Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)

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25:11I'm obsessed with the fact that you have had these really unbelievable roles. And so you start with Spike. What is your first marketing role? Oh, gosh. Well, this is a hard one. Yes, it is Pepsi, technically. But that came because of the recommendation I'd made to Spike about hiring Beyonce. This is it. I know this is a great story. Because Beyonce was not Beyonce then, to be fair, right? She was not Beyonce. Beyonce beginning. That's correct. She was actually coming out of Destiny's Child and she was being panned, like, universally. Really? Yeah, because people were like, ah, there's been no, like, solo artist who's come out of a girl group that succeeded, except for Diana Ross.

25:51Oh, wow, that was a long time before. Correct. Yes. You know, but I saw an artist. So at this point, you're at Spike's and you decide to put Beyoncé forward for something, right? Yeah, by the way. And Pepsi essentially noticed you. I'm still an assistant. You are an assistant at this point. So how long did you spend with Spike? Four years. Four years. Yeah. You're still an assistant, but Pepsi see you because you make this like baller move. That's right. You put Beyonce in the commercial and they're like, her. Yeah. Over here. Yeah. Well, because here's the thing, and I think this is actually an important note, which is that you really do have to speak up for yourself.

26:23Because it wasn't like anybody was like, oh, let's give her credit. No one's coming to give you credit. No, no, no. No one. No. Is that quite the opposite at that point? That's right. Somebody else probably needs to take credit for that because they've been paid to do it. Oh, absolutely. Yes, of course they do. Because it became a hit. And so the other trick is that you have to talk about yourself. Everybody says, oh, be humble. Put your head down. Do the work. They'll find you. That is bullshit. Yeah. No one's finding you. No one finds you. You have to advocate for yourself. You have to advocate for yourself.

26:52You have to say the words. And you have to take credit for your work. But Bo, talk to me about this because why? I talk about this all the time. Why do people get so uncomfortable Specifically women And I'm going to say it Specifically women With self-advocating Why do people say You're so full of yourself Like you're taking credit for X, Y, and Z You should be, you know Humble down Yeah Why does that happen? Well, because that's what society tells us I mean, it's not This is a behavior that's oldest time You know, it happened in the Garden of Eden With Eve You know what I'm saying? That's old Yeah, yeah, exactly I'm like, she was blamed for like humanity's sins.

27:33It started there. You know, and so, yes, of course we've been told to take your, like, take a seat, be quiet, like be grateful for the spot that you have. And so I'm not even upset that women think that way of themselves. Of course we do. We've been trained that way. I'm just saying, wake up. I'm saying, hey, look, they lied to you. And so this idea that like we should be humble about our accomplishments and, you know, we'll seem like bitches if we say the thing which is like, oh, I'm great. And when somebody compliments you and you say, I know, because you do know. So I'm sorry, why am I saying thank you?

28:12For what? You know, it's like you didn't pay me a compliment. I wasn't already aware. You should tell me something I don't know. Then I'll tell you thank you. Has this backfired for you? Oh, of course. Yeah. Oh, yeah. because obviously there's going to be times when people have been like that. Yes. No, it happened just recently. You know, I went on Jimmy Fallon's show, The Tonight Show. Oh, we saw you. And you said, he said, you look so amazing. You're like, I do. Yes. And then he read off like my accomplishments and I said, yes, you're correct. And people said, oh, she should be more humble. Why is she so arrogant?

28:48And I said, all I said was, I know. And you are correct. Why has this become such a cornerstone of your brand and who you are? And why is it so important to you? Because I'm so aware that you are raising a beautiful, young, amazing daughter. And I think she shines through. I've literally seen this little girl through your social and a little bit on the show. And I'm like, it's so clear that she is so self-possessed and she is a strong woman in the making. But I'm interested at why you've really doubled down on this Because it's not an accident that you go around saying this all the time It's no accident that you didn't go like, oh, thank you so much Like, you know, Jimmy, you were like, indeed, yes I think mostly, where do I even start?

29:34It has happened to me so often Where people are intentional in trying to put me down or dim my light or make me feel like I should be in a different place, that it now is practiced that I buck against that. You know, it's like it is now a habit that it doesn't matter what I'm doing. I must be bigger. I must advocate louder. I must be more possessed about who I am. because if I don't do that, the ease with which people will put me in a corner is what society does every day to so many of us walking around. And we don't even know because we're so used to our chains. But I'm over here rattling them and being like, no, I won't take it.

30:29And if I don't do that, maybe I won't even see my chains. And so I've got to do that every single day. I do it in the mirror. I do it when I'm on a Zoom call. I do it when I'm in person. I do it with my kid. I do it at the freaking volleyball game. I do it everywhere. Because the moment I stop, it's when somebody will try to put me down. And I refuse to let that happen. You know, it's like, I remember, I remember, Emma. Oh my gosh. It was February 2014. My husband had been dead for two months. I came back from bereavement leave to have a review at work timing yeah I know because I've been I have been off of work you missed the review like bring her in yeah they were like well you need to come in because we need to put into the system before the system shuts and I'm like I'm grieving we know how these corporates work but okay so I come in off bereavement work to have my review the year before had been a banner year for me in my career meaning that was the year that Beyonce did the Super Bowl halftime show, which I worked on.

31:36I had done so many things. I'd set up the next three years of Super Bowl performances, the$50 million deal that Pepsi did with the NFL. I mean, it was a banner year. At the same time, half of that year, I was battling my husband's oncologist and my mother's oncologist as they both dealt with cancer. My mother survived, my husband did not. And I come in off of bereavement leave for a review. And my boss looks at me in the face and says, you know what, Boz, you didn't hit enough home runs in this past year. And so you don't get a promotion and you don't get a raise. And I was thinking, I don't know what more you do, how much more you show your brilliance.

32:24I was also thinking practically. My husband had just died. I had a four-year-old daughter. And I was like, I have to raise this child by myself. I'm looking down at the next 14 years until she's 18. And then four beyond that for college. I'm doing the math and saying, how do I even afford this? Yes. I need a raise. I need a job. I need a promote. Like, I need the things. This is not even just about my ego. This is practical. And then I went home and I cried my eyes out, girl. I cried, I cried, I cried. I said, how do they not see? How do they miss? And I realized that every time I was in a meeting when we're talking about the results, I said, we, all the time, we did this.

33:03My team did this. Da-da-da. We, all of the time. I never said I. And so how would they know? So I didn't even really blame my boss for not seeing it because I was like, I never took credit for anything. And I'm not saying at all that you should take credit for the things you didn't do or that like it was a team effort and you're like, I didn't say that. But say the things that you did do. Say the reason why you were important in the room. Yeah. And then say what everybody else thought to it. The reason why the things that happened happened. And so after - And you directly attributed the fact that you weren't speaking about yourself to the fact that you didn't get this pay rise and the promotion.

33:43I knew it. But you also knew that that was the time to leave. Yes. You're like, I'm moving on. Yeah, because I knew that like, look, I spent a decade there. Yeah, and you've done all the things. And that if they didn't see me as the turnkey person, they were never going to see it. And sometimes that's what's got to happen. You have to recognize the situation for what it is, even if it hurts. You have to say, hey, look, I can't give this another six months. And I don't care if that's a job or a relationship. It's a great piece of advice. Because I feel like so many of us get to that point in a job where you're like, one second, I'm doing the best work.

34:14I'm really shining. I'm meeting all the results. and yet there isn't place for me to grow here. So you're like, at that point, you make a decision. Yes. You have to live. But here's the thing. You can't wait for the company. But here's the thing. This is a hard thing, right? I'm saying it like a simple thing. It's a very hard thing. But it's a very hard thing because it's not always obvious. Because people will say to you in your job, like, okay, give us another six months, work on this one, two thing, and then we'll review again. Yeah, we'll see you in the next cycle. Like, totally. Or it's like, again, I don't even just attribute it to work.

