Why Execution Matters More Than The Right Idea with Issa Rae

18:14Emma Grede:Otherwise nothing works. And that's also something that I'm realizing, I've been realizing over the last year, where as much as I want to be like behind the scenes, And I also have to be visible for these businesses to work, which is... Damn right. You're like, yeah, girl. I'm like, yeah, get out there. And that is, that's something I'm navigating because sometimes I just, I don't want to be. Like right now, I've been off social media since the first and it's a dream. You have? I love taking breaks. I don't, I don't want to, but you have to. My most feared phrase about myself is, Issa just be doing anything.

18:50Emma Grede:like that would be like oh no is that what you think and I don't want to feel that way about myself like it doesn't make sense like or I I did it for the check you know like that I say no a lot you ever do it for the check no and my manager can tell you that he's like come on it's a lot it's a lot you sure and I'm like no I would rather not no cause I wouldn't again I would show up dreading it and I don't like the feeling of like this doesn't feel right. I'm impulsive. That I feel like is my best and worst quality. It's my worst quality because I don't ask enough questions sometimes going into something, but it's my best quality because I don't overthink and I'm optimistic in that everything will work out.

19:36Issa Rae:And fearless, it feels like there's a certain part of you that is not scared about what options that you have. You're just going to go.

19:44Emma Grede:Thank you.

19:45Issa Rae:I don't know. That's like when I look at all the things that you do, I mean, I'm interested to understand like what lessons you're learning as you kind of like are juggling all of these businesses.

19:54Emma Grede:A lot of lessons. More recently, just I like being nimble more than having like I really, really like being hands on and it gives me anxiety the more I have to delegate. I find that I like to get my hands dirty. Like I just re-edited something myself a couple of weeks ago because I was like, I want to show how it should look. And I feel like it'll take me more time to explain it and I can see how it is in my head. And you can do that. You can edit black footage. Sure. Yes, I can. That's where I came from. I had to do it for Awkward Black Girl. But yeah, this was like basic, but this was just to get the message across.

20:30Emma Grede:And I'm like, I miss doing that. I miss showing. And it pisses me off that things cost money, extra money when I know I can do it myself and I know I can do it well and it takes extra time. And I'm just like, I don't ever want to forget where I came from, where I was like, I want to make something so I can make it. I can just do it. That is a huge thing that I'm learning this year is like more people doesn't mean it gets done faster. It means it's just more people.

20:55Issa Rae:Yeah. It's just more people. When I feel like there's such a big difference between like visibility and power. When for you, did you kind of realize they weren't the same thing?

21:07Emma Grede:There's something about this era. But I was just saying this, like, because we're in this era of social media, you feel like because you have eyes on you, you should. Like, I found myself, I want to talk about this thing or show what I'm doing. And I'm like, why? Who cares? Why does anybody need to know this? Why does anybody need this? What is this doing for me? Where I find like there's just so much power in just quietly doing. And when things are ready, like I just, I love popping out with something finished that I want people to see as opposed to having these moments of constant accessibility that kind of mean nothing and aren't special.

21:52Emma Grede:Like I think for me, what I've, the conclusion that I've come to over the last couple of years is I want to do stuff that feels special. Where's that come from? from having so much thrown at it. Like, everyone talks about the attention economy and just the barrage of content. And now, like, what slop is going to be? Like, I think people are going to crave. And I know that I myself crave things that feel like they are special and that they're fleeting or that they are conversation starters and that they make me feel a certain way. Like, I'm drawn to things now that just, like, I can't shake. Like, whereas if you asked me the last video I watched, I can't remember, but I can remember like, yeah, I was happy in the moment, but it's not staying with me.

22:38Emma Grede:I crave things that like stay with me because I remember how those things made me feel growing up. They made me want to be an artist. They made me want to create things that made other people feel the same way.

