Simon Sinek: Don’t Be a Toxic Leader

23:44Why? So they'll have better lives. I did the same thing. I'm like, I got to tell you this thing. It's so powerful. I got to share it with you. And I would help my friends find their why. And my friends started finding renewed passion in their work. Some of them even started businesses. And they wanted to share it with their friends. So they called me and said, can you come to my apartment to tell my friends about this? And I said, sure. and I literally would stand in someone's living room and talk about this thing called the Y. And we'd get one of those supermarket, you know, crudité things, you know, with the celery and the dip in the middle with a big plastic lid.

24:14Like you'd buy one of those and put it on the table. And I would talk about this thing called the Y. And some of their friends would say, can you help me find my Y? And I would help people for a hundred bucks on the side. And it wasn't supposed to be a career. It was a side gig. But I found that it brought me such joy and it made me feel so myself that that's all I wanted to talk about. I'd go for meetings and people like, Like, so what do you offer? And I wouldn't even like do the thing. I would just be like, okay, I got to tell you this. And I start drawing circles on napkins, you know? You love a circle.

24:45I do love a circle. I do love a circle. I've seen it. The more people I told about it, the more people wanted it. Then somebody said, can you come talk to our company? And so, and somebody said, you should write a book. And I was like, I don't know how to write a book, you know? And I had a meeting with a publisher. I had a 29 minute meeting. And three days later, they offered me a book deal. It's not because I'm smarter than anybody else. and it's not because I had more connections. My connections emerged because the more that I started with why, the more I learned to speak about what my why was.

25:15People who believed what I believed said, there's somebody I need you to meet. I didn't know anybody in publishing. I met somebody who was inspired by whatever it is I was saying. She says, I need you to meet somebody. I met him because sure. You know, I talked to him on the phone. Turns out he's an editor at a big publisher. He says, you need to meet my boss, who's the publisher. I went, okay. And so he made the meeting for me. My agent didn't do it. It was these, the more I talked about why, the people who believed what I believed wanted me to meet people, not for me. They don't care about me.

25:49It's because like you said, I put what you were feeling into words. I helped you see something that you knew to be true. Now you had some clarity. And so I was giving them clarity and I was giving them words. And I was now the tool. They wanted to share me with other people for them. Not for me. Yeah. And so things started getting crazy quickly. And so, you know, start with why. And I just came out with the 15th. I mean, it's embarrassing, but the 15th anniversary edition just came out. That's crazy. I know. And it was fun to edit because I was like, do I have to rewrite this thing? Is it still relevant?

26:22And I went through it and read it and we'd like change the grammar. And like, we put a couple of, like one of the most common questions I got on the first edition, I wrote about TiVo. And like all the young people be like, what's a TiVo? So I, instead of taking the case out, I just went and explained what a TiVo was. So it was like, I brought it into the modern era and like made some explanations of things that I took for granted back when I wrote it. But the amazing thing about putting out that 15th anniversary edition, it's 100 % true. It's 100 % relevant. Nothing's changed. Nothing has changed, which was super fun.

26:54But all of these opportunities came about because people who believed what I believed wanted me to meet somebody they thought that would help them. And I just kept saying yes. My point is that start with why book, which is now, you know, a decade and a half old. That's my Bible. Like, that's how I live my life. And even though I don't talk about it as much anymore, it's in me. It's who I am. It's what I believe. And I gave away the entire game plan that I used to build a brand, to build a business, to work at scale, to bring these things to life in a compelling way that had relevance in other people's lives.

27:36And it's all in there. I learned to start with why. I learned to speak with why. I learned to think with why. I learned to make decisions with why. And I was obsessed with the law of diffusion of innovations, which is work with the early adopters, work with the people who believe what you believe. The majority of the people who just want what's in it for me, you know, if it doesn't work, will I get my money back? You stay away. I stay away. And I allow other people to help me build and carry the message. And so literally that is my blueprint for how I did everything. And so all of these years later, you still believe exactly what you wrote and it's still working.

28:12A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And tell me this, when somebody finally discovers their why, let's say they go through this exercise and they figure out their why. Is it like, you know, when you start a new habit, do you drift off sometimes enough to find your way back to your why? I'm trying to understand. Of course. How do people constantly remind themselves? It's about balance. It's about balance, right? Of course. Like sometimes you spend a few months and you are unhealthy and you get into some bad habits or stress gets in the way or work gets in the way or whatever it is, of course.

28:47And so I, yeah, of course I veer from why. This is why I talk about balance, not about right or wrong. I talk about the work to stay in balance. Of course I fall out of balance. And so like anybody who has any kind of belief structure, I surround myself with symbols, right? If you're religious, very often you hang a religious icon in your home or your doorway or around your neck. And it's a little reminder to you of the life you want to live, where you put pictures of your family as a reminder of what's important to you. I wear an orange strap on my watch. I always have a flash of orange somewhere on me.

29:18It's not for you. It's for me. It's a reminder. Optimism. It's my job, right? And it's a reminder to me. These little things. I have the word inspire embroidered in some of my clothes. You know, it's sometimes in the bottom part of the shirt, whatever you call it. Yeah. Gets tucked into my jeans. Like, you're not going to see it. I see it when I get dressed in the morning. It's not there for you. It's there for me. So I'm surrounded by pictures on my desk, you know, things hanging in my home, things on my body, my, you know, little flashes. I've chosen orange. I've chosen the word optimism as a reminder to me of my job to help me stay in balance.

29:54Do I get it wrong? Oh my God. All the time. A million times a day. Give me another little practical tip for people that want to be constantly reminded of their purpose. Because I love that. Like I look at you now, you've got the orange on your socks, you have the orange there. It's like, that would be a key thing to do. What else do you think that people should do? You have to talk about it obsessively. Obsessively. You've been talking about it for over two years. Like it's all I want to talk about. Like I love talking about ideas, but when I discovered why, it's all I wanted to talk about. It's the only thing I wanted to talk about.

30:25And if you look at the progression in the things that I've written, the talks that I've given, the videos that I put out, there's a through line through all of it. From why, to Leaders Eat Less, to Infinite Game, to what I'm working on now about friendship, to the companies I've built, to the app that we're developing, to the training we've done for... Because now we're training coaches on how to help their clients find their why. We're doing that now. So if you look at the through line through all of my work, it's about relationships. It's about people. It's why I'm writing about friendship now.

30:57It's about... and the businesses that I've built. Yes, it's about leadership and culture and all of that stuff. But reality, it's about people getting along with people and people taking care of people. That's what it's about.

