Kimora Lee They Called Me a B*tch. I Built an Empire Anyway

23:36I mean, it's really something that's pretty, like pretty epic. So I'd really want to kind of go back and understand like, where did that start? Okay, so I was with my ex. I met him very young. I was 16. We're talking about Russell at this point. Yes, my first husband. I met him when I was 16. We were off and on for some years. That's way too young now in hindsight, but you couldn't tell me that. I mean, I'm glad you said it. It's way too young. Yeah. But I thought I was grown. Of course you did. And I thought, because it's the same girl who's living on her own. When I met him, I was already living in Paris.

24:09Then I came to New York. So I go through my modeling. I'm going through my relationship. Things get serious as the years progress on. We actually got married when I was, I want to say early 20s, maybe 21 or 22, because Ming's 26 right now. So early 20s. Russell at the time had a men's clothing line called Fat Farm, P-H-A-T, like pretty hot and tempting. That's the PG version. And we wanted to do a line for women. Everything they would come up with was like, you can imagine, it looked like Fat Farm, which was very classic clothes with an oversized kind of a streetwear fit. So we had baggy jeans, but we also had like Argyle sweaters, right?

24:48Very classic pieces. Pieces that look like they could have been Ralph Lauren or Tommy Hilfiger. Some of our friends who helped us get into the business, right? So very classic mix with like this street edge. When women wanted to wear anything of fashion. Now we're talking women that could not only afford high fashion, right? If you can afford high fashion, great, you have money. You can get whatever you want. Yeah. We're talking about those who could not. There was really nothing for them. And then you would drop down from high fashion. There was this something called contemporary. Like Emma, this is before even you were doing all this.

25:21Actually, you came in when we had these categories, right? These crazy sizes and these things. There was contemporary and that was still a little bit expensive. That's kind of where you are now. And then there's this concept of like, what else is there? There wasn't. Nowadays, that would be street wear. Totally. Nowadays, that would be quicker fashion. And it wasn't then at all, right? We designed to the seasons. It was every few times a year, collections, matching up around the world with your deliveries. It was different. He had a men's line. We wanted to do women's. If you remember women of that time, again, my graduating class, who were the girls that were hot?

25:55Aaliyah. Yes. TLC, right? You think of these girls. Even Janet Jackson, some of her performances. Look at their clothes. They always had on something super sexy, but they had on something oversized. Or like a guy's baseball jersey opened up with like a little bra. Yeah, like overalls, like absolutely. Or like crisscross, this backwards dressing, the black color. Oh, do you remember that? Yes. And all oversized, right? The sideways leaning hat. We don't want that. No. To me at that time, and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. So yes, I went to the big time in Paris, but I'm from St. Louis, Missouri.

26:28But you're still middle of America mentality. Yeah. There was nothing that spoke to women that had this edge of fashion or flair or anything of what I liked. Nothing else of what they liked. And I realized it was, again, a man's world. And the women would kind of like pink it and shrink it. Like just kind of like wear my size. It was my boyfriend's jacket, varsity jacket. Those are even big today. Letterman jacket, baggy clothes, all of these things. And I kept saying, we don't want that. No. We don't want that. And here's why. This is what we want. This is how we move, blah, blah, blah. They would look at me so crazy.

27:03And they would say, well, she's a high fashion model. Because keep in mind, I'm high fashion. I came in from couture. I didn't come in from ready to wear. I did that. But my entrance was couture. So they would look at me and say, okay, she definitely knows what she's talking about. Or as a business move, that's better. Everything was better, but it was under the guise of what a man said. Yeah. Or what a man said you would do. Or how a man said you would do it. That was my husband. And so they started to listen to me and we created this concept, this women's brand called Baby Fat. What was your role then?

27:36Did you have like an official role? I don't think it was an official name. No. Telling them what to think, telling them what to make, telling them what to wear, trying it on, showing you how it was. Like if you look back to like, I don't know, I got nothing but love for you video with Heavy D. All those girls were probably wearing Baby Fat. They had on a little t-shirt. Wow. Said Baby Fat. That was the thing. We made little baby tees. I wanted to say I coined this idea of the baby tee, but I don't think I actually did, but we made it like. I mean, you could say it. Where you took these t-shirts and you wore like literally a kid.

28:06You shrunk them and they were little. Yeah. So everything started to become a little sexier. I would take like the leather crazy pants and make a little hot short. I remember I had this little chocolate hot short that all the girls tell me they have it still to this day that I gave them. I would call upon all of my model friends. He would call upon all of his and Lord knows he had a lot. A lot. It's a different podcast. But, or it could be this one. I mean, that's a whole nother thing. We'll have to go through, we'll have to go through. But we called on all of our model friends and our friends in fashion.