22:49Issa Rae:Yeah. And so is that like a barometer for you when you're choosing your projects or you're choosing what businesses to go into? you're really looking for something that has like saying power something that is going to be like memorable and thoughtful and

23:03Emma Grede:move you I said I want to make people's favourite shit like and that means that can be a range of things you need a t-shirt and that has to go on a wall somewhere I just want to make your favourite shit and that can be anything that could be like high art, it could be you know slapstick humor, but like there's some, I have just like, I have a range of things that make me so happy and I have defined who I am because they just, there was some intention and there was something that resonated with me at the time and that, that the period that I was in, or it means a lot to me and my friends because it's inside jokes.

23:46Emma Grede:And so, yeah, I look for things that make me either laugh really, really hard because they're funny or stupid or things that just make me feel emotionally seen. And that's kind of my guiding, my guiding light.

24:05Issa Rae:I've always believed that hosting is about more than just having people over. It's about creating space, space for connection and conversation and for people to feel welcome, whether that's friends, family, or collaborators. I love bringing people together in ways that feel thoughtful and personal. And that's something I really appreciate about Airbnb. When you book a stay, you're not just choosing a place to sleep. You're choosing a home that reflects a neighborhood, a rhythm, and a way of thinking. It's what makes the experience feel so personal. And for people who travel often, there's also an opportunity there.

24:37Issa Rae:While you're away, your home doesn't just have to sit empty. You could host your home on Airbnb, giving someone else that same sense of comfort and connection, while also earning a little extra income that could go towards future travel or a home project you've been thinking about. Hosting doesn't have to be complicated. It's simply about sharing space in a thoughtful way and letting your home work a little bit harder for you when you're not there. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. The Start With Yourself tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City.

25:11Issa Rae:Tickets are on sale now at emagree.com.

25:19Issa Rae:I wonder what surprised you most about where like the decision making sits because you strike me as somebody that is very clear about your intentions. You have a North Star. You want to make people's favorite shit. In the entertainment business, like sometimes it's like not always like your decision. I just wonder what surprises you now about where the decision-making power actually sits. What surprises me? Yeah, or even like, it's not even what just surprises you. It's like, I guess you're someone who's kind of taken that somewhat into your own hands. Was that always part of the plan?

25:58Emma Grede:Ideally, yeah, that was part of the ideal plan. But to your question, something did surprise me where it resonated with me last year where I was like, oh, and I have so much respect for like executives and people who give notes, but it dawned on me that like what I wanted to make was in the hands of one person. Like, you know, the decision making was in the hands of one person's taste. And I was like, oh, okay. And they might be really honest about that taste. Like, oh, this genre thing might not be for me, but that also means it doesn't get made because it's not for them. And so that was like eye opening for me in a way where it was like, oh yeah, I'm beholden to a singular person's taste.

26:39Emma Grede:And while their taste might be broad and I respect their taste, everything's not going to be for them, which means like I'm, the things that I really want, really want to make on a large scale, I can't make because of that. Yeah. And so that took me a long realization. It took me a long time to realize. And, and so that also made me double down in, in another area where I'm like, oh, I want to be able to make things independently and to have a breeding ground for experimenting. And I'm excited to do that more this year.

27:10Issa Rae:Do you think there've been moments or rather have there been moments when there's been an expectation that you would be grateful for access when you're actually the one bringing real value?

27:19Emma Grede:Yeah, that's... How did you respond? Not well, honestly. I've heard that said a couple of times and like there was an incident that happened where those words were kind of used. And I was like, oh, that's all right. All right. This is a business at the end of the day. And we're not friends here. And I can realize, I'm happy to realize that. And it kind of made me disconnect. And also in a hardened way, like look at myself as a product. I think that that is taking feelings out of it where you're like, okay, I am creating a product. I need a buyer. And if they're looking at me that way, then there's a way where I need to balance like, and this actually happened also on the movie side, like working with studios and, you know, making things that a studio will be willing to buy.

28:18Emma Grede:That has changed so much. Totally. like trying to figure out what what is theatrical and molding to kind of their standards. It can be sometimes like soul crushing or you're just like, oh, damn, this is this is it. But you guys know what you're talking about. You know what you're talking about. Like there is a when we produced one of them days movie that I'm super proud of that was like so much fun to make. Like I'd never done, I'd never tested a movie before that was like my own, you know? So we would test the movie in front of - What does that even consist of? Like showing it to them? Showing, showing like people that come to a movie theater.