31:13It's 2026. And if you're still paying rent without Bill, it might be time to rethink that. Rent is one of the biggest expenses most people have every month. And traditionally, it just clears your account and that's it. Built is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense rent with built every rent payment earns you points that can be redeemed towards flights hotels lift rides amazon.com purchases and more and here's what's new built members can now earn points on mortgage payments as well so whether you rent or own you can get rewarded wherever you live and unlock benefits with more than 45 ,000 restaurants fitness studios pharmacies and neighborhood partners.

31:54If it were me, I'd redeem my points towards travel through the Built travel portal or even everyday things like lift rides. It's practical and it adds up over time. It's simple. Paying rent is better with Built and now owning a home can be better with Built too. Earn rewards and get something back wherever you live. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbuilt.com slash emma that's j-o-i-n-b-i-l-t.com slash emma make sure to use our url so they know we sent you the start with yourself tour kicks off on april 15th in new york city tickets are on sale now at emmagree.com

32:38do you think finding your wire has helped make you successful of course I have I have solid foundation I have more confidence I have a calm I have things that I can easily say no to it's a filter for you yeah I mean I remember when I was getting going and I didn't know how to I had this idea and I didn't know what to do with it and I knew I didn't want to be a consultant but that was the easy way to start so I did start that way and I would get advice from people who were much more successful than me made much more money than me. And I was living, I mean, I was really like paycheck to paycheck.

33:11Like it was, I was like, it was a, you know, it took a while, but it was fun. I mean, I wouldn't call them rough. They were, you know, austere maybe, but not rough because it was fun without my why the money was stressful with my why. I was, I just was like, it's okay. It'll be fine. But I would get advice from people who are much more successful than me. And they would tell me to do things that were probably right, but it didn't feel right to me. And instead of me just going, that doesn't feel right in the face of empirical evidence that they're more successful than me, I now would have filtered to say, no, I'm not following their advice.

33:44I'm not doing it. And here's the reason why, because it'll put me out of balance. It won't advance my cause. It's not what I want to pursue. And I'm willing to make money more slowly to do the right thing than make money quickly and do the wrong thing. And I ignored their advice and things have gone just fine. Yeah, it's really worked out. Who taught you to communicate so well? Oh, that's one of the blessings of having ADHD. I struggled as a student in school. I can't read very well. Did you get a diagnosis? No, I only got diagnosed in my thirties. I can, I mean, I can physically read. I can read fine, but I'm, I'm very bad if you give me like a textbook and blocks of text.

34:24Like even now, if you send me a long email. You're bad with textbooks? Yeah. If you send me - After all those books? No, you can't be. I've written more books than I've read. Is that true? That's a true statement. I used to carry a lot of shame that I struggled to read. I mean, I'm super dyslexic. I actually don't have a problem reading, but I carried a lot of shame around it and my inability to connect with text sometimes and to take information in quickly. So I struggled to read. I can't learn from reading because my mind wanders. So how do you learn? Oh, having a chat. What I had to learn to do is I had to, I couldn't skip class because if I don't hear it, I'm not learning it.

35:04I can't just skip class and go read the book. It's not going to work. And I had to learn to ask questions of my friends and of my teachers. And then I had to learn to say back what I think they're saying to me to prove that I understand it. Because if I can't say to them what I understand, then I'm going to fail the test. So I can't just ask them and they explain it to me and go, got it. And then I sit in front of the test. I'm a goner. Because we all think we understand it until you have to take the test and then you're done. And so I had to learn to process information that I was asking for, say it back in terms that I can understand that they're affirming that, yes, I'm right and I'm accurate.

35:45Then I have learned it. Now I can go take the test. So that wasn't some, I had to learn that or I would fail school. So you have a choice, fail or find another way. Thank goodness I found another way. Now that's my superpower. I'm a great believer that the solutions we find to the challenges we have as kids become our strengths as adults. Oh, I couldn't agree more. And so, you know, this is a different conversation that, you know, you should have with better qualified people. But, you know, if we help our kids solve every problem, what kind of strengths will they have as adults? Forget about it.

36:17So different conversation. Struggle is a good thing. It's a conversation I would love to have because I'm obsessed with, you know, like I'm a figure it out parent. Yes, struggle and challenge is a good thing. Figure it out. And it's the best thing that you could ever do for anyone. I mean, I spent my whole life just working things out between the age of, I don't know, seven and 15. It was like, I was on my own. And actually, as you quite rightly say, my biggest strengths came out of those times because you just didn't have a choice. You didn't learn anything from when things went well. Do you know the story of Richard Branson, what his mom used to do?

36:53No, tell me. And his mom would drop him off three miles from home and say, see ya. And he would have to walk home and figure out how to get home. And she would say that it would take him hours because he would stop and look at everything and want to like explore everything. It would take him hours to get home. No, clearly don't do that. Not now. Not now. It was all right for Richard in the, you know. In the countryside. Yeah, yeah. He was safe. Back in the, whatever it was, the 50s or the 60s, whatever it was, you know? So yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. But the point is, is that this entrepreneur who's this renowned problem solver who has no fear, where do you think that came from?

37:40It's not genetic. No. It's because his mom, he was put in these difficult situations and he had a mom who pushed him and pushed him and pushed him. Yeah. Our parents obviously play a huge role, but the situations we're in and like when our kids struggle, instead of swooping in, being like, all right, what are you going to do? And I'll tell you, even as an adult, the best leader I ever had, his name is Peter Intimaggio. He was the big boss in the company I worked for. He wouldn't answer a single question. It was so annoying. I'd be like, Peter, this happened. What should I do? He'd be like, I don't know.

38:07What do you think you should do? Like, well, I think we should do this. He goes, well, then you should try that, shouldn't you? And like, or I'd go to him, but Peter, what should I do? He's like, what do you think we should do? Like, if I knew I wouldn't be asking you. He's like, well, you better come up with something Like the freaking bastard wouldn't answer a single question. But what he taught me was self-reliance. What he taught me was to be more resourceful and ask more questions and go dig. And then if you come up with something, try. Try in a little bit to experiment, you know? But yeah, he wouldn't fix anything for me.

38:37It was annoying. So annoying. It sounds so annoying. Just fix it. Just like me as a parent. Just tell me the answer. Make my life easier. What do you got? No, but it's incredible what comes out. You know, I think about this in my kids all the time because they come up with things that I could never, I would never have told them. And I'm like, wow. And it's so individual, right? The way my 11-year-old approaches things and the way my nine-year-old does, it couldn't be further apart. But in that is all the magic of who they are and where they're going to find their strength and where they're going to find, you know, all the great parts and the superpowers of them.

39:10And as leaders, we have to be careful. You and I both have big personalities. We have a lot of opinions, right? I've heard that can be problematic. And when we're in a meeting and somebody's talking about, should we do this or what we do this? We say what we think and a whisper is a shout. And so even though it's a thought, it becomes a, it becomes a, you know, a command or a decision. Or sometimes we do is just say, oh, just make it this, just make it that. And it's usually because we do have opinions. And it's also because sometimes we give in to the pressure and the time, the timing of things.

