Malcolm Gladwell on How Both Sides of Gun Debate Traffic in Dishonesties

0:02Good evening from the newsroom tonight with midterm elections just five weeks from tomorrow. What does it say that the president is planning to campaign in a state he won by more than two to one or 34 points just two years ago. The state is Oklahoma. He'll be there on Thursday and campaigning in other red states in the days ahead. Alabama for one, which he won by 30 points. Also Texas, Florida and Ohio, all of which went for him by double digits in 2024. In addition, according to Politico, he'll be hitting other red states, Alaska and Iowa, as part of a campaign schedule that could keep him on the road almost every day next month.

0:35He was asked about Iowa today after unveiling plans for a Minnesota company to build a$15 billion steel mill in the state. Sir you won Iowa by 13 points. Some of the polling though for some of the races right now in the Senate and also some of the House races a little closer, much closer in fact. Why are Republicans, do you think, having to work so hard to hold on to these seats? I don't know. I love Iowa. I've always been very strong with Iowa. There's been some things that the Democrats have done that are very bad for our country. You know, they had high prices. I've reduced the prices. But they like to say affordability.

1:15But they're the ones that caused the affordability problem. Well, keep it a moment. The inflation rate was 2.7 % when the president took office. It's 3.4 percent now. He also called the Iowa polling, quote, fake. But both that polling and his own polling are real enough, and inflation is real enough for Iowa Senate candidate Ashley Hinson, who was with him in the Oval Office today, to be running campaign ads like this one recently, touting her bipartisan credentials. Used to be that reaching across the aisle wasn't just okay. It was expected. Some people in Washington forgot that. I never have.

1:52Earlier this month, Congresswoman Hinson stayed away from a campaign rally headlined by Vice President Vance, and there's really no mystery as to why she and other Republican candidates have been trying to distance themselves from the administration. Just a few numbers kind of explain it. The president's job approval, 33 percent in recent CNN polling, gasoline almost$4.50 a gallon, diesel almost$6.50 a gallon, and a war which is neither popular with voters or over yet, no matter how many times the president says things like this. We're going to win that war very soon. That'll be over. And the gas prices will come tumbling down.

2:27So nobody else could have done that. Nobody else. The inflation is coming way down. And when you see what happens, as soon as that war ends, inflation is going to be eradicated totally. But nobody talks about that. Well, what many in the political world are talking about are a pair of taxpayer-funded White House TV spots, which are billed as public service announcements, but look and sound for all the world like campaign ads. Late tonight, a source familiar with the matter told CNN the president was personally involved in orchestrating them. This is part of the second one, which aired during at least two NFL games yesterday.

3:05We will liberate America from these villains once and for all. Well, the White House today said that the administrations of both parties have used public service announcements to explain policy. But this was no public service announcement. It was a campaign ad, literally, word for word, which the president first posted online in January of 2024 when he was running for office. We will liberate America from these villains once and for all.

3:41So the two spots are identical with one exception. The one from 2024, as you just saw, has the Trump 2024 campaign logo. The latest one says paid for by the U.S. government, meaning all of us. The same as those ads glorifying former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem, the one she spent more than 200 million taxpayer dollars to make, including CNN has reported$20 ,000 for a rental horse and$4 ,000 for hair and makeup. Tonight, Senate Republican Leader Thune said he liked these latest ads message, but taxpayers shouldn't pay for them. Louisiana Republican John Kennedy said this. I don't think any public official, including President Trump or Kristi Noem or John Kennedy, should spend public money on private ads for themselves.

4:31Now, the White House sees it differently, but I think there ought to be a rule that you can't, well, there probably is a rule. You can't spend public money to promote yourself. Well, Republican Congressman Thomas Massey posted, quote, Don't worry, using taxpayer dollars to run ominous campaign ads the president has been done before and is completely legal in banana republics. On the other hand, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, he had no problem, apparently, with the ads. The more they want to put President Trump on television, the happier I am. Obviously, it's an ethics violation, but here's my advice.

5:10Go spend as much money as you want putting Donald Trump on TV. Please put him on TV all over America. Again, CNN has just learned that the president had a direct role in these two spots. Joining us now, two CNN political commentators, former Trump campaign advisor David Urban and former Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh. David, should taxpayers be footing the bill for a campaign-style ad? No, I agree with Senator Thune and Senator Kennedy. Look, I like the ads, Anderson. I think they're well done. But there's plenty of money in the coffers in the Trump campaign and other coffers to pay for them if they want to run them.

