Creating Success Word by Word with Tracee Ellis Ross

24:49Do I feel safe? Do I feel seen? Do I feel sexy? Or do I feel like, oh my God, I didn't wear the right thing and that's not a good feeling. Do you feel like, like I've had people ask me, this is the worst thing to start with, with a guy on a date when they say, why are you still single? So my favorite thing to answer is, oh, because I'm broken. Oh, you didn't know? Like, what are you asking me? What are you asking? What are you asking me? What is the answer to that question? I don't know. I don't know. Cause I keep meeting jerks like you. What are you asking me? It's the wrong question. Okay. It's the wrong question.

25:25But it does give you some sort of indication of the way they're thinking about things. Right. So I think asking yourself the right questions, I have a friend who always says sometimes the questions are more important than the answers that you get so that you stay curious in the right way for yourself. But in terms of younger people or anybody, honestly, any woman, not just women, all people, even men, anyone, No matter who you date, what is it that you want? What is it that you want? And if you don't know, that's okay. Ask yourself the questions. Just keep living and you can figure it out later.

25:59Correct. Yes. And keep asking yourself those questions. The key is, do not go through your life asleep and then ask yourself, how did I end up here? Because you will end up somewhere. And if you don't like it and you're 35, it's a lot harder to make those changes. You can make them. You can make changes at any age. But if you just keep floating along where life takes you, without asking yourself what you like. And by the way, it's very hard to know what you like if you don't know who you are. And many people were raised in environments where they didn't have a chance to discover who they are. Many people have been in lives that are about surviving and they don't have time to ask themselves those questions.

26:37But you can carve out five minutes a night and say, what did I like about today? What worked today? Yeah, and how do I find more of that? Correct. What felt good today? And then, oh, that felt good? What felt good about it? And name it. And really understand that for yourself and go into that much detail because you will start to build the blocks of, oh, I'm a person who a six-person dinner is too many. Yes. Start small. What did I like about today? What felt good today? I had a good day. Why did I have a good day? Okay, it was when I was with that person. And then you might mistake it and think, that's a person I want to be around.

27:16What was it about that person? Was it you or was it them? and then you start to sort of build sort of a roster for yourself that can become a roadmap. For example, social media does not show us process. It doesn't show us how you got there. That's part of what you're doing in this podcast, right? Like what are the pieces? How do you think about life? Yes, yes. What are the questions that you do ask yourself? How do you discover that? How do you find that out? Like for example, I have learned there's things I'm really good at and there's things I'm not so great at. You need to know that. You need to know that.

27:50And my favorite is to remember, I never want to think I know everything. I want to remain teachable. One million percent. But you need that both in your business life and in your personal life. And they both mirror each other. That. You know, and I have built my business life the same way I have built my personal life. And I do want to say to people, it is not because of the abundance that I come from that I have had this space to do that. I have carved out the visioning time, the dreaming time, meditation, where I'm looking at things. You've clearly done a lot of work. It has been like chewing on ground glass.

28:31You say I'm comfortable in my skin. I was not. I was not. I have learned how to be comfortable in my skin. You've learned to be. But what strikes me about you, Tracy, is that you have an incredibly powerful mindset. And again, as I was reading so much and researching about you, one of the things I love is this sort of level of honesty that you seem to have with yourself. And I love that you said somewhere that, you know, it's okay to not feel good all the time. And when you're, I mean, first of all, when you're just a woman living your life, but certainly when you're a woman running a company and trying to build something and go after your dreams and fulfill your ambition, you have really shit days.

29:11You have really shitty moments. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and how you've got comfortable just like not always being fine. Well, it's just true. I think the difference for me is that I don't try and reach above it. I try and make space around it. Yes, I manifest and use my words clearly, but I am not a believer in the ask and it's given thing of positive thinking. I am a believer in a sense of wholeness for myself. So I make space for being afraid. I make space for bad days. I make space for pain. I make space for mistakes. And the key to that for me is, as I said, creating a space around it and acknowledging like, you feel like crap and we still got to get up and go, you know, and we have things to do.

30:02I mean, I've had to be my funniest on my worst days. I have a life where sometimes I have to be beautiful on days when I feel horrible and feel not pretty. And by the way, one of my biggest lessons on that was my stepfather passed away and we had a show. This was years ago. Thank you very much. But it was, we had a show to tape, Girlfriends. It was on a Tuesday. And we didn't, we let go of the studio audience, but I continued to show up. And I remember learning something in my cells that there is, for me, always a place and a part of me that is okay. And that I could lean to that person. That's not to say that I wasn't acknowledging that I was in shock, that I was frightened, that I was terrified about what it meant.

30:48I just didn't know what it meant in that moment. And I was deeply sad. But there was also a part of me that was okay. And that's different from the show must always go on. That's a very different thing. No, that's like an internal tool, like a place that you can get to that's like some type of inner strength. Yes. And so that was a life lesson for me. And I do talk about the hard moments, and I did this on the show as well, for a sense of transparency. Because I have to say that I haven't seen enough examples of that. And what the result has been is me feeling ashamed. Yeah, well, I mean, there aren't enough examples of that.

31:27But I wonder, like, how do you even show up authentically in the public eye without getting lost in the performance of it all? I'm softer. I allow those parts of me to call the people that can support me. I mean, I've had moments when I've gotten so overwhelmed in big, wonderful moments of my life. I remember crying on my kitchen floor and calling, I don't know if it was my sister or one of my best friends, and saying like, I don't, I like don't know if I'm built for this. Like maybe I just can't do it. Like I just, it's too much and it's too hard. And then I got it all out and I was like, all right, I'm going to go into hair and makeup.