39:40Yes. But in reality, and I have to be better at this, which is to say, well, what do you think? and defer and sometimes wait and sometimes allow things to maybe not be as efficient. Yeah. Because I'm teaching other people how to make decisions like I was taught how to make decisions. It's a great skill as a leader. And I want to talk to you so much about leadership because you've got such great insights to offer. But one of the things that I love, Simon, that you talk about so much is this idea of helping others. And, you know, I started this show because I really want... The show is so much about becoming and being the best version of yourself.

40:20And you talk about the only way to do things is to do things together. You have this lovely quote, I don't want to kill it, but you say there's an entire section in the bookshop that's called self-help and it should be called help others. And there's no section called help others. There's no section. That's 100 % true. Yeah, like we're obsessed with helping ourselves and I would like us to see obsessed more with helping others. That is true. So why do you think our goal should be in pursuit of something broader than just ourselves. How is that helpful? Well, for better or for worse, we live in the world with other people.

40:51There's no getting away from it. And I don't know a single person who's accomplished anything of note in their lives who did it alone. Some of them may take all the credit, but I still guarantee that somebody took a risk on them. Somebody made an introduction. Somebody said, you got this. Somebody gave them some money. Somebody in their hardest time said, I still believe in you. A million percent. That's why I have such a problem with the term self-made. Because I'm like, I haven't done anything with myself. No, I'm group made. Group made. Yeah, I'm a group made entrepreneur. Yeah, 100%. I mean, people took, I mean, like I told you, my publisher.

41:27I'm an unknown quantity with no followers, no TED Talk, no nothing, no big company, no track record. Just an idiot. Fucking good idea. An idiot with an idea. And he says, I'll give you a book deal. And I had no manuscript, no nothing. I mean, how can I not say thank you to that guy for taking it? Because I talked to other publishers like, well, can you give us a 90-page proposal and tell us what your marketing plan is? And, you know, don't get me wrong. I'm a publisher now and I like those things. But this person took a risk on me. So he's part of my success story. How can he not be? Yeah. Right?

41:59My sister, who through thick and thin, never left my side. How can she not be part of my success story? Right? And we work together now. It's not even my success story. It's our success story. And I said, I mean, I'm obsessive about it. My housekeeper in New York, I remember telling her, I remember like, just so you know, you are part of all of this. I said to her, you don't know, like when I come back from a business trip and I'm exhausted and I'm tired and I walk into my apartment and you come once every two weeks, you know? And you're amazing. And I just want you to know, you take so much pride in what you do.

42:31And I walk into my home and like, because I left it a fricking pigsty and I come home and you have no idea what that does for me to walk in and just be like, ah, you know? And I said, so the energy I have to go out and do it again, in part comes from you and that you're taking care of me. And I mean that a hundred percent. Like I'm obsessed with like all the people in my life who work with pride and work with love and who want to take care of me for no other reason than they kind of get a kick out of me. They are a part of the story. It's not just, it's not just the people with the connections and the thing.

43:03This is somebody who, and it's 100 % true. It's 100 % true. And you believe that true fulfillment can only come when your larger goals, your larger pursuit is in something like bigger than just you. You have to be helping others. You have to be helping others. I mean, we, first of all, if you look at all of the things that we want in life, like we want to be trusted and trusting, right? Everybody wants that. Okay, well, here's some bad news for you. You don't build trust from people by offering them help. You build trust by asking for it. Giving someone the opportunity to serve, right? Is an act of service.

43:42A friend of mine - Say that again for me, Simon. Giving somebody the opportunity to serve is an act of service. I think that's such an amazing framework because there'll be so many people sitting, listening to this thinking, how do I help someone? I have so little, but you're actually saying, allowing someone to help you. Let someone in. Being vulnerable, being open about what you need. Letting someone in. Let someone in. Is an act of service in itself. It is. It's like reverse. It is more than an act of service. It is an essential component of being human. We're social animals. We need each other.

44:14And people want to feel needed. People want to feel wanted. And people want to feel like they matter. Nobody will feel like that if you just go to them and go, you matter. Write it on your mirror in the morning. You matter. Right? Daily affirmations aren't going to do that. Okay? They're a salve. They'll feel good in the moment and then you will forget. 20 seconds, right? They're a nice little hit, right? If you really want that feeling of value in the world to make you feel like you matter, give somebody else the opportunity that they matter. And the easiest way for somebody to feel like they matter is for you to tell them that you need their help and their help will help you.

44:55And not because you want them to do a job, but because you are stuck and you don't know how to do this. I love that so much because I think especially for women, we feel constantly like we have to be there for everyone else. And that reframing to think that actually by being vulnerable, by asking for help, you're giving somebody else the honor of serving their purpose, of being in service. That's true vulnerability. Something else. And I'll give you, and we've distorted it. That's true vulnerability. I see it all the time. Like when I watch social media, I see somebody post a video. The crying video.

45:34The crying video. I just broke up with my boyfriend or girlfriend. I just, I'm struggling. And thank you guys for being there for me. You know, I don't know how many times they shot that, first of all, like what take that was, but we'll put that aside. Let's just - You know it wasn't one. Let's give them the benefit of - Let's say we know it wasn't one. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that - You're far more generous than I am. I'm like, take fucking 15. She got it. She cried appropriately. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt that it was a one and done. And they're pouring their heart out about the pain they're in.

46:06And I just want to share this with you. And this is what I'm struggling with. This is my day. And my question is, call a friend. Better. Sit with a friend. And say every single word you just said on camera. Yes. And by the way, that's way more difficult. It is way more difficult to sit eye to eye with somebody or even on the phone, not a text. Eye to eye with somebody and be like, I just broke up and I don't know what I'm doing and it hurts. It's easier to say when you're sitting by yourself in your room with a camera than it is to say to a friend. And if you want to feel loved and if you want to give someone else the ability to love you and the feeling that they matter and the opportunity to serve, that's vulnerability.

46:55It happens privately. But why has that become so very difficult? Why is it easier to cry alone and share with however many followers you've got than call a mate that really knows you? Because I think there's distortion of the word vulnerable, right? I think there's a difference between broadcasting your emotion. Brene Brown talks about this as well. There's a difference between broadcasting your emotions and being vulnerable. They are not the same thing. vulnerability another word for it like i don't like the word because it's kind of lost its definition because it's so overused a friend of mine doesn't use the word vulnerable what she uses is the word available which i really like i want to be available i want to make my emotions available to my friends to hear them i want to be available to other people's opinions i want to be available to the uncomfortable feeling of being helped i want to be available that someone that I make mistakes and someone knows how to help me.