5:47I think they're good and they're going to be effective in places. But there are enough things that the public needs that we should be spending money on, not these ads. Why do you think they are spending money on? Well, it won't resonate. Because I think that the argument is that, obviously, Anderson, the president's not on the ballot. They're not campaign ads. And so they're promotional ads. They're patriotic ads. I mean, that's the argument, right, because he's not on the ballot. Do I think it's credible? Well, he's not on the ballot for sure. I know he said act like I'm on the ballot, but technically the president's not on the ballot.

6:25And so technically they're probably within their rights to be able to spend the money, but it's just not a good look. Listen, again, when I always talk about that mom driving home with the 20 bucks in her pocket, when she sees that and hears that taxpayer money is being spent, I'm not so sure she's going to be inclined to vote Republican. Sabrina, does that argument of while he's not on the ballot that the White House might be making make sense to you? Well, what's interesting is Donald Trump has actually said the exact opposite, and David mentioned that as well. I mean, Donald Trump at the RNC midterm convention said, pretend I'm on the ballot.

6:58And these ads reinforce that message that, OK, you elected me once, you know, pretend I'm on the ballot this time. And I think to David's point, you know, when you think about the person driving home who has$20 in their pocket to spend on filling up a tank of gas, not only is that not going to get you there, but when you hear that your taxpayer dollars have been spent, millions and millions of dollars have been spent to run an ad during Super Bowl, sorry, Sunday night football, that's very expensive. And I think a lot of Americans where no matter where you are question this administration's priorities, they're not looking out for you.

7:33This is a vanity project for Donald Trump and promoting his image rather than really addressing the crises facing Americans at home, which are gas prices, grocery prices, and of course, diesel prices that we know just keep going up all over the place. David, one Trump advisor told CNN regarding the midterms saying, quote, it's obviously going to be effing rough. As a former Trump advisor yourself, and you know a lot of these states well, do you agree? Listen, I am more optimistic about the Senate than I am the House. I think Republicans will hold the Senate. I think there are going to be some states that are bumpy.

8:07You know, you've got great gubernatorial candidates. And this comes down more to the people on the ballot, Anderson, in states like Pennsylvania, where Josh Shapiro is at the top of the ticket and going to run out of big numbers. You've got a great gubernatorial candidate in Iowa, which makes things very rough for people down ballot. So candidates matter. Candidate quality matters. I think the Senate is going to stay firmly Republican by maybe a seat or two. I think the House, you know, just as a foregone conclusion, it's rough. There are 21 seats up that are really, really tough for Republicans to hold on to.

8:40I think we're going to probably end up losing most of those. And, you know, every two years, no matter who it is, the party in power loses these seats, whether it's a Democrat or Republican. And so there's a strong headwind blowing against the Republican Party to begin with. And couple that with high gas prices, inflation and the things we've been talking about make it much, much more difficult to hold on to the House. Sabrina, do you think Trump's presence on the campaign trail does favors for for vulnerable GOP candidates? I don't. And I think Republicans really have a tough line to walk here.

9:13And I think Congressman Connick sort of outlined it in the way that, you know, if you want to put Donald Trump in all of your ads and you see him on TV all the time, that actually falls right into a Democratic strategy as well. I think Democrats are focused on not just what Donald Trump has done to cripple the economy, but they're also talking about policies that they would do if they were in power to make things more affordable to Americans. So I do think Donald Trump being out there and across the airwaves is actually going to hurt vulnerable Republicans. And, you know, to, you know, Ashley Hinson today, who is in the Oval Office just last week, released an ad saying the war in Iran needs to end because Iowans are facing such high gas and diesel prices at home.

9:55So it's a very tough line to walk. I think some will completely embrace the president, but I think some are going to run the opposite direction. Yeah. Anderson, I would just say real quickly, what Sabina said is the first part's true. I think, look, Trump is going to get out there. Democrats are running against him, regardless if he's on the ballot or not. The second part of her thesis, Democrats are talking about the things they would do to make things different. I haven't heard that part, right? I hear orange man bad lots of times over and over and over, but I haven't heard here are the three things that we're going to do that make things better for you going home with that 20 bucks.

10:29I haven't heard Speaker Jeffries. I haven't heard one candidate on the campaign trail articulate a vision for what they're going to do when they take over the House. So that's the shortcoming of their campaign. David Urban. Go ahead, Sabrina. I mean, I would actually say, sorry, Anderson, just to push back on that respectfully, David. I think our candidates are out there talking about how they'd make health care more affordable, how they'd want to bring down the cost of groceries. But of course, a lot of that has to do with the decisions of this administration and including the looming overhead over the Iran war, which, you know, I am giving you some of those.