28:36And we started making things that I liked that I thought represented women better, a better fit. These were women that were women of color that were not high fashion. And it was streetwear, but with a flair. And it was what these guys had, but in our size and our kind of style. So this was the onset of the tracksuit. the velour suit. This was the five pocket jean. This was a jean that had stretchy in it. There was such an outsized impact on the culture. And I have to tell you, even going back to when I started Good American, which is nine, 10 years ago now when the original idea was festering, some of the original samples and I went on eBay, I was going on resale sites.

29:20I was like, find me the baby fashions because I knew that the fit of those, the construction of those was so good. But more specifically, it wasn't what everything else was. It wasn't a straight body block, right? It was made to hug and to accentuate the curves. Yeah. Because then that was not popular and nobody was creating for those women. No one was creating for a woman of color and no one was creating for a woman of any size. Did you understand that that was a business proposition there? Or was that just more like a creative point of view? Were you like, no, one second, this is a business strategy here.

29:56No, it became that. I understood there was a hole in the market. Yeah. And although, yeah, I'm skinny and I'm slim and I was modeling because I didn't gain weight until I've gained plenty of weight off and on since then. But I've had kids, I've kids. So I've been up and down and all kinds of things, right? I might've been skinny at the time, but my customers and my cohorts and my peers and my demographic was not. And you understood that. What about this piece? Because again, it's like you've been, you know, a gun for hire for all intents and purposes. You're a model, you're getting paid a fee to go and do a job to this like company that you're essentially creating.

30:30How did you structure that? What was the arrangement? Like, did you own a piece of the business? Yes, of course. Yes. But it was the smallest piece of the business, right? Because there was other guys and other partners and the guys were my ex-husband's, you know, friends. Did you own enough of the business given your contribution? No, no, definitely not. And that was one of those things that I learned. And that's, you know, you live and you learn. I probably made, I think we ended up selling them. Now we're fast forwarding through everything, right? I think we built that company up and probably sold it for a hundred and something million dollars.

31:03I probably got 20 million of that or less out of a hundred something million dollars. And the entire sale was based on baby fat, which you could look at the date. because when we sold it, there was, Fat Farm was obsolete. It was still there, but it was, that was not what you were selling it for. You're selling it for a baby fat. And I only learned this because people would tell me like, oh, you have to come to work today. We're having this meeting with these bankers. We're going to sell it. And I'm like a little confused, but a little excited. What did you miss when you sit down now because you're an incredible businesswoman and you've been there not just for yourself, but also for your family.

31:36So what did you miss going back in that time? I missed all of the preliminary conversations. I missed all of the conversations about how great the brand was, all of the numbers that were turned in, all of the numbers on the business. You weren't paying attention. No, not that I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't privy to the fact that these businesses took place. It was literally, who of my partners now, then, do we know now? So Bobby Shriver was one of my partners. He's my kid's godfather. He's a Kennedy. Bobby Shriver was one. I'm telling on folks today, Lior Cohen was one. Oh yeah, we all know Leor.

32:11Like, I mean, we can go through these partners of who they were and they could, I don't know how much of this is public and how much it's not. The number that we sold it for is public. You can see, you can deduct my amount and see the amount that was left. And there was a few other partners that were more like Garmentos and people that you might not know their name. The reason I say those names is because these names have gone on in politics and gone on in music and gone on to do these things. So they definitely knew what they were doing. And they were much older than me, right? Leor must be way older than you.

32:37Or anyone like that. But I was just not just, you know, they were 20 years older than me, 15 years older than me. So what was it like mentally and emotionally? Because I think you sold the company around 2010. And to me, the Baby Fat name was synonymous with Kimora Lee. Like I thought, you, Baby Fat. Like that's how we put it together. I remember when I did my first show and it was like this, like Spire with Emma Reed. And it was Baby Fat. And I came in to look. And this was when I probably had DJ Cassidy or Ronson. We were going through the music and I looked up and it said Baby Fat. And I'm like, oh, and I was like, it should say by Kimora Lee Simmons.

33:12And that was the logo, but it wasn't up on that wall. From that time forward, you know, we had it and it made like a big deal. I learned to kind of take my seat at the table if you would, right? Don't you talk about that all the time? And so it wasn't that I wasn't paying attention. I was paying attention so well. It was the fact that I wasn't privy to some of this information. Also because of the way that it started. The way that I started was under Fat Farm. And that's a key point because everybody's always like, well, if she didn't have that, then she wouldn't have had the rest. And that's fair to say, but it's what did I do once I got my foot in the door?