47:56I like the term available. And I don't think that when we're posting online, we're that available. We're inaccessible. We're over there. Like, on to the next. On to the next. You know? And look, don't get me wrong. When people post these things, it does help people feel seen and heard. I'm not debating. Partially. I mean, I guess there is a... I'm not debating that there isn't value in some of it. but the thing that I'm questioning is, is are we actually, again, is it a short-term thing? Because at the end of the day, we have to do the work ourselves, right? That's why I say start with why. Like I'll give you a great starting point.

48:35I will give you an amazing, I will guide you, I will coach you and I will get you to the starting. But the rest you got to do yourself. You got to run the race yourself. I'll cheer you from the sidelines. I'll hand you a glass of water now and then. Every now and then, if your ankle hurts, I'll give you something that'll help your ankle. but it's your race to run. Like the coach stands on the sideline. The coach doesn't play, you know? So I think we forget that part, which is at some point you got to get in the race. And at some point you're going to get tired. And at some point you're going to get demotivated.

49:08And at some point you want to give up. And at some point you think you're weak. And at some point you trip over. And again, it's unbelievably helpful to having people cheering from the sidelines to know that we're not alone. I ran the New York City marathon many years ago. Friends of mine who had done it told me to do something which was kind of corny, but I did it. I wrote my name on my shirt, just in electrical tape. I love that. I just in electrical tape wrote my name. So we could all cheer for you. But people would cheer my name as I run back and it made a difference. People screamed my name as I ran past and it mattered.

49:39Yeah. Right. It was an amazing thing. I've been on the sidelines and whoever's name you see, you're like, come on, Michael. Like it's an amazing, but I can tell you from the receiving end, it's amazing. Yeah. It's all of a sudden you feel like they're cheering for you. Clearly they're not, but I was, well then, but, but maybe they were, maybe they were, maybe I shouldn't be so cynical. You know, they saw my name and they cheered for me, you know? And so it's only reinforcing the point that we've said, which is, this is a group effort. We need each other, but you have to let people in to help you to make it a group.

50:09Yeah. It's only you. If you're the only, if you're only, if you're always the helper, that's martyrdom. That is not healthy. That's different. That is different. So you say that fulfillment comes from service. Yeah. What does that look like for somebody, you know, someone who's just going through life every day, someone who's not necessarily leading a team or a company, but still really wants to make a difference? Do you have a colleague? Yes. Yeah. You can be the most junior person in the world, right? And the most entry level, you're just graduated school and you got your first job and sitting next to you is the other kid who started yesterday.

50:46Look after them. Take care of them. You good? That's being in service. Of course. Service is uncomfortably simple. It's worrying about the person to the left and the person to the right. It's the basic stuff. It's very simple things. Look after your neighbors. It's very basic stuff. It's the person to the left. It's the person to the right. It's that a friend of mine who's a general in the Marine Corps, he says his test for leadership, and I would argue as a test for service, is that when you ask somebody how they're doing, you actually care about the answer. As opposed to, how are you? Good, good.

51:20Like we ask the question to be polite. But if somebody's like, ah, it's been a rough day. You'd be like, oh, I can't, I can't right now. Then don't ask the question. It's okay not to ask the question. But if you're going to ask, do you actually care about the answer? And that's his test for leader, leadership. And I would argue that somebody who chooses a life of service is what I would call a leader. That's what a leader is. You choose leadership is the acceptance of the awesome responsibility. Awesome by all its definitions. It's amazing, but it's also big, right? It's the acceptance of the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise.

51:59That's what leadership is. It sounds like being a parent. It's true. You've accepted the awesome responsibility to see these little people rise and become the best versions of themselves. Sounds like a good leader at work. Sounds like a good entry-level job. I'm going to make sure that you're good. You're good. We're good. You know, it's a relationship. It's a relationship. You know, and my definition of a friendship, my definition of a successful romantic relationship, my definition of a successful corporate culture, my definition of a community is all the same definition. A relationship is two people who we agree to see each other rise.

52:37A community is a group of people who agree to help each other rise. A successful romantic relationship is two people who agree to help each other rise. What a beautiful definition. Actually, I'd even take it a step further. It's the agreement to see each other grow more than rise. A community is a group of people who agree to grow together. A strong corporate culture is a group of people who agree to grow together. A good romantic relationship is two people who agree to grow together. A successful friendship is two people who agree to grow together. There are different definitions of how you do that, right?

53:11And that's why we need all those relationships. And there are different ways you do that. But you and I both know this, which is the most successful friendships I have, the best corporate cultures I've ever worked for, the best romantic relationships I've ever had, that whether those relationships succeeded or failed, I am a better version of myself because of the relationship, not in spite of it. Yes. No doubt. And? No doubt. And they would say the same. Yeah. That it didn't work for whatever reason, but I am grateful. I am a better version of me. and to build a corporate culture and be a leader where every single one of us shows up to help each other grow and be the best versions of ourselves.

53:49So when you show up in that entry day, like it's so hard because we want to prove we're worthy when we prove that they made the right choice to hire us. We want to prove that we're promotable and prove that we're great. And, and, not or, and, do the exact same thing for the people sitting next to us. I want to help you be the best version of you. I want to help you be the best version of you. And that means I can't do the work for you. I can't swoop in and solve all the problems but I can stand on the sidelines and I can be there to sit in love when you need me to

54:21why does every recipe I try need 18 ingredients including a jar of something paste I'll never use again but will sit in my fridge for nine months I just want dinner in the oven fast that's why I love Blue Apron's new one pan assemble and bake meals they send you fresh ingredients that are already chopped all you do is put it all together and bake That's it. No chopping, no weird leftovers, just delicious, easy-to-make meals. Get 20 % off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com slash terms for more. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard this F-Hulse message.

54:55From now on, enjoy complimentary high-speed Wi-Fi powered by Starlink, available in all our cabins. Stay connected to the people and things that matter most. Your emails, your music, your current favorite series, or even a live sporting event. With Air France high-speed Wi-Fi, bring your world on your journey. Elegance is a journey. Air France. Available on certain flights. Progressive rollout in 2026. Reserved for Flying Blue members. The free loyalty program.

55:27So in your view, and I really want to get into leadership because this is somewhere where I think your view is so fascinating and so required, actually, for where we are right now. What do you think is the most misunderstood aspects of being a leader? What do people get wrong? Oh, simple. Most people think being the leader is being in charge. That's what they think. Incorrect. Being a leader means you take care of those in your charge. Being a leader, as I said, is the acceptance of the awesome responsibility to see those around you rise, whether you have formal rank or not. You and I both know lots of people who are very, very senior.

