How People-Pleasing, Perfectionism, And Burnout Are Actually Trauma Responses With Dr. Thema

27:24How do we make? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that difficulty trusting, when people have broken our trust, then we can enter into new places with that. We call it hypervigilance. Yes. Right? And so we are looking for the dishonor, looking for the disrespect because we don't want to be caught by surprise. Right? A lot of people don't realize that something like that is a big problem in their life. Because they're like, well, that's on me. I have a problem trusting people. But that will stand in the way of your best relationships, your greatest, you know, triumphs, like whatever it might be. Yes. One of the things I see sometimes when people come in for therapy, they're unpartnered and like the other parts of their life are successful.

28:04And they're like, I really, you know, want to meet someone. and then they'll describe for me like their process with people. And, ah, it's just like eliminate, eliminate, eliminate, because they're looking for like what's wrong. They're looking, and it's not that you want to accept just anything, but there's a difference between standards and like being paranoid. Yes. Right. Yeah. Some of us are standing in our way. Well, and if you want to be in a happy, loving relationship, there's an element of you have to be open. You have to be fallible. You have to know what's wrong with you so that you can meet somebody where they are.

28:41That's right. Because that issue of intimacy is like being known, being seen, being valued. And if I'm perpetually performing, then there's no intimacy because I'm not letting anyone in. So it's risky. And understandably, many people are afraid to take the risk, but the cost is then I end up isolated even though I desire connection. So if you had to break it down, what are the three questions that we could ask ourselves to identify our trauma? I would say those, the three pieces would be how, if you didn't tell me how you felt about yourself, how would your care of yourself tell me how you feel about yourself?

29:25Because a lot of people say, I love myself. I love myself. But do you take care of yourself? Right. Exactly. Right. So I look at your level of care to indicate, and that will include your boundary setting. It'll include your rest. It'll include your nutrition. Right. Can I say like, I'm eating this because I love myself. I'm eating this because I want to live. Right. So how do I take care of myself or am I more prone to self-neglect, self-erasure, self-abandonment. If I neglect myself, often that is unhealed trauma, right? A second one is around that emotional regulation. If I either get overwhelmed by my emotions on a regular basis, or some emotions are not acceptable to me, then I want to ask, like, where did that come from?

30:16And so I'll give by way of example, this isn't a traumatic incident, but it's messaging, socializing. You know, I grew up in a family, in a community where people would often say to kids, fix your face. Right? All the time. I had a Jamaican granddad that said, pick up your lip. And the message is like, you can't look distraught. How you look. Yeah, it's kind of distraught. You got to look pleasant, grateful. And so now we're adults who mask. So then literally in therapy, if I say to someone, oh, that sounds like that upset you. No, it didn't. I don't care because we're not allowed to feel it. So are there certain emotions that I am dehumanizing myself because humans feel, right?

31:03So if I can never be sad, if I can never be lonely, if I can never be angry, if I can never be embarrassed, right? Where's my humanity? I'm treating myself like a robot, right? And then the third one is around the relationships. So what is my capacity to develop and maintain mutual reciprocal relationships? Because a lot of us do the one-sided relationship. You know, you're the strong one in your friendship circle, the strong one in your family. You're running things and you're everything is like you're not vulnerable or open with anybody. Right. When you're struggling, you disappear. You self-isolate and then show up again when you're shiny.

31:45Oh, yeah. Right. So then that's not a relationship. That's not it. Yeah. Those are that is three really great questions to ask yourself. Yes. That's super, super, super helpful. Because we can. How am I taking care of myself? I mean, that's a really deep question because that affects so many things in your life. And we're not talking about self-care. We're not talking about a skincare regime here. This is like the fundamentals of how you're looking after yourself. And then how do you emotionally regulate? And then what are your relationships like with others? That will let us know. Big questions.

32:18When I say like, how am I doing? We usually say fine or blessed. But like, how am I doing with my emotions? How am I doing with my relationships? how am I doing with not abandoning myself? Do you have a way, like a system of checking in on yourself that you do? Like using those three things or anything. And how often would you do that just to make sure you're okay? I would say it's a good thing to check in with yourself in the morning. And then again, at the end of the day. Every day. Every day. Check in. Because losing yourself or losing sight of yourself can be subtle. and if you look up, you could have weeks, months, years past when you were living like some other person, right?

33:04Because you're going through the motions of living, right? So I want to slow down and check in. Yeah. And if I think, I mean, just thinking about myself for a little while, there've been times in my life I suffered tremendously with, you know, huge anger issues and did a lot of anger management and therapy and as a result of, you know, childhood trauma. But I worked through a lot of that in my 20s. But it really takes some doing. And it takes constant remembering because whenever, you know, I'm in a stressful situation or things get too much, that's the default, right? I can go back there in a second.

33:42It's the most familiar place for me. That's why we have to recognize like growing pains or like the stretching, healing is uncomfortable, right? Healing will be unfamiliar because your go-to is the dysfunction, right? And it's not one and done. You don't get to deal with it at one point and then it goes away forever and ever. No, no, no. That's not my issue. Right, whenever you feel stressed or something triggers you or awakens you, like you can go back to that. So I like to call it sacred pause. Like before I respond, let me take a sacred pause to decide how I want to respond. Oh yeah, that's something we can all learn.

34:21I mean, there's nothing like a breath and a little bit of silence to just quickly regulate. That's what I do like during the day. And it was like a cornerstone of anger management, just learning to not respond. Because the other way, we don't think we have a choice. We're like, I had to, they did this or they didn't that. And you don't want to be caught on the back foot. You're like, I've got to go. Otherwise I lost already, you know? Yeah, it's a war. So there's winners and losers and I'm not going to lose. So it's like, well, there's another way. There is another way. I mean, I feel like throughout my life, I've done different types of therapy.

34:59And a couple of years ago, I did like an intensive course, the Hoffman process, which maybe you know. And I wanted to ask you about things like that. Like, how much do you believe between the self-regulation and looking after yourself and checking in with yourself to, you know, regular weekly therapy or the intensive course? what do you believe is the most beneficial? What should people do? And is there any right answer or is it also individual? Yeah. So I think everyone needs caring for the self-practices and those, as we're saying, like need to be daily. Now the amount of time I can give it will vary by day, right?

35:36So you want to also come up with like a short ways of nourishing yourself, right? Taking breath, drinking water, you know, taking a moment. So, and that includes like when I schedule my day, trying not to schedule things back to back to back to back. So I give myself those breathers. That's a regular part of life. In therapy, most people either do once a week or every other week. In terms of courses, sometimes it is like to jumpstart your learning. It's like, I want to do this or a retreat, but then it becomes, how do I live it out? Right. So I can immerse myself in a program and that's very helpful.