33:46That no one did for me. But sometimes I learned, and this is another trick of the game, being in that room. It's not always that you got a chance to be in the room and be the biggest light and the biggest mouth and the brightest thinker. And I'm talking then, 30 years ago, in a room full of men and bankers and people that say, this is great. We're going to sell this. You're going to get all this money. I didn't get all this money. But do you know who got all this money? Was my husband. And at that time, I was told and I was raised and taught that that was good enough. My husband getting it was the same as me getting it.

34:24But it wasn't. And I did not learn that until later when other things started happening. And I said, oh, you know what? I don't want to be here. I want out. Can I stand on my own two feet? Well, I built this and that. I did this. My kids. Well, no, no. You got this much of that. You got this much of that. When you start to go and look at things and try to split them up or get your business fairness, that's when you realize it's a little different. And it's different having a business and having a marriage. Exactly. It's different having a business and having a relationship. It's different having a business and you're single, but you're sleeping with someone on the board.

35:00You know, there's many different kinds of things. I had a business, which was my first child, then came Ming and I had a husband. And my husband was like a bigger than life force at the time, right? In his own right, in terms of like music and everything that they were doing, being the godfather of hip hop. So you kind of learn to take a seat, even if that seat was kind of shotgun. And sometimes it was the, it was the backseat. Well, this is what I love so much about you, Kamara, because I think just that level of honesty and, you know, I think so many women find themselves in a similar position where they know that they are contributing in great ways, but they're not quite sure how to equate that contribution and what it's worth and how it kind of fits into the biggest scheme of what they're doing.

35:46And you're surrounded by people that seemingly know way better than you. and to insert yourself is an imposition. It is like, oh my goodness, like I don't really understand everything that's being said. And my point of view in that is that nobody knows. Most of those people around there are just making it up. And actually you just having the audacity to sit at the table and take your rightful place when you're contributing in that way, that is the thing. And then being able to raise your hand and be like, hey, wait a minute, my contribution is worth X. It's really hard to measure that sometimes for yourself, but nobody is coming to do that for you.

36:26And I guess for you, you have learned that the hard way because you've kind of come full circle and come back for baby for Hatwitch. I just was like, oh my God, that's the coolest thing ever. Not only that, I've started other businesses. Oh, and there's been a bunch, right? Now about getting your structuring it the right way, right? A lot of the things I've learned in my life and lessons that I've learned in my life, I've learned from very great people who are most of the time men. A lot of the times they were women, but that came later. In the beginning, they were men. I could be really honest and say exactly the same.

36:59I think that men have an ease in which they share information because they do that all the time. They drop the numbers. They tell you who they did the deal with. They'll tell you the lawyer that brokered it. They'll tell you how much they paid the lawyer that brokered it. And there is just this ease of information. And one of the biggest reasons I started this podcast was so that we could start to have an ease of the information and a mistake that you made could be something that somebody else who's sitting at home in a similar situation where they know their contribution is meaningful, that they can actually take their rightful seat and ask for what they need and not end up in the same situation.

37:33the same situation. And I've seen so many women that you would not believe women that we know, women that you and I know very, very well. We, women that I've known 20, 30 or so years, women that are like the most beautiful, the most successful, the sexiest women that you would know. These women are my friends. These women are my family. These women are my comrades. I can tell you crazy shit that every single one of us has gone through with men and business, no matter how big and successful you seem like you are. Some of the pitfalls and some of the things. And that's why I always will be there to help the next woman because there was nobody there to help me like that.

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40:42What is something that every founder that's building a brand needs to know before they start that nobody tells you? Read the fine print, I think is a good one. We don't read enough at the fine print and it gets finer and finer and it's longer and longer and it's harder to read but it's important. Even if it comes to something like the usage on your phone, read the fine print. When you downloaded whatever app, read the fine print because in that app it probably took over your whole thing. It's probably spying on you and watching your whole family and you gave it permission. Read the fine print.

41:13Something you want to tell us, Gamora, what happened? I learned a lot. We can go back through that later. The text generation. I love that. Read the fine print. No one's going to do it for you. And what you think that you deserve or what you think you are owed, it comes down to the black and white of it. And a lot of women, those aforementioned women that I was talking about in the beginning, didn't have that fine print covered. They didn't have the right signatures. We don't necessarily know what questions to ask. And I think that can sometimes be the problem. What was it like for you emotionally as you exited baby fat?