28:59Emma Grede:They will show up, we'll sample, like have a sample audience. They don't know what they're going to come to see until they show up. They watch the whole movie. They watch the whole movie and we watch them watch it. And we watch when they laugh. We watch when they don't. We watch what they respond to. And then you kind of adjust the edit from there. And so the first time you're showing it, we know that there's flaws in the movie, but we want to test it for the audience to just see where we are. And after that first screening, the executives were like, or no, the person who does the survey was like, you need something in the first 12 minutes of the movie that's going to make the audience laugh.

29:32Emma Grede:Otherwise, they don't know it's a comedy. And I'm like, that's so like, that's so reductive of an audience. Like they're not smart. That's I don't know. But OK, let's figure it out. We had to figure out and conjure this moment that was broad for audiences to realize, like, this is a comedy. And we worked together to find that and finding the balance of, like, please, God, like, can we make it this? Can we make it this? Can we make this? And then we settled on a moment. And it literally works. Was it the right decision? It was the right decision. And I'm like, that's when they know what they're talking about.

30:03Emma Grede:And I've learned so much during this process. And that's when I'm like, oh, this is a product that has been tested, that has been sampled. and my creative instincts aren't always going to be right. No matter how passionately I feel about them, there are formulas that work and that audiences swear by. If I want to make stuff that isn't that, then that's my own creative risk. Then I'm not making a studio movie. And like, I'm taking that risk on.

30:29Issa Rae:But that's like, you know, a culmination of, I guess, you know, experience and somewhat of like, you being like having a maturity level to be able to like take that information. I wonder, like, you know, because I feel like as women, we're so often encouraged to be collaborative and agreeable. And I wonder if you've ever felt the tension of having to be respected and having to be liked in your business.

30:56Emma Grede:Yeah, absolutely. How do you navigate that? Well, generally, I still approach things because I've seen the other way. I've seen people just throw their weight around and do all that. And I don't like that. I don't like witnessing it. I've seen people I respect and talent I respect, like talking to people any kind of way. And they maintain that that is how you get things done. That's the worst. But it is the worst. And I feel like what I've done is taken a step back and realized like everybody who's a part of something for the most part wants it to be good and wants to do a good job. And so talking to people like they don't want that is like everybody loses.

31:33Emma Grede:And so I try to find, I try to keep that in the back of my mind. like you wanted this to be good. You want to help this. So like, how can we work together to make that happen? Unless someone is outwardly disrespectful to me, then I won't return that energy. But make no mistake, if you are disrespectful to me, I will come at you really hard. But yeah, generally, no, I try to operate with kindness and with the intention to move forward and make something good. What kind of leader do you think you are? That, I feel like I'm one that listens. I'm one that I like to fix things. I hate things. The biggest challenge I've had is when people come to me with problems that are more to vent.

32:23Emma Grede:And I'm like, I can't do anything. So I can't do anything about this? You're just telling me this and I have to carry this now? And like, what can I do about this to fix this? And yeah, I think for me, if it's not a fixable thing, don't tell me.

32:37Issa Rae:I mean, I'm not, I have a low tolerance for people coming to me and this is a solution. Yes, and help me find a solution. I will whine and moan with the best of them. I need you to start with a solution and then we can bitch them up and down. Give me the soul.

32:54Emma Grede:Don't waste my time. I completely agree. And, you know, I have been like, please, if you're going to bring me something like bring me two things you want me to you've been thinking about for a solution, because I have to fix a whole bunch of different things in the day. And you just got this part.

33:10Issa Rae:How comfortable are you using your power? I'm like, please, just rein it in. How comfortable are you using the power that you've earned compared to earlier in your career?

33:26Emma Grede:I think way more comfortable now. Before, I used to tiptoe a lot and do the, to your point, like, I just want, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I want, I just got here. I want people to like me. Now that I'm, like, a business, I'm just like, yo, business got to get done. I don't, I don't care. And then, honestly, this period is pissing me off a lot because to watch people, because it is like watching people comfortably be like, we don't want to make black shit. and or something is too black or like we don't want to we're stepping away from these things and sitting in that and feeling power power and like oh we don't have to hire we don't have to do diversity hires because that's what I always thought it was the entire time like not having that same mission and being able to just go back to the status quo like that doesn't it just doesn't sit well with me like what what is where where's the intention like where's the acknowledgement.