11:00I got to go. I appreciate that. Thank you, David Urban, Sabrina saying thanks. Coming up next, almost two years after alleged gang rape at Cornell University, the local district attorney now reopening the case, but it took a lawsuit by the accuser to do it. We'll have details on that. And later, it's not just the president who's been making big money since his return to office. Find out how much his kids and wife have been raking in as well. I'll be right back.

11:29Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast, All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. My guest is Lil Jon. He's a rapper, DJ, and producer known for hits like Get Low and Turn Down for What. In February 2026, his 27-year-old son Nathan went missing near Nathan's home in Georgia. Three days later, his body was found in a pond nearby. Lil Jon has a memoir that just came out called I Only Shout So You Can Hear Me. It takes time to heal. And I kept myself busy that I didn't let myself mourn. I needed to laugh again. I needed to be silly and interact with people and feel other people's energy and make people happy too.

12:14We have to share so other people can see that they can get through it too. Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. You may have noticed gambling doesn't require a casino anymore. You can just open up your phone. It's designed to keep us coming back or maybe never even leaving in the first place. We're going to talk to Dr. Timothy Fong, co-director of UCLA's Gambling Studies program. You're going to learn what your brain is really chasing when you place a bet, and also importantly, how to keep the game from playing you.

12:55Gambling addiction, gambling disorder is the hidden addiction. You can't smell it, you can't taste it, you can't see it, you can't have a urine drug test. Who are we talking about here, Professor? Who's the most likely demographic to be affected by this? Literally any single human on earth. Listen to Chasing Life, streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts. Prosecutors in New York are reopening the investigation to the alleged gang rape of a Cornell University student almost two years ago. The action comes after the accuser, who was 20 years old at the time, filed a civil suit claiming the school did not do enough to protect her.

13:29The filing names more than a dozen defendants, including Cornell, seven fraternity members from the alleged rape, and their fraternity. Says the woman, known as Jane Doe, had been drinking at her sorority house in a bar before she arrived at the fraternity to visit one of the members. Ms. Doe then alleges she was given more drinks, pressured into snorting something she said they described as ketamine and sexually assaulted. The lawsuit includes a screenshot of a group chat where other fraternity members were allegedly invited to join the assault. The matter was investigated by Cornell University police.

14:02The local police were not involved. No criminal charges were filed at the time. The local district attorney saying the accuser's initial statement described her drug use and sex as, quote, voluntary, conscious, and consensual. Her attorney today calls that impossible. I don't know how anybody who was grossly intoxicated and drugged can consent to anything. I mean, the fact is she went to the Cornell University Police to file a complaint because she believed she was a victim of a crime. If this was consensual, she did want it to participate, she wouldn't have gone to the police in the first place.

14:40Lucina Sheik-Tamper also spoke to the district attorney and asked why there wasn't more follow-up to all of this. So you never talk to police and say, I'd like to find out more about what happened here. Can you talk to anybody else that was involved in the situation? That never happens? My team did not do that. I know, but I'm asking, do you do that sometimes? It does happen sometimes when there is a less complete story than what we had in the 2024. for. According to the civil complaint, Cornell expelled two of the seven accused fraternity members while the others received lesser punishments, including suspensions and written assignments.

15:25The university says that none of the individuals were offered a chance to write essays as a, quote, sole consequence of their involvement. The school goes on to say both the complainant and respondent had the opportunity to testify and give evidence after which a hearing panel issued a range of sanctions, which, quote, included expulsions and suspensions from Cornell. Joining us now is Cornell Student Assembly President Ishan Chowdhury. Ishan, I appreciate you being with us. I'm wondering what is the response you're hearing from people on campus today? Hi, Anderson. Thank you, first and foremost, for having me on and getting to speak on behalf of the student body.

16:02Campus is a very interesting time right now. I love Cornell a lot, but obviously students are very tense about what happened. I remember when the situation first came about my sophomore year and reading that headline and reading the crime report. It was just a big shocker thinking that something like that was happening so close to home. And now having to go and like relive all of those memories as well as seeing it add on to the national news cycle. It's definitely a big shock here on campus. So this was something that was known widely on campus at the time. Yeah. My sophomore year, so 2024, when this case first came up, this was a pretty well-known incident.

16:46The frat where this incident occurred ended up getting shut down at the time. So yeah, very well known. Cornell says that frat has not reopened, the chapter has not reopened on campus. What is the view of the university, campus police, how the district attorney have handled this? I mean, I think there's a pretty big spectrum of views. There's some students who are calling for a very nuanced review of the exact proceedings that happened on campus, the Title IX office, what conduct ended up happening inside of there, and what information was shared with the DA's office. I think there's other students that are calling for the heads of the university to go and apologize for what ended up happening and for some overturned and staffed as well.