34:44I think this is the behavior that happens in relationships too, where it's like, you know, you're with somebody and you want something to happen and they're like, oh, give me another six months to figure it out. No, sir. Exactly. I'm like, get out of here with your six months. Six months from now, I'm going to be on top of the world and you're going to be crying that you're not with me. You know what I mean? And so that's what happened to me is that I simply looked at the situation in which I was in and said, this can no longer be my experience. If you don't want to give me a promotion, if you don't want to give me a raise, if you don't want to appreciate me, it is because of what I did.

35:20Not because of what we did. But that's kind of radical self-responsibility. Yeah. And at the risk of, you know, a lot of people disagreeing with this. But that's very counter to where we are in the culture right now. Oh, well, yeah. Of course. Of course. Right? Not many people would say, this is my job now to go and change this. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just feel like, but we need it. We need more self-possessed people. I think we would be a better society for it. Because I think that - Same more, by the way. Well, because again, like we've been taught that like, oh, this is community, community, community.

35:59But I'm like, I'm just going to take it back to my African roots, okay? When you look at a village, everybody has a job, a responsibility. Yes, we're a village and we're a community. It takes a village to raise a child. We've all heard all of the quotes and the things, okay? However, everybody has a job in the village and in the society. Not everybody is doing everything at the same time. And so if you don't do your job well, the society falls. So what makes you think that you shouldn't be standing advocating in your role, in your space, that you are doing the thing excellently that is going to allow for the entire community to flourish?

36:38Facts. So therefore, I'm like, we should all be self-possessed. If you're doing your job and you're doing it really well, that means this person's going to do their job and they're going to do it really well. Yeah. So that's the way we should all behave. So what do you say to people? Because I'm sure you get so many people ask you, how do you start a career in marketing? What's your advice? Well, here's the challenge with marketing, which is that it's one of those careers where I do believe in the ladder. You know, you have to climb it. Like you have to start at the bottom. You have to learn the business.

37:09You have to have like, you know, small assignments that lead to the medium assignments, which is the large assignments, which leads to the extra large assignments. You know, it doesn't you can't come in into the top. And so this idea that like, you know, you're just going to come in and come up with this like brilliant plan is it may be. Because you have no idea about execution. Yeah. And it really takes executing, you know, and making the mistakes and realizing that the messaging was wrong or that the target was wrong. Or, you know, it's like, I could have had a funnier, faster exit or a funnier and faster entry.

37:43Like those things are built over time and you can't do that quickly. And so it's like if you want to create marketing, start with yourself. You're the first brand. And you started with yourself. Hell yeah. Yeah. And you're finishing with yourself right now. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, because I also feel that this goes, you know, into the conversation we have about advocating for yourself. It's like, look, nobody was calling me badass until I started calling myself that. They weren't? No. Nobody said that. You gave yourself that name? I sure did. Oh, you really do have the audacity. I do. No one gives himself a nickname.

38:18Who gives himself a nickname? You. And you should too. I'm like, why would you not do that? Maybe I need to be a better marketeer. Seriously. I'm like, why would we do that? Yes, yes, yes. No, I just assumed someone called you that and you were like, yeah, I am. No, no, no. I'm going to run with it. No, I called myself that. Oh. I told people that. Oh, of course you did. Yeah. It's unsurprising after this 30-minute conversation. No, but it's true because here's the thing is that it's like, look, what is it that you're actually good at? You know, some of this, a lot of the conversation we're having is about self-awareness.

38:46It's like, what is the thing that you're really good at? Because you're not good at everything. I'm not good at everything. No one is. But I'm exceptional at a few things. And then that's the stuff that you like. Get it. Totally. Totally. I do think that we've also been lied to about this idea of like, you know, sort of like working on the stuff that you're not good at so that you can become. Don't bother. Why would you do that? Don't bother. It's like be a specialist. Be a specialist. Have ruthless prioritization. Yes. Just be narrow. I mean, we spoke to Melody Hobson in this podcast. And I love, I mean.

39:17We love Melody. I mean, we love Melody. How do we not love her? But she talks about having an act like this is like she is a specialist. It's like she is excellent at finance. She understands finance. And from there, you get to do many, many different things. But I feel like, again, it's a little bit in the culture to be a bit of a rapper slash actor now. Right. Yeah. I only think that that happens to you when you are excellent at something. Then you have the choice as your career grows and as you get better and you get more opportunities, then you can go a bit broader. But in the beginning of your career, it's like you've just got to be really excellent.

39:50Well, here's the thing. I actually believe that it's like, look, there's a trait that you have that can be expressed in many different ways. That's actually the way I think about specializing. My specialty is storytelling. That is what I am excellent at. And so it can come across in marketing. It comes across as an author. It comes across as a TV personality. I'm a storyteller. And that is what I'm going to stick to. When did you understand that about yourself? and when were you able to give yourself that label? I think I understood that very early, actually. Because marketing is all about storytelling, right?

40:22It's telling the most compelling stories and being able to communicate that in a myriad of ways. Yes, exactly. Yeah. But I think I knew that about myself very early on, but I didn't know it as a career. Probably, I would say, until that moment with Spike when I could see Beyonce for who she was, you know, and be able to tell Spike that like, hey, look, this is why we should look at her because X, Y, and Z thing. And that five second story is what then made him say, okay, you know what? I'll go watch that. Does Beyonce know this about you? Yeah. Yeah. How amazing. That's so cool. Because you worked with her for a long time after that as well.

40:57This relationship. It's a lot of deals. And Super Bowl. A lot of deals, yes. I mean, absolutely insane. I feel like you've worked for such unbelievable people. And that has like a way of rubbing off on you. But they're also like, you work for a lot of founders. You work for Travis. You worked for Reed. You worked for Spike. Yeah. I feel like there was maybe another founder in there somewhere that you worked with. Jimmy. Jimmy. Jimmy at Bits. Ari Emanuel. Ari. Yes. Ari. So many, so many. So many men. So many formidable men. So many interesting characters. So many interesting characters. What an elegant way to put that.

41:33What did you learn from these like powerhouse men? Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, I think at the very bottom of it, all of them are extraordinarily passionate about their thinking. Not about everything. About their thing. The thing. Passion. Passion. Like real passion. Like real passion. Like we will scrap over this thing. This one thing. It doesn't matter what it is. The thing. I always find that so impressive, don't you? Yeah. If you care so much about something. Yeah. You know? And then they surrounded themselves with people who also believe in their thing. Mm-hmm. Smart. Simple. Yeah, simple.

42:13but smart because the thing is that it wasn't necessarily just about like paying people enough money to be with you. It was that extra sauce of like finding people who are as passionate about your thing. Maybe not more passionate, but as passionate at least. And then surrounding themselves with those people. Now, everybody else who falls outside of that and as the company grows, okay, whatever. But the inner circle, the people who are talking to you every day, who are in your ear, who are telling you you're great or who are telling you suck must have as equal passion for the thing that you love.

42:51Oh, I couldn't agree more. That you love. Honestly, this morning, so I started my day in a big fight with my chief product officer about pricing. And she was so passionate. What this woman doesn't know about the price of jeans, it's not worth knowing. And I just backed down because I was like, you know what? And I had to push and push and push. But it made me think, I was like, you are so good at your job. that you can fight with me for 35 minutes about pricing. And I was like, yeah. And it just, again, it made me so happy because I was like, it's amazing that you know this much. But I think you're right.

43:22It's like the people you surround yourself with, the inner circle is really important. Really, really important. I mean, I want to talk to you about the business that you've started. And I'm so obsessed with staffing and I think it's so key. But before we move on to that, what do you think, when you think about what will guarantee a marketing moment, like a moment in culture, and you've had so many of these moments. What do you think the key, like the keys are to like crafting an incredible marketing campaign or a marketing moment are? Ooh, it probably has to start with curiosity, like deep curiosity for the moment, you know?