36:14Then it's the practice, right. And, and the application, because many of us will say like, I heard a good podcast or I heard a good speech or I read a great book, but then the application isn't there. Yeah. And how do I carry that through my everyday life? I mean, for me, I've always really enjoyed those things because I do think there's a benefit to that intensive learning and also the dedication of time because we're all so busy. That for me, if I decide I'm taking nine days to focus on myself, to do my individual work, then, you know, I bet I will take those practices into my everyday life because I've dedicated so much.

36:51But I think it's a really interesting way to kickstart some of your understanding around these things. And I don't think that I necessarily came from a place where these were discussions we were happening. It was like, just figure it out. Get on with it. Keep it moving. And this is a key part that many times people who raised us or taught us or mentored us didn't have access to these things. They didn't know any better. And so when they say, like, I made it through without it, well, the truth is if we look closely, they didn't make it through without scars, right? It showed up in the way they parented us.

37:26It showed us in the way they approach work. It showed up in the ways they treated themselves. And so, you know, sometimes people raise it as this banner of, I went through terrible things and never got any help. Yeah. And we see that. And we see that. Yes. It's showing up every single day in your life and your behaviors. And, you know, on this show, there are so many people that are, you know, thinking about starting businesses or, you know, forging great careers. And I talk a lot about making, you know, bold steps and taking big, big moves. But often what holds us back is fear. And, you know, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about fear because oftentimes it's rooted in nothing.

38:08It's rooted in just what we've decided and the stories again that we're telling ourselves. And I wonder how you move through some of that fear and learn to let it go. Yes. So one of them, if it's a fear of failure, then imagine failing and then imagine yourself surviving the failure. So talk me through that. Right. You want a new position in the company that you're working for and you know that you need to put, you make yourself vulnerable, put yourself out there. Yes. And you're saying, imagine that not happening. Right. They might pick somebody else. Right. So of course you hope it's you, but let's say they pick whoever, down the hall.

38:51Right. and then picture yourself the day after you found out it's going to be Susie. Picture yourself waking up. What are you going to do to take care of yourself before you go into the office? Do you have anybody in the office that you want to meet for coffee or tea before you, and then you all could walk in together. No one's going to say anything. No one's going to be like, aha, you didn't get there. So then you walk in and now Susie, maybe you want to walk past her office and say, congratulations or not. You can choose, right? And then you go back to doing, so you're not going to be demoted because you went for it.

39:27Now you're just doing what you were doing before. So you didn't lose anything except people know you have a desire for more. So maybe they can be looking out for you when other opportunities come. What's the psychology behind that? When you asked us to go through and like live that experience, take yourself there? What is that actually doing? So it is exposure. So we're, we're, we have a fear of the unknown or what we have never experienced. So I can have exposure, like real life exposure, which will be like, if I don't get it, but I can also have it in my imagination, right? So then I'm experiencing it in my nervous system.

40:05I'm picturing that. And then I'm seeing myself survive it because before I do that, it's like a blank. I think like, what if I don't get it and everything goes blank? So then I like, I don't think I could survive that. I think it would be so humiliating. I can't picture myself being able to move past it. So now we can imagine it. Is that a style of visualization? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So whether it's fear of failure or fear of success, imagining and thinking through like, Are people scared of success? Yeah. They are. Yeah. Some people. So it can be for different reasons. Sometimes they're afraid of success because they have seen people who are in the limelight get attacked.

40:52Or some people don't want like the responsibility of it, the weight of it. Some people don't want the social consequences. Because let's say all of the coworkers talk bad about the boss. Then you're in the club, right? And it's like, ah, right? So now if I'm out there, they're going to be talking about me. Yeah. So some people, you know, are afraid of success or afraid of, you know, what it means. I had a friend who grew up struggling and had negative thoughts about rich people. It's like, you know, they're selfish or they're this or they're bougie or whatever. And so then he, you know, got a job and made a lot of money.

41:31And so he was very conflicted about like, but what does this mean? Am I now one of them? Well, maybe your idea of them has to change. What's wrong? Right? More humanized. Yeah. You know, there are people there who are like selfish and whatever. And there are people who are very generous and kind. So, yeah, there are some people who are afraid of succeeding.

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43:40What are all the ways that fear show up for us? Because when I think about fear, I think about perfectionism. I think about procrastination. But there are so many ways that fear turns up and sometimes it can be really hard to identify. Yeah. So some people who are controlling are controlling because they're afraid, right? They're afraid of what's going to happen. And that can also be a part of distrust. Like I don't trust other people to do an excellent job. And I'm afraid if I hand it over to them, it's going to be a disaster. So now I'm micromanaging. Now I'm like, you know, carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders or so I think, right?

44:20These are often very female traits as well, right? Nobody can do it as well as I can. I might as well do it myself. I'm just going to overload. Yes, I'll just do it. Yeah, I'll just. And we think about those of us who in school hated group projects, right? Just like, yeah, they're going to let me down. I was always trying not to be picked. I'll do my own. I don't want to mess up my thing. Because I trust me, right? I trust me. And if I do it, it's going to be excellent. But that's that anxiety. Yes. Like, yeah. Can I trust other people, connect with other people? Sometimes the anxiety can show up by us not advocating for ourselves, by us accepting for treatment.

45:03because we may believe if I speak up for myself, people will get angry or people will abandon me or people won't choose me. So then I am censoring myself. I'm contorting myself to be acceptable. And that happens a lot in the workplace with people, right? And I love to talk to you about workplace trauma because I think that that, I don't know that people know exactly what that looks like all of the time, but if you are censoring yourself, If you're not coming to the table as your whole self and you're feeling like you have to present some other version, like that is real trauma in the workplace, isn't it?

45:42And it shows up. A big one I'll say is happening now is companies who are doing these mass layoffs. So then, and people are knowing they could be next and having to show up and do your job. Yes, that's hard. Yeah. And you also see how people who may have been here for years, they let them go and like no one ever mentions them again. So that's that realizing too, you've been loyal to this thing that's not loyal to you. So that can stir up all kinds of emotions that understandably makes it difficult. Yeah. And I've, I mean, I've seen this firsthand because I mean, look, most companies go through times when there are big layoffs.

46:22And I think what I've learned over, you know, the past 10 years is that it's transparency that matters to people. That's right. When you try to do something like that and you don't address it with everyone and you don't talk about it after and you pretend that Sally that you used to sit next to didn't exist, like that's the big issue. These things happen And they're in the usual course of business, but how you communicate, how those people are treated, how the people that are left are, you know, spoken to. That's right. And the level of transparency, that's the important thing. Yeah. If we're in denial, no one's talking about it.

46:58And we know like this thing is, you know, changing people's lives. Then there's like a lack of caretaking, right? A lack of honoring of people. And so yes, to say like, you know, we're in this terrible situation that is happening. This is happening. We want to check in. We want to be transparent. We want to tell people what's going on or where we are in the process. That makes a difference. Is trauma that you experience in the workplace very, very different from what you might experience in your own personal life? Right. So one, I want to say most of these incidents in the workplace, I would call stress.