56:09People do as they say because they have authority, but nobody trusts them. Nobody likes them. Nobody would quit a job for them to follow them. And you and I both know people who may or may not have that much formal authority but people trust them and love them and would follow them anywhere and if they left a group of people would follow and go with them that's leadership leadership is an act of service and when people feel like you have their back and you want to see them succeed they will reward you with love and loyalty that's what happens do you think that great leaders can exist in bad corporate culture?

56:48yeah of course yeah of course and what do you do about that? If you feel like you're a leader that has your team's back, that is there to look after everyone around you and to see people rise around you, but you're in a bit of a shitty culture, what do you do? So, I mean, kind of talking about middle management. I mean, middle management's the most difficult job in a company for so many reasons. One, we don't train people how to lead. We just, you're like, oh, you're good at your job. Now you're a leader. You're a manager. Congratulations, right? Right. And my friend, Bob Chapman, you know, he's right about this, which is we should stop using the term manager.

57:27Nobody wakes up in the morning to be managed. Nobody wants to be managed. We want to be led. Like be my leader, not my manager. Right. You can't lead a company. You can run a company, but you can only lead people. People being a leader is a relationship. So what people get wrong is they think they're a leader when they've been anointed with a title or a rank. All that means is you've achieved some level of accomplishment and somebody has sought fit to bring you up in the ranks. You may or may not be a good leader, but you fit whatever promotion standard the company has set. Leadership is a choice, first and foremost.

58:05Like being a parent, you're technically a parent if you have a child, but you become a parent when you raise a child. Oh, yeah. Right? So yeah, the biggest mistake people make is you're not a leader simply because you have a rank or a title. Leadership is a choice and it's a lot of work. It's the choice to see another person rise and grow and that you're going to be a part of that journey. Do you think that, and have you seen in your past horrible leaders that actually can change their style of leadership and become, because I'm sure that there are so many people here that work for what they would consider, you know, a manager and not a leader.

58:42So what do you do in that position? So again, one of the core principles of being a good leader is empathy. So let us not assume that because somebody is a bad leader, that they're a bad person. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She goes, I need your advice. I said, go ahead. She goes, my boss is a horrible person. She's a horrible person. I said, oh my God, does she, does she abuse her, her dog? She goes, what? I said, does she come home and kick the dog? She goes, no. I'm like, is she, is she a horrible mother? She goes, no. I said, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person.

59:12She might be, but we don't know that. All we know, all we know is she's a horrible leader. She's horrible. Okay. All we know is that she's a horrible leader. That's all we know. Right. and maybe she's a horrible leader because she's had terrible role models but the people who she who got promoted in front of her stabbed people in the back so she followed them and it kept working so maybe she had bad role models maybe she had a bad incentive structure at the company she worked for maybe she's painfully insecure maybe she's responding incredibly badly to the insane amount of pressure that's on her from up above which we have no idea we don't know if somebody's yelling at her because of the stock price we don't know all we know is that she's showing up badly.

59:55So the part of it is like, yeah, we work for some bad leaders, but they're not necessarily bad people. And that's a huge distinction. Because by recognizing someone's a bad leader, I can say, okay, they haven't learned. They're under pressure. They're Peter Principled out. They shouldn't have the job. They're insecure. They're afraid. Okay. I'm going to adjust the way I speak because I know that. I'm going to adjust the way I interact with them because I know that. I'm going to give some grace because I know that. And what you're doing is because becoming the leader you wish you had. That's what's happened.

1:00:26Exactly. What do you say to people in a position of leadership that if you were to give three simple things to become a better leader, what should you do? I'll answer the question. Go on. Why do you laugh? I want to know why you laugh. What are the three simple things that I have to do to be healthy? I wish I could tell you that. I know you need to exercise. I know you need to - Come on, I know him. You've got to go to sleep. You've got to eat well. You've got to exercise. But those are not three simple things. Those are three monumental things. They are monumental. Tell me three monumental things that I have to do to be a better leader.

1:00:58Tell me. Give me the three monumental things that you need to do. Three monumental things you have to do to be a better leader, in no particular order. All of them are about human skills. Okay? Because remember, we've learned hard skills to do our jobs. What we've been neglecting are the human skills. I need to be, and being a leader is a human enterprise. You're responsible for the lives of other human beings, which means you have to be a better listener. And I don't mean hearing words, listening for meaning, listening for feelings, active listening. If you're really good at active listening, at the end of it, you're exhausted because it's really hard to be present and put your own attention aside for a second, your own opinions aside to learn what somebody else is going through.

1:01:41So active listening is a huge one. Another one is you have to be a student of leadership. Every parent reads books about parenting, reads articles about parenting, talks to other friends who are parents and talk to their own parents about how to be a parent. You are a constant student of the thing you're trying to be, right? So you have to elect to be a student of leadership. You have to read the books. You have to read the articles. You have to watch the talks. You have to have conversations about it constantly. I go out with friends who are unbelievable. They've done amazing things. They held amazing positions.

1:02:10You know what we talk about? Leadership. We talk about the struggles we have, the politics and the difficulty in the person. We compare notes. We give each other ideas constantly. Like I write books on leadership and I still consider myself a student of leadership. I'm not an expert. I'm a student, right? So number one - Well, you have to be because the people you're leading are always changing. Everyone's changing. And challenges are different and culture is different and politics are different and generations are different. And generations are different. And generations are different. And if you're leading based on what you learned 20 years ago - You're out.

1:02:43You're out. You're out. Forget about it. It's like you kids and you're rock and roll. It's like you're done. It's over. No, of course. It's nothing like running a company. No, no. All the rules are changing. Now, the basic human principles are the same. People want to know that they matter. People want to know that their work matters. People want to know that they're valued and valuable. People want to feel trusted and trusting. People want to feel seen, heard, and understood. Those things are universal, cross cultures, cross generations. Nothing has changed there. So the things that I'm telling you about listening, I'm talking about being the student because you have to keep up to date on all the things.

1:03:12And then the third one is like pretty much everything else, right? If you can, you heard what I just said, which is like people want to feel like they matter and their work matters. People want to feel like they're trusted and trusting. People want to feel seen, heard, and understood. Do you have the skills to do those things? Listening, empathy, how to resolve conflict, how to have difficult conversations, how to do recognition and reward. It's not simply by just giving people bonuses, right? And so do all those things that make people feel seen, heard, and understood like they matter. You're doing great to being a leader or a friend or a parent.

1:03:49Or just a good person. Or a good person. And the reason these things - I mean, I say simple because again, a lot of those things would come so naturally. Simple, but not easy. To me. Simple, but not easy. You know, it's just, yeah. Simple, but not easy. Do you think that there are born leaders? Like that people are just born that way and they're going to be excellent leaders? No. Why not? No, it goes back to the why. It's how they were raised. Some of them seem to be born leaders because they were lucky enough to have a coach or a parent or an experience when they were young or hardship that they had to learn to cope with.