32:06You know what I mean? Like, because it's like, that's the imposter syndrome, right? But give it space, give it voice, let it be heard by somebody who can hold it with love and love you. And love you when you can't love yourself. Yes. I don't, I'm not going to bring that to social media. I'm not looking for people I don't know to support me in that. But then you bring the part of you that is present and can hold it. You know, I had to do something recently and I have a text thread with friends. I'm like, guys, I'm not feeling up for this, but I am going to suit up and allow, you know, God to precede me in this moment and allow, if can I connect, this is what I always say to myself.

32:46I use the may eyes, by the way. Not the I am's. I call them the may I's. May I, I put may I before stuff because may I instead of I am feels like it honors where I am and invites me to where I want to go. And so you said you were purposeful with the language. Okay. So I'm like, may I lean into the part of me that is deeply grateful for this event that I'm going to, for this opportunity, for what it is celebrating, and may I let the soft parts of me stay as soft as they are as I walk into this from a place of gratitude. Or sometimes I'll do, may I be of service in this moment because I am not feeling up to anything.

33:29May I be of service and know that I'm there to be of service to what I'm going to do versus going there to get something for me. And those kinds of things helped me get through some moments, lots of moments in my life and my career that instead of being like, I'm okay, I'm totally fine. Because I find that when I do that, weird stuff comes out of my neck. No, it does. It really does. That you really don't want to be saying. No, no, no. It really does. And also it's dishonest with yourself. So this is actually a way of honoring your feelings, but still having the strength and being able to move through something.

34:02And then sometimes things don't go well. And by the way, and then all you do is you take accountability. I was crappy. That was not great. And I really wish I could have done that better. And I'm sorry. And I really, and by the way, the biggest amends and accountability is to be corrective in your behavior. And I will say that we, we all, all of us, so many of us know better, but don't do better. And that's okay. We're human beings, but the least you can do is keep trying. We can't be responsible for our first thought, but we can definitely be responsible for our second one. We can't always be responsible for our first action, but we can be for our second.

34:37I feel like I'm in Tracy Church. I don't know if I can ask the questions because I'm just like, I'm in learning mode. You really are the rich auntie of all of our dreams. Like I'm like, somebody give me a pencil. I'm like, really? Give me a pool and a cocktail and then I can give you the rich auntie vibes. You and I in a pool. Can we do this podcast? podcast. All of my podcasts in the book. In the pool? Episode two. Very good. Yeah. It's going to happen. Okay. So give me this. If you were giving, because I do really look at you as someone who's got such nuggets and so much great advice, but what kind of advice would you give to a woman that is trying to truly like design a life of her own?

35:18Get a journal, start with yourself and backtrack into, okay, let's start with today. How was it? How did I honor myself? Like start with some questions, right? How did I honor myself today? What went well today? What didn't go well today? What feels scary about what I'm feeling today? What do I have resentment towards about today? What do I have gratitude about towards today? And maybe do that for a short period of time of a week or two weeks, and then comb back through it with a pen and a highlighter. Circle the things that resonate as the whoppers, not the surface stuff, but like the whoppers.

36:02And then take those and put those on another piece of paper and be with those for a bit and see if you can start asking yourself questions from there. What is the feeling I want from my life? And what things in my life that already exist give me those feelings? And then is there a job I can build out of that? Is there a life I can build out of that? Is there a company I can build out of that? What do I do better than anybody else? What do I do that I get lost doing and can't help but to just keep doing it? Like somebody has to stop me from doing it. And how do I build something from there? Like what are those things in your life that allow your heart to sing and at the same time give yourself room that you might need to try stuff and then go, that didn't work, you know?

36:51And I think you really can do that at any age. You know, I say to people like - Any age. Any age. Any age. Like if you don't have enough joy in your life, what is joy for you? Yeah. What does that look like? You have to figure, you have to know. You gotta know. You have to figure these things out. I mean, being, first of all, for my whole life, I've had a diary. I still have the very embarrassing diaries from like 12 years old. The ones with the locks on them? Yeah, with the locks. Mine is a lock on it. It does. And big bubble writing. like, you know, three words on a line type thing. But still to this day, I journal and it is one of the most powerful tools for figuring out my own stuff.

37:24And it's different than typing. No, it has to be. It's got to be written. Because it's got to come out. Like it has to come out and through you. And then when you go back. But I love that as a piece of advice for starting to understand what you need and what you want and who you are and having that ability to go back and see how you've changed and what stayed the same and what you need to do. It's actually a magnificent piece of advice. It's a really good tool. Yeah. So another piece that I do is, for example, when you get like overwhelmed and anxious and something's upsetting you, right? No. Never heard of that?

38:01Okay. Well, sometimes that happens to me, Emma. So I will do my list, right? I resent. I'm afraid. Whatever those things are. Get it all out. And I do the circles of the deep ones, the ones that are like the big ones. Then I create a prayer out of that. Oh, you do? I take those words and I try and flip them. What is the opposite of that? What is the feeling that that is not giving me that I want? And then I create a prayer that is, may I remember that I am. So I'm afraid I will never find partnership. Say that's there, right? May I remember that I am worthy of belonging and connection. I don't know.

38:50And then whenever that anxiety comes up, that's what I say. So I end up with these prayers that match that particular hurt in my soul. And then next, I'll look back because sometimes I have a little card. I'll look back and I'll be like, oh, that got solved. At least it got healed for a bit. You know what have to go back to it, but that anxiety, that part of me, that hurt in that little special little nook that's hidden in my heart has something that answers it specifically. I really want people to take that in because as a mom and I have two girls, that is something I'm going to teach them because to be able to create that for yourself, to take that which is bothering you and that which is weighing you down and to be able to flip it and then use what you've created as a way of reinforcing.