47:33Right. Instead of a trauma. Right. So it may be, you know, the stress of layoffs versus, you know, when there has been like violence in the workplace and we've seen those kinds of things happen. Or, you know, the cumulative effect of like sexual harassment. And even if it didn't get to the physical point, it just is continuing over time and that can have kind of traumatizing effects. Yeah, it's a totally different thing. Yeah. It's a totally different thing. And how we deal with it has to be completely different. And then we want to connect it with, in terms of trauma, when we've had experiences in trauma outside of the workplace, how that can affect the way we show up in the workplace, right?

48:14So if I grew up or had like secure relationships as an adult, then I can show up to work and I'm kind of expecting things to go according to plan. I'm not coming in suspicious. Yes. You know, I'm just, I feel like secure and my expectations are this will be a healthy place versus if I've, you know, been in situations where it's inconsistent. People say one set of rules and then treat you another way. You know, now I'm coming into the workplace with a lot of anxiety. And so I may start overworking, trying to like prove myself, trying to be enough and like setting no boundaries and then also having issues with people in authority.

48:55You know, some people just because you're their supervisor, they're having all this anger because their experience of people with power has not been good. Yeah. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about leadership, because I think it's a place where, you know, a lot of people find themselves in positions of leadership, but you're not going to get everything right all the time. So how do you deal with that in a workplace scenario when you feel like you're in a position of authority, you're expected to get things right all the time? How do we forgive ourselves from the missteps, from, you know, things that perhaps don't go right the first time around or if you've just got regrets?

49:36Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great one. I like to call it pulling the wisdom out of the womb. Right. So I've been through some things. I didn't always get it right. The key is like, did I learn from it? So that next time, you know, I know how to do some things differently. I remember I was working at a university and coordinating their sexual assault response program. And I came in new, fresh, and saw all kinds of issues with the system. And so I was very soon saying, like, you know, this system is broken. We need a whole new system. Guns blazing. Right. Oh, yeah. Had not taken into account that everybody in the room built this system.

50:18so look sorry oh right I'm like oh not you well you know kind of you but it's like but if I had that in my mind yes I would have framed it differently and in the future when I've been in places where like some things need to change to first start off with like honoring the people who have you know kept the boat afloat and like we want to build on their successes. Yes, you do. Yeah. So I learned from it. And then I think it's also for us to acknowledge it to the team, the willingness to recognize when you've made a mistake. Yeah. And that's all it often takes. It's about the recognition. Yes. It's really, really difficult.

51:01It's difficult for people. Yes. Because they feel like you said this assumption of like, I'm supposed to get everything right. Well, but you didn't. Right. So now a way of getting it right is acknowledging that you like learned from that path. Right. That we're going to do things differently going forward instead of pretending it didn't happen. Instead of pretending. Yeah. What about forgiveness? Like when we start to think about how we can move forward through trauma, through whatever might have happened in our life, professional, personal, or otherwise, how do we redefine forgiveness? Because it's one of those things that can make, you know, depending who you are and where you come from, it can be a very, very complex emotion.

51:47Is it an emotion? But it's a complex process. Yeah. A complex thing to think about. Right. So we have to really unpack what we mean when we say forgiveness, because some people will say things that aren't true. Like if you forgive, you'll never think about it again. That's just not true. Like neurologically, it doesn't work. So because then if you think about it, people say, well, you must have not forgiven. That's not true. If something was big. You're never forgetting it necessarily. Yeah. Yeah. Forgiving also doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal. Sometimes we don't want to forgive because we think that we're saying it didn't matter.

52:25Right. And forgiveness can be a process so you can first give yourself permission to feel what you feel. Because some of us are trying to do like the instant thing of like, soon as it happened, we're like, I don't know, I'm over it. And it's like, no, you're not. Very rarely. Right? Yeah. So just allow yourself to first feel the impact of it. Right? The reason you're saying there is something to forgive is there was a wrong that was done. So, you know, can, can you give yourself permission to grieve, to have anger, to have frustration. I like to say it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things.

53:04And some outrageous things have happened. So I don't have to pretend that it wasn't outrageous. It's just that with forgiveness, I don't want to get stuck there. So when I forgive, I give myself permission to not have to stay stuck in that place of being worked up and overwhelmed by other people's actions. That's a reframing of forgiveness though, isn't it? Because I think the way that maybe we traditionally think about forgiveness is that whatever happened was somehow okay. Right. But that's totally different from what you just described. Because also if I say it's okay, then that means they can keep doing it.

53:42Right. Right? What you're saying is I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. And we can become okay if I choose to reconcile. We can work so that we're okay. But the action was not okay. Do you always, do you have to forgive to be able to move past something? Well, I'm going to say it depends on who you ask. From a therapist, you don't have to, right? And I give that caution because religious people. I was just going to say that as a pastor. Right. And even as, and I would say even as a pastor, I don't interpret the word in the way many people think. So many people, when they say you must forgive, what they're really trying to say is you must reconcile.

54:25And that's not true. And if you're a person of faith, it's not even biblical, right? That to reconciliation requires what we call repentance. So a change of mind, meaning you're not going to keep doing it, right? So I can forgive someone who's not sorry, but I can't be reconciled with someone who's not sorry because they're going to keep doing hurtful things. That's some clarification. Yeah. So you can forgive and move on. You can forgive and move on. You don't need to forgive and forget. Right. It's, you know, in order for us to heal us, then people have to acknowledge what they did was wrong and be actively working to not keep doing it.

55:08That is very clear. Yeah. It's a very clear definition. And it puts some, it puts accountability with the person who has done the harm. Yes, not with you. Because the way we often frame it is no matter what they do to you, you're just supposed to keep forgiving, forgiving, forgiving. And there's no accountability for people who are out here hurting folks. And there has to be. Yes. There has to be. Yeah. You know, when I think about trauma, because, you know, I think about my own traumas. And then as a mother of four, I immediately go to, but how do I not create, you know, how do I not allow these situations to happen for my own children, my own kids?

55:47But you can't. Right. You can't prevent this from happening to them. What we can do as parents is we just can reduce the risk, but there's no guarantee. Right. So how do I reduce the risk? I may say, before I let my child play at a certain place, I'm going to check out the people. Right. And so then I may say, okay, I'm comfortable with these people. Yes, my child can go to their child's party, but people can trick you. Trying to do some checking is good. Setting some ground rules is good. Trying to have open lines of communication with your kid is really good because a lot of kids will hold things in.