34:24Emma Grede:And I'm not saying that like the way that things were was great at all by any means. I feel like there was, there was still a lot of, I don't know, there was, there was, there were, there were some entitlement or things like that. But I just feel like not acknowledging that we have a broken system is so stupid.

34:42Issa Rae:So stupid. I want you to say a little bit more about that because I do feel like, you know, there was this moment and this time and this energy where corporations, it was like a wake up call. And I think being, you know, not from America and being right in the thick of that and being surrounded by what felt like this like amazing moment where people that had just not thought about this stuff in the longest time were suddenly being forced to, and they were being suddenly forced to mandate it and measure it and be intentional. And then the mass exodus. What are you actually doing in your own business that's contrary to that?

35:24Emma Grede:Maintaining it, you know, like we really haven't switched up and yeah, the intention is still there. Like we still have that same passion for the fervor to break people into the industry to, to again, it comes down to telling these stories, telling our stories and the commitment is just even more there. And when I watched Sinners, like I was so excited. Same. We were all so excited. I mean, you know, like it just felt like something so welcome during a time where we were so starving and thirsty and it was clearly someone's personal art that just you could feel watching. Talk about something that stayed with you.

36:08Emma Grede:Yeah, stay with me. I feel like I've never seen anything like this before in my life. Yeah. And I was grateful to have witnessed that and to share in that. And so that was a product of right after, you know, that was right after. I'd imagine even the way that he was able to negotiate his deal that happened in the 2020s, like 2021 maybe. And in that process. And so like, that's what we get out of something like that. That's the that's the permission we're granted to make something like that. And that excites me. Excellent shit. My favorite shit. Honestly, deeply. And so, yeah, I'm like, we want to be able to create those things at our company, whether it comes from us or not.

36:48Issa Rae:Issa, if there's one thing that you could say to your industry about the rollback of DE &I, what would that be?

36:54Emma Grede:I guess just be considerate. Like, just look at, like, literally, so many sets that I've walked on have literally just been like, it's all white dudes. Like, did y 'all even, are y 'all looking at this? Like, come on. just be my like interview everybody at the very least and that's the challenge just look around and and think about if it if it if it replicates what you see in the real world honestly

37:24Issa Rae:which feels so simple but but can I just say in the simplicity that's the solve because I think what people don't want is they don't want things that are cumbersome they don't want solutions that take longer. But when you talk, and when I talk about this, like it doesn't take many people in a room to be considerate. It just takes that one person to go, can I just check everyone here? Is everyone, and usually when one person speaks up, the rest of the room goes, oh yeah, shit, maybe we need to rethink this, right? So I actually think that like our own personal responsibility here is that be that person, be that one person that fucking says something, because often it doesn't take much more than that.

38:06Issa Rae:Now, listen, we know there are spaces and places where one person doing something is not going to mean anything, but in a myriad of ways, sometimes that's all that's needed. And so I like to encourage people everywhere in every company, it doesn't matter what you do, like be the person who stands up and says, should we just check ourselves right now?

38:25Emma Grede:Yeah, I wholly receive that and agree. Let's go. All right, Isa, my favorite part. Ooh, ooh, the legs switched up.

38:35Issa Rae:What am I in for? I want to talk about money. Oh yeah, let's go. Let's go. I don't know why nobody wants to talk to me about money. And I was so happy because at the start of this interview, you said to me in the green room, you're like, I'm here. And nothing makes me more happy than when someone just comes to play. Someone comes to have a conversation and just like get it out. I want to start because you are a creative person. First of all, how important is money to you at this stage of your career?

39:05Emma Grede:At this stage, it is important to own. You have to have money like you just you do. You have to be able to to be able to self-finance, to be able to take risks like that is that's a huge part of like what my what my North Star is. And so if I don't have the means to pay people to get things done, then I will suffocate. And then I'm at the whims of the mercy of other executive studios. Money matters. And I have put, even talked to my business manager this year, like, and thinking about setting the goals that I wanted to set for this year and beyond. He was candid. He was like, everything that you're making now is for other people.