39:44I mean, that's magical. That is everyone who is listening to this right now needs to rewind that bit and write it down and do that for themselves. And I'm going to give you that same example, if I may, from a physical standpoint. So I have specific injuries. At 52, you'll find that the weird, funny ways that you've been sitting your whole life creates something fascinating in your body, right? So I have specific injuries. Now, if somebody from a general place looked at my body, they would be like, okay, so you need to strengthen your hamstrings. But here's the thing. It's just this part of my hamstring, right?

40:19So I have somebody that has helped me come up with exercises for a specific part of the hamstring. And it's designed for me. Now that's something, and the only reason I tell that story is because if you take it out of the emotional and you put it into something physical. Makes total sense. Sometimes it's easier for people to understand. Strengthening my entire hamstring is not the issue. It's this little bit that, by the way, most people when watching me move wouldn't even think I had a weak hamstring. But specificity really matters. And it's somebody, so you know yourself better than anybody else.

40:53If you can just listen, really, and give yourself the tool to get to those places, you will have an unbreakable, unshakable foundation for your life that is built on you. Heaven. Heaven. Thank you for that.

41:13You know, being a working mom during cold and flu season as well, let's just say it's a full contact sport. Between early morning emails, school drop-offs, and trying to keep everyone fed and happy, the last thing I want is a sore chap nose from constantly wiping. Usually the moment I've got an important call or a meeting. That's why I love Kleenex lotion facial tissues. These aren't just your average tissues. They actually care for your skin. Made with coconut oil and aloe, they help soothe, moisturize and protect my skin even when I'm wiping all day. It's such a small thing, but having the right products can really make a difference when you're under the weather or when your little ones are.

41:54I try to make self-care part of my daily routine. Morning skincare, a little quiet time with my coffee, and yes, using Kleenex lotion tissues when the sniffles hit. There's something so comforting about reaching for tissues that actually feels gentle and nourishing. It's one of those little moments of care that keep me feeling supported through a long day. Honestly, I've noticed the difference. During peak cold and flu season, when everyone in the house seems to be sneezing, coughing, or sniffling, my skin stays soft and my nose doesn't feel raw. My kids notice it too. They even ask for the nice tissues, the Kleenex, when they're feeling under the weather because they're just that gentle.

42:35It's one of those things that quietly makes life a little easier. And it's not just about function. Kleenex lotion tissues go beyond that. They're soothing, they're moisturizing, and honestly, they make me feel a little more prepared and a little more cared for. Even on days where I'm juggling calls, meetings and homework help, I can face the world looking camera ready because I haven't had to sacrifice my skin to get through the stipples. So whether it's a busy morning at home, a long day at the office or just trying to survive the back-to-back sick days, Kleenex lotion tissues are part of my routine.

43:11They help me and my family feel cared for, nourished and ready to face whatever cold and flu season throws at us. You can't predict sick days but with Kleenex lotion tissues, you can be prepared for them. But whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Today's segment is brought to you by Bumble, the go-to dating app for finding love. You all know that I'm a big believer in building things that last in business, in family, but especially in relationships. And the truth is dating can feel totally overwhelming. That's why I've noticed so many of my friends and people in my circle turning to Bumble. They've been listening to their community and making changes that actually build trust.

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44:53I really want to talk to you about leadership and business. I have been using the heat protector and I love it. Amazing. First of all, I'm very happy that you now stock in the UK because I was the person from Sephora. I was the one that told you. I was like, girl, we've got it. I was like, guys, it's in boots. I think they just wanted me to buy it, basically. I was just fooled into the whole thing. But it's really impressive. And yesterday I did see that you've expanded the brand. So outside of hair into body. So the reason I called it pattern beauty and not pattern hair was because I always knew it was on the roadmap.

45:25Yes. Did you do a packaging change or is that just for that? For body. Okay. For body. Yes. For body. So it's still bold and beautiful, but it is, it has its own category, its own color. Yeah. So obviously you were an actress that took this leap into business. Yeah. And I know for so many people, like doing that can feel so frightening and so scary. So what gave you the idea that you could be as successful as you've been? Oh, I had no idea I was going to be successful. No, you didn't? No, no, no, no, no. So you didn't take that. You weren't like, okay, this is going to be a thing and it's going to be great.

45:57It is going to be what it is. Not at all. Let me be clear. Yes, I was an actress and that was my window in to have certain conversations, but I am a consumer. And that's what my pathway to being a business, entrepreneur, business builder was as a consumer. And what I knew as a consumer and a beauty consumer and a shopper in general was that my entire childhood and life around hair products, there was something missing. And I kept thinking, I didn't know it was gonna be me, but I kept thinking, why is the same products that my mom and my grandma, my aunts, like why is it the same products? Why is it the same few products in the corner?

46:34Why is there nothing new? Why can I not find products that are actually for the way my hair grows out of my head and are not trying to straighten my hair? Why are the products that are for curly, they say for curly hair, don't work on me? So I kept saying, oh my God, it would be so amazing. And that was when my mom had that conversation. She was like, please stop buying products. You can't keep buying all these expensive products. This is insane. And that was another gripe I had. I had so much hair, you would buy this little thing for$45 and it was two shampoos, two conditioners in there. The shampoo was always bigger than the conditioner, but I used more conditioner than I used shampoo.