56:24Talking with kids proactively about things so that if something happens or makes them uncomfortable, they'll know what to do or that they can talk to you. But, you know, we also have situations where we, quote unquote, did all the things and bad things can still happen. And bad things can still happen. How do you teach boundaries? Because I feel like so much of what people struggle with is their boundaries. And if you don't have boundaries, it's very difficult to demonstrate to your kids to have boundaries. Yeah. It's a great point that a part of us teaching it to our kids, as with other lessons, is taught better by our actions than our words.

57:03Yeah. You have to demonstrate the behavior. They're watching what we do, what we accept or don't accept, where we draw the line. And then they will often copy those behaviors. What can we do? What can we teach them? What can we tell them? Yes. So, you know, we may say something like around boundary setting. If I'm a people pleaser, then I'm saying yes to everything and everyone. And I'm always exhausted. and I'm neglecting myself and I'm probably neglecting my kids because I'm doing everything for everyone else. Yes. Right. So then I want to shift that. And I may say to my kids, you know, I noticed I've been running a lot lately or forever.

57:44Right. And so I want to start saying no to some outside things more so I can say yes to us. Yes to my rest. Yes to my peace. And yes to our time of having fun. And then I'll share with them those times of like, oh, yeah, someone asked me to do this thing on Saturday, but I told them no, because we're going to relax in the house and watch a movie. That's just what we're doing. Yeah. So what happens if you're a really ambitious go-getter of a person? How do you set boundaries for yourself when you still have like very, very high expectations on yourself? Right. Yeah. So you can be very goal oriented, but I love this phrase.

58:23Life coach here in L.A., Shannon Yvette, has a sentence. She says, I want to be called and not driven. And what she means by that is like, if I'm traumatized or if I feel insecure, I'm driven. So then I'm constantly chasing significance and nothing is ever enough. So that's not just me being ambitious or goal oriented. It is me seeking validation. Chasing. Yeah. So with that, then I can never be still. I can never celebrate my wins. I can never just enjoy a quiet afternoon because I'm hungry for this enoughness. Versus, you know, if you have gifts, talents, and I feel called or purposeful about certain things I'm doing, I'm doing them but in a settled way.

59:14Right? It's not just like all over the place or frantic or anxious. You know, when I'm living with purpose, I'm also setting some boundaries. What do you say to women that feel inherently guilty any time they take a bit of time for themselves? Because we all know that it's important. But then the minute you step over into that, you know, like me, time, mode, the guilt strikes. Yeah, it's a great point of not only how do I care for myself, but to do that without the guilt. And, you know, what I like to say in part is I want to be a good model to my children. So if the way I'm running and frantic and overwhelmed, is that what I want my daughter to copy?

59:59Yeah. Right. So I like to say, I said it in a TED talk. I did let your children catch you relaxing, like let them catch you laughing, having ease in your life because you you want that for them. So if I don't ever do it and then I say the message, take care of yourself, but they're like, they know that means nothing. Yeah. So then in my going to the spa or laying down or watching a show, I am demonstrating that you can be successful and goal oriented and also have like ease in your life. And I believe it causes us to show up as better people. when I'm distressed and burned out and I'm being the martyr, right?

1:00:46I'm like, I'm not taking any breaks. And, you know, I look down on these women who go and do these things. You know, well, your kids and perhaps your partner would love for you to go relax somewhere. Yeah, and take a break. And chill out. You know, you're stressing everybody out. I mean, you're a very, very accomplished woman. There's, I mean, your bio is kind of insane. So what is your take on the whole work-life balance conversation, situation, myth, whatever we want to call it. So I will say a secret hack of mine that won't work for everyone, but I have an academic job. So because it's an academic job, it's not a nine to five, right?

1:01:27So I teach classes, I go to my faculty meetings, but you know, if my kid was having a recital at school in the middle of the day, I could actually go if I wasn't teaching a class at that time. So that creates, I would say, more spaciousness for those of us who like to do multiple things. So, you know, I may see clients in the morning and then go teach a class in the afternoon. But also, I will say the rhythm of my life or the outlets that I choose did have to change with parenting. So, for example, I love spoken word poetry, right? So when I was younger in college and in my 20s, like all of the open-minded places.

1:02:08Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slam poetry, all the things. I love it. Yeah, I love it. But all the places would be like 10 o 'clock at night. Yeah. You know, on a Tuesday. On a Tuesday. And so, yeah, if I'm in my early 20s, yeah, midnight, we're still there. So when I, you know, became a parent and a professor, it's just like I couldn't do that anymore. And then one day I was sitting with like, I miss myself. Right? I'm a poet. I miss it. And so then I had to find what are other ways of integrating that into my life. So if I speak at churches, they're going to get a poem. In some of my lectures, they get a poem.

1:02:45You know, I've done poetry therapy groups. But it's neither about giving up that part of yourself, right? It's finding another way for it to work. So what do you think when it comes down to doing the work? Like I often hear some of my friends say it feels so indulgent to do my own thing, to take my poetry class, to do the thing that fills me up. What do you say? Yeah. And oftentimes it can be really just difficult to fit it all in. So why is it so important for people that are in roles where they are carers or mothers or, you know, I just wonder why it becomes so difficult. Yes. So I would say if you're partnered or planning to be partner, to partner with someone who actually wants to partner.

1:03:34Right? Because some of the research - You better say that one again. Right. If you want a partner. You mean someone who comes to the table. Someone who's like. Someone who doesn't think that all of this is for you to do. That doesn't think it's a hardship to pick up their children. Or doesn't think it's a hardship to check homework. Or to cook a meal. God forbid. Right? Yeah. Yes. So if I want to have time for those things, then I want to be intentional about partnering with people who think that's important. who think my wellness, my joy, my gifts are important. Yeah. Yeah. And that's all about who you choose.

1:04:13Yes. And then I will say for those who are single parents to make use of your tribe, because sometimes what we have, and I've been guilty of this, is you'll have people who offer to help and you're like, no, I'm good. Yes. Right. They're like, no, pick a day. I want to give you a break. No, no, no. I'm fine. I got it. I got it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So put down the superwoman cape and say, were you, look, When you made that offer, were you serious? I'll take it. Come on over. Yes, please. Yeah. Right? Why is it so hard for us to accept help? Like, what is that? It's the idea we have about people who need help.

1:04:48We think they're weak or ineffective. So then we want to be the helper. Let me help these people who aren't as strong as me because I'm strong. And so I can, receiving help can be a strength. And also, you know, it's human. it's human to need help. What do you say to women who just feel such tremendous guilt about ever focusing on themselves? How do you get women out of that mindset to realize that it is so very important? I would say who told you you're not worthy of care? Who made you feel like you were not worthy? Because you believe other people are deserving, you know, you believe other people are deserving, but something has happened to make you believe that you should be able to function without any care and it's a lie it's just a lie it's just and there's no as if you know there's no award for it you know sadly there is no there's penalty so our health it's the opposite you actually only get the underbelly yes yeah and then it also doesn't teach a good message to your family about what it really means to be a part of a family.