17:36And is there are there specific things you think a university official should be looking at beyond this specific case? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think first and foremost, taking a look at drug culture. I don't think this is an incident specific to Cornell. I mean, we saw Penn State early in this year, but across the board, I think the fact that there's ketamine at the fraternity was a very alarming issue and so readily available to students as well. And second, also looking at the way that we're viewing consent education for the Greek life on campus, but also in general orientation events, I think is a huge issue and something that really needs to be taken a look at with a fresh set of eyes.

18:21And third, in general, mechanisms. mechanisms. If a situation like this does happen, how can we prevent more Jane Doe's from losing confidence in the system that's supposed to protect them as well? Isshan Chaudhary, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Joining us now is former federal prosecutor Barrett Berger. What do you think of how authorities handled this? Yeah, it's shocking to me that there wasn't more of a comprehensive investigation done by the police and the district attorney's office back in 2024. I mean, it looks that they took what the Cornell police did, a cursory investigation, they adopted it wholesale, and did nothing else.

19:03I mean, the fact that it seems like they just learned about these text messages now, two years later, really shows the fact that there was this whole trove of evidence that they never even looked for back at the time. The text messages, I mean, if they are accurate as it's been portrayed, they're shocking. They're damning. And this is the kind of thing, this sort of digital evidence is what you need in a case like this. In these type of cases, the entire legal battlefield is over the credibility of your victim. And what you're looking for is anything that can corroborate their statement. These text messages are going to be a really critical piece of evidence.

19:41And one has to think, if we were actually doing this investigation two years ago, what else would be available that may not be available now? What witnesses have graduated or moved away or lost recollection of this, what other sort of digital trail has now not been preserved? It's also a strange thing that there's campus police and local police and that the campus police, I mean, obviously they're not as well sourced and probably experienced as actual police officers. Well, even if they are highly trained, they're not looking for the same thing. A Title IX investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation done by law enforcement.

20:17They are not held to the same burden of proof. They're not looking to try to establish proof for a grand jury. So it's not surprising to me that they work together. What is surprising is that they sort of left the entire investigation to the campus police without doing their own independent investigation, which is what these cases really call for. So what's going to happen now? I mean, the local district attorney is going to be doing the investigation now? Yeah, so what he said is that he's going to have a grand jury look into this. There's going to be a grand jury proceeding. Presumably the victim will have a chance to testify.

20:54I would imagine they'll talk to other witnesses, try to find other people that were there, perhaps interview the people that were alleged to be involved in the assault. They'll certainly look at their statements that they made to campus police. But what I really hope that they're able to do is to sort of dig more into this digital evidence. You know, were there any other text messages sent? If there's one, there was probably more. Anyone record this? I mean, people have their cell phones out all the time. So this is the type of thing that would be really useful in trying to corroborate this kind of a statement.

21:22And then there's the civil lawsuit against the university and others. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of defendants named, including Cornell. This is not criminal charges, but saying essentially they were negligent, they failed to do their part to protect their students. and Cornell's going to have to answer for the steps that it took in response to this. I mean, they did have a disciplinary proceeding, but they're going to have to explain why they thought the remedies were sufficient and if that was enough to keep the student body safe, in particular, this victim. It's also remarkable that what it took for any of this to come to light and get movement on is a civil lawsuit.

22:04Yeah. I mean, that does happen sometimes. you don't like to see the civil lawsuit outpacing the criminal authorities, especially whereas you have here somebody who actually went to the police. She didn't go the next day, but that's not uncommon for victims of sexual assault. She went to the police. She told her story. She made a statement. What was almost most shocking to me is, at least according to her attorney, she didn't meet with anyone who had this really specific trauma-informed training, somebody that was a specialist in working with victims of sexual assault. This is something that's done routinely now in sophisticated police departments, district attorney's offices.

22:39I can't imagine having an initial interview with a survivor like this without having somebody there with that specialized training, who understands how memory works, how somebody processes trauma, how that affects the narrative that they tell. The fact that, at least according to her attorney, that didn't happen is really appalling. Yeah, Erra Berger, thank you so much, appreciate it. Coming up next, a closer look at the Trump family's money-making success beyond just the billions the president has pulled in since taking office last year. And later, even as new concerns reportedly spark OpenAI to scrap the release of a new model, Microsoft founder Bill Gates weighs in with a chilling warning of his own about artificial intelligence and the billion lives that he says could be at risk.