47:07These were all the things I was like, why has no one thought of this? I don't understand. Why do they say put a dime size when I need a handful? Like, I just never understood. And so I kept thinking, my God, wouldn't it be amazing if someone had a line of products that look beautiful and I could use the whole line on my hair and it looked beautiful on my counter? Blah, blah, blah. Wouldn't it be amazing if someone actually made enough conditioner that it was more conditioner than shampoo? How long did you say this for? This was my entire growing up. And then for 10 years, I wrote my first hair care brand pitch when Girlfriends finished.

47:36Oh, and you launched it when? It took 11 years to get on shelves. First of all, we should say that story more because everybody imagines it's like an overnight success. No, no, no, no, no. It took you, Tracy Ellis Ross. 10 years. 10 years. And I want to be very clear with people. This was 10 years and nobody thought it should be coming from me. This was before celebrity brands existed. I'm the founder. So that is often different, whereas people bring somebody in. But Pattern was built as a consumer who saw a blank space in the industry that just was not being serviced. And during the process, and I will, this is practical for you, this is a great one to talk about here.

48:18I learned a process around no's that has been instrumental in my entire life, but particularly as a business builder. Because you were told no. So many times in so many different ways. I will not bore you with all the stories, but I'll tell you some of the headlines that were really interesting. So I wrote my first hair care brand pitch. In that brand pitch, I had the original list of the SKUs that became the 11 SKUs. And the clear indication I had was that I wanted to, at the time, this is the way I said it, and now the way I say it. I wanted to shift the paradigm for how hair care was marketed to textured hair and Black people.

48:53Didn't understand it. Marketing is based on telling the consumer they have a problem and shaming them into buying something they need to fix the problem. Number one, I don't think that works as a consumer. I am a consumer. I shop the most when I feel good. That's number one. Number two, the other piece of it, as a Black consumer and someone with textured hair, inherently that is problematic from a systemic point of view to tell me that my hair is a problem because it's not. I wanted to build a company that was based on the celebration of Black Beauty. Now, I don't believe that hair has a race or a gender, but textured hair is specific and it needs more hydration.

49:33And there was never a part of you that just thought, I'm just going to create a hair care brand and make it for as many customers as possible. No. No. There's enough. There is, I need to feel this. Yes. Yes. And I need to develop a product. And by the way, a lot of people, some of the no's were put your name and the name of the company on formulas that exist. I said, no. I need to find manufacturers that can work with me and chemists that can work with me to solve for the problems that I have always experienced in all of the products that I've used. So give me the thing. So you go, let's start at year one.

50:05You write the pitch. You say it needs to be this amount of products. My manager reads it and says, we should do a line of wigs. Okay. Thank you. Helpful. Then another manager reads it and said, we should do a hair TV show. No. Now, these were the only people I have access to, right? I was not, I don't come from a family of business people that are in the corporate world. I don't know how you turn an idea into goop. Didn't know any of those things. So then I went to another person who made me cry and was like, why would you, an actress, you need to partner with a hairstylist? I was like, no, I don't.

50:39Because hairstylists have not known how to do my hair. And you cried? I did. You cried with a no? She was very angry with me the way she said it. She was like, she shamed me. But the thing that was interesting to me was I also, in that no, got clear. So I'm going to tell you a couple of the stories and tell you what my experience is and how I use no's. So she was like, why you should partner with a hairstylist. I said, no, because the majority of hairstylists don't know how to do my hair. They know how to make my hair straight. They know how to braid my hair. They know how to do other things. They don't know how to do my hair the way I do my hair when it's big.

51:11and big. But what I learned is the no, take it in, have the feelings, be disappointed, or whatever that is. And then once the feelings have subsided and you can actually take it in and learn from it, ask yourself some questions. Do you agree? Is the no because you agree? Maybe it is. Maybe your idea isn't good enough. Do you not agree? Okay. If you don't agree, why do you think they said no? Is it because they're the wrong person? Or is it because you didn't express yourself in a clear way that was effective to get what you wanted across? And when you answer those questions, you get to get more clear each time.

51:53So every no brought me closer. By the time I found my retail partners - And I'm imagining, Tracy, some of those no's would have also been useful. Some of those no's were right and you would have learned from them, right? And been like, okay, Like maybe I haven't thought about this thing. Correct. And some of those no's were because culturally, people did not understand the importance, the buying power and the beauty of textured hair. Sometimes that meant that's what I had to express more clearly and teach people. Was it experiential teaching or was it data? I don't know. I had to do that. So we went through all these different phases.

52:32And by the way, the other thing with pattern is I got my retail partners first before I had business partners. Oh, you did? Correct. So you had Sephora on board? No, Ulta. Ulta. It was Ulta from day one. Oh, wow. Wow, it's so funny because maybe it's just where I find you, but yeah. And Priya and Artemis were in the original meeting I had with the two of them. I flew myself to their offices and I ended up starting with Ulta. And now I'm at Sephora as well. Well, now you're in a lot of places. Yes, now we have 11 retail partners. Because, I mean, for people that don't know, I mean, patent has been, it was a revelation in the industry.

53:16And I mean, I say this, I love the product. I use the product. I've gifted the product. I really think it is such an incredible brand proposition that you had. And I think that you did an amazing job of bringing that to life. But I was really interested in the fact that you self-funded this brand, right? but you decided that, oh, I thought you self-funded. You raised money. I found business partners and they are - Oh, wait a minute. This is not what, I thought that you went out and you raised them. You used your own money. No, and I - So right from the get-go. And I purposely did not. So someone told me early on not to use my own money.