1:06:01If family means they all get to relax and you get to do everything, then where's the family? Have you had a moment in your life where you just couldn't cope anymore, where it was just too much for you? So my example of that is during the pandemic. Oh, the pandemic. Right? Oh my goodness. What a time in our lives. What a time. We were doing all the therapy online. And suddenly, because people were stressed, overwhelmed and grieved, so many people were reaching out, seeking services. That was the first time in my career where I had to put a sign on my website saying I wasn't taking any more clients.

1:06:41Because literally, and people know you're not going anywhere. So they're like, you know, see me at nine o 'clock, right? It's on Zoom. So I had the clients. And then my kids are home. because they're doing, you know, school was online because of the pandemic. Oh, I remember those days. Oh, my gosh. It was just stressful. And then in the midst of all of that, we had all of the racially motivated murders happening. So it was like the most. And in terms of that guilt, you were saying. Wow, you are taking me back to a time. It's like you blank it out somehow. Right. That's my trauma response. It was absolutely too, too much.

1:07:21Yeah. And so I just say, like, something's got to give out in terms of the guilt feeling, because I know, especially within the African-American community, many people have like a stigma about going to therapy. So if people took the step of asking, I was feeling bad about saying no. Yes. Right. Yes. And then people who know my spiritual background would say things like, God said you're my therapist. And you're like, well, if God said. I guess it'll be that. I guess it'll be eight o 'clock. Here's the link. But I discovered a win-win. I had all of these former students from Pepperdine who had like three clients.

1:08:03So I just started referring, referring, referring. And so they can get the care. They are building up, you know, their practice. And, you know, to release the lie that I have to carry it all. Wow. How did you do during that time? Oh, once I set that boundary, things were like so much better because before I just was like adding and adding and adding. And it just was was unbearable. But yeah. And then one of the fun things that can happen with kids, you know, because they can't really go anywhere. We ended up ordering this trampoline. So my son was like, come jump with me. So it was great. I would see clients back to back and then get out there and jump.

1:08:45Get out of your system. Get out of your system. That's one way. I mean, it's really interesting when you think about going back to that time in the pandemic, because it's like a distant dream nightmare memory at this point. Yes, it did feel like this altered reality. Do you feel like we've all processed the pandemic properly? We have not both, we have not grieved it. Like even the number of deaths, we haven't really taken it in. It was, you know, kind of this American cultural mantra of like, move forward strong and just keep it moving. What do you think happens when like collectively in society, when we all experience something so big like that and then it isn't processed?

1:09:31Yeah. It shows up in our either heartening our hearts where like there's that lack of compassion or that fragility where like easily annoyed, easily attacking others. Is that where we are in society right now? That's exactly where we are. You know, and still in that survival mode, the divisiveness is like, only some are going to survive and I'm looking out for mine. And in order for mine to survive, than yours can. And you think some of that is a direct, like it's directly correlated to what happened during COVID. That makes such a lot of sense. Because I believe, you know, some of these things, of course, predated, but in terms of it being exacerbated and stirred up, because you also got to see how quick people were willing to discard others.

1:10:19Like in the beginning, they were like, Like, well, you're only at risk if you, you know, have immune compromised or if you're older. It's like, those are your elders. Yes. But like, you know, they've lived. So it's like this heartless. Yes. Yes. No, it's interesting culturally the differences that happened during COVID. Well, and the other thing we have to deal with in our culture in particular is the widespread denial. The fact that there are people to this day who think those numbers are fake, who think it wasn't a big deal, who are mad that we had any restrictions. Right. So that level of high denial and that, you know, you have that polarization.

1:11:01Yes. Yes. As humans, we can't just align on. We're not even going to agree on the facts. How can we heal when we don't even all agree that there was trauma? And you talk to the people who did lose loved ones, multiple loved ones, and they're confronted with those who are like, don't believe it. Wow. That's just, I guess that takes us back to any kind of trauma. Because as you said at the start of these conversations, we all experience it completely differently. Yeah. The same thing can happen and we can all have. Yeah. And that's just like also during the pandemic when we were at home. Some people like were doing all these projects in their house and were, you know, doing their own homeschooling and arts and crafts projects.

1:11:44And some people were just like trying to get through the day feeling, you know, very overwhelmed, staying in the bed. I was struck by as a therapist when they had only essential businesses could open and on the list were liquor stores. And when I mentioned this to people, they're like, they better not close them. They go themselves. But, you know, you saw it go through a sequence. There was a period where everyone was baking. So all the baking stuff. Did a lot of banana bread. Yes, yes, yes, we did. So things are like, yeah, how did we make it? How did we make it? Banana bread and margaritas. What a combination.

1:12:22Maybe we can go back. It's really funny. I wanted to have the conversation with you about triggers because this is something that really perplexes me so much because people's triggers will be so, so different. How do you know when triggers are running your show? Like what is the way to spot it and to figure out how you can cope and learn mechanisms to pause before you let something like that dictate how you're reacting? Yes. So you can recognize it when the object is neutral to other people. So, for example, some of us can be triggered by a scent, right? Because the scent is what we smell during a trauma.

1:13:06And then other people smell that and like, it's nothing to them. So then it's like. So that should signal to you that that's a trigger of some description. Yes, it's a trigger for me. I smell that and I feel frightened or I get tearful or I'm holding myself tightly. We can also think about people's behavior where someone can do something annoying, but for some people, they're responding like this was a huge attack. So then you can see like, we were all in this place, but yes, what they did was rude or what they did was not called for. But the level of your response, what do you think that came from?

1:13:47Have you had an encounter with like, what does that remind you of? Who does that remind you of? And so then people may say, oh, that's just like my father used to do. Like, okay. There we go. There we go. Yeah, because we're all trying to figure out like how you ended up responding at that heightened level. What is the right way to handle these things? And when do they stop? Like, do you get to some magical age where it's like, that stuff goes away or do you have to do the work? Right. So it depends on what it is. Sometimes we can kind of rewire, rework our nervous system with exposure. So let's say the incident happened in a particular neighborhood or in a house or at that school, and I haven't been able to go back.

1:14:33So then I may work on my like breathing and muscle relaxation so that I can actually go there. Like I had a client who was in a mass shooting at a concert. And so for her, and concerts were like a joy for her. And so a big goal for her in therapy was to get to a place where she could go back, right? And so then she went and like there was no shooting and she had a good time, but she was prepared. Like she went with two friends and they were prepared for like if I need to leave that you all are willing to leave with me. So she could, you know, work up to it and then create like some new memories, some new experiences.