43:58Because I think the thing that happens - For the moment in the culture, you mean? The moment in time. Like right now. There are marketing campaigns that were so successful along my career that I can check off and like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick that would not work today. Yes. You know? Yes. And there are things that are going to happen tomorrow and in five months and in 10 years that I don't know yet. And the key to being successful in those moments is deep curiosity about what is happening right now. People always want to say, oh, what happens in five years? And that's why I don't make those plans.

44:28Yeah. Because I'm like, if you plan for that, you're going to fail, you know. Because how would you know what's going to happen in five years? It's very interesting. I remember in 2020, right at the start of the pandemic, I took a job, my job at Netflix, which became, I didn't know then, but was going to become my last corporate job. And are you sure both? Yes, I'm positive. Although who knows what happened? Who knows? You don't know. You don't know, girl. I don't know. I don't know. Five years. Maybe I changed my mind. But I remember having a little bit of a plan. Oh, see. It's more of a feeling.

45:03It's a feeling. It's a feeling. It's a feeling. We know that you go by your gut. But you know, the thing is that, like, I kept having these conversations with all these senior leaders who, yeah, everybody's panicking, right? And they're just like, oh my God, we're going to do our strat plans that we did for three years and for five years are in the shitter because we don't know what to do. And everything is shut down and blah, blah. People are waiting for two weeks. Then they're waiting for six months. And it was like, oh my God, a year has passed. And it was only the people who were like, okay, what do we do today?

45:29Yeah, that won. That we're winning. That won. And so my point is that, like, again, You are so right about that. The only thing that had cut through in COVID was like the things that were ingrained in the moment. In the moment. Yes. In the moment. COVID marketing was special. Oh my gosh. And let me tell you. Them days. Yeah, look. That's where you separated the goods from the greats. Ain't it the truth? Yeah. Because you had to be unafraid of being totally in the moment and not worrying about what happens in three months. Yes. You know, and being like, okay, well, maybe we are all outside again in three months.

46:01And maybe we're not. But today we are inside. We're inside. And so this is what we're going to do today. And this is the feeling. This is what we have to go on. Yes. Okay. So being like obsessed with the culture and the moment. Yes. And curiosity. Deep curiosity. About people, about the moment, about like the product. Deep curiosity about this very moment in time and what everybody is doing around this moment. And if you have that, you can craft anything that will win.

46:31lately my social feeds are full of wellness hacks that are kind of questionable like should I really be taking olive oil shots every morning or is red light therapy the cure for everything I'll stick to an actual professional thank you and with ZopDoc it's easy ZopDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in-network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment filter by insurance location speciality and ratings from verified patients and then you can see their actual appointment openings choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit appointments usually happen within 24 to 72 hours and same day visits are often available we use it here at aspire and you should too it makes taking care of your health so much simpler and so much less stressful.

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48:50I heard you say somewhere that your ambition, how did you say this? I want to make sure that I get it right. I think that you didn't say this. You actually said that you probably wouldn't do it all again if you repeated your career. And I wonder what your ambition has actually cost you. Ah, I mean, look, I think that, not I think I know that I wouldn't do this all over again not because I'm ashamed or I don't like it or that I haven't had a great time in this career I certainly have but why not do something else? You know it's like why would I not explore a different avenue? Like if right now God came down and said Boaz you know you have the choice at this moment you can retain all this information you have right now and start over doing it I'd be like no Give me something else.

49:48And I'm going to become a prima ballerina. You know, or an Olympic, like, gymnast. I really enjoy you as both, actually. I think it would be fantastic. You know what I mean? Why not? You know, I do something else. And it is, again, not because, like, I'm not enjoying this, and I don't think I'm great at it, or that I haven't had a good time, but it's just, like, the idea that we have so many destinies, and that you're simply just choosing one and going with that is what I firmly believe. I believe I would have been great at any number of things, but this happened and it's happening. Was there a cost?

50:28Yes. For you? Oh, for sure. Because when I got that, when I heard that, I kind of equated it with the fact that it had been so hard that you had broke so many barriers that you had, you know, completely, I guess, change the way that we think about who gets to have those jobs that had been so heavy and so hard on you that you wouldn't do it again. No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't it. It wasn't that at all. Because I actually think that regardless of the past, I would have had that anyway, that it would have cost me that anyway. And that's not a morbid thing for me. I think that is simply where I am, where my spirit is and this time that I'm in, you know, that regardless if I wanted to be the prima ballerina or the Olympic gymnast, that I would have had to have given up a lot.

51:14I would have had to bear the scars of like a lot of wounds. I believe that that would have been my journey anyway. And I don't feel badly about that actually. Have there been a lot of trade-offs for you? Yes. Oh, a ton of them. Some of the simple things are things that you'd probably assume like relationships you know both romantic and platonic I would say in some regard privacy and also maybe some naivete about people yes about way things are yes you know that it's hard to know until you're in those situations I mean how would you how would you know yeah so it's like you know how good and how bad people can be is an innocence that sometimes I wish I still had.

52:00I don't have that because I've seen it. You've seen the other side of it. You know that. Gross. Yes. And scary. And very scary. Very scary. You speak about like your gut guiding you and I wonder if your gut has ever led you wrong. No. It hasn't. Never. I feel like as a woman I always lean in to my gut. Yeah. But it hasn't always been exactly right. Really? Yeah. There's been I definitely feel like there's been a couple of times I was like well that decision was a little off key, but I don't know. Like I look at you and I feel like, yeah, like I feel, no, I feel like more specifically for work.

52:35Sometimes I feel like I've let ego, you know, it's like I'm on a run, I'm on a tear and I'm like, oh shit. Like, do you know what I mean? Like I've bitten off more than I could chew. But you know, my gut told me to do it. Like I was following my, you know, I was following my intuition. I was following what I felt was the right thing to do for me and it wasn't for whatever reason. See, now for me, I do separate like sort of my intuition, my ego and, you know, desires. Tell me how you think about that. Well, because I don't think that desire and intuition are the same thing. No, they are not. You know, and ego and intuition.

53:09Those are so many layers. And intuition is so pure that it can't lead you wrong. I think sometimes what happens for us is that we do let our ego lead or our desires lead and we mask it as intuition and it's not. And that's when you have to be honest with yourself and be like, actually, that was not my intuition. That was my ego. That was not my intuition. That was my desire. Facts. That was not my intuition. That was my hope. Hope. Hope. Hope. That ugly, terrible thing. You know what I mean? It's like... I have plenty of that. Yeah. You know, your intuition is not that. I do believe that my intuition has often screamed at me and I have made a different decision but my intuition when listened to never has led me wrong you ever get into one of these dream positions and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be oh of course every single one really what do you mean every single one there hasn't been one no no that's the truth well because there's always something else there's always something there's always something but by the way that doesn't mean that like I feel like it was the wrong thing it was just that like you know you walk in and you're just like ooh this is gonna be fantastic and then it's like okay maybe not you know what I mean but the thing is that it's always what do you do do you are you the type of person that goes I'm gonna change that or are you accepting of what it is and you work within it okay so again here's a controversial thing give it to me it's always about me so what is it that I'm learning I'm just gonna I'm like no but what am I learning from this thing you know look I've been accused of a lot of things and this again And it goes back to like, you know, people have said that I am selfish in my jobs.

54:53You know, that I come in and that I care more about myself than the brand. And they are correct. You could say that about me all day long. All day long. And I will never deny it. I think you have to be selfish. You have to be. What are you talking about? When people say that, like I was always so confused. Oh, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. I am. What are you even talking about? Like, oh, but it used to be like a huge criticism that people thought they were getting me for. to be like, you know, well, you shouldn't hire her because, you know, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. She loves herself more than she loved this company.