53:52I will also tell you, I'm a black actress in Hollywood. I did not have that money to use. Well, that is not the idea that everybody has of you. I would imagine that you could just, you know, start a brand and you'd be fine. You just take your own money and do that? No. So, and do you regret that decision? Not at all. No. I'm a majority owner. Oh, so you're still a majority. You just did a great deal. Okay. So somebody else put the money up for it, but you still own the majority. Maybe that's where I got it wrong. I have full creative control. Amazing. And I am majority owner of the company. The difference is I brought this fully fledged idea to my business partners.

54:27And when I brought it to them, I already had retail partners. Right. Yeah. So you were like, here's the thing. This is how we're going to sell it. All I need is actually the capital to make it operational. Yeah, correct. Amazing. Really amazing. And how's it going for you? It's fantastic. It's going pretty well. I mean, you know, I really love being a founder and a CEO, and I have my arms wrapped completely around marketing, PD, narrative, you know, just all of it. And your partners are working on operations predominantly? Yeah, I have a co-CEO that oversees all operations. And my business partners, there's a lot of shared services with them.

55:09HR is there, but like mostly we are in-house, 47 in-house employees. That's incredible. What have you learned about leadership? Because I guess it's so different from the world, the entertainment world that you come from. Is it not? No. In what ways are they similar? So it's very similar to being a producer. I think being a CEO, it's about team building. It is about infrastructure and protocols and strategy and sort of working effectively and efficiently. Where are your strengths? My strengths are in storytelling, creativity, thinking outside the box. I find data to be frustrating. I know a lot of people, it's incredibly important, particularly in operations, etc.

55:48But data tells you a snapshot of the past. And I'm a visioner for future. So I don't care. You know what I mean? I have gut instinct and that's where I lead. So I would say creativity, marketing, storytelling, visuals, language. This is my forte. I wonder how you think about the idea of your creative vision with the realities of manufacturing and distribution and logistics and all of those other things. Is it just about being organized for you? Absolutely. I mean, it's the same thing. You know, I give 85 % of my weeks to pattern and 85 % of my week to the rest of my career. I mean, I have a full on empire.

56:33Like I have production deals and TV shows in development and a full press world in life and speaking engagements. How much are you working, Tracy? I work 70 the week. Seven days a week. Absolutely. Saturday, Sunday, you are working. I'm always working, yeah. You're doing something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you happy working that much? Absolutely. It's what I love. I love that you say that. And I also love that you're honest about working seven days a week. I get a lot of shit for talking about work-life balance. And so I'm going to ask you the question that every journalist asks me all the time. What about work-life balance, Tracy?

57:06It's harmony. It's harmony. I mean, sometimes it's full out one thing and sometimes it's full out something else. And then you find a balance. The only person that can say no is me. And so I do that. And I also have a team that protects my time. But I thrive working hard and I have a great personal life. It's fine. It's all fine. Because it's up to you to say no. It's all up to me. And being organized is the key and disciplined. I am disciplined. I do my work. Like you're not going to send me something for approval that I haven't read and approved. Like it's not going to, oops. Yeah. Wash over you.

57:42No. You're in it. I'm in it. I'm in it. And I learned that from my mom, by the way. It's a very important thing that everyone has to learn. Read your contracts. Don't give away power of attorney. Never give away power of attorney. You should say it. And let me just, and by the way, a lot of people don't know what that means. No, but why don't you explain it? Don't let somebody else sign your checks. Absolutely. Know where your money is going. And when it's going out, it needs to be of your volition. So even if, and by the way, this is something that I do, you can pay your agents. They pay for you.

58:12So if they take a percent, they don't have to take it and then give it to you. Give you the check for the money that you made. And then you figure out who you're paying. And then you figure out how much you pay to who it's going to. Yes, because at the end of the day, you need to be in control of every cost. Like every single thing that you earn is yours and where it goes, you should decide. And I also have to say, I am not a micromanager. I will micromanage if I don't trust what's going on. And then I want to know everything and I want to figure out why it's not going right. But I'm not a micromanager.

58:42That's about hiring teams. You hire and bring wonderful people in that that's their expertise. That's not my job. That's not what I do for, you know, that's not what I do great at or what I have experience in. But if left to my own devices and I don't think it's happening appropriately, I will start to get in there. I like people to bring themselves to work. That's the kind of leader I am. I work really hard. And if you want to know the truth, most people that we think on Instagram, oh, they just got it that way. if you've been in the industry for a long period of time, you work hard. You know.

59:17Period. You have to. You have to. It's just the way it's, no one else is going to do it. Yeah. No, and it unravels really quickly. Like, you know, those people that are outsourcing, that are not really doing the work, that are not putting the time in because it doesn't last. No. Like, that's it. When you have a career for all of the time and the level of success you have, it comes from one, well, a couple of things. You have to have the talent, but you have really got to work it. Yeah. And I also, So another philosophy for me is most emergencies involve an ambulance. We ain't saving lives over here.

59:50No. And time sensitive is different from emergency or urgent. And I like to go slow and steady. I always tell people, if you need an answer right now, it's probably going to be a no. I need to sleep on it. I mean, I have gut responses, but like slow and steady. Slow and steady. I would prefer to do less and do it right than do more and do it sloppy. End of. Yeah. That's a great philosophy. Yeah. Again, another thing that shows me how much you know about yourself, clearly. I want to know if you have a point of view, because I think that we've seen quite a lot recently, like a number of brands that have failed and gone down, especially when they serve a very specific community.

1:00:26And I wanted to see if you have a point of view on why so many brands fail. I think we have to do better as an industry. I think there are systemic roadblocks, and I think it requires a broader approach to support in understanding how you take a unique value proposition and how you scale that, what that would look like. There's some creativity in making sense of that with a brand. If we're starting with this broad spectrum, right, where is the growth? Is the growth from expanded retail partners? Is the growth from other products? If so, what are the other products that maintain your initial value proposition, right?