1:04:20They gave them those skills at a much earlier age than the rest of us. And they show up a little later on. You're like, whoa, born leader, not born leader. Mahatma Gandhi was a failed lawyer in the UK who failed the bar. Okay, he was working to be a lawyer. He was working to be a lawyer. And he moved to South Africa because I think that, I don't remember, it was easier, right? Became a lawyer there, saw the injustices and the racism there. and it changed him. It gave him an opportunity to be the leader he didn't think he was going to be. You go look at early videos of Steve Jobs, this remarkable orator, this remarkable leader.

1:04:58He's bumbling. He's fumbling. He's useless. He's insecure. He's self-doubting. There's some videos on YouTube of him doing early interviews. And they happen to have the camera rolling before the camera. And he literally feels sick. He says, I feel sick. I think I have to go throw up. you know? Oh shit, that's crazy. He learned it. Yeah, he got good. He got the reps. It's like the first day of the gym, you're weak. And it hurts. And you don't want to go back. And you can't walk for two days because you did legs. And you're like, I can't even work out because my muscles don't work. And once the pain goes away, for whatever stupid reason, you go back.

1:05:41You go back. And then you do it again. Yeah. And it hurts. And you're embarrassed because you've got these rinky dink little weights and everybody's looking at you as they're lifting big weights. And so you're humiliated and you go back and you look in the mirror and you don't like what you see and you go back. And all of the empirical evidence is telling you, stop, stop, you're humiliated, you're weak, it hurts and you go back. That's why they're made and not born is they keep going back over and over again, But why would they keep going back? It's because they believe that it's worth it. Yeah.

1:06:20And this is where purpose and cause comes in, which is there's something bigger than me that I think is worth it. It's bigger than me. I think it's worth going back over and over again. The pain has to feel worth it. So what question do you wish business leaders would ask themselves more? What question do I wish business leaders would ask themselves more? But they rarely do. Yeah. What more can I learn? What more can I learn? you know, I'm very cynical of the business leaders to say, I think I know what I'm doing. And I'm like, okay, not going to work out. No, I feel like in general, in every part of our lives, you have to constantly be in learning mode.

1:06:57Like you're never done. And here's the problem with what more can I learn, right? Here's the problem with the question. It's a loaded question, right? Which is, I don't know. Which means I have to be curious. which means I have to get 360 reviews for somebody to show me my blind spots because I don't know what I don't know. You still seek those out even now? Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. And I have recurring ones which are the really frustrating ones. I'm like, I knew it and I did it again. You know, for sure. Because even you, you're never done learning about this. Well, even you that's written like three best-selling books about this and speak so beautifully and articulately about it and somebody that we all sit here and tune in to listen to, like even you doesn't have it totally down.

1:07:46100 % correct. All I'm doing is running my race and instead of having the pain and frustration and lessons and realizations in my mind, I'm broadcasting them. Okay, this hurts right now at this point of the smile. I learned, here's a technique that helps you get through the pain at mile 12. That's all I'm doing. If you said it like that, we'd all know. It's just because you're saying it. I'm just, I'm simply writing books. With such authority. I mean. We were all like, okay, write it down. I mean, you know, it works. Simon said. You know, strong opinions loosely held. But I mean, I'm in the race too.

1:08:22I'm not on the sidelines. I don't have it all figured out. That is part of your allure, that we are very, very clear that we're learning with you, that you are talking to us in a way where you're not the know-it-all. It's like you're coming to us with the problems and with the scenarios and the situations. And I think that people do want to unlearn, you know, bad habits, toxic behaviors. People do sit in their organizations and say, okay, I'm here, what do I do next? And that's why I've loved following you for so long. Do you think that you can undo a toxic culture? If somebody is, if a leader has a team in a toxic culture, what do they start to do?

1:09:05They start to ask themselves questions. Should I be in this company? Should I just quit? Can I undo it? Is it worth my time? What do you say to people? Make the implicit explicit. Take the thing that everybody knows to be true and put it on the table. And I've done it in my organization as the leader, but you can do it at any level, right? Which is, hey folks, this is not a fun place to work. I'm not enjoying it. And I can't believe I'm the only one. I know that we are gossipy. That's not good. I know that we don't trust each other. That's not good. I know some things that we could probably do to make it better.

1:09:45I don't know where to start. But I do know that it's not good for us and nobody wants to work in a place like this. So we have a couple choices. We can ignore it and just chip away at it and be passive aggressive. Or we can raise our hands and say, you know what? I got to work here. might as well try and make it a bit better. That's it. I'm not asking anything. I'm not telling anything. I'm just making the implicit exit. I'm just saying how I feel. What happens when you do that, Simon? So there's a few things that happen. Don't expect immediate results, number one, right? What it does is it makes, weirdly, people feel seen and heard, right?

1:10:26Because people will say, you're right. I feel that about this place too. Okay, now you have a partner and camaraderie and a potential supporter, right? Not everybody's going to want to help because some of them benefit from that culture. They know how to work those politics. So they're going to be resistant. That's going to happen too. They might even be, they might double down on difficult, right? That'll happen too. But if you get a critical mass of people like, let's do it for each other. Yeah, because there's always people that say, that doesn't exist here. You silence the bullies. But making the implicit explicit is a very difficult and very powerful tool.

1:11:00Difficult because it's, nobody wants to say it. No leader wants to admit that their culture is crap in front of everybody. No, because that's you putting your hands up saying, I've fucked up here. I've done something wrong to get us into this situation. And that's the other part. And I need you lot. But that's the other part, which is accountability. You make this culture awful. No, no, no, no. I recognize I'm a part of the problem here. I'm a part of it. And I recognize I've made many mistakes and I'm on my own journey. But it's like a personal relationship, right? Which is when you're, you know, you know this from, if you have a successful romantic relationship or even a successful friendship, you know, when you have a fight, it can't be me versus you.

1:11:38Never. It has to be you and me versus the problem. And it takes the leader and it can be either one at any time to sometimes have the self-awareness in the moment of anger and heat to interrupt what's happening. Yeah. And I remember I was fighting with my girlfriend. This is how the fight went. Here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong. And her response was, here's what I did right and here's what you did wrong. Now that can go on for a while. And this is going on for a while. And I realized this was going nowhere and I realized we were trying to be right and make the other person wrong.

1:12:11Fortunately, in that moment, I had the wherewithal to interrupt and say, this is not going to work. I need to change the rules of this fight. Yeah. And I said, here are the new rules of the fight. I'm going to tell you what I did wrong and I'm going to tell you what you did right. I'll go first. And I said, here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right. And she goes, yeah, well, here's what I got wrong and here's what you got right. And in 30 seconds, we realized we're both trying. And it was us versus the problem. But the leader is the, we call you leader not because you're at the top.