55:23You are goddamn right. So what was your retort to that? Like, how'd you get the job anyway? Well, because I'm the best at what I do. And I have the confidence of that. So if you want to make this company better, you're going to hire me. And you know why I'm so good? Because I know I'm so good. That's because I put myself first. Always. And so when I'm in the job, I'm like, no, I don't think that this company is better than me. I think this company is going to teach me to make me better than I am today. And I'm going to make you better because I am in the pursuit of making myself better. And you can do the two things.

55:55Absolutely. But they go hand in hand. They have to be. Of course they go hand in hand. They have to be. Of course they go hand in hand. So I get to Uber, okay? Hired by Travis Kalanick, who's the founder and CEO. And then Travis was out, right? Travis was out two weeks after I started. Four, four, four. Okay? But I come into the company and we had a very honest conversation about that. And you were Travis's choice. Yes. So you were hired by Travis and then Travis is out two weeks later. That's right. That's right. So then you're the person everyone's at. Yeah. Yeah. They're looking at me crazy.

56:23Okay. But the thing is that like, I was very honest with Travis. I was like, hey, look, like, you know, I had was coming off of like big wins off of Apple. Right. And I said, look, your company's in trouble and I can help you turn around this brand because I know what I'm doing when it comes to crafting brand stories and being able to position things to people in a way that they have perhaps not thought about. And the way you're talking about this company is just wrong. You know, you're talking about tech, tech, tech, and they care about emotion, emotion, emotion. And so we're going to craft it differently.

56:54But in doing so, I am going to be in the front. I'm the one who's going to tell everybody. And I'm going to make myself better because I'm going to be crafting it every single day. And you say this in the interview? Like you're saying this as you're going through the rungs of Uber to get hired. You have to be honest. And they're accepting that. Yes. Because the problem people have is that they come in and they lie. Did you, do you think you've ever lost out on roles going in with that same rhetoric? No. Did you think you went somewhere else that you didn't end up working? They were like, no, Bo's, this is about...

57:26You know why? I'm going to tell you this. This is going to sound crazy too. Okay? Because I've never had to interview for a job that I knew I wasn't going to do. Oh. I mean, you know what I mean? No, it's true. Because the people have come looking for me. I don't. So at that point, you know you're in. Yeah, so why should I lie to you? You came here, asked me about what you want me to do for you. So why would I lie to you? So you're like, I'm going to be the front person. I'm going to be the one that takes this message. That's right. And I'm going to put it out there and I'm going to put me in the center of it.

58:00That's right. And that's what you get. I'm going to talk about me. And so when that New York Times cover came out and said, is this the woman that would save Uber? I remember it. Yeah. I remember it. That's right. And I'd like somebody to argue and be like, oh, it should have been an engineer. It should have been this person. No, fuck that. It was me. Because how else was the company going to change? Wasn't that something was wrong with the algorithm? It wasn't that there was something wrong with the truth. No, no, we were all getting our taxis. On time. Everybody was getting it. So they're fantastic.

58:25The engineers were beautiful, amazing, innovative, smart. The smartest in the business, I believe. No, it was the reputation. It was the brand. And what was I? The chief brand officer. And so why would my face not be on there? And you only stayed there for a year, though. Yeah. A year and a year. What happened? You just were like, Oh, it was chaos. Gotta go. Chaos. And again, this is why I'm saying it has to be about me and it has to be about you. Because at some point, the apple cart was upset. And I knew that if I didn't save myself, I would drown there. Not because the company was going to drown, but because I was going to drown.

59:02And so sometimes you do have to make the decision. You just have to know when it's time to leave. Yeah. And it's just like, look, the company is going to go public and this is going to happen and that's going to happen and this money is going to come and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, no, stay here one more day and I die. And that's not worth it to me. No. Because also it's like, again, this goes back to the whole confidence of it all. I'm like, well, I can get another job. There's all kinds of people calling me all the time. And you never worried about reputation. You were like, no, because your reputation was intact.

59:31Yes, my reputation is my worth. So what do you think when you look at this, again, extraordinary career, what are the things that you got right? Like when you think about, because you clearly got a lot right. You don't have those jobs with those companies, one after the other, after the other. It's like. And be trash. And be trash. There's no way. Or even be mediocre. Or even be like, you know, have a massive team because you can't. It's not like you take the people from Apple and put them at Uber and the people from Uber and put them at WME and so on and so forth. So what do you think you got right?

1:00:02Well, I think I got leadership right very early. Okay. You know, being able to move a group of people and have them believe. But again, this goes back to storytelling. Because my storytelling isn't just about the external story, but it's the internal story. Oh, it's just as important. Yes. Just as important. And so again, just using the example of Uber, it's like when I got there, people at the company didn't want to wear their Uber t-shirts to the grocery store. They didn't want to wear, and we went to cocktail parties and went and tell people that we worked at the company. And so the internal story was actually more important than the external story.

1:00:34And so it's like the storytelling of like why it's important for you to do the work and to do your job really well was critical. Critical. And I would even tell you this, which is, you know, a very hard story. But when I left Pepsi to go to Beats, which was just after Peter had died, an article had come out that said, you know, Pepsi's Boseman St. John going to Beats by Dre, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it was like, you know, in the industry, it was just like almost like a step down. Right. Oh, it was seen as a step because Beats wasn't Beats at that point. Oh, and Pepsi is like the marketing king.

1:01:13Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's like if you want to have a career as a marketer, that's not what you would do. You know, you would stay at Pepsi and rise. In any case, I was in intense grief. My reputation was really big because of the things I've done with Beyonce and Super Bowl. And, you know, there was like Bruno Mars and Katy Perry. And like, it was like, gaga. It was hit after hit after hit. And so I'm coming in and the marketing team is fledgling, you know, but there is a group of them. It's about 50 people or so. And there are people from all other corners of the company who are coming in, crowding into the boardroom to hear me talk for the first time and say what we are going to do about, you know, beats music and how we're going to take over the industry.

1:02:00Right. And in the morning I wake up and I'm just like, I can't stop crying. I've left my daughter in New York. I'm terrified. All of the grief and the sadness is still there. It's very raw. And I'm thinking, what am I going to tell these people? Because I don't even know what I'm talking about. Like, I don't know what the future of music is. I don't even know what, I don't know about this technology. And so I'm walking into the boardroom and like sweating, my armpits are itching. And I'm like, what am I even going to say? and I decided to tell them the story about what my last year had been like, what the last six months had been like, what the last three months had been like.

1:02:36And I said, I am a new widow and I can barely breathe. And every time I open my eyes, I'm looking at a nightmare. Not just of like the past six months, but the next six months. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm here because I'm desperate. I have to win. I have to win in this job. I have to win in my career. I don't have any other options. And so who's with me? I'd be like, I want to work for that lady. I won an army that day. Of course you did. Of course you did. You know? And even to the point where last year I held... Because you showed them your vulnerability. You showed them your true self, but you showed them that you could not lose.

1:03:21Yeah. And I would not. You had to come here and be excellent. Yes. Like who, like, you know, it was like in that moment, yes, of course I was being vulnerable and I was, you know, telling people what was happening. But also I was telling them that I was going to scrap. Like I was going to fight for this. And I had to win. So if you want to win, then you're with me. Don't go with the person who's over here trying to get a paycheck. I'm not just here for a paycheck. I have to win. For my own survival, I have to win. And with that, that story is what then allowed me to lead a group of people who had to break down doors, who had to do things sometimes wrong, who didn't know what was going to happen in six months, who had to convince Apple that we should be acquired, who had to walk into Cupertino and all those people who thought they were better than us and show them that actually we had a point to be.