1:01:09And I don't know all the machinations of that in the case of this. I think it is very hard to maintain a brand. This is a very crowded market. Beauty, everything's a crowded market now. And everything filters through social media. And people are quick to make decisions about what things mean or don't mean or whatever those are. People, consumers are way, it's not that they're smarter than they used to be. They have access to more information than they used to have. So much choice. So there's so much choice. There's so much you can know about a brand. There's so much, there's apps you can see what product, what, you know, is in the formulas, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:01:43There's all the things, right? So I think the other piece of it, which is something I talk about, not just in the beauty space, but in Hollywood and everywhere, there is a cultural currency that is not accounted for in dollar numbers that we must as industry do a better job of counting. For example, a very exclusive brand that serves a specific customer might not bring in the same dollar amount, but it is bringing a new customer into your store that is accounting for an overflow, a halo effect in your business that is either just serving you culturally or serving you financially in a larger way that you're not accounting to that brand.

1:02:27And people need to have a better sense of that and really support that in a different way. I think there's nuance to the way that we need everybody to think about. And that isn't like the full picture isn't always taken into consideration. Is it something that you talk about at Patton, like how you can future-proof yourself in terms of like stagnating growth or thinking about some of these brands that don't get to where they need to be? Yes, we talk about it, but not from that perspective. I think for me, the key is how do we want to grow and being clear about that? Because there's many ways to scale a business, right?

1:03:02And it's sort of the question of what do you want from it at the end? So are you scaling it just to sell it? Are you scaling it? What is the reasoning, right? So for me, I always go back to the eye on the prize. Like what is the initial value proposition and the mission and the vision of the brand? So if ours is to exceed the needs of this community, right? How do you continue circling back to that? This, you know, hair care, body care, this is not lip gloss. People don't, you don't change your lip gloss out every two weeks. You don't like, I want to buy a different flavor. I don't want, you know what I mean?

1:03:36Like I want peptides. Now I want, now I want melon. You know what I mean? Like that's not, that's not what the business is. This is something that becomes timeless and a part of your regular routine. Wash day is for some people once a month as opposed to every day. So how do you account for that in terms of the pace of the scaling? And do you want to scale because you're expanding retail partners? Do you want to scale because of product? Do you want to scale because of new product? So these are questions that you have to ask as you grow a brand and then create a strategy that backs you into that and builds you towards that and also have enough space to be nimble and go, well, that didn't work.

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1:06:53Has your idea of what success looks like or what you'd eventually like to happen with pattern changed from when you launched to now? Yeah, because originally the dream was to launch. Let's get this 10-year dream out there. You know what I mean? So part of what's happened recently is I'm like, okay, so now what are the options? And that's part of what I'm in the growth process of. What are the choices and how do you keep those choices open? What does that look like? One of the things we did and have done recently that was really important to me is the core of the brand. If you just keep launching new, how do you keep the core of the brand?

1:07:34So going back and relaunching products that are the heroes. Ask why I work seven days a week, because these are the things I lay around dreaming about, thinking of, talking through, talking through with this person, talking through with somebody that's not on the team, but whatever that may be is incredibly important and a part of the journey. Are you a risk taker? Risk? Yeah. I'm kind of risk averse. You are? Yeah. You didn't see this as taking a risk when you started it? I didn't. It feels more risky now because there's more to lose, right? There was nothing to lose then. But no, I'm not a gambler.

1:08:09I'd prefer to shop than gamble. Do you know what I mean? I don't want the risk of I might lose money. I would prefer to just spend the money on something I know I want. Right? I love that you say that. That's my— I mean, listen, I'm a risky biscuit over here. I'm a gamb— I'm just a gambler in my heart. Are you a gambler? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm not a gambler. Yeah, I'm a gambler. I will get— I'll put it all on red. You know, that's me. I'm slow and steady. No. I'm slow and steady. I am like, you know, fast and an ass.

1:08:37That's hilarious. But again, that goes back to knowing yourself, right? You have to know yourself. So I feel like you and I both have built great, successful lives that match who we are. Yes. And so it's a matter of listening. Like if I tried your model, it wouldn't work for me. Exactly. And that's why I say like, even on the travel show, I'm like, this is not prescriptive. This is my version. This is you. What's your version? Yes, this is you. That means, I mean, it says to me that you probably have had to get very comfortable with the idea of saying no. Oh God, yeah. And you find you're like, I can say no.

1:09:10Oh yeah, I feel that number one, no is a complete sentence. And number two, a small no is a big yes. And for me, if you look at a wine bottle and you don't know better, you would think, why didn't they fill this up? Because that air is what makes space for the wine to be the wine, right? That air is something that I need in order to get the best of me to have space and room to be creative, to vision, to think, to have downtime, to process, to integrate. That's how the best of me comes forward. And when I don't protect that air, I'm not at my best. Forget about it. What's the boldest no that you've ever said?

1:09:52I would say a big bold no is when I was building pattern and people were pushing for me to make it for everybody, for all hair types. And I said, no. Do you know that something like 75 % of the global population has textured hair? What? 75 % of the global population. No, nobody knows that. This is a statistic that recently was given to me. I'm feeling better and better about Patton by the minute. When are we going public? By the shift. Watch, I'm totally wrong. But you know what? Even if I'm wrong, it works for me and it's going to build me in the right direction. We're going to be purposeful with our words.