1:12:36We call you leader because you went first. First towards the unknown and first towards the danger. The first person to say, this is, not this place sucks to work. No, no, no, no. This place can be a better place to work. A million percent. So you have to be the first to rise up, right? The first one that comes up above the fray and says, here's what I'm seeing. Are you feeling it too? And here's how I feel. And here's how, are you feeling what I'm feeling right now? And can we all get on? And I'm not making anybody wrong. I'm not making anybody wrong. Just is what it is. Right? It is what it is.

1:13:08I'm going to tell you how I feel because my feelings are always valid. You can disagree with me if I make conclusions. And so the leader isn't the person who's in charge. The leader is the person with the courage to go first into the unknown, into the danger, the first to put their neck out to protect everybody else. We call you leader because you went first. Because you went first. You lead.

1:13:34A year from today, what would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had more time for yourself? Alma empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all-in-one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation, and day-to-day practice operations. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Learn more about Alma at helloalma.com slash get started. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue.

1:14:13And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.

1:14:41Having worked with so many leaders over the years, what do you see as the most common traits in the great, the most inspiring leaders you've been able to work with? easy, easy, easy, easy. It's courage. And I think you can't have courage without integrity. I think those two are inextricably linked. I think courage and integrity, the courage to speak truth to power, the courage to be honest about my own failings, the courage to make the implicit explicit, the courage to change the rules of the argument so that it's you and me versus the problem, not me versus you, the courage to change the narrative when we label a colleague lazy, stupid, arrogant, and say, well, maybe they're just insecure, or maybe they're struggling, or maybe we put them in the wrong job, or maybe they don't know the rules.

1:15:20Like they could be stupid, lazy, or arrogant, but there could be other things too. The courage to do all those things and the integrity, courage takes integrity and integrity takes courage. You can't separate the two. I don't think you can have one without the other. I don't know which one comes first, but I know that when you practice one, you get the other. When you practice courage, you get integrity. When you get integrity, you get courage. So you just got to practice and you get. Yeah. And courage without integrity is bluster, foolhardy, pigheaded. It can be mistaken for courage because real courage, real courage, like I said, to me, real courage is the willingness to run towards danger to protect others.

1:16:06Yeah. Well, and also there is that piece, just going back to what you said about vulnerability, right? Because you have to be vulnerable and be willing to see, or be willing for other people to see your vulnerability, to be truly courageous. It's also to be believed. If you present yourself as perfect all the time and having all the answers, it backfires. One, nobody believes you because nobody has all the answers and knows everything. That's number one. Number two, you make other people feel insecure because they don't have all the answers and they don't have any, and they have doubts. So they see you always confident and always with the answer.

1:16:46So, oh my God, it must be me. So the ones with a lot of self-confidence will not believe you. And the ones that have any cracks in their self-confidence, their insecurities will exaggerate. And so if you pretend to know all the answers, it may be the single biggest mistake that leaders make, which is I have to know all the answers and I have to present confidence at every moment. That's how I have my credibility. That's the single biggest mistake. I think so. The opposite is true. You get more credibility. You'd be like, look, here's a huge freaking problem and I have no clue where to start. And I think people mistake being vulnerable with not having confidence because vulnerable sounds weak.

1:17:27That's why I like the term available. It doesn't sound weak, right? Yeah, I guess in a corporate culture, you'd much rather use. Available. Well, this is something I'm fascinated about by you because you've orientated your life around this idea of optimism now, right? Like you have the podcast, you have your company. Like what does that actually mean? The backpack, the coffee. You've got all the... I have the press. I have a publishing house. You have your own imprint. I have an imprint. Which is incredible. Yeah, Optimism Press. Thank you, Optimism Press, which is in partnership with Penguin Random House.

1:17:58Well, you talk to me a little bit about that. Like why optimism right now? Oh, really? Yeah, no, because listen, I can sit here and, you know, make up my own reasons. I want to hear it from you. I love it when people say to me, Simon, in these times, you know, optimism. Like, yes. Do you want me to have optimism when everybody's feeling great? I mean, like, what? No, optimism is important all the time. And I think you're right. You started this podcast by saying we are living in a period right now where there is a distinct lack of optimism. I think that's 100 % true. Okay, why is there a distinct lack of optimism?

1:18:29We talk about the rising epidemic of insecurity and loneliness and anxiety and depression and in the worst case, suicide. Those are all lack of optimism too. I would argue that the reason we're suffering a lack of optimism is because we have no sense of belonging. And you can see people desperately looking for something. You know, you see it in the politics. You know, on the left, it might be sort of Palestine or anti-Israel. On the right, it might be anti-vax or anti-mask or whatever the thing is. And they're grasping me onto anything that gives them a sense of cause or belonging. And it has all the trappings of it.

1:19:05It feels like it. You have community camaraderie. You're around people. they're all rah-rah, we all have each other's backs. We're together. We're together. But for the fact that we don't know where you're going. We don't know what you stand for. I know what you stand against. Definitely know that. But I don't know what you stand for. And if you get your way, then what? If you get your way, where are you going? What's the vision? Like, what's the world you're trying to build? Right? And so I have no problem with articulating something that's standing in the way of my vision. But when you have some, when you label an enemy or an anti with no sense of vision, it has the feelings of belonging, but it's not belonging because it'll go away.

1:19:52And then you'll have to grasp onto something else and the next thing and the next thing. And we're seeing it happen. We're seeing it happen on the left. We're seeing it happen on the right. You know, we've changed what the cancel culture looks like. And then we're all in on that until we're all in on the next thing. Because if you truly have purpose and cause, it's your whole life for that one thing that you believe in. And it's not the thing you're against. It's the thing you're for. It's the, I imagine a world. I have a dream. I believe. What do you believe? I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.

1:20:26That is the world that I imagine. There are many things standing in the way, existing business practices, old fashioned leadership styles, the way that we run our companies, shareholder supremacy, short-termism. These things are standing in the way of the vision that I have, which is why I've committed myself to one of the things we have to overcome, which is the leadership challenge and the way we build corporate culture. I want people to feel happy at work. It's a Trojan horse, right? The reason I picked work is because that's where all the people are. During the Great Depression, there was 25 % unemployment.

1:20:54What I hear is 75 % still have a job. If you want to get people, get them at work. So if I can teach people the human skills of listening and empathy and how to resolve conflict and how to have difficult conversations and how to see each other as human and how to change narratives, and I can teach all that at work. Why? Because it makes work better and it makes corporate culture better and it makes all those things better and you make more money, blah, blah, blah. Great. And then you go home and you know how to talk to your kids better. You know how to listen to your spouse better. You know how to deal with stress better.