1:04:18You need us. Yeah. And so my version of leadership is that. And I think that's what I got right a lot. And therefore, I was able to walk into room after room after room after room and convince people that they should follow me. They should do their work and do it well, do it better than anybody else.

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1:07:37I feel like your presence is and has been, is, has been, will continue to be a challenge for some people, right? You are in rooms where you show up with the earring and the top and the stomach and all the things, and you're unapologetic about it. You should ask the housewives. When you can stand with the housewives and make the housewives look a little dull, like, then you know. But I'm talking about when you're in a boardroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you are turning up as your whole self. So how do you manage the criticism and still show up as yourself so unapologetically? You know what? Okay, now look, I keep saying things and I know that it sounds simple and it's really hard.

1:08:13Now I'm just going to put together like a reel. I'm just... I'm like, this is real time, y 'all. Here's the thing. No, but you have to be, not you, I have to be so in love with myself that nothing anybody says is ever going to pierce that veil. It is the same way I was at 13. When I look at myself and I'm just like, God, you are, your nose is perfect. Your hair is amazing. You're so damn funny. You're so smart. Why are they not laughing at the ghosts? Why do they say that your hair is too nappy? Why do they say that? So weird. They must be blind. It's so weird. And you really think that and you really believe that?

1:09:00Oh, I really believe that. So what do you do? I'm sure you must have friends, women, colleagues, people that have worked for you over the years who don't have that. How do you take just the little pinky of those and do that for yourself? Well, here's the thing. I'll actually give it to you like this, which is that I do that with my daughter. Right? I remember once, oh my gosh, Emma. I was in Target once. Okay? No fault of Target. But I was in Target. You still in Target? My daughter was probably two, maybe three. And she was sitting in the front part of the cart pushing it. And we were, I don't even know what I was shopping for, but we're walking.

1:09:37And I was looking at her and I was just like, gosh, you're so pretty. You know, I was like, you're so, so pretty. And this woman turns to me and she was just like, you know, you should tell her she's smart, not just pretty. Because girls need to know they're smart. Ooh, the way I rounded on this person. And I was like, how dare you? How dare you? She knows she's smart. But the world is going to tell her she's not pretty. And it is my job to instill within her every day that she's beautiful. And not just beautiful, the most beautiful. This morning, when I woke up, my daughter, okay, she's now almost 16.

1:10:21Girl, you cannot make that child up for nothing. All right? The alarm goes off and I'm just like, does she have ears? I don't understand what's going on. Shake him to wake up. Is that, you know? Yeah. Get to that H. Yeah. And I'm like, well, it's time to wake up. And she like rolled over and just looked at her face. And I was like, God, you're so beautiful. And I was like, look at this nose. It's like, it's mine, by the way. It's so gorgeous. It's like, and that chin, that's a St. John chin. That's not mine, but it's gorgeous. And look at these cheekbones. Now that's Rambo. She got those cheekbones and you got them too.

1:10:54was so great. And she's just like laying there. She's like, mom. And I'm like, you know. But the thing is that like, I and she and other women, you have to be so in love with yourself. And yes, I'm using beauty as just one of the things. But it's like, you have to deeply love yourself in order to withstand the criticism that will come to you. Because everybody will criticize you. Your family will. Your friends will. your business associates will, the world will, social media will. We know that for sure. But you've got to be so in love with yourself that you turn and look at that criticism and say, why would they think that?

1:11:35And it has to be so foreign to you and so shocking that you cannot accept it. Because why would you? It doesn't make any sense. They must be crazy. And you have to get to that level. And so if you're not there, do it. That is the assignment. Practice. Do it every day. You must do it. You must do it. You must look at yourself in the mirror. You must tell yourself until you believe it, you must do it. It is not going to come from anybody else. I'm not going to be able to tell you, like, here are the five steps to walking into a room with confidence. You must believe it. You must know that when you walk into the room, it is different because you are there.

1:12:15And if somebody else was there, it would not be the same. You must believe it. I believe it. I think I come into this podcast and it is different because I'm. It is. I know. It is. It's just a fact. It's just a fact. But you have to believe it. You have to believe it. You have to believe it. And if there's like one thing that I wish everybody would understand, it is that. Find it. Work on it. And until you do, nothing that you do will ever feel fulfilling. Because somebody's always going to tell you that it's wrong. somebody's always going to tell you you should have done differently. Somebody's going to tell you that that sparkle doesn't work for you.

1:12:54And you wore it because you were like, I'm going to wear this for Bose and it's going to be cute. And she's going to love it. And I do. But you believe that. And that's why you put that on today. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't have put it on. If you didn't think that I wouldn't love it, you wouldn't put it on. I mean, I was raised that way. You know, I was raised looking in the mirror. First of all, let me just say this, first of all, before I say looking in the mirror. I was raised just as you do with your daughter. my mom told me we were beautiful. That our curly hair was so beautiful.

1:13:25That my big two front teeth were the most beautiful. That my, you know, I have this huge birthmark that comes like right across me. Do you really? Oh my God, it's like so huge. Like right across my shoulder, right across my breast. And my mom said to me, you know, Emma, if I ever had to choose you just from your shoulders, I would know exactly which one you were. And in my head, I was like, yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Because I really believed it. And I do the same with my kids now. And of course, I talk about how smart they are. And of course, I talk about how talented they are. And they can do anything that they want.

1:13:56But actually, for women, so much of how we feel is attributed to our looks. Yeah, how we look. How we step into this world. And that's just a fact. Anyone that's anything different is a liar. Let me actually make this point too, which is that I do think you have to be specific. You know? I think otherwise, it just feels pithy. You know? If you're too broad about it. Like you're not just beautiful because you're beautiful. It's like, why? Yeah, why? Because of your birthmark. Yes. Because of your two front teeth. Because of your curly hair, you know? And that's why I'm specific when I'm telling Liel why she's beautiful.

1:14:28And I'm specific when I'm telling her why she's smart. Yeah. And I'm specific with the example so that she can pull on that. Yes. And recognize for herself. Well, because also people have specificity when they put you down. Oh, right. Because I remember in school, it was always about this line in my lip and they would come up with things. but my mom had already said to me that line is the most people I've ever seen. I was like, you lot are dumb. I was like, this line is so special. That's exactly right. But again, the specificity is really important. I love you. I literally love you for saying that so much.

1:14:59I really do. All right. I'm going to go back to marketing because I do feel like I'm going to rinse you for all of this information. I'm there. Don't be worried. I'm going to get that. I'm going to go slightly over but I promise you I'll get there. Oh my gosh. We're having too much fun. Yeah, we're having too much fun because we've got so much to say in this whole thing. All right, let's talk about this. If someone is launching a brand tomorrow, what is the first thing or what should they think about from a marketing point of view? Okay, the first thing they should think about, well, sorry, there's two, sorry.

1:15:28No, that's all right. Two things. And they are sort of like always the yin and the yang, which is that one, it's like, what is so special about the thing? There has to be something. Think of one thing that is special about the thing that you're launching or the brand that you're creating and sit on that. Like make that the centerpiece. On the other hand, who are you talking to? Has to be very specific also. It can't be everybody because that's just not how the world works. It's not the way that we talk. And so those two things together are then what's going to make the stability and the foundation of the brand.

1:16:01It will weather all of the storms and will help you to make decisions about the brand. So it's like, if it doesn't celebrate the one thing, if it doesn't talk to the one person, then that thing can't work. then you don't do it. It's so simple. Yes. Right? It is. You're talking about what is USB, what is your audience? Yeah. And really, really figuring those two things out. How do you even make a campaign that kind of sparks conversation and cuts through noise now when there's so much out there? Oh, man. Well, because I think all it really takes, and I know, again, it sounds so simple, is that it has to be true to those two things.

