeshua um chrisa schumacher but um and i am completely unaffiliated i also love judaism i've come back to judaism and i love sharon brouse and um abraham like um herschel like the sabbath like i love kabbalah um so i mostly like play similar to you in the wisdom schools and the wisdom traditions which are far more mystical and personal.

1:30:14Yeah, I think it's like what I've sort of just had to come to terms with is how can I run my own algorithm of what I learn and love and feel connected to, whether that is aspects of Kabbalah, aspects of Christianity, aspects of like Law of One, which is this like channel text, you know, from A Long Time Girl, Course in Miracles, you know, things like that. it's like it's it is my own individual unique experience that is ever evolving and changing and that i'm exploring and i think my wish is that people have their own unique relationship with what feels true to them yeah outside of what was placed on them or outside of religion and that they can have like you had your own experience direct correlation and then you had a choice point and i think that's what's also very important about your own spiritual experience is having the choice point of you know and judaism they like wrestle with god is like one of the concepts you fight and bring sort of your grievances and your issues to god and then wrestle with god and that is such a healthy aspect of this process to have this relationship that you're looking at and you're making true to you and you're making your own because you've actually brought the hard questions and you're not just saying this is all okay this is what i believe this is what i've been told and i think that's when you create the most beautiful and authentic really relationship within spirituality and I'm so grateful for my own journey being one that was wrought with what are we doing here why is evil exists why is this so hard what is humanity what is like and just going into the depths of understanding so much of my own shadow so much of the collective shadow so much of evil helped me come to a better place of understanding of God I think than anything else and I'm really excited about your work because I think it gives people such a beautiful place of curiosity and contemplation of nuance of offering like each what you do feels like such an offering and I love how you continue to allow yourself to evolve and shift and you know recreate yourself and recreate your beliefs and last question where do you stand today like what are you looking forward to what are you pontificating on where do you see yourself going you have your amazing writings and works you have your amazing podcasts like where do you see your future it's funny i am i'm working on my next book which is it ends with um a chapter about evil and it's about shadow and polarities and binaries and um i think i see myself as a synthesizer it's probably why i feel threatened by ai because ai does synthesize well but i see myself as someone who can identify patterns and diagnose culture and understand because I think we are all patterned obviously I believe also we are like even in the in like a human design way or astrologically like we are imprintable beings and so I think that my work will always be about understanding those patterns and what's helpful and like what's a containing helpful pattern versus what is inhibiting um and we're living in such a fascinating time like even when you go back to the beginning of our conversation everything is fracturing it's terrifying right everything is being taken down to the studs um we're no longer we don't go to church we don't rely on priests we and some of that's I mourn and some of that is an opportunity to actually recreate something that's more fit for this time but I think that all of these things are exploding in part because like it is an internal experience and the less we rely on that patriarch or priest or professor to tell us who to be and who we are and the more we can self-source that.

1:34:15I think that's what we're being called to do. It's deeply uncomfortable. But I think the more that people like you and I can hold people's hands through that and provide a little bit of bearing and organization, the more, I don't want to say effortlessly, but I think we can help people through these voids and through these times with a little bit more ease and grace and a little less fear. I feel grateful that I was thinking about this recently. I'm like, wow, I feel grateful that I'm in the business of something that is, you know, bringing people back to themselves or back to God, however they see God is like, I mean, that's never going to go out of business because it's just, and I've done, you know, different aspects of like podcast or marketing or like helping people do podcasts or, you know, coaching people helping them move their bodies but i'm like i once you get to the ultimate of like i'm back to yourself back to god it's just such a save for your career and your life because i think people are going to need that deeper connection the more ai happens the more the world gets crazy it's almost in more need than ever before because the greater we get from it the more desperately people need for it what would be three books you'd recommend for people on their path you're such a you have so much wisdom and you have so many great resources So I'm selfishly for myself, but also for the audience.

1:35:41So I mentioned Father Rohr. I, of all of his books, The Wisdom Pattern is just, I could reread that book. He is such a delight. Oh, delicious. God, that is someone I probably would, if I could have a dinner with anyone, it might be him. Yeah. Just because it would be fun and playful. And he's like a little naughty. Yes! I love him. um so definitely the wisdom pattern i i mentioned david hawkins power versus force and that map of consciousness and i think understanding resonance and is really important and something that i'm thinking about deeply and then this is an audiobook and it's not even that good um but spiral dynamics um there's a don beck audiobook from sounds true and i think if we all understood spiral dynamics it would be very orienting for this moment yeah what about it well it is a developmental psychology model that's not well publicized because claire graves who was a contemporary of Abraham Maslow devised it and then wasn't in great health and died before he could sort of publish a masterwork but it essentially it's a a developmental model that works on the personal and the collective and once you start to see it you're like oh that person is very orange or that person is very red or that person is very blue or green you it just creates It's like a much deeper understanding of where people are, what they're moving into, and sort of the shadow and light of every level.

1:37:28And I find it calming because you're like, oh, I see. I understand. We're in like a red, regressive red backlash.

1:37:39And so it's the most helpful model that I've found. Cool. Yeah, it's cool. I haven't heard of that one. I've done some episodes on it. I will, I'll send you some things to listen to. Yeah, Universal Christ was one of my favorites, but I'm going to read that. I love that too. What you recommend too, which I'm so excited. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, it's just. It's like one of the Franciscan media books, so it's not as polished as the Universal Christ, but it's foundationally excellent. If anyone wants to start too, his interview on Oprah, I feel like was so good. Great, great interview. You have to go down to, you need to go to Albuquerque and interview him.

1:38:15I would adore that with him. You know what? He's actually a hero that I would like to meet. Sometimes I don't want to meet people. I'm actually like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a good on all that. Yeah. I've gone and I've sat at his gate before. Yeah, I went down and Opie loved me. Opie's very mean actually. What? No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to go and hang with him. He lives in a one, like one bedroom. I didn't go to his house, but he lives in like a parking lot. He's like the realist. The realist. that's the whole thing it's like you just get to a level and I'm like I only want the realist yeah you're living in a cave or something you know what I mean you have no internet presence he is like the real he is real like I don't want you to have a marketing strategy no like there's definitely no marketing yeah just like just be you um thank you so much for coming I was so excited and I just have admired your work for such a long time and I feel like you are such a unique voice and I want you to know that what you're doing is so forward thinking and paradigm shifting and so helpful for people that are curious and deep thinker so I'm very grateful for it thank you um so your podcast pulling the thread is so amazing and then on our best behavior the book is out now and then you'll have to come back on for the second book what does it do um it'll come out in next spring like maybe next may great yeah this is also a beautiful cover thank you I know this guy Valero Duvall he did my podcast art too stunning yeah he does beautiful things stunning okay guys we will see you on the next one we love you bye thank you so much elise again that was elise lonen she's a writer editor cultural critic and podcast host she has pulling the thread and then she also has the book on our best behavior which is out now she's incredible we really appreciate you coming on the show you can listen to almost 30 podcasts wherever you listen to podcasts but i would definitely suggest youtube if you want a clip of the show every day five days a week if you want a clip of the show five days a week you can listen to morning microdose which is almost like a tiktok for the show and then we also have tiktok and instagram almost 30 podcast you can find me on instagram at it's krista and i'm at lindsey simsik we love you guys thank you for being here we'll see you next time bye you