41:47You understood that you'd been given, than, you know, perhaps less than you were worth? So when we sold the company, I stayed on as an officer of the company. So then that was still, I had a new contract. I stayed there for years. Russell was gone quite quickly after that for some other issues. So I became the head of Fat Fashions, the president and the CEO. And that was great. And then I stayed there for some years, quite a few years. And then when my contract was coming up again, I didn't renew. And then I went on and then that, I think they sold it after that. And then I went around because when I got it back, it was from probably one or two buyers, you know, later.

42:24What made you want to get it back? Well, here's the thing. I started other things along the way, like JustFab, which is like a baby fat version. I worked with them when they started it. Let's say that. And I was there as well as a president and CEO, the creative director. So I realized that that niche for that kind of brand. I mean, I'm talking down to my Pantone of pink, my script, my font, the fit of my clothes, the style of the shoe or the pump or whatever it is, right? A brand DNA, I guess. And I realized that that brand DNA, this is years ago. We're talking now, right? 10 years ago, maybe 50, you know, we're talking some, not today, just I'm realizing that that brand DNA didn't go away.

43:05I realized that there is a DNA there that I have used, that I have created, that other people have used. And so I think it was just the right calling and timing. I don't know. Usually when you want your brand back, it's a little bit tricky because you're going to end up paying too much and they're going to get you for the nostalgia of your name or your parent's name or your first pet dog, Sparky, whatever it was that you put into your business. And you cannot do that. You really do build these things up to let them go, right? It's like letting your child go in the world. So getting it back was something that I knew I wanted, but I didn't know how.

43:38And it just took time and years. And you have it back now? And I have it back now. And it's a little bit different now because, right, you don't do, now it's more D to C, which I feel like you know very well. It's not so much retail. It's not brick and mortar, which means freestanding stores. You know, it used to be that you worked your way through the system, through the buying and the selling, and then you end up on the floor of a department store and then you sell off. Now that sell off is lifestyle. That has moved up, right? Those retailers are like mainstream now. Things have changed. But it's also a resurgence of fashion and branding, which was another thing that we created at the time, having the access to all of these artists and things, the idea of the branding.

44:21How do you use your eyeballs and your visibility to come and draw those people into something else you're doing? I wanted to talk to you about your girls because you're all in the limelight. And I wonder like how you're thinking, like how you teach them, how you talk to them about business. Is it a conversation that you have? Yes, my kids and I are very close. We talk every day if they're traveling, of which now they're both traveling. They both graduated from college. Ming went to NYU. Yoki graduated from Harvard. Congratulations. Smart girls. She got in like four years early. I think she was accepted at 15.

44:54I mean, that's crazy. So she graduated Harvard at 18. Do you think you protect them from things that they've perhaps never needed to think about? Or do they face very similar challenges? No, a little bit of both. They definitely face their own challenges. I mean, you could look up and see them dating or doing businesses or doing their, I let them go. You don't have a choice because they're adults. Ming is 26 years old. Yogi's 23. They're old enough to think like I could do what I want and you can't tell me, but like not old enough to like pay for all the mistakes that you could get into. So you need your mom.

45:25How has being a parent made you reflect on how you were treated in the industry back in the day? That's tricky. So from when I was in the business to when they were in the business now was like, we've gone through like movements. You know, we've gone through like Me Too. I didn't have any personal issues of my own, but obviously people very close to me have. And in that all the time. Was that surprising to you? Me Too, the movement? No, the groundswell around the people close to you. Were you taken aback and surprised? Well, no, because coming out of all some of these relationships, all of, I say all, but some of those big relationships in my life, I've always been pretty vocal about it.

46:06And I've always said things that I thought about people that were around me, whether they were my friendly, I call them friendlies or not. You know, I've been pretty vocal and I've grown up with some of these people, most of these people, I'm being modest. I've grown up with all of these people. Most people, although I was very young on all of these lists and all of these things, I probably know those people. I'm looking at it like you did it. You did it. And I told, but nobody was listening to me. Or sometimes they would, but they would brush it under the rug. It was different, right? It's a patriarchal world that we live in.

46:34I don't want to come here and sit here like I'm just bashing all the men, but I'm giving you the hierarchy and the structure in which we live. So me yelling about thinking someone is a freak or someone is a weirdo or someone did something, if it's not egregiously a something, no one's really listening to that. But I said it, you could go back and you could look. I've always tried to maintain, you know, what I thought and my honesty and my integrity of my version of the obscene people around, what I thought. But it was a little bit, you know, when you say like groundswell, it was like, I don't know, a tornado, like a tsunami or something.