1:16:34You know? Because it's like, everybody's like, oh, let's make a viral campaign. And it's like, well, first of all, it's like, what's going to work for you It's not going to work for the person. I know everybody thinks they know this academically. They don't behave that way. You know, so I'm just like, well, what's special about this one thing? What's special about this mic right here? And who is going to use it? And then make a campaign that talks to that, that talks to that specific thing that is so great about this and talks to the person that you're trying to talk to. And it has to be narrow.

1:17:05It is counterintuitive because you're like, you know, shouldn't we make this microphone for everybody with lips? Everybody who has a voice. Never. Never that. No. You can't do that. And so, but it becomes difficult when you're like, oh, but I've got to sell. Well, because people always imagine that you're shrinking your audience, right? If you're making jeans for curvy bodies, people are like, what about all the straight bodies? I don't worry about that. Have your specificity, do your one thing and do it perfectly and own that customer. That's right. That's right. Because I always also compare it to like, if you and I left here, right?

1:17:35And tomorrow night I'm at a cocktail party and you walk in and all of a sudden you've got a Nashville accent. Oh, I'll try. And I'm like, who the hell is that? No, that's not Emma. You know what I mean? And then the person you talk to, they know you as your natural accent and then they hear this conversation. And they're like, what the hell was she doing? What was that accent she was talking about? Now they don't trust you. But it wasn't like you were lying to anybody. You said the same thing here. You said the same thing there. You didn't lie, but it was in your behavior. And so when you think about brands, it's like that.

1:18:08You know, what is the truth of the thing? and then say it honestly. Because the person who you speak to with your beautiful accent is going to still understand you. So why did you have to switch it? Yeah. You didn't. No, it's so true. Now they don't trust you. Now they don't trust you. And that's what happens with brands all the time. All the time. I needed to connect with that person from Nashville. No, you could have done it with the accent you have and you'd be fine. It's so true. So what do you do when things go wrong nowadays? Because we see so many brands put a foot wrong and it's kind of also easy to offend in this moment of social media?

1:18:41What should you do when you just, you make a mistake? Okay, here's the thing. All right, now, see, now I got to get like psychological. So I'm just like, well, was it a mistake? Okay, because first of all, you have to identify, was it a mistake? Or were people just upset at your choice? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, if it was a mistake - I could take that one right to church right now. Was it a mistake? Did you say something wrong or did people just not like it? Or just people didn't like it. You know? Because the truth is that, like, if you made a mistake and you know it's a mistake, then you apologize immediately.

1:19:16Apologize immediately for the mistake. And make corrective action immediately. Yes. But if you identify that it wasn't a mistake, people just don't like it, then you don't apologize. It works brilliantly for crisis management, by the way. It's like, did you do something wrong or did people just not like it? If you did something wrong, apologize. Right now. You don't just get up and start apologizing just because people didn't like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. You don't believe that. No. So then you're going to behave differently. Exactly, which is crazy. And you go back against everything that you believe in.

1:19:47That's right. And no one trusts you. And it's all about trust at the end of the day. All right, now I'm going to move on and I'm dying to talk about this new business of yours. Because when I saw the announcement of this, first of all, I was like, genius, genius, genius, timing, timing, timing, everything, all the things in the line. Yes. But I am so happy that you have launched your own brand. It's called Eve by Bose. Yes, that's right. I mean, you need to tell me everything. But the thing I am most impressed about is that you put your own money into this. Yes. Right? Oh, my gosh. How terrifying.

1:20:18Oh, my gosh. Yeah, how terrifying indeed. Yeah, very, very terrifying. How terrifying. But also because I believe it, you know? So part of the reason why I started the company was because, you know, I love hair. Like through and through. Okay. Always. Like when I did the Apple keynote in 2016 and people were like, oh my God, there's a new product. They also talked about my hair. You know, it's like when I was on the cover of the New York Times and saying that I was the one who was going to save Uber, I was in my long ass braids down to my ankles. You know, it's like I have loved hair my entire life.

1:20:49And part of the challenge with the hair extension business is that it's just not made for women of color, for black women. We're not at the center, even though we make up 80 % of the consumer base. Which is so wild, isn't it? Isn't it? And is that just like, is that a pure texture play or is it more nuanced than that? No, it's more nuanced. It is a texture play, but it's also things like lace. Colors of lace. Correct. Oh, you're about to have a skew intensive situation out here. So you are going to make different color laces. I have made different color laces. Wow. Yeah. How many different colors?

1:21:18I started with three right now, but I'll expand because literally today I was literally answering a customer question about another product I have, which is called Native Skin. And it basically is what you put inside of a wig, inside of the lace to hide the knots and make it look like scalp. Got it. Right. And she was like, oh, I'm between these two colors. So what do I do? And I was like, well, today what you're going to do is that you're going to use the product so you can hide the knots, OK, in the lace. Because that's the number one goal. Then you're going to take your foundation and you are going to color it a little bit.

1:21:45But don't worry, I'm coming with a shade for you. You're like, I got you. I mean, because why shouldn't I have 40 shades like we have in cosmetics? Should. But part of the problem was that these companies, these manufacturers just weren't doing it because they didn't feel a need to. You Google like how to, you know, tint my lace to be my complexion and you'll find 14 million videos of black women and women of color telling you how to do it. So my question was like, but why do they have to do that? And so I went to Guangzhou, China. As if doing your hair doesn't take long enough already. Girl, I went to the center.

1:22:18I went to the place with the biggest hair show in the world, Guangzhou, China. I went by myself. And I. That's a lot. Yeah. But I wanted to find out what's wrong. But wait a minute, because you are not manufacturing in China, right? No. Because I heard that you are actually in Ghana. Amazing. Yeah. So I built a factory. You built a factory. Yeah. Oh, good. You're self-funding. You're building factories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And processing. All the things. Wow. Well, because like, I also felt like, look, you know, they may have the corner on the manufacturing of hair, right? The sourcing of it, all of that stuff.

1:22:51So I'm still sourcing from Asia, from all kinds of places in Asia. But I wanted to manufacture in Ghana because I feel like the people there and the people I've hired will better understand how to talk to and make things for people like me. I mean, without a doubt. Yes, of course. So why would I not do that? You know what I mean? It's like, of course. Well, I tell you why you wouldn't do that because there's that cost implications. She's like, let me tell you. I've got a list. I've got a list. But I admire you. And I think it's incredible that you would do that because we know how passionate you are about that country, that region, about jobs, about supporting.

1:23:26So I admire it. But that is complex and it's complex for your, is this your first startup? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm also maniacal. I'm obsessed. I mean, of course you are. I am obsessed. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. It's like, I want to understand how we are threading each like dot of lace. I want to understand the textures. I want to understand why it sheds. I want to understand what the colors are, what products are going in it. I want to understand how we wash it so they can't be allergic for my sister who has sensitivities with that. I want it to smell good. I, cause I don't like it when you take a fresh extension out of a hair and it smells like plastic.

1:24:08No one wants that and it's right next to your face. Also, I don't want it to be delivered to me in plastic. I spend way too much money on it. So. You want to deliver her napkin? I want to deliver it, yeah. What are you going to deliver it in? I deliver it in a bonnet. Beautiful. Oh, perfect. Which is sewn by women in Ghana who work at the factory. Made with fabric that I designed myself and printed at GTP, which is the original manufacturing plant for fabric in Ghana. Feels very personal. It is. It is. And that's why you were willing to put your own money in. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I don't want anybody telling me what to do.

1:24:39But there was no, because I feel like, again, you've built this reputation. Yeah. You're now in the cast of Housewives. You could have gone out and raised money pretty easily, I would have imagined. Yeah, yes, yes, very much. Was there no temptation to do that? There was. Now, here's where we come back to it. Tell me. I wanted to raise at first because of my ego. Ah, because you wanted to be able to be like, I raised. Oh, the Manchester raised 50 million pounds. You know, she's the, yeah. Coming, fresh out all these jobs. I made the most money. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, whatever. And I was sitting there.