1:21:23You know how to talk to your neighbors. You know how to have difficult conversations at the Thanksgiving table with your crazy uncle who you disagree with, but it doesn't trigger anybody. And you know how to keep peace and you know how to make people feel seen and heard and understood. And the world gets better. It is a Trojan horse. All of my books, I'm a philosopher. I write philosophy books cleverly disguised as business books. But at the end of the day, what I care most about is the human relationship. And so why optimism? It's the core of a successful human relationship. The reason I work hard in this, I talk to my favorite couples, like the romantic couples that I see who I like envy.

1:22:02I want a relationship like theirs. And I have a small list. I know who they are. I ask them, what's your secret? They all say the same thing. It's hard work when we do the work. Why is that the recipe for successful relationship? Because human relationships are hard. And, you know, Cats are naturally good at being cats. They don't have to study. Unfortunately, being human, we're not naturally good at it. We're actually naturally pretty crappy at it. We need to work at it. Right? Like being a good human and being a good partner and being a good colleague and being a good leader and being a good follower, it all takes work.

1:22:35And the question is, are you willing to do the work? The only reason you're willing to do the work is because it's worth it. It has to feel worth it. And so when you're in a romantic relationship with a person you love and who loves you, why is it worth doing the work? because this person matters to me, I matter to this person. This person makes me feel seen and heard. I get the honor of making, helping them feel seen and heard. I feel like I matter. I get the honor of making, helping them feel like they matter. I'm growing as a person. I get the honor of helping them grow. I'm going to keep doing it.

1:23:07And the minute you say it's not worth it anymore, then have that conversation. Question the relationship. Question the job. Question the collegial relationship. Question the friendship. Absolutely. Have those conversations. Have that feedback session. We have feedback sessions at work. Why don't we have feedback sessions with our friends? When our marriages are in trouble, when our romantic relationship is in trouble, we get couples therapy. How come we don't get friends therapy? Like how come we're not working hard to make our relationships work? This is your new pursuit around friendship. Yeah.

1:23:38Much needed. But it all comes down to human relationship. I have a clear vision of where I want to go. I can see the things standing in the way. and I'm in pursuit of something noble and good for all people. Not for some people, but for all people. Whereas many people who's wanted it. That's why I said vast majority. I'm not so foolhardy that I can think I can help everyone. Right? Thank you, Simon. I've loved speaking to you and you ended just on the perfect note. Okay, so a couple of rapid fire questions for you, Simon. An easy one. What's the first thing you do when you wake up? I do the crossword puzzle.

1:24:13It's so old school and lovely. in a newspaper or on an iPad? On my phone. On your phone? Mm-hmm. Okay. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed at night? The crossword puzzle. Really? If it's a Friday, yeah. If it's a Monday, I'm done in 10 minutes on a, you know, I'm done in 10 minutes in the morning. But I, my, my, it's, I don't really meditate in the traditional way, but I like making my brain think a little bit at the beginning and the end of the day. A little puzzling. And I'm not on text and I don't care what, what's happening in the world. It's just a way for me to just disconnect and focus.

1:24:47And it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a source of meditation almost every day. You find it hard to meditate? No, I like meditation. You like meditation. Okay. Just checking. What's a book that changed your life? Start with why? I mean, I mean. That was a pretty good one for you. I mean, yeah. I haven't read a full book that changed my life, but there are pieces of books that have changed my life. Man's Search for Meaning, obviously, and a finite and infinite games by Jim Kars who put me on the path to write my book, The Infinite Game. I was so inspired by his truth that I wanted to build on it. It's a funny question.

1:25:21Like what book changed my life? Yeah, the writing of Start With Why definitely changed my life. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's a perfectly good answer. Yeah, it's funny. What are you currently aspiring to in your life? Professionally, I want to really, there's multiple things. You know, I'm looking for all the ways to bring the vision to life in new ways. And the businesses that I'm building are my way of asking for help, right? So I'm building this training company called Y School, where we're teaching personal coaches, executive coaches, learning and development people and companies to help individuals find their why.

1:25:56I'm asking for help to get as many people to help learn their why as possible because I can't do it alone. So if I build a company that gives that exact way I do it to other people, holy cow, right? The app that we're building right now is my way of saying, I have this vision of the world as it could be, but I can't do the work. I need you to be the leaders in the companies. I need you guys to help me. I need to build an army. I'll teach you some skills. I'll give you some guidance. And so our whole learning platform on our website is designed to give people those human skills so that they can join me to change the world into one that could be.

1:26:35I need more. I need people to go change their companies. I can't do it for them. I need people in the race with me, right? So I'm trying to train people to practice running and get in the race with me, right? So that's happening. The friendship book that I'm writing is because we underestimate the importance of friends in our lives. And if you want to have a successful romantic relationship and you want to have a successful career, you better have some good friends who love you and care about you. And the thing is, there's so much written about leadership. There's an entire industry about leadership.

1:27:03there's an entire industry about romance and finding partners and yet there is so little about how to be a friend and so I'm trying to start that industry I want lots of books about friendship I want lots of apps and lots of companies about friendship you are so right how have I never read a book about friends because there's there's barely anything on the topic and if you ask people are you a good friend most people say yes and if you peel the onion just one layer most of us are pretty shitty friends where most of us like like would you cancel on a friend for a meeting or would you cancel on a meeting for a friend Oh, but my friend won't understand.

1:27:35Okay. So do you get a divorce after one bad fight with your spouse? No, of course not. You work through it. Would you end a friendship after one bad fight? I've done that. Whoops. You know? And for some reason, we have a lower standard for our friends. And yet, if you want to have a successful career and you want to have a successful romantic relationship, those things come and go. Your friends are the only stable thing through all of it. You better look after your friends and learn how to be a good friend and learn how to serve your friends by giving them the honor to serve you. I'll be waiting for this next book.

1:28:06So all of my work, our company, our training program, all of it, all of it is me asking people, inviting people to join me in common cause as we learn to build this world that feels inspired, safe and fulfilled. It's amazing. All right, I have one last question for you. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you no longer value? I don't need to be right anymore. I don't need to be the one who is right. I'm okay if somebody else's is right and they have a better solution, better answer. I'll do what they said. I don't need to be a hero. I don't need to be right. I don't need to be in charge.

1:28:53I don't need any of those things. As long as we have momentum and the work's getting done, I'll lead, I'll follow. I don't care. I'll follow your idea follow my idea I don't care as long as it moves us in the common direction I'm in fantastic thank you so much Simon thanks for having me what a pleasure

1:29:16if you're loving this podcast be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform while you're there give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend we'd be so grateful Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reece-Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren LaGrosso, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker.

1:29:51Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schaaf, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

1:30:35Thought Sweetgreen was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do Sweetgreen. Wrapped and ready. These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40 plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying, and built for life on the go. From craveable sauces to satisfying textures. They're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only.