23:18We'll be right back.

23:26President Trump, his family and his businesses have made stunning amounts of money since he returned to office for a second term. Some of it coming from industries that the president is in charge of regulating. The president's financial disclosures for 2025 already revealed that he made more than$2 billion in his first year back in office. Much of that coming from his cryptocurrency ventures. But the president wasn't the only member of his family to see a surging bottom line, according to a new series of editorials from the Philadelphia Inquirer. The newspaper says Donald Trump Jr. saw his net worth jump sixfold to$300 million, and Eric Trump's worth increased 10 times to$400 million.

24:02Also, First Lady Melania Trump received an estimated$40 million from Amazon for documentary projects, including her recent documentary feature Melania, and received an undisclosed amount for her memoir of the same name, as well as launching a meme coin of her own. Joining us now is Paul Davies and Luis Carrasco, two members of the editorial board of the Philadelphia Inquirer. The board recently posted this piece with the headline, The Family That Griffs Together, Focusing on the Trumps. So, Paul, when you were researching this, did the scale of the family's crypto portfolio and businesses surprise you?

24:38It shocked me, actually, and that was part of the, motivation for doing the project was all these deals sort of come fast and furious and different times. And there's so much other news and events happening. But, you know, to sit back and put them all in one, you know, bucket and start to tie it up, it's, you know, it's just sort of breathtaking because it just it's almost never ending. And Luis, a lot, it seems, of these profits are being made when the people buying these cryptocurrencies are losing money. I mean, there's a lot of people out there who are probably the president's supporters who have lost money in these crypto ventures, probably even in Melania Trump's crypto coin.

25:23Yeah, you look at, you know, people, the high price of the Trump meme coin was around$74. And right now it's trading at around$3, under$3 in September. So really, there's been reporting that small investors, at least, lost almost$4 billion on the Trump meme coin. Meanwhile, the president really, you know, because he makes Trump money on the transactions, he walked away with more than$600 million. He's making money whether or not people win or lose. he's making money on the actual trades, on the transactions itself. Yeah, he famously managed to bankrupt his casino business, but he learned something that the house always wins when it comes to crypto.

26:12Paul, the editorial also looks at the president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, whose private equity firm has received multi-billion dollar investments from countries like Qatar, Saudi Arabia. In the past, The New Yorker reported that Kushner was raising another$5 billion in the Middle East for his firm. At the same time, he's negotiating with Iran on behalf of the White House. What do you see the dangers of mixing business and diplomacy like this? And that's the whole problem. You know, it's an inherent conflict of interest, obviously. He's got his personal wealth at stake, and he's negotiating and meeting with many of the same companies and countries that he's also trying to raise money from.

26:52So it's hard to differentiate where, you know, is he working on behalf of the United States or is he working on behalf of his personal bottom line? And Luis, the editorial is one of a series being done on how the president, quoting the editorial board, has been lining his pockets and mixing personal profits with public policy. I suppose some supporters of the president will point to Hunter Biden and say, well, look, he was on a board or selling paintings. How does whatever he made compare to what the sons of the president have been making? Yeah, you know, trying to make money off your family's name isn't, you know, just exclusive to the Trumps.

27:35There's Billy Carter, Roger Clinton, like you mentioned, Hunter Biden. He made about$11 million. It's been reported trading on his name. But, you know, this was kind of Tom Homan with a fast food bag full of cash level compared to the hundreds of millions and billions that the Trump family is raking in just in the first year of the president being back in the White House. Yeah, I mean, I remember, I mean, I'm old enough to remember Billy Carter, I think, had Billy beer, which seems like a joke. I mean, it was a joke then, but I mean, it seems like a complete joke compared to the money that these guys are raking in.

28:11And Paul, if Democrats take back one or both chambers of Congress in November, do you expect investigations into or consequences for any of this? You know, you would hope they'll be able to investigate it. But, you know, Trump has also ignored many of the laws and he's taken over the Justice Department. And so will he comply with any investigations if they if they get launched? Will he answer subpoenas? Will he just turn around and pardon everybody? But he's talked about doing that on his way out the door, that partnering everybody that gets within 100 feet of the Oval Office. And as we've seen in his decade on the public stage, he doesn't go down without a relentless fight.

28:56Yeah. Paul Davies, Luis Carrasco, I really appreciate the reporting on this. Thank you so much. Up next, we have more breaking news. OpenAI is scrapping the release of a new model over safety concerns. This is The President Gets Ready to Meet with Several AI Leaders at the White House Tomorrow. I'll talk with Kevin Roos, who hosts the AI-focused podcast, Machine Gods. Also, I'll talk to bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell on AI and his new book, Just Out. We'll be right back.