1:25:13Girl, and it was tempting. I was like, I could. And I could also not, I could also raise and not make that headline. Yes. But I was like, but why am I doing that? What am I doing it for? I can fund it. So why do I need to raise? And you were in that position where you were like, I can fund it. Yeah. Have you put a lot of money in? Yes. Like a scary amount of money? A scary amount of money. A scary amount of money. And I talked to my business manager about it. God bless her. Who was like... Was she supportive? Oh, no, no, no. Of course not. No, of course not. They literally never are. She was like, why would you use your money to do this?

1:25:46What kind of stupidity? And I was like... And again, this is why sometimes you got to really understand if it's your guts or what. And I just felt called. You know? I was like, it has to be mine. Like, it has to be mine. It has to be my skin in the game. I have to... People have to believe me. that like, I'm not taking anybody's money because I believe in this and it is mine. And I'm going to make it for you because I love it that much. I'm willing to put everything in it. And I'm going to stitch every single thread through this. I'm going to test every single product, not because I don't want to disappoint my investors, but because I can't lose.

1:26:28It is the same speech that I gave in that beat's office. I'm like I win because I have to win because I love it this much I have no doubt no doubt there's nothing in me that's like I'm like let me invest I have no doubt and you're winning like I'm here for it all the wigs but I love it I love it all the bundles all the pieces and I'm making it for everybody I love seeing it outside you must do oh my god Rebecca Minkoff called me and was like hey can I give give me some hair I was like girl it's not made for you but sure You know what I mean? I was like, I didn't You're like, listen, whatever you want I sent her the straightest texture I had I was like, I hope it works Okay?

1:27:08A little bit of flavor Everybody needs it Like, why not? Erika Jayne You know one of my classmates? Yes, Erika Jayne I mean, she's amazing Look And She knows how to wear some hair, that girl Let me tell you Erika Jayne wears platinum Yeah, I mean Okay 613 Do you have that color? I'm making it right now Yes, I love that I took her my first batch And I was like, here you go Listen, that's a great ambassador that i am listen i watched you turn up on housewives first of all i am obsessed i'm the first person like housewives is my number one guilty pleasure of life i didn't know that beverly hills followed by atlanta followed by new york i don't watch any of the others but that's my jam no no i love it it's almost like i like it if i get like a little bit sick and i'm gonna be like i gotta stay home today like honestly it's so my favorite so when you turned up first of all i was dead.

1:28:00Then I was dead. Then I was like, no, no, she did not. Like I could not imagine. I could not imagine. I know. I could not imagine. And everybody told me not to do it, by the way. Of course they told you not to do it because they were like, how are you going to go back and get one of these big ass jobs? Like, was this, again, I know you don't plan, but did it feel in your gut, did this feel right to you? Like that was the right move to make for that moment in your life? It felt divine. It really did. And as much as anything in my life feels divine, you know, I think I told you this before where I was like, hey, look, like I feel like the universe opens and I can feel it.

1:28:39And all I have to do is walk in it. Like I really I'm telling you, like I can feel it. I know it. and so this moment it was like the chasm formed and I was like oh shit okay this is where I'm supposed to go and so again it's like all those naysayers and the people are just like oh but your reputation and like oh people are gonna laugh at you and they're gonna wonder why in the hell you would do this and go argue with women on TV well but you don't I don't no but this is the interesting thing because that's not my thing you're changing the energy of the housewives because I feel like you came in with all of your intelligence and no yelling, no bickering.

1:29:21But Emma, Emma, Emma, this is what we're talking about, which is like, I believe in myself first. So you weren't coming in to join the cast of these housewives. You're like, I'm coming in as Bo's to do Bo's, to be Bo's. And I'm coming as me. And it doesn't matter what has worked in the past. And it doesn't matter that, you know, people love like a quick comeback that will like slice somebody down and all that. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that. And so I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do what I do. Do you think it aligns with your reputation and like as a storyteller? Yes. I think it is.

1:29:57It is my story right now because for a long time I have told my story, my personal story from a lens, which looks backwards. I think people would say that they know the story of me like as a personally as a mother and as a widow you know but they don't know my story right now like they don't know me personally they don't know if I cook they don't know if I drive they don't know who I'm dating they don't know how I'm mother right you know I'm a good mother you can see the product of my child but you don't know how I do it you don't know what my policies are you don't know if I allow her to date you don't know anything and so We're learning.

1:30:38We're learning. And so for me, that right now is the part of the storytelling that I want to deliver. And so it's like this platform allows me to do that. No, it really does. And I honestly, I have to tell you both, I think you are showing up beautifully in that show. Like, I feel like everyone who watches you, who kind of like, you know, knows you, is looking at that and being like, wow, she gives zero fuck. She is 100 % herself. Yes, myself. But there's an element of pride in there because I think that as a black woman coming into that show, it's hard enough. But you are, you're just you. Yeah.

1:31:15And you're coming in and you're doing it in such a kind of like higher orbit way. I'm like, look at her. She is not going down to that level. No, no, no, no, no. It's very interesting to see that. Because I think I'd be such a little bitch on that show. Like, I would just, do you know what I mean? I would be in there scrapping and fighting. It's another conversation for another day. They're like, come on. So I'm like, so when are you coming on the show? Listen, Boaz, I'm coming in as your friend. This is my pitch. Yes. Perfect. I'll take it. It's too funny. Who do you think is the best businesswoman on Housewives?

1:31:46Oh, see, now this is a hard one. Because I'm looking at it not in terms of like what they have done that would make them succeed, but if I would hire them. And I would hire Dorit. Probably first. Yeah. Why? Because she's the kind who will get obsessed. Yes, I can see that And will become Very passionate About the thing Like if she believes in it She's not letting it go I love that If you had to invest In one of the Housewives Who would you invest in? It doesn't need to just be Yeah, today It would be Erica Jane Facts I mean Easy Easy When you think about Housewives Just as a franchise And overall Do you think that Do you think that it stereotypes women Or do you think it's empowering For women overall?

1:32:28I'm sorry, today? Yes Hmm I think it stereotypes women today. But I think it has a potential to empower women. I think, you know, it's fallen into a little bit of a rut of complex arguments and disagreements that aren't founded in anything profound, you know? And so, by the way, my belief isn't that there shouldn't be any fighting on housewives. I think that that's a natural part of friendship and who we are. You know, we have conflict. Of course it is. I would prefer that the conflict is based on something with like real depth, purpose, and that it can be resolved or not with that same type of angle.

1:33:09You know, it's not like, like, oh, all the White Housewives have to get along, it has to be kumbaya and everybody just has to sing. That's not life. It's a reality show. That's right. I'm like, we all have so much conflict in our lives all of the time. Like, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what happens next season, right? And even for myself, and I'm like, gosh, there's so much happening in my life that there's, and there's conflict inside of my own life that I don't need to go and argue with somebody over the conflict. All it takes is for me to tell you what's going on. Maybe you agree or disagree, right?

1:33:42I remember one area in particular, right? Where I was at dinner with Dorit and Erica and we were talking about my relationship, my new relationship. Oh my God, of course, I watched the show. I know exactly what you're about to say. And then you tell them He hasn't even said I love you And their reaction is like What? Oh I mean look By the way That was all of our reaction Yeah of course Everybody's reaction Everybody was shook We're like what is she talking about? Everybody was shook Is this trying to have a baby With this man? Which is my next question But that was But that was an honest reaction Yes Honest And by the way Erica was like Absolutely not Like you know What wasn't seen on TV Right?