39:51Emma Grede:Like you're fine, but this is everything that you're making from this point is for you to invest in other people, for you to invest in projects. Like you could be fine right now. You could retire. You could be done. So think about that and how you're how you're using your money. And I was like, oh, that kind of put a battery in my back where I was like, oh, I'm cool. Because I have been used to just like watching myself and making sure that I'm financially stable and feeling like, again, these things will go away. and to be able to hear like, no, you're good. Also was like, oh, well, shit, I can do more.

40:26Issa Rae:How did that make you feel? There's nothing about you that was like, oh, good, I'm going to like go get a house in the countryside and chill.

40:33Emma Grede:No, but I was like, oh, that's in my future. Cool, great. And it's, again, so dumb that maybe I didn't think that, but I'm so used to like hustling and grinding that it was, yeah, it was a wake up call that there's nothing stopping me beyond wanting to have a successful business and businesses. Like I don't want to be reckless at all.

40:55Issa Rae:Have you had times in your career where you've been reckless? Because obviously you have invested in yourself. Have there been moments where you've taken risks and perhaps you didn't understand like, or fully understand the costs or what might have happened?

41:09Emma Grede:Yeah. Ironically, when I didn't have money, like I was taking all these risks and going, you know, heavily into debt. Like I felt so crippled and crushed by the money that I owed, you know, and that sucked. But I was like, there's no other way that I'm going to get this done. And I guess I, I, the impulsiveness, I didn't plan this out. I didn't know how to budget. I didn't know what things cost. For me, it was like a necessity to make things. And, you know, ultimately they paid off. And then that came with the optimism, like, okay, if I spend this now, I know I'll figure out a way to get back.

41:44Emma Grede:I'm working three, four jobs now in different night shifts. And like, I will figure this out, but I need to do this at this time. How's your relationship with money changed over the years? It's changed a lot in that like now I feel, like I said, comfortable. I don't think about it as much in my like personal daily life. I think I only think about it when it comes to investing and advancing my businesses and what's possible. But I honestly, I still am approaching things with the like, we can get it done for this. Like we don't need to spend that much money. You're frugal. I am so frugal. I am so frugal.

42:26Emma Grede:I don't have all the streaming services because I'm like, why am I paying for stuff if I'm not watching this thing? I don't. People make fun of me for that. But I'm like, just because I have it doesn't mean I need to spend it. And if it doesn't make sense. So what I will say is like, you asked me my reckless things. I was just talking about this last night. I want to know your reckless things. I want to know like the last fund purchase. No, it's all, it's literally food and travel. That is it. I will pay so much for a restaurant experience, for a Michelin or whatever, for someone that's up and coming.

42:56Emma Grede:That's what you love. That's a treat to you, like Michelin star deliciousness. I love wine parings. I love alcohol. I love all the samples. And I love going places that like being able to point on a map and being like, I'm going to go there and I want to stay in the best resort or the hotel or wherever it is. Like that, that is my experiences. That's your indulgence. Yeah. But which, which are things that I can keep, but they stay here. Like I don't really buy things, unfortunately, that are like I can point to and be like, oh, I have that. That's what I spent money on.

43:27Issa Rae:No, you're like, I went to Japan and I had these insane experiences and that meant something to me.

43:32Emma Grede:Yes. Yeah, true.

43:33Issa Rae:I mean, that's a great way to spend your money. I mean, for women that are listening to this and they're always told to, you know, like invest in themselves. What do you think about that conversation that deserves a little bit more honesty, given your experience?

43:49Emma Grede:I guess, yeah, sometimes there's a reticence to take care of themselves, like especially if they have families. Like they're like, I have to I have to make sure everybody else is good, which I respect. But nobody will be good if you're not good, you know. And I think if anything, that's the message. but I've been, I think I'm working on being a little less selfish this year. Anything, I have been selfish and I've acknowledged that. Like I'm like, oh wow, the older I get,

44:15Issa Rae:I could tip the scale the other way.