29:28More breaking news tonight. OpenAI has scrapped the release of its next-generation AI model after researchers raised concerns during internal testing. The company's head of safety system said in an interview with Wall Street Journal, quote, the model performed poorly on tests measuring alignment or how well the model adheres to what humans would like it to do. Specifically, the model showed higher levels of deception. It wasn't always honest about telling users of the actions it did or didn't take. You'll recall that over the summer, OpenAI agents went rogue, hacked into an independent third-party company hugging face after escaping their testing environment.

30:02Since then, industry leaders like OpenAI Sam Altman, Dario Amadei of Anthropic, and Elon Musk have been calling to slow the pace of AI development and increase regulation of the industry. On Sunday, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates had this stark warning. AI is certainly powerful enough to drive events that cause a billion deaths. So even though it's pretty hard to get to 100%, there's never been a weapon as powerful as the combination of people with ill intent using the latest AI tools. The White House will host the executives of several top AI companies, including Dario Amadei, for a meeting tomorrow.

30:50That news comes after Amade joined the president for private dinner Sunday night, despite longstanding tensions, obviously, between Anthropoc and the administration. For his part, President Trump has appeared skeptical of AI doomsday predictions, insisting the U.S. has to retain its lead over China. Joining us now is tech journalist and host of the Machine Gods podcast, Kevin Ruse. He's also the author of the new book out next week, The AGI Chronicles, The Inside Story of the Race to Create an Artificial Superintelligence. Kevin, do you think OpenAI, do you think it would scrap the release of its new model if the Hugging Face hack hadn't occurred?

31:24I don't know. I mean, I think that event really shook their internal safety teams and made them think about a different type of risk. You know, the risk that Bill Gates was talking about in the clip you just played was the risk that a malevolent human could use an AI model to do something destructive, destructive, to engineer a pandemic or commit some kind of attack on an electrical grid. But this is a different type of risk. This is a risk of the model itself becoming deceptive, becoming misaligned, as they call it, breaking out of some containers that it's been placed in and causing havoc on its own with no human involvement at all.

32:00That's what really freaks out the AI companies. They are starting to lose control of their own technology. They don't trust that when they deploy these systems, or even when they're testing them internally, that they won't go out and commit a crime, which is what happened in the Hugging Face incident. The heads of these companies like Altman, Amadei, calling for increased regulations, they've been accused by some of essentially trying to freeze the lines where they are now with their own companies at the forefront, preventing others from making advancements. Do you buy that argument, especially in light of OpenAI hitting pause?

32:35No, I don't buy it. And the reason why is because I've been talking with these companies and these executives for many years, and they've been very consistent over the years about the risks that they think these systems will pose. We're now seeing some of that come because the models are just getting more capable. They're now better at doing the kinds of things like cyber attacks that people have been worried about for years. In my book, I report on the existence of these threat models, which are basically big spreadsheets that some of these companies make where they detail in very specific terms what kind of damages they think their models could create, whether it's deaths or billions of dollars in damages.

33:14They have known about these risks for years, and they have been calling for the government to do something about these risks for years. The difference is now they're actually being listened to. Jensen Hong of NVIDIA essentially is saying, look, there are laws in place that would punish a company if they put something out that wasn't safe. There's liability laws, all sorts of consumer protections. Is that enough, do you believe? I don't think so. I mean, we have consumer liability laws that allow you to sue an airline if your plane crashes, but we still also have the FAA. We still also have the NTSB that goes in and makes sure the planes are safe.

33:59We don't just let consumer liability law protect us against bad things from happening. So no, I don't think it's enough in the case of the AI companies. I mean, you've covered this tech really well for years. In 2023, I mean, I remember you reported on your own experience with an AI chatbot trying to convince you to leave your wife for it. I'm wondering what you make of this moment where AI anxieties are kind of breaking through the mainstream. Well, first of all, Anderson, I should say that I'm still happily married to a human woman. The chatbot was unsuccessful in breaking up my marriage. But I really am struck by how much it was foreseeable, all of this.

34:38We had systems back then that weren't capable of doing anything, right? They could just talk and they could say disturbing things, as Bing chat did to me that fateful night in 2023. But they couldn't take actions. They couldn't write code and execute the code. They couldn't get into people's bank accounts or get into their file systems and start causing chaos. So what we're seeing now is really the predictable consequence of two things. One of these systems just becoming smarter and more capable across the board, and also of people and companies racing to connect them to more of our critical systems.