47:09It wiped out so many people that we had, so many guys of color, so many black people, a whole industry. It seemed like not every whole industry and so many white people too, but yes, a lot of people. Also, but of my, you know, crew of my crew of hip hop industry, of a certain genre of music. Well, I think that it hit the entertainment industry in a really, really big way. And I think that for anyone that was around at that time, it was a moment of reckoning and it was a moment of huge reflection. And like, you know, I think that the ramifications and the ripple effects will be, you know, there forever.

47:47And listen, the world has changed for the better because of that movement. Like I feel that certainly as a woman that we are far better off for that movement. And, you know, while there was, you know, people I think complain about there being collateral damage, but all the best movements is collateral damage. There's collateral damage on both sides. And I know women, many, many women that were involved on the upside and the down. and I know men that were involved on the upside and the down, both sides, on the side of an acute, as an accuser and as a victim on both sides. I've known lots of people.

48:20I've seen people and I've said, that story is not quite accurate. We were all there. We'll go off. And there's other people that I have said, that story is very mild. You know good and damn well what you did. So sit down and lick your wounds before something else happens, right? So it's been some intense moments of navigating, to say the least. I feel like that's an understatement. and we should leave it there. Exactly. Understatement of the year. One of the things that I was like, literally, I mean, we were all talking about it recently was this America's Next Top Model doc. And you weren't part of it.

48:58And I was like, I have got to, but what do you mean you don't know why? I don't know why I wasn't part of the doc. Were you asked, not asked to be? No. What? I was in it though. Yes, but like, I imagined that you would be like a talking head. And Tyra is one of my kids' godmothers as well. Although we haven't talked in quite a long time, but we used to be very, very close. I started Top Model with her. I was on the first season of Top Model. I mean, this is what I know. I almost had to check myself. I was like, was I confused? Was I living in England? But I was in the documentary, right? I'm sure I was.

49:29You were kind of in the documentary, but I wanted to see you like sitting there like this now, like telling me what was what. Oh, yeah, I don't know about that because I think some of the other people who are there dealing with the brand probably don't want to see this right here because maybe it's too, I don't know, close for comfort. I'm not really sure. You have to ask them that. Oh, okay. It's really weird. I'm not sure. It was weird. I know. I heard a lot about it, but I didn't see it. Do you think that that was just like a portrait of a moment in time? Do you believe that like we're being too sensitive now?

49:59What's your thought on your takeout? Because you're always so vocal. It was a crazy moment in time. I think that a lot of the things they talk about in it, And that's probably why they don't call me because I'm not bound by anything and I'm definitely going to say what I think. A lot of them are bound by stuff when you do that. But a lot of what was portrayed leading up to this documentary, I'm not talking about the documentary, I'm talking about all of the talk associated with leading up to this and about the industry and the models and the brand were true, were very true. And we lived through that, like treacherous moments with models.

50:35But then they had, I guess, this documentary that kind of all of these things culminated. I don't think people were being too serious. I mean, too sensitive about it. I think it was, you know, mostly true. And I feel like a lot of the essence of that was harnessed into making this documentary. But to me, it looks like a double-edged sword. The whole making of that thing. And I think probably they're going to do another season or something like that. So one thing's going to lead into the next. I think it's great branding. Maybe you could go in season two. That's like season 32. I don't even know what season that is.

51:10They've been around for a very long time. But it was treacherous. And it was a modeling time. I mean, these were girls that were young girls that wanted a contract. It was TV, the dawn of putting any type of modeling competition like that on TV. So it was a lot of, the perfect storm of a lot of things. But it was a huge hit. Why did you not go back and do another season? I talked with them about going back a lot, a lot. And I just feel like over the years, we could never get it, you know, together. Even as it changed networks and the brand would say like, you have to go and get Kimura. We wanted you in there.

51:42We wanted to see you. Maybe in the future, you never, never know. But I'm also not going to be that mean. I'm not going to like break. I feel like my thing is like the editing and the cuts. You know what I mean? I'm trying to tell the girls, but like have a little bit of heart about it. Have a little bit of heart about it. A little bit.