1:15:09What happens if the trigger is more like it's a person? It's a family member. I feel like so many of us have and, you know, you're not getting rid of those family members. You can't choose, you know, not to see them in the same way. Right. So for family members, I would first distinguish for people, are you triggered by their past behavior or is it something they're continuing to do? Right. Can you separate the two? Right. Right. Because let's say they, you know, were mean when I was growing up. And, you know, some people will say, like, when they become grandparents, they become nicer. So then when you can see the change, sometimes it's easier to digest.

1:15:51What if they don't change? Right. If they don't change, then you do have to make some decisions around boundaries, because some of us may feel like you have to give them all of your time all the time. And that's not true. So there's a lot of options between cutting people off, which some people choose to do, or being around them nonstop. So I may say to someone, if you have a relative who is continuing to do harmful things, for me to say, do I have to spend every holiday with them? Do I have to be there every weekend? And so I get to, I can decrease my time in the space, or I can also think about activities I can do while I'm there.

1:16:33So say it's a family gathering, I might choose to sit at the kids' table, right? We are just going to talk about Roblox or whatever and let them do what they're going to do. Or if people need someone to run an errand and get something from the store, I will. I would love to. I'll get in the car, call my friend. Like, yep. And that's not avoidant? No, not if. So this is if you're talking about someone who's not changing. Right. Right? If I have a relative that if I had the hard conversation with, it could shift. Then let's have the hard conversation. But not everyone can change, right? Yeah. Some people have no interest in changing.

1:17:11And so a part of that can be us thinking about, you know, whether or not we want to confront or have the conversation. And if people are thinking about confronting someone about, you know, an issue that happened or a trauma that happened, you know, I help them to be prepared for the different possible responses. Like best case scenario, they acknowledge it. They're sorry. They authentically feel bad about it. Yeah. That's best case. People might say, I don't remember. I don't know what you're talking about. You're lying. I never did that. Right. So we have to turn it on you. Well, that's because you.

1:17:48So we have to be prepared for that. And then I tell people, if you are going to be shattered, if they don't apologize, then you're not ready for the confrontation. Right. But if you're in a place where no matter what they say, I need to speak my truth. And I don't care if they acknowledge it or not, even if I do care, but it's more important to me to say it, that what you did was harmful. I didn't deserve it. And it should never have happened. And you do. And you think having those types of conversation are necessary for healing? Not for all people. I would say if you're going to continue to be around them.

1:18:25Then it could be. Right. If I say, you know, this person is harmful, not only to me, but maybe they might do those same things to my children. So I may say, I don't want to go over there anymore. And so there may never be a conversation. I just don't go. Or if you say, I'm going to go, but with limits or boundaries. So I may say, if any of these things happen, then I'm going to take my kids and leave. You know, we can communicate it that way. Other things we may feel like this is their personality. And when I was younger, it hurt my feelings more, but like, I'm not in that space anymore. So I would say like the people who get the backhanded compliments, but they're like, oh, you're still wearing your hair like that.

1:19:08Or, oh, you're still single or, oh, you know, you know? So like if that, if that is still devastating to you, then you can make some different decisions about, do you want to be around them? Totally. But, uh, you know, if you're at a place where you're good with your life and you're like, watch this, I'm gonna walk in there and she gonna say something about my head. You can probably go through it. You know, she's going to say something about my weight or whatever it is. So, you know, for each person, you got to, that's that checking in with yourself. Yes. Which you should be doing every day and every night.

1:19:40Yes. And definitely before you go to your family's house. Yes, definitely. That's the morning to do it. Right. That is the time to check in. That is the time.

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1:21:40do you believe that in order to live a happy life that healing is non-negotiable yes the only way it would be negotiable are people who are in denial about their dysfunction so there are people who are perfectly happy who are ruining things for everybody else right whose job is it to tell them well it's no one's job unless you're going to keep interacting with them so you just have to well no if you're if you're going to be around them if you're going to engage with them but often people like that it's hard for them to hear it or see it or receive it or believe it. But I will say there are people who have enough insight and awareness where if you give an example or you explain it, they may have missed it in the moment.

1:22:39But sometimes there are people who, when you give it to them, are like, oh, okay, like I didn't know, like that was a thing. So let's say the controlling person or the, or this is a big one I see with people, people who honor truth telling, but without grace. So for them, the most important thing is that, well, it was true. I told you. Yeah, exactly. It was true. Like, I'm not going to lie. It was true. Right. But it was like, but your delivery and your tone was not one of care. Yes. It was one where you were trying to sting them. Oh yeah. You're never going to get anything done like that. Right.

1:23:16I mean, I'm someone who really believes in this idea of massive kind of, I guess, like accountability for your own life, right? And I wonder what you think the difference is between blame and responsibility in healing for yourself. Yes. So I think it is important, especially when you bring up forgiveness, around self-forgiveness, it's important that we not hold ourselves responsible for things we're not responsible for. So sometimes that's shame and self-blame. So we may be saying like, I'm trying to forgive myself for being molested. That's not for you to, you know, you didn't do anything wrong, but some people that's how they're, that's how they're framing it.

1:24:05So if we're talking about self-forgiveness, we want to first make sure it's actually something you did and, you know, something that was harmful or that you want to learn from and do something different. The other part about self-forgiveness is sometimes we are looking at ourselves through our current lens, right? So 15-year-old me doesn't know what me knows now. Even 22, even 40-year-old me doesn't know what I know now, right? So yes, I can give myself some grace and compassion while also still saying, you know, that was a mistake and I don't want to do that again. I wanted to talk to you about spiritual practice because you're a pastor, obviously and you feel like the right person to talk about but I feel like um if you weren't I wasn't raised particularly religious and I've always felt like a a deeply spiritual person but it can feel like the last thing for whatever reason you know it's like where does this fit in my life I don't have a church I don't have a an altar like I do you know it's like I pray but you know to who to what I don't know and so what how important do you think spiritual practice is to feel true alignment, to be a really balanced person.

1:25:20And especially when we all live how we do now, so busy, so consumed, so much going on all the time. It feels to me, and maybe it's just, I don't know, something to do with the age, that it's becoming more and more and more something that I wish I had a deeper connection to. Do you think that it's that important? Yes, I think that it's vital. There are, of course, people who go through life without it, but then, you know, it's an aspect of them that hasn't been nourished, right? That hasn't been fed. And, you know, it's never too late to say, like, I'm claiming it now and I'm shaping it into, you know, what it's going to be for me.

1:26:04And so I talked about like start of the day. I like to encourage people to do like morning rituals. So people call it morning devotions. So the first thing is you have to wake up before you have to get up. Because if you wake up and have to jump out of bed, you're already anxious, right? Yes. So you wake up before you have to get up and then you play with different things to discover what's something that feels like nourishing to your soul. So for some people of you, I said prayer. So instead of like waiting for a crisis and say, like, God, help me. Right. Yes. Start my morning. Thank you, God.