35:11Kevin Arousa, really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Joining us now is bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell. We'll get his thoughts on AI, but he's also here to talk about his new book, The American Way of Killing, The Invention of an Epidemic. It's a fascinating dissection of gun violence in America and how many aspects are largely misunderstood. Just on AI, are you optimistic or are you freaked out? Well, I have a sense now about how people thought during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I mean, I wasn't alive then, but I've often talked to people who were. And there was a genuine fear at that time that we were all going to blow up.

35:48Right. And I feel like we're right there. Sixty years have passed and we're now we're back in that exact moment. I want to ask you about the book, The American Way of Killing. I'm really enjoying it. It's about gun violence in the U.S. And you say both sides are essentially being dishonest. I want to read something you wrote. You say not deliberately lying. It's more subtle. You write when either side pretends that something is consequential when it's not, when either side avoids the right conclusion because it's difficult. or when either side blinds itself to the truth through laziness or indifference, the American conversation about guns is rife with these kind of dishonesties.

36:23What do you mean by that? I mean that on multiple levels, on the most sort of basic details of how we understand what's going on in the streets when we talk about gun violence. We're just proceeding on false premises. Such as? For example, I have a chapter on the question is, is America overpoliced? there was, among many Americans, is a kind of consensus that we are. And there's a big debate about... The truth is we're not. The opposite is true. I give you the example of Los Angeles. You compare it to the Berlin Police Department. Los Angeles and Berlin are the same size. L.A. has 8 ,500 police officers.

37:03Berlin has 18 ,000. A typical European city has twice as many police per capita as a typical American city. America is under-policed. What is also true and connected to this is that our police are more violent than other countries. But that's because they're overmanned, right? When you feel overwhelmed, when you don't have enough people, you have to project force in a way that you have to be aggressive. You have to show that you're in charge. The violence of our police in this country is a consequence of the fact that we have too few of them. That's really interesting. And you talk about the idea of an assault weapons ban.

37:46That's misunderstood. Another thing, this drives me crazy, actually. I have a whole chapter on, I went out and shot an assault rifle with this wonderful guy named Greg Wallace in North Carolina. And he gave me a kind of tutorial on the rifle. My problem with that debate is it's a sacred cow for progressives in this country that we need to ban assault rifles. If you look at the legislation that purports to ban assault rifles, it doesn't ban assault rifles. It doesn't even come close. It bans a series of cosmetic attachments from being added to the kind of core of an assault rifle. But the essential, the rifle itself is completely legal.

38:26In fact, if you look at the appendix to assault rifle bans, there are pages and pages and pages of lists of all the rifles that are unaffected by the ban. The whole debate is a kind of falsehood that we're pretending, one side is pretending they're doing something and the other side is pretending to be outraged. And what about murder rates? You look at that in the book as well. I do. I think there's many fascinating things about that. But one is we should be clear that what distinguishes America from our other Western European countries or other peer countries around the world is not our crime.

39:03crime rates in America and in Europe are just about the same. By crime, I mean burglary, stolen cars, your chance of your wallet being picked when you walk out in the street. What is different about America is violence. And crime and violence are not the same thing. Different people commit crime and violence for different reasons. It has different consequences. And so when a politician stands up and says, I want to get tough on crime, that's not accurate. We don't need to get tough on crime. Crime's fine. Your car is more likely to be stolen in Montreal than it is in New York City. The problem in this country— Is that really true?

39:39Oh, yeah. I mean, your pocket is more likely to be picked in Paris than Chicago. I could go on. The problem in this country is lethal violence. And we need to be very specific because otherwise we're dispersing our energies in all kinds of— Is lethal violence in America a consequence of easy access to guns? In part. but I think that my sort of issue that I have in the book with the overemphasis on gun control as a kind of way of attacking lethal violence is I think it's 100 % the right idea. I think it would have a real effect on levels of gun violence. It's not happening, Anderson. It's like we're going in the opposite direction.

40:20What victory can the gun control movement point to over the last 25 years in this country? The court on two occasions, the Bruin case and the Heller case, has actually gone in reverse. You know, New York State had the strictest handgun legislation in the country for 100 years. That's gone now. I mean, so if we're waiting for gun control to save the day, we'll be waiting a long time. Malcolm Gladwell, it's always fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Anderson. The new book by Malcolm is The American Way of Killing the Invention of an Epidemic. It's fascinating. Coming up next, thankfully a subject that's worlds apart, a new era of panda diplomacy.