1:34:16Was that she was just like Oh this is ridiculous She was like absolutely not You cannot Do not have another conversation about having a baby or doing anything serious without him telling you he loves you. And we got into a little bit of a conflict on that. Oh, you did? Yeah, but that is a natural thing. And I think we should. Why didn't we see that? I know, right? We should have seen that. There was so much to see. Boz and Erika Jay? There was so much going on, you know? I want to see that. But the thing is that, but here's the thing. I trusted her disagreement. Yeah, fair enough. Because I know that she cares for me.

1:34:45And we don't have to agree on whether or not I think it was important that he says he loves me before I talked to him about having a baby because we don't agree. We just don't agree. But that's okay. And we can disagree on that. And we can disagree loudly too if we want to. Yes, yes. But the thing is that like we can also resolve it. Whereas now I'm just like, take that, Erica. You know what I mean? And she's just like, all right, all right. Maybe I was wrong. All right. You know? I only have one more housewives question for you because I'm obsessed. I could have done this whole thing about housewives.

1:35:13You did say that you were thinking about having another baby. Yes. And I just wonder, like at this point in your life when it feels like you're starting a new business and you've got the world is in front of you? Yeah. Really? Really? And I'll tell you why. It's not just love. I suffered so much through my pregnancies. Of course. I had early preeclampsia. I have a protein S deficiency. I had to take injections. I had to take medicine. I lost my first child to it. There was just so much. Thank you. There was so much that I suffered with it. And so part of, you know, what has happened in the last 16 years is me convincing myself that I didn't want another one.

1:35:58It wasn't the reality of it. Of course. Fear. Yes. You know, trauma, grief, all of it. And I'm not saying that those things aren't protective. They are. Because I was like, you know, actually, I don't want another child. I have one, I'm good. Like, I thank you, Lord, and I'm good with this one. But the truth of the matter underneath it is that it did take love in order for me to uncover that maybe there was a little spark or something in there. When Keely said to me that he wanted to have a baby with me, and I looked at that man like he was out of his mind. And I said, oh, see, I don't know what you're talking about.

1:36:36Okay, what does that mean exactly? And he's like, well, do you want one? And I was like, And she, yes. I was like, but I can't. And he was like, why? I was like, oh, and I've been sick, and I've had this, and I've had that. And he was like, well, could we ask a doctor? Could we talk to somebody? Could tell us definitively whether or not you can? And I was like, okay, but they're not going to, like, get rid of my fear. And I was wrong. They did. Yes. And so when I met Dr. Cindy Duke, who's an amazing fertility doctor, and she's talking to me about the realities of preeclampsia, my age, my, you know, like health, like what the last 16 years of hypertension have done to my heart, like all of those things.

1:37:25And she gave me the confidence that it's possible. Man, I'm telling you, I cried that day. I bet you did. A lot of tears. Yeah. Because I'd carried around a lot of guilt and a lot of trauma over 16 years. And I said, okay, well then, like, all I can do is try, you know? Maybe I will. So maybe I will. And so I'm going to do everything I can to see if I can. We're going to be watching both. Girl, thank you. We're going to be hoping for you. Listen. Thank you. We will be. So I guess my question to you is at this point in your life, it's like you've had all the big jobs. You've had the cultural moments.

1:38:04You're starting a new business. You're on my favorite show. Yeah. Most important thing. You're raising this beautiful little daughter and you've got all the hope in the world. Yes, yes, yes. For what your future could hold. What's important to you now? And what does the future hold? What's important to me now? You remember when I was telling you about like, you know, the universe just opening, right? It's not this universe. It's like God, you know, that I just want to do what is set out for me to do. Sometimes it feels like I'm drinking from a fire hose because it's so big, but it's so exciting.

1:38:44And every day something happens and I'm just like, I'm in awe, I'm in awe of this life. Like, I mean, how wonderful, how amazing is it to be able to like sit and commune with the universe, with God, and just be like, okay, what am I supposed to do now? And get answers. It is a masterful, beautiful thing. And I wish everybody could feel that way. I feel anointed that way. People are like, oh, you're glowing. I'm like, yes, because that's just my destiny, like showing up in my face. Like I'm so happy in this life. That's a really beautiful thing to say. That's just my destiny showing up in my face.

1:39:22I'm going to steal that one. Yeah, but it is. And the thing is that like, look. That's so beautiful, Bose. You know my story. Like it's not as if it's been a silver spoon. It's not as if it's just been like roses and like, you know, diamonds all along. And you know, Bose, it's so funny. And I do want to say this to you. I didn't ask you about those things for a reason because I think that, first of all, I'm a Bose fan. I read everything. I listened to everything. And I feel like the way you are in your life at this point has to be celebrated. And so my focus was very intentional because it's not to ignore because you have had an unbelievable life and you've had unbelievable tragedies, but it's more to pay respect to like where you're at and where you're going.

1:40:05And I think that that is really important. And those things I can't predict. Okay. I can't say like, oh my gosh, nothing bad will ever happen to me again. I don't know. I've seen like the depth of things and they're terrible and scary. And I hope nothing like that happens again. But if they do. I have utmost faith that my life is going to be excellent, regardless of those things that happen. And that's why I walk around with this smile. That's why I walk around with such optimism. That's why I walk around with such joy in the life that I live, regardless of the tragedies that have happened, because I have faith that my life is going to be excellent.

1:40:41My job. No, I'm going to do my quick fire round because I'm like, I just could cry. I could cry. You make me cry. You make me feel like I'm going to cry, like I'm in church all at once. It's very powerful. I love you. I love you. It's so good. It's so true. All right. What is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning? I pre. Really? Yeah. Every day? Every day. I love that. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed? I check my email. You do not. I do. You're not supposed to do that with the phone and the light in your face. It's literally slaying by my bed. It's like there.

1:41:14By the way, Ariana Huffington once gave me like a phone bed. Do you remember when she was doing this? Yes, of course. She's giving her friends fun beds. Because she's like, don't look at your phone. Yeah, don't put your tech like next to your face in your bed. Where's your fun bed? Girl, I don't know. It's in the freaking closet somewhere. I'm not, I'm probably doing it out. Sorry, Ariana. My bad. Sorry, girl. But you know what it is? Yeah, I check my email. I love that. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life? Ooh, total world domination. Yes. Yes, I want to be the greatest.

1:41:43Yeah, I feel like you're on the way. I have no doubt. Mm-hmm. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life? Oh, gosh. I think just the release of my trauma so that I can live a fully loving life. What is a book that changed your life? The Artist's Way. It's almost like a workbook. So it's going to tell you more about yourself than it is going to tell you what to do. Literally, buying it immediately. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't now? Ooh. I think maybe I really value title. Like the title that I was given. I don't care about that so much anymore.

1:42:28I have so many of them. I was going to say, stack them up. That's why. And they don't really matter. Power matters. I care more about power now than I care about the title. What's something that you value now that you didn't back then? Ooh, freedom. I was so chained to my career, you know? But now I'm free to do whatever the hell I want to do. I didn't know that that was an important thing it's amazing Boz I think you're the most most spectacular woman I'm so happy that you would spend a couple of hours thank you I love you you made my day I made this seat because of you you made my day you know what I mean I just wouldn't come anywhere now okay I know I'm just going places okay I know because you and I'm so proud of you thank you for what you're doing it means the world this microphone it's amazing it means the world thank you Boz

1:43:18if you're loving this podcast be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform while you're there give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend you'll be so grateful aspire with emma greed is presented by audycy i'm your host emma greed our executive producers are corinne gilead fisher derrick brown and me our executive producers from audycy are maddie sprung kaiser leah reese dennis asha saluja and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker.

1:43:55Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jonesworks and WNE, Maura Curran Josephina Francis Hilary Schuff Eric Donnelly Kate Hutchinson Rose Tim Meekle Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira If you have questions for me you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E That's Aspire A-S-P-I-R-E with Emma Greed Or you can submit a question to me on my website emmagreed.me