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54:29so before we wrap a quick reminder that start with yourself is available for pre-order and tickets for the live shows are available now starting april 15th we're coming to new york los angeles san francisco chicago dc boston atlanta and london visit emagreed.com for tickets and full tour details i cannot wait okay before we wrap up i want to just make sure we touch on my favorite subject, which is money. I want to talk to you about the lessons that you've learned over the years, because you've spoken really honestly and frankly about what you perhaps should have got and you didn't for a myriad of different reasons.

55:08How do you think about money now in your life? What lessons have you learned and how have you kind of developed your understanding around money and what you should get? That's a lot. It's a lot about, that's a discussion about having your seat at the table, not being afraid to pull up and present yourself and your ideas and own them as yours, not being afraid to pull that seat back and have it and sit down. I've learned just so much. I've been at this a long, long time, like decades. If you count how long I've been modeling, I'm probably one of the ones that have been around the longest. If you count how long my little brand, my little brand, because I'm not Ralph Lauren, right?

55:45It's been going on 30 years, I think. Did you make enough money given your contribution over all of these years and decades? Definitely. I feel like not, but I will say that most of the people that I've done business with in the past that I thought maybe got way more than me at the time. And we all chose to do what we have, whatever we did. My thing was always building and investing because I'm a mom. I am better off than almost all of those people now. Exponentially. Why is that? I think they made different decisions in life. Whereas I was always more of a protector and like, you know what they say about a woman?

56:20Like if you give us a house, we'll make a home. If you give us a seed, we'll make a baby. We'll make a family. We'll multiply that. I was busy multiplying and saving and investing. I did that by investing all of my businesses. I'm a big shareholder and it's public and Celsius, or we have rock star. We have drinks. I have skincare brands. Those are mine. And I learned, I think about the power of money, but investments, those are investments. Who taught you that? Oh, wow. I learned that by trial and error. I learned by all of the things that we just said, all the guys and all the people that have taken advantage of me.

56:55I remember once when I was younger, to early 20s, my partner, mate at the time, which you can figure out who that was because we did the names, came in and said, okay, you have to get a lawyer. We have to talk about some of these things. When you find that lawyer, here's my lawyer. And you can call them up and then we have to talk about some things, contract things. And I was like, okay, I had no clue, contract things. I looked at the lawyer and I was, who is this lawyer? This lawyer at the time came from one of our really big, prominent friends had given them this lawyer. I didn't know what to do.

57:28I didn't know what to discuss. And so I called the prominent friend's wife because I didn't know. So you got this lawyer. I'll tell you who it was. It was from Donald Trump. Donald, thank you. Donald gave us this lawyer. Oh, is that? Come on. Donald gave us this lawyer. Okay. Years ago, not me. He gave it to my ex. To Russell. He comes and says, yeah. You have to have a lawyer. You have to go get this to talk about X, Y, Z. So you call who? Melania? No, this was years ago. Oh, this was Ivana. I know all the wives, all the children, all the marriages. You know, we were friendly. You've been around.

58:01As I have been with several presidents and several many. No doubt. This transcends the sides and the teams and the parties, and it transcends a lot. You can Google. A quick Google search will show you that everybody knows everybody. We know you were there. Uh, so yeah. And it also show you that you can have friends or friendlies and they don't necessarily do all of the things right in the public eye that you think they should, or that they said they would in the private sector, right? It's different. No doubt. So I called Ivana and she has this accent and she says, darling, don't worry. Who is this lawyer?

58:34She looks at the, and she says, oh, I know this lawyer. He was there when we got married. I will give you my lawyer. It's so-and-so. That's the lawyer who works with this lawyer all the time on the other side. So I took my lawyer back. I went and hired the lawyer and I went back and I gave him the lawyer. I got so many phone calls, okay, from my ex at the time and so many other people that said, what in the hell are you doing? Do you know the lawyer that you got, you know, expensive this is? Do you know what all they're going to put us through arguing back and forth over the terms of this contract that I didn't even know I had to do?

59:09Why would you do that? Where would you get this person? How did you even do this? And I said - What is this contract for? I was young. I was not married at the time. It was a last minute contract that someone comes in and says, you have to sign this. What did you do? It was a prenup that I didn't know I needed. That I had. And when I divorced, you could go and see my divorce records are filed in the state of down at the courts. You can see I got nothing from this man when I got a divorce. Did you keep the lawyer? I had the lawyer. I know the lawyer to this day. The point is that - Such a shit deal that you ended up with nothing?