44:18Emma Grede:I could, I could, I could definitely do that.

44:20Issa Rae:Tell me about that. Cause that, that to me is so interesting. You know, I've just written a book, it comes out in April. It's called Start With Yourself. And I am big on selfishness.

44:30Emma Grede:but I feel like you can afford to be like, come on. But I guess, you know, this industry will have you feeling like, and you asked me if I feel like a star. No, but I've definitely been catered to, and this industry will make you feel like you're important and that's not real, you know? And, and so in that way, like I've had to shake, like, yeah, this is not about me. There are other people that make this work. Like you should be thinking about other people a lot more throughout this process and making sure that they're good. And I do to an extent, but I could do more, you know, and not even to an extent.

45:10I do think about other people, but yeah, there's just more that I could

45:13Emma Grede:do to de-center myself. So what is the season of less selfishness for Issa even look like? It is like being more intentional about like, these were also my resolutions, but... Please give them to us. Like more family time, being there for friends. Like so many of my friends have been there and family members have been there for my events. And, you know, I want to make sure that I'm there for the things that matter to them and carving that time out. And yeah, just being more generous with my time for the people that I care about.

45:52Issa Rae:Is some of this stuff like just age and wisdom or is this coming with a certain thing that's happened?

45:58Emma Grede:It's probably going back to what I feel like is missing, you know, like the personal side and investing in the personal side and making sure that that balance is there. So yeah, it's coming with age, but it's also coming with like the awareness of what else fulfills me.

46:14Issa Rae:Yeah. I wonder, I want to go back to all these businesses that you're building and I wonder how you protect like your creative flow and your creating energy when you're doing so many different things in different lanes?

46:30Emma Grede:I trust the people that I work with and that I collaborate with. I make myself available when I'm needed. But if people have a... And then, you know, I'm there for like the critiques and trying to improve things. But I, for this year, I have such a target and have such specific goals about what we need as a company, what I need as a creative that I've been really focused on that. Because like I said earlier, if I don't have the things that I'm creating, also if I'm not visible to a certain extent, then nothing else really works or matters in the same way. Like in a rising tide lifts all boats kind of way.

47:10Emma Grede:So I really have to make sure that like why, like the core of why I got into this industry is functioning and functioning well.

47:22Issa Rae:And is that how you do it? Like you set goals for yourself and the company.

47:26Emma Grede:Yes. But also the best thing that I ever did was hiring a COO. I really wanted that a long time ago. And a lot of my day... Was that a goal? It was. It's been a goal for a long time. I've been looking for a long time. And because I find that, you know, a lot of my day was wrapped in meetings and managing the company. And that meant that I didn't have time to create. And you're talking about your production company specifically. Yes. like the company hooray at large. And so to be able to have someone who is actively strategizing and actively keeping us on target and actively holding people accountable in a way that I almost felt embarrassed to, only because like, I can't hold you accountable if I'm not holding myself accountable to this deadline and blah, blah.

48:10Emma Grede:And I have, my attention is split so many ways. So to be able to find that right person to do that has been a huge weight off of my shoulders. I'm still deeply involved in these targets. And like I said, I'm super hands-on, but yeah, I needed focus and I needed, I needed that.

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51:21Issa Rae:What are your goals?

51:23Emma Grede:What are you ambitious for now? I want to be more prolific, you know, even in the things that I make. I do. That's a good one. I do. I want to be more prolific. Yeah. Like there's so much that I want to make. I want to make so many. I want to make more movies. I want to make more TV shows. I want to expand my digital footprint now that I can. Like there's just, and that's not just me. That's working with collaborators that I've always wanted to work with. And now that I can be, I can be available to do that. Another resolution, it was to be less accessible, you know? And that like accessible in the sense that, yeah, I would take these meetings.

52:01Emma Grede:I would meet you for lunch. I would go to dinner. And then that would be more time sucks for me. And like more time that I'm not doing what I feel like I'm supposed to do. So I have been humbly staying inside.

52:15Issa Rae:How did you learn that discernment? Because I'm sure after Insecure, right, the floodgates opened. Everybody wants to work with you. What's the conversation that goes on in your head that decides whether you should be involved in something or not? Or take an offer or not? Oh man.