1:10:36We're going to speak it into existence. My head's getting curlier by the second. But the very thought of 75%. It's very possible. Wow. That is a total addressable market we can deal with, Tracey Ellis Ross. I really want to talk to you about your show. Do it. It's so good. Thank you. It's so good. You're season two of this show. We have just been picked up for season two. How nice is that? It's really lovely. This is just like you. Yeah, it's so me. And also just what a delight to see how people received it. I was, I don't know what I thought people would get. I know what I wanted it to be, but I was very moved.

1:11:15I've been very moved by how moved people are. Tell me how, because I know what I've seen from the outside, but I'd love to know what people bring to you about it. So it seemed like, I was like, this will be a cute show and I'm kind of watching it to see what you're wearing. And then I was like, oh, this is about so much more. than that. Yeah, it really, it is less of a travel show. The travel is the vehicle for which I'm sharing. Can you be yourself by yourself out in the world? And can you be responsible for your own happiness and, and give yourself the space to be in whatever that looks like for you.

1:11:51And solo travel looks different for, there's all different kinds of solo travel. For me, it's about integrating and being with myself and spending time quietly, letting my heart do what it wants to do. What resonated, what I saw resonating with people was this sense of permission to be okay being where you are. And that you don't have to wait to go find joy and do the things that you love and experience things. And that doesn't even have to be with travel, that it's just, you can go and do those things. I think that that's what came through, that you were giving people license, permission in a very different way than how we've been or how we're thinking at the moment.

1:12:32Like there was this lovely comment that you said, you described the show as giving yourself permission to be with yourself in the most delicious way. And I was like, oh, that's like, that's so nice. Because so many people would fear going on a vacation alone and having to spend time with their thoughts and be with themselves. And when you're traveling, you know, things are heightened. So the good stuff and the bad stuff. But also if you're not traveling, I think the show also gave the sense of it is okay to change your mind. It's okay to say no to something. It's okay to do what you want to do, even if that's not what other people want to do.

1:13:08It's okay to put on your pretty clothes for you. It's okay if you're feeling lonely. It's okay if your life doesn't look the way you thought it was supposed to, or other people tell you it's supposed to, you can still find joy and a sort of transcendent sense of deliciousness for yourself. And I think that's what I know is my experience, but I was so deeply moved by how that resonated with people and that my transparency around that came across in the way I intended. No, and I feel it felt very intentional. I was speaking to a friend about it last night and she was like, I would never do that though.

1:13:44And I was like, you wouldn't? Like that is like so easy for me. In fact, I love to be alone with like, you know, when you have four kids and a husband, I'm like, sign me up. I want to go alone. That's exactly right. So a lot of people, I think from their lives, it's so much happening all the time. They go away to get their space. Some people go to meet people. Some people go for a sense of adventure. But what do you say to people that are just afraid to even do that for themselves, to go alone? Oh, I have many things to say. First of all, if it's something you want to do, but you're afraid to do it.

1:14:13That's it. I would say start with going to dinner by yourself. Start on a Wednesday night at six o 'clock when the restaurant opens. If you can do that. Just like easing them in. Correct. Because I know you're a Friday at eight in the best restaurant in town. Correct. I literally have seen you and I'm like, she's eating alone, so I'm just going to let her do that. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't want anyone to just come and follow her. Then you go for a Friday night at eight o 'clock when everybody is there and the restaurant is our way in here. And if you can do that, then the other thing I tell people is you can try going on a vacation that you already have planned and then tack on some days by yourself.

1:14:50That's how I've done it. Which is great. Or go somewhere you've been with other people and try going by yourself. Oh, you have really nailed this down. The way that I do it is to get somewhere early before the rest of my family join, or I stay for a few days after. That for me just feels totally fine. I'm almost like setting it up for them. Yes. You know. Yeah, yeah. Just trying it out here before you lot. Making sure it's okay. Exactly. Yeah. Making sure you lot be comfortable. I'm doing service, you guys. For the family. Exactly. For sake, why don't they understand why I don't want to be with them?

1:15:29That's amazing. But I'm very happy that this show has got a second season because it feels like it really... Where will I go? Yeah, where will you go? I don't know. I have ideas. The world is your oyster. It is my oyster. Do you get to choose? Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. Wow. I'm so excited. And you're packing all those thousands of bags. Oh my God. I feel like one episode, maybe we should try like, what happens if I just do a carry-on? I think I would literally - Zaster. You'd be lending things for people. Knocking on the door. Excuse me. Excuse me. I saw you wearing something yesterday. It would be an entire episode about shopping.

1:16:01But in all honesty, I say this - What happens when you lose your bags? Has that happened to you? Oh yeah, I can have every - You have a little carry-on. I could live out of that carry-on if I had to. My husband does that. I have nothing of use in the carry-on. Really? Now think, like 27 lip balms, not even a pair of knickers. Like nothing to take me through to the neck. That is so funny. My carry-on is so heavy, I cannot get it up. That Ramoah bag, it's like a rock. It's like just a rock. It's so stuffed. I can barely close it. I have like mountains of books, mountains of beauty products, and nothing else.

1:16:36No, I literally, it's like I could really, if I had to, I'd look cute for a week. That, for a week? No. I swear to God. From a carry-on. I swear. You need to do a lesson. You need to put that on the social. I will. And by the way, so what I do is I lay everything out for packing, right? And then I sit there and I go, what would be the one pair of shoes, the bathing suit, and one look, two look, three look, that can roll up teeny and be great. and I could wear them in a whole bunch of different ways. And one bathing suit and then the cosmetics that, I mean, I literally could probably do it. Hence the Alia Thon.