59:40No, they didn't do a shit deal, but I didn't get anything out of it. I didn't get payments. I didn't get spousal support. I did get child support. That's very public. But that's it. And I only got that sometimes. I didn't get that all the time. But the point is, he came in screaming, livid. I was so upset. He was so upset saying, why would you get this lawyer? And that's the point of what I was, this long story of me coming to tell you. I did not know. You got a lawyer. You told me the lawyer came from so-and-so. All I knew was to go to so-and-so's counterpart and get another lawyer recommendation.

1:00:15So the question was, how did you learn? And then these lessons that we've worked our way through. And the answer was the fucking hard way. I always learn by my counterparts, which are men, and they're not always the most scrupulous. But I've navigated my way just to kind of do a quid pro quo or even just kind of to hold. You know, they say 10 toes down. I've had to hang on and toast out. And I learned every time, okay, if they do this, you do this. And I've also learned lots of times in the business, every single time that I did something that someone taught me, I was a bitch. I was impossible.

1:00:53Women don't do that. You are costing too much. Why would you do this? But I learned it from them. Them meaning the men, them meaning the partner, them meaning the husband, and whoever it was at the time, the senator, the this, the that. I learned it from someone else. And then when I came around, they're always yelling about, why would you do this? This costs so much. This is overkill. So you were going to overkill me. And what was I going to do? Just sign on the dotted line? Lie down. So that's why I said, read the fine print. And that's why I say, even though I've gone through so, I've been through so many experiences with these people and these guys, I also wouldn't have it any other way.

1:01:29I've had the best teachers in some of these guys and some of them have not been so scrupulous. That too has been a teacher for me and some of the lessons that I've learned. And everybody knows that. Everybody knows now, like, don't mess with Kimora. She's going to come in and tell you how it is. Oh, I think that's your reputation. For sure. For sure. I've learned it the hard way and I've learned it from being, you know, BS'd through so much that you have to eventually speak up and say, I'm not going to take that. Has it hardened you, do you think? Oh my gosh, I am, yes. But I am a Taurus. So I think I have a hard shell.

1:02:01and inside, if you're able to get in there, is a softer side. But it takes a bit, right? It's not like, come on in. That's why I've been married several times. And I have all my kids. I believe in love. I try again. If you ask me to marry you right now, Emma, I would say yes. You're married already, but I would say yes. I'll send you my lawyer's details. You know? You know? I try and I believe in it. And then sometimes things come up and it's okay. Don't be afraid to restart. Don't be afraid. And I've had this conversation with many, many of our friends that are good friends in common. It's okay.

1:02:32It's okay that you thought you had the relationship of life, honey. Drop it on the floor and drop him too. Drop it. Don't be afraid of, you know, your mistakes and know what you're going to tolerate. And another thing, you will be surprised how many times to you, it's to you how it feels because to you an affair might be a big deal and to your neighbor, it might not. Different women accept different things. I learned early on when I wasn't going to accept. And so I had to get the hell out. I had to like move the hell around. Everyone doesn't feel like that. Some people, I'm like, can you understand?

1:03:03Do you understand that he was doing all of this? Look at all these pictures. And they're like, my dear, calm down. I've learned the hard way through many of these, many of these lessons. You really have. I love them all. I'm very, very thankful. I'm very, very humbled. Humble. I'm grateful. I wouldn't have it any other way. And one thing about Kimora, in all of that reputation, they don't say Kimora's a liar. No. They don't say Kimora's a liar. No, they don't. So if Kimora said you stole it or Kimora said you cheated it, you cheated it. And Kimora has receipts. I'm the queen. I'm the queen of receipts.

1:03:36And so are some of our friends. And you know what I mean, right? We are documenters. You are nothing with that. Documentary makers. Don't play with us. You gave the facts. You gave the files. You gave it all. And you... I learned. And I learned when to let that go. And I learned when to hold on. Right? You learn these things. Just keep it tucked away in your pocket. I'm interested to understand what having like this big life and this big career that you've had for so long now, what does success even feel like to you in this chapter of your life? It's hard to measure like success. I think it is when other people come up to me and say, you've made a difference in my life.

1:04:15Or I read your book. I made a book, Fabulosity years ago, and it has so much of me in it and all of my anecdotes and all these things. When someone says, I read your book, I saw your show, I heard this interview that you did and it helped me start a business, get out of an abusive relationship, get out of an unfair, unjust situation, start a new business, start a new relationship, get married, get out of a marriage, whatever these things are. When you hear of other people that have taken your tales and your journey and have made a better life for themselves, I think that's a good way to measure success.