1:26:40Right. Right. Right. With that. Thank you. You know, and that gratitude also helps to protect us against despair because when we're in a place of depression, we see everything that's going wrong and we can overlook the things that are going right. So I may start with a gratitude prayer. I might start with meditation. I might start with moving and stretching, putting on some either instrumental music or some sacred music. Do you do all the things? I love this. I love it. And of course, each morning, like the amount of time you do it or the sequence of what you do can change. Reading sacred texts, journaling, taking a walk in nature.

1:27:19I feel like maybe I've misunderstood all the spiritual things that I do do. Yes. You know, because I've always journaled and I always have gratitude and I always stand in nature. And I do meditate in the morning, but maybe I just haven't accepted that as a spiritual undertaking. Right. I think the part that you're missing is feeling like wanting to connect with your higher source or to connect with your creator. So those things may be they're good because they're taking me into myself. In which. Right. And so then if I want this like outward connection, then it's being like intentional about my prayers or reading devotionals, those kinds of things.

1:28:02Yeah. And I will say the arts, and I mentioned I love poetry and dancing, but the arts can also be a way of making that connection. A really big way, right? A really big way. Yeah. And it's poetry. Yes. And dancing. How much of your, I mean, when you think about your life now and all that you do, how important is that stuff? Do you believe that everybody needs to nurture that other side of them, the more artistic side, the more spiritual side? For me, it's been vital. So in terms of the spirituality, I believe that the work of therapy and providing therapy is faith work. In order to do therapy, you have to believe that things can be better than they are right now to act of faith.

1:28:52That's a really great framing for therapy. So when people. You have to believe. Yeah. That things could be better than they are now. Right. That's just it. You've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of is faith. That is. It is faith. It's like I have never been like this calmer person or more confident person. But I just believe that I can become that. My goodness. Yeah. I mean, we needed like breath gaps just in this day to day. That's like a really quite a lot to take in. It is. It is. But that's the beauty of it. Because that's not how people think about therapy. We think about therapy in a way to like get us through this thing that's bothering us or like to, you know, I don't know.

1:29:39But it's not. The growth. It's not like evolution. Yes. That's not. I want to bloom. Right. Not just I want to like work on my stuff. Yes. It's like I want to be the fullness of myself. I want to expand. I want to grow. If someone listening right now is still running from the things that are stifling from them, from the pain, what would you want them to know right now? I would say the only way you will discover that you are bigger than your pain is to stop running. And the more you run, the bigger the shadow of the pain, because it's convincing you that it's bigger than you. Yeah. And so if the idea of standing still is intimidating or overwhelming to know you don't have to do it by yourself.

1:30:37So you can get into therapy and then stand still. And that tide is going to come in the stuff you've been running from because it's exhausting to spend a life running. It's exhausting, right? That's why for some people, quiet is painful. Stillness is painful. Because then the things I'm running from catch up with me. Yeah. Right? So then I have to have the TV on. Just got to keep it moving. Yes. Yeah, got to have all the apps. We all know these people. Yeah. Right? And so this is a great season of your life to give yourself the capacity to slow down, to stop running. Oh, I love that. Yeah. It's a good moment.

1:31:20We're deserving of it. Yes. Right? Yeah, but you have to believe that you're deserving of it. Yeah. Right? You really, really do. Or what also happens is sometimes we just get exhausted or it catches up with us. Right? Some people were running and running and running and now their children are the age they were when the trauma started. Now, like it hits. It hits. Right? It really, really hits. So you can slow down or it can catch you, but either way you will be confronted with yourself. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, I have a strong belief that you can't really manifest true success without being whole yourself.

1:31:59And I had a brilliant conversation with Charlemagne the God. And we spoke about some of this. And I just wondered what wholeness means to you and why it's essential for real success. Yes, absolutely. So to be whole is to accept all of the different parts of yourself, that I accept them and that I nurture them and that I get to know them. And so. Even the bad thoughts. Yes. Oh, especially the bad parts. Because when I don't, when I'm not tuned in to those, then they aren't running my life. Yeah. They might be in the driver's seat because I'm pretending like, la, la, la, I don't see it. Yeah. But they're there.

1:32:43They're there. And the people you're close to are having close encounters with those aspects of yourself. So even if you don't see it having a consequence to you, those you care about are paying a price for that. So when we think about success, we have to recognize, or I invite us to recognize, that if there are aspects of myself that I'm neglecting or that I'm trying not to see, that is taking energy. Yes. Right? Because I'm trying to suppress those things. So I'm not showing up to life with my full, like, hands and heart and eyes open. Because you're too busy pushing things down. I'm so busy.

1:33:27Suppression is work. Denial is work. And so then when I can, like, take in the fullness of me, now I can, like, I can give all of that to life. right? Yeah. To show up in truth. And when I accept the, all of these different aspects of myself, then there's no duplicate, right? Nope. No one can be another you. No, but if I'm like hiding it, cause I want to be acceptable, you know, now I'm just kind of trudging along. Yeah. It's not even me. So some of us have not introduced our full selves to the world, but some of us have not introduced our full selves to ourselves right so it's like wouldn't this be a good year to meet you wouldn't it wouldn't it yeah yeah and that's why i especially say for people who think solitude is punishment oh then you haven't met yourself no i love being with me there's nothing more that i try to search for i'm just trying to get rid of one kid one husband i'm like leave me alone and let me be by myself but people find that really hard and I you know I think about you know jobs are fleeting business is fleeting success is fleeting and all you're left with is you right you're all that you are guaranteed to have and so what are the best ways that we can focus on that and nurture ourselves if you everything that you know and everything that you teach and everything that you learned if if we do a couple of things today like What should we do to make sure that we are looking after ourselves?

1:35:06Yeah. The first thing I'll say is tell yourself the truth. Yeah. We mentioned other people lying to us, but sometimes we lie to ourselves. Don't be one of them. Right? And so if I want to be well, I have to first acknowledge the wounds. Right? I can't heal what I won't acknowledge. You can feel more than one thing at the same time. Yes. Right? So you might be excited about this work initiative, but still be exhausted, right? Or you might be grateful for this open door and still disappointed about some other closed doors. And so I tell myself the truth and I tell myself the fullness of the truth, recognizing I'm a complicated person.

1:35:50So then I have to make room for all my layers, right? And then a part of me living well is choosing well the people I bring into my inner circle. Yes. Right? So I want to be cordial, kind, polite to everyone. But who are the people I hold close? Because that can either edify me or drain me. Yes. Right? And I tell people sometimes the reason our healing has been delayed is we keep surrounding ourselves with people who cause us to feel bad about ourselves. So then you never got to heal because the lie keeps repeating. It keeps going. Yeah. Yeah. And then that holistic piece of what am I doing for my body?