1:17:14I'm telling you. And by the way, do you know how small this goes? Yeah, it goes with everything. Yeah. No, no, I see it. I literally am looking at it right now. That shoe goes with everything. Leopard is a neutral. I mean, it's not a joke. I pack for beauty and disaster. All the things. Yes, all the things. I'm prepared. Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about your legacy, because I know that you had this epic 50th birthday party where you were in full celebration of your life. I did, I had three outfit changes. I was going to ask you how many outfits. I knew that there were multiple changes.

1:17:47She was like, I'll put it on. It was amazing. All the things. God, it was amazing. I have absolutely no doubt. I want to know if your life was a movie, what message would you want it to send out there? May you be comfortable in your skin, find what makes your heart sing, discover your purpose, and be of service. That would be the message I want. I think that you're giving that. Yeah? Yeah. All right. Do we don't need a movie? I don't think we should do it. I'm not going night in there. Anyway. Next. Next. I think that's so amazing though that you have, like that you can come out with that and that's, that's who you are.

1:18:26I love that. Like you've been doing a really good job living up to your own. That's what happens when you don't have kids. You can actually like live it out. You know what I mean? I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. I'm doing this. Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm in control. Is it working? Is it working? Literally. Literally. What advice would you give your younger self? Oh, hang in there, honey. Oh. Hang in there, honey. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be okay. Would you go back? Would you go back to 27? Fuck no. Everyone says that. We need to do a compilation of me asking everyone. They go, fuck. like him.

1:19:01Fuck. No. Never. No. Never. I would not. Not for all the skin and the energy. Listen. But what's crazy is I didn't even appreciate it. I know. You don't know. My skin was just tight like drum all over my body. You didn't know. And I didn't even know. And I was busy complaining. Oh, I can't wait. Shush. Shush, sweet little girl. Listen, no, I would not go back. I can tell you that it only gets better. It only gets better. The physicality is fascinating. I wouldn't even say it's hard. It's just fascinating, sometimes humorous, sometimes alarming, but absolutely fine. It's just different. But emotionally and spiritually, I mean, it is just delicious up here.

1:19:46It's delicious. And apparently, according to those in their 60s and 70s, it only gets better. Is that what your mother says? My mom says I have friends in their 60s, I have friends in their 70s, and they would not turn back the time. No. No. I don't think anyone wants to turn back the time. It's just like it's not a good use. But yet we have a culture that's obsessed with youth. I know. I just think, I mean, our culture is obsessed with a lot of things that just aren't that good. Just don't make sense. I totally agree. They're stupid. I'm just like, you guys, come on. I'm like, what? Like, no.

1:20:20No. That is very funny. Don't you think? Totally true. They're stupid. Like, I don't even know what to say to them anymore. I ignore that. And you think about women and where we are right now, where we are in the kind of business landscape and leadership, where we are as, you know, just people evolving. I want to understand, like, what gives you hope? Like, how are you thinking about women now? I just look around and I, women just give me hope. There's so many different versions of it. I see so many different kinds of women, so many different ways that women are defying what systemically is prescribed, you know, defying cultural norms in a way that is the norm, but somehow we still keep thinking the other thing is the norm.

1:21:12expanding real estate in the ways, and I don't mean physical, metaphoric real estate, around what we can be and have and how we can be and have, you know? And to me, the how is what's kind of magical. I just see women constantly redefining how you do stuff, how to be a leader. You know, I look at it all the time and I'm just like, you guys still call that leadership? Like, what is that? That's not leadership. That's embarrassing. That's embarrassing. That should not be called leadership because I see this sense of shared leadership that benefits the collective, not just you. It's not just a power grab, but instead is like a culture expansion, you know?

1:22:00And so that to me, I wouldn't even know how to name it other than when you see it, call it out and thank those people. Oh, yeah. You know? We have to thank those people. Yeah. You're one of those people. Well, so are you. Well, thank you. I'll take it. But you really are. All right, this is rapid fire. We're going to be quick. Do it. First thing you do when you wake up? Scrape my tongue. You're a tongue scraper. Absolutely. Is that the one thing I don't do? I mean, I'm not an animal. Are you an animal? I'm an animal. I only started flossing like two minutes ago. I'm English animal. Mouth hygiene is not our thing.

1:22:32Okay? Just going to say. I scrape my tongue. I'm massively generalizing for all English people. It's either scrape my tongue or I roll off the... It's just so gross. That's why you want to take it off your tongue. But the other thing I will say is sometimes I also, it depends on which comes first, slide down the side of my bed and say my prayers. Oh, okay. Hi, God, it's me. Exactly. Last thing you do before you go to bed. Oh, I check my phone. Oh, Tracy. I know, very bad. Very bad. Terrible. It's terrible. I know, I know. At least it gets turned properly off. before bed. That's big. That's a big thing.

1:23:09There's no on. It's totally off. All right. Off, but there. Yeah. And I never, if I get up to use the ladies' room, I do not pick it up and turn it on. Yes. During the night. But people do that. You must not. People do that. I do not do that. For sure. One solo trip that everyone should take at least once. Oh. To whatever your dream spot is. You got to do it. Yeah. You got to do it. You got to do it. A book or a film that changed your perspective on life. when things fall apart, payment children. Yeah. Has to be the one. Yeah. Something that you valued 10 years ago that you don't value now? A flat tummy.

1:23:48That's a great answer. All right, then I'm going to ask you it, Viversa. What is something that you value now that you didn't value 10 years ago? Sleep. Sleep. Ain't that the truth?

1:24:07If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you love with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reece-Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black.

1:24:42Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado, and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

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