52:31Emma Grede:What's the conversation?

52:32Issa Rae:Yeah.

52:33Emma Grede:Just because I just imagine you like in a mirror having a conversation.

52:36Issa Rae:Do you know why?

52:38Emma Grede:I write it down actually. And I will, I will weigh the, what is it? The opportunity cost. That's like the one thing I learned in economics.

52:49Issa Rae:Is that. That's a big one to learn. It really is. Especially for someone like you, because, you know, for you to be visible in some, your time is finite. There's only so many hours in a day and days in a year.

53:00Emma Grede:Yeah, but some people do it really, really well. And there are some people who genuinely enjoy it. And I don't. I have to recognize that. Like, are you going to like, are you going to like shilling yourself out for this? So it really has to matter. Like when I love something, I will whore myself out for all day, like in all aspects. But if I'm like only lukewarm, then it does feel embarrassing to me to show up and be like, hey, I'm promoting this, you know. And so I think about that often. Like, how are you going to feel when it's out? Yeah. Or when it's, yeah, when it is, like, you have to post it on your social media.

53:37Emma Grede:You have to do that collab post. You have to do whatever it is. Like, are you going to feel good about it? Are you going to feel like, ugh? And, but post insecure was different. I didn't have the experience. For me, it was just like, my eyes are open. What?

53:49Issa Rae:Yeah.

53:49Emma Grede:Like, this is a possibility. I can work with this person, even though I may not be mentally ready yet. Like, I, yeah, I'm going to go for it. Okay, I fucked it up. Damn. Like, a lot of that happened.

54:02Issa Rae:Yeah. Like, absolutely no doubt that happened. What are you most excited about now?

54:09Emma Grede:I'm just proud of the stuff that I'm making and the collaborators that I have. I'm, this, I keep saying that this year is, it does feel like, I've been saying like, it's been feeling like 2016 before everybody else has been saying it.

54:23Issa Rae:Oh, were you an early adopter of that? I was. I wrote it last year. I was like, oh. My husband says that. I'm like, shut up. He said that too? Yeah. What's his sign? He's a Pisces. Oh, he's a Pisces. He's a Pisces, yeah.

54:34Emma Grede:So he knew. He had the feeling that this year.

54:38Issa Rae:And he's usually good at like catching a vibe. He's like, Emma, you know, this is what everyone's going to be talking about saying. And I'm like, no, no. I need to know. I don't want that 2016 around me.

54:48Emma Grede:It's real. It felt similar in that like that year for me, I was like on the cusp of creating. And felt like I knew that I was making something that I really desperately wanted to be making that I was super excited about. And I have the same energy this year around multiple things where I'm like, oh, this feels like the build it year. And then it feels like the reaping year. And then the sewing year is next year. Oh, it's like a two year is a combo.

55:20Issa Rae:No, no.

55:21Emma Grede:This I understand.

55:22Issa Rae:I'm into the one, two punch. I like to brand my years. and I always have like an idea for like, like this is this year and then this year leads to this next thing. The one, two totally works for me.

55:34Emma Grede:What's your brand for this year?

55:35Issa Rae:Oh, like this is the breakout year. Oh, okay. Yeah. What was last year? I don't know. I've been sitting behind a desk for the last 10 years. I can't tell you. They're the typing years. Oh my God.

55:47Emma Grede:Okay. So that was the cluster. It was the chunk. The cluster of years that she's been like, you know,

55:52Issa Rae:mint sewing. I don't know the breakout year it's gone it's gone in such a flash that you know sometimes like you can lose years that's what kids will do for you between the kids and the companies I'm like I need to break out and I don't mean it in that sense of like you know a star breaking out I mean like breaking out of these things that have sucked and taken every bit of time and energy that I've had I need to like feel that 100 % it's like are you grown up now feed yourself and that company works Okay. Bye-bye.

56:24Emma Grede:Yeah, I feel it. You're pouring into me. Is this also what the book is about? Kind of.