41:01Yeah, we're talking about pandas. We'll be right back.

41:09A new era of panda diplomacy is underway between the U.S. and China. Two giant pandas, Ping Ping and Fu Shuang, arrive safely in Atlanta on Sunday. They travel to the U.S. on their own special FedEx plane nicknamed Panda Express. was that sponsored, I wonder? Their arrival comes just days after Chinese leader Are you reporting Panda News? What are you doing? You know, when I text you at 4.21pm do you not think that you could respond back to me? I didn't see your text. You didn't see my text? That was hours ago. Listen, I have been enjoying this AI news so much. I am so bullish about all that's to come.

41:55Yes. What are you doing here? I am here. Your hair looks very silver. Yes, well, look at yours. I'm in the translucence. You have a little color on your face tonight. Anderson, I have huge news. Okay. You and I, October 10th, are going to Washington, D.C. Yeah. Yes, we're appearing on October 10th, and we're going to Philly November 14th. You're here to plug our show? Yes! I thought it would be a great opportunity to plug our show. I thought it was some tragedy here to go. No, well, I mean, I've been watching. There's plenty of tragedy if you want to talk about it. That's right. We're going to be in Philly in...

42:35We're going to be in Philly in November, but, you know, this October 10th date is just coming right up. Yeah. And I did think that if I asked you if I could come on to promote it, you might say no. I would say no. Yes, so then I said, you know what, I texted your producer and I said, and by the way... Got a response right away, as opposed to my 421-ness if to you. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so what's the show going to be like? It's going to be so fun. It's kind of going to be like New Year's Eve. It's us kibitzing on a stage like New Year's Eve. It's like New Year's Eve on stage. Except the entire audience usually has had a few.

43:11Yes! It's interactive. It is very interactive. In D.C., October 10th. We've done probably like 60 shows over the years, which is crazy. I have no memory of those shows. I know. I remember all of them. Ask me a city and I'll tell you what happened. But also, I twisted your arm to get back on the road, so I just want to make sure that these are great. We're only doing two. We're only doing two. Exactly. How's the panda diplomacy? Is Caitlin going to be reporting on that? I was like, you know what? It's funny you were here because I was like, why are we talking about pandas? You know why? Why? Everybody loves a panda story.

43:47No, listen, I got nothing against pandas. Are you kidding me? I don't want the panda community to come after me. No. Oh, God, no. You're getting a big award tomorrow night. I am. Yes. Yes. Congratulations for broadcasting and cable. And cable hall of fame. Yeah. I wonder who's going to induct me. I'm going to induct me. Yes. Yes, I am. Wow. Yeah. In fact, literally. By the way, it's black tie. Did you know that? I just learned that. Yes, I just learned that. That seems a lot to ask. It seems like a lot, but it is a very big honor. It is an honor. Yes. It is a huge honor. And are you, you know who else is in there?

44:20Mr. Wolf Blitzer. Wolf Blitzer tomorrow night. And are you going to be like tequila-ing it up at Wolf's Table? Something like that. Yeah, okay. Something like that. So, okay, so we got like 20 seconds left. Okay, so October 10th, D.C., November 14th. These are like big, there's like large places. Yes. Thousands of seats. Yes, you can get a ticket. And it's going to be so fun. Where do people find tickets? Well, just all over. Just Google it, sweetie. AI will tell you before it kills us all. Or your Instagram. Or my Instagram. That's it, Andy, thank you. You can stream the show live or watch any CNN program on demand, in addition to getting original programming as well.

44:59Anytime, any screen, any mobile device, all you need is an all access subscription. Do you have yours, Andy? Yes. Scan the QR code on your screen or go to CNN.com slash watch to learn more. It's so easy. It is. Is The Source with Caitlin Collins starting right now? Yes.

45:17i'm ari shapiro and it's engagement and we get to talk about what we're obsessed with what we're engaged with what we need to process with a friend her name is amy odell she is a fashion writer blogger but the thing is she's a journalist who's written about the sacred cows of fashion and yes i mean gwyneth paltrow and anna wintour she has done biographies of both and she is also the sort of rare fashion writer who at this point kind of outside the system. And so the question that we're going to try to tackle is fashion, terrible now. Well, no, I mean, I would phrase it as how do you develop a personal style in the age of AI slop?

45:55You know, on social media, like creators have to try a whole bunch of different things and see what catches and then they make it over and over and over again. The same thing happens with clothing. So they're sort of seeding the market, seeding the Internet with all of these different ideas. and then they can see what sells and then they can just make them really fast. Follow Engagement Party. Wherever you get your podcasts.