1:36:39What am I doing for my heart? What am I doing for my spirit? What am I doing for my financial health? So, you know, and to notice for yourself, what do you lean towards and what are the things you avoid? Because we have things we're just more comfortable with. So let me lean into the things I was not as familiar with. That's excellent advice. Really excellent advice. Talking about excellent advice, one of the things that I love to do is get on my girlfriend group chat and ask them what they want to ask you. So this is a way of me not getting angry calls from English women. Okay, right. They didn't get to it.

1:37:15No, no, no. They're like, we need our questions answered. So, okay. One of my girls said in the group chat, I'm successful, but I'm exhausted. I don't even understand what part of me is tired. Okay, that really rang true for me. What do you say to women that feel deep fatigue, but they don't know how to name it and they don't know what they can do about it? Very good. So the first is the acknowledgement and to know that it's deeper than a nap. It's not just I didn't get enough sleep, right? My soul is tired. And so then what we want to look at. That part there. Right? My soul is tired. That part there.

1:37:49It's like, it's not solved by me resting this weekend. No, no. It's not. You know, you can get a full night's sleep and wake up tired. It's like, what? Why are you? Wait, it's getting up. Like, oh God. It's like, yes, yes. We all know that feeling. So what I would say is to take a look at two things. One, what are you doing that's actually fulfilling? Because when I'm flowing and what's fulfilling, not just what I'm good at. What's fulfilling. What is fulfilling. What's filling you up. Yes. What's giving you joy. What's energizing you. Right? There you go. Yes. When I do that, it energizes me, right?

1:38:29It strengthens me. It makes me look forward to like, I can't wait for tomorrow. Yes. Right? Versus like, ooh, I got to do it again. Yeah. Right? So let me choose things that are fulfilling. And then for me to say, what do I need to start saying no to that I've been saying yes to out of obligation and habit? That's what's exhausting you. You know, the yes is that you that and maybe for a season it was OK, but you're tired of it. You don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. So I go back to the beginning of this podcast because we told you how to say no. You got to say the no. Say no. You got to say no.

1:39:10And your real ones will be okay with the fact that you changed your mind. Yes. Yeah. The real ones. Yes. And everybody else, like maybe they're not the ones. No. The other ones are just looking for what you can do for them. Yes. Not what you need. Yeah. Right. They're going to be disappointed and that's okay. And it's so interesting because your true friends, your real girlfriends, always get it. Always. Always get it. And they're so happy. They're like, oh, you're just going to stay in? Good. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Thank you. They're like, I should do that. You just gave me the night back. Yeah.

1:39:46I love that. What would you say to a woman who's doing all the things, working, mothering, showing up, but still feels like she's failing silently? Yeah. So the one person that you're failing is yourself. And so then you want to say, what is your unacknowledged dream? You've put a dream on the back burner. it's not a professional dream or it's not the professional dream you've been pursuing and you want to get it back you want to get you back so that's one the neglected dream the forgotten dream the other one is unrealistic expectations right so you may be a great mother but your idea of a great mother is just, you know, somewhere out of a magazine.

1:40:36Somewhere off of Instagram. Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So get more realistic expectations. And both of those things come down to what you said at the beginning, just telling the truth. Right. Right. Being truthful with yourself. Yeah. All right. I've got another question. So many of us say we want peace, but we stay in chaos because it's familiar. How do you start choosing peace when peace feels foreign? Oh, that is very good. And what I say to that is, this is a trauma response. And what is the story I have told myself about chaos? Sometimes the story is where there's chaos, I'm needed. So if things were calm, then maybe nobody needs me.

1:41:22And then why would they choose me? Or why would they appreciate me? Sometimes the story is if people care, then there'll be a lot of drama. And if they don't care, then they're just calm. So then we are telling ourselves a false story. Sometimes the story is that peace is boring and it's not boring. Right. So what is the story about chaos? us and can I dare to write a new story? What a fantastic answer. What lucky friends I have. I love these friends. They're going to love me. Let me tell you, they're just like, well, we've been queuing up on that website. Okay. I only have rapid fire left for you, but I want to ask you a few questions that are my favorite questions to ask.

1:42:15What is the first thing you do when you wake up? Say thank you to both God and to my mom who passed away last year. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. And you say thank you to your mom? Yes. Like this moment, it's her. She just, she paved away in major, major ways. So I'm in perpetual gratitude. Oh, yeah. I can't think of anything that a mother would want to hear more from her daughter than that. That you thank her every day. Yes. Yes. That's incredible. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed at night? Ah, I said gratitude again of being in stillness. Well, first I'll say, you know, I say prayers with my kids.

1:43:01I enjoy them. They're big personalities. I love that. but then, yeah, laying in an appreciation for the day, for what happened today. Amazing. What are you currently aspiring for in your professional life? Yes. My podcast is audio, and maybe I'm going to be like you and add video. Like, yes, come on now with these outfits. What are you hiding for? Come on. What are you going to dress for in the morning? I have to tell you right now, like I record it literally in my bedroom. Okay, fine. It's the big step. That's peaceful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one day we're going to get the videos going. You do have such a very lovely voice though to tune into.

1:43:46So maybe, I mean, I can understand the reason for doing both. The audio is good. Okay. So maybe a little bit of video. We have it to look forward to. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life? This is a mom thing. So my daughter's doing study abroad in the fall in Ghana, West Africa. Amazing. And I'm going to fly over there with her to set up and let her soar. How old is she? Yes, 19. She's a theater major. And she's going to take like African women playwrights and the African documentary. It's dying of pride. I'm so excited. I mean, that's amazing. What a great trip to do together.

1:44:26Right. That's a real like mom-daughter moment. But I'll, you know, go for the setup. Check it's okay. Check she's doing all right. What is a book that's changed your life? Daughter Drink This Water by Jaya John. I have not read it and I will. You will love it. I will immediately buy it. What is something you valued when you were starting out that you no longer do? What other people think. I'm free. I'm free. and I call it my jubilee. So I'm 51 now. Once I got 50, I'm like, yeah, jubilee. Let's just flow and, yep. Let it go. And what is meant to align will align and what is meant to be released will be released.

1:45:09And it's a good life to be free. Free in your jubilee. Yes. I love that. What's something that you value now that you didn't back in the day? Mutual relationships. You know, I was the strong one. And now I have this circle. We talk about your friends. I have this circle of friends where like any of them could, you could interview and you would love them. Like they're brilliant. They're amazing. And so it's not, it's not one-sided. It's a beautiful flow and an ease. We pour and we receive and I love it. And it's so needed. Yeah. So needed. The best. Lucky you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I love that conversation.

1:45:55If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you love with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reece-Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black.

1:46:31Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado, and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jones Works and WNE, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meekle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me. In football, value isn't just about making flashy plays. It's about consistency, durability, showing up.

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