1:04:54Like, you know, we've made it and I can name a lot of people. I can name a lot of women that have like my baby fat tattoo. I think that's success to me. That's how I measure it. My kids, when I see my kids are happy and healthy and thriving, if I can help the next person do that, and I see a lot of that in you. If I could help the next person, that is success. I wonder what you aspire to now. I aspire to have peace. I aspire to have happiness. And I have these things, but it's a job. It's an effort. It takes an effort, right? It's not just given to you that you would have peace. It's not just given that you would have stillness.

1:05:32It's not just given that you would have clarity. You have to work on some of these things, especially in the chaos that we live in. So I think I aspire to have those things. and I'm building those things for myself. I aspire to have a big family. I came from a small family. I think that's why I have so many kids. I aspire to leave this place a better place than I found it. And I feel like my life and just my being is aspirational, right? The fact that my mom is an immigrant. She was not born in this country. No one else in my family was born. On my mom's side was from here. The idea that you can come, that you can have nothing.

1:06:09And this is a story that we don't talk about now. We don't talk about now how you can make it when you had nothing. We don't talk about the immigrant families that made it. Like now that's not a popular topic, but it's my topic. The fact that you can make something out of nothing. Remember that. And remember this place that we are in. Yes, it takes all of us and we have to work together and do all these things, but it was built on the backs of brown people, people that look like me and you. Don't be afraid to take your place. Don't let somebody else erase your book. Don't let somebody else rewrite your history.

1:06:38I'm very vocal about that. And I'm not like overly an activist. I need to fight everything and everybody. But if you say something I don't agree with, and we just talked about lots of these people, we're my friendlies. I don't have a problem telling you that you said that and that was screwed up. I don't have a problem telling you that that person that you're talking about, that person over there is the same as my mom over here and my family. Are you sure you're clear about what you're saying? Okay, you did that just on the stage and in the moment. Watch yourself. I don't have a problem saying that, but so many people do.

1:07:06So I think take every day as it comes, but know where you came from and where you're going. And don't be afraid to embrace your journey, your imperfections, but your history. Because that's how you know where you're going. They definitely say that. It's like one of those cliche things, but it's true. It's so true. Okay, I'm moving to rapid fire. The first thing you do in the morning? Drink water for blood flow. It thins your, gets your blood going. And then I reach for my phone, which is terrible. I didn't want to say that, but that's the truth. That's all right. You're truthful. Last thing you do at night?

1:07:38Oh, the last thing I do at night? Reflect. I guess it's like prayer. I reflect on my life, what you want it to be, how you go to sleep, what you are taking into that other realm of sleep and beyond. It really sticks with you and you can really do magical things in that time. So I think I reflect. What's the best business advice you've ever ignored for a good reason? Quite a few times I have ignored. Lord, you should do that. It's going to make you a lot of money. And it just wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right time. And it was a mess in the end. I've never regretted it. A full day with no makeup or a full day in flats?

1:08:14A full day with no makeup. I don't wear makeup unless I'm working. But my heels, I kind of love. Yeah, you're a heel girl. I do wear flats though, but I love my heels. Tell me about one of the wildest days in your life using one word. Who wrote these questions? This is a new one. Using one word. tell us about the wildest day in your life? Fucked. Who thought of that? I don't know. That's the best answer. I wanted to be like fucking chaotic. Fucking hilarious. Just fucked. I'm like, how did I use fucking in a word? One word. That's for the good and bad. She got it. Just listen. I'm fully taking it.

1:08:57Don't judge. Don't judge. Zero judgment. We listen and we don't judge. Okay. last question serious question what is a book that changed your life? so many a book Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle Don't Believe Everything You Think is a more modern one easy read Power of Now is like an all time you know great one I remember back then Eckhart was our friend and we took Eckhart to Oprah and then she became his like guru and then she did like a book club and she did all these things and then he blew up but I mean that's how I discovered him through Oprah he was transformation Actually, you introduced us to Eckhart.

1:09:34Thank you. A thousand percent. Again, all roads lead back to Kamora. It was Russell's guru. It was our guru at the time. And he was a transformational person. Yes. So simple. Yeah. But so transformational. So genius. We made that introduction. There you go. I'll take that one. Amazing. Kamora, thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Ella. Just mesmerizing.

1:09:58If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Executive producer, Ashley McShann, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reece Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Lagrasso. Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black.

1:10:34Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company, and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meekle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

1:11:17so before we wrap a quick reminder that start with yourself is available for pre-order and tickets for the live shows are available now starting april 15th we're coming to new york los angeles san francisco chicago dc boston atlanta and london visit emagreed.com for tickets and full tour details i cannot wait