56:29Issa Rae:I mean, the book is really one of these things that I was desperate to say because I just feel like we're in such an interesting time in the culture and the way people work. And so, you know, I'm like, in the same way that you said, you don't want to hear people just come to you with like noise. I don't want to hear that from a whole section of society. So I just tell them what I think. Like, whoo.

56:52Emma Grede:Yeah, I'm going to pick that up because, yeah, I need to hear all that. But the breakout year, I fully feel it.

56:59Issa Rae:We try, but I love the one-two punch. I love this idea that you're like sowing the seeds and then you're going to reap the rewards. I mean, this is, it's pretty incredible stuff though. Like it feels like you're in a lane and you're doing the, you know, great stuff and great work. can you look like a person who is somehow kind of quietly confident about what they're doing?

57:22Emma Grede:Yeah, I would say that. I am quietly confident. Yeah. Cause I just don't want to be seen being confident. You know, it's just, I would rather again, be behind the scenes and just working and then emerge like, yeah, the cocoon thing where I'm like, I feel like I'm very much in this cocoon in like this self-made cocoon, just like becoming what I want to be, like becoming this. To your point about the type and cluster years, I feel like the last couple of years, I've been a moth. And now I'm like, oh, I'm about to come out a butterfly. You got to see.

57:55Issa Rae:I mean, I love that. I'm thinking about this idea about, you know, like productivity and pressure. Like at what point does all of this productivity that you've got in your life become pressure to you? Is there any sense of that?

58:08Emma Grede:I think when it comes to, I put a lot of pressure on myself for sure. But then, yeah, when I think about the other people who are depending on me, and that could be people at the company, that could be, it could be familial. Yeah, I just. Oh, you have that too? Yeah. Yes, I do. To the less extent than you, for sure. For sure. I'm going to say that, probably. I'm a poor girl. I don't have four kids. But yeah, like I think about, it is mostly on myself because I envision in my head where I want to be. And I'm so impatient, you know, like it really, it really bothers me when things don't happen on my time.

58:54Emma Grede:And like, I always learn on the other side, like, oh, the timing was just right. That's, but it's a lesson I have to learn literally every single time.

59:03Issa Rae:Really? Because it just doesn't, it's just not dropping in for whatever reason.

59:07Emma Grede:Yeah, I get frustrated when I can't do things the way I want to do them now when things aren't on my time. Like, I think, I guess, I guess it goes back to being bossy, it goes to being ambitious, it goes to this overwhelming feeling that I'm running out of time, like all these things. You feel that? You feel like you're running out of time? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:25Issa Rae:What is it about the 40s that does that to you?

59:27Emma Grede:Shit is fucked right now. Yeah, that would love it forever. and crap. Shit is so fun. But yeah, like, you know, I think also in a good way where it's just you only have this life if you don't believe in reincarnation, which I would like to believe in. Heaven's, never mind, I'm not going to get into that.

59:44Issa Rae:Don't go on, go on, but I love that. What are you thinking?

59:46Emma Grede:Well, just heaven sounds so scary. Hell sounds scary, but like living in a place, I'm getting too much. But yes, I want to. I was so into it.

59:55Issa Rae:I was like, we're going to be scared of heaven. There's something. Well, you're going to be bored?

59:59Emma Grede:you're going to be bored in heaven. I hope not. It's not enough happening with you. You know what it is? It's infinity. It's like the infinite. Yeah, yeah. Like when I think about things going on forever, whenever I think about like time goes on forever, I would rather be doing different versions of that time as something else as opposed to whatever this is.

1:00:22Issa Rae:Well, you're like a person who's like craving the transition, like craving like the what's next, like something's great. and you're like not resting on your laurels, you're already moving on. Like you're trying to cook the next thing.

1:00:33Emma Grede:Yeah, kind of. Yeah, no, yes, that. But like where life is concerned, I absolutely have to make the most of it right now.

1:00:41Issa Rae:Yeah. And also I feel like there's a certain amount of privilege in this situation that you've created for yourself that you're like, why wouldn't you make the most of it?

1:00:49Emma Grede:Yeah, if I can, there is so much. Like anytime I'm, by no means I feel restless right now I feel weird and I've been expressing that, but I am beyond happy. Like I feel happy that I've been able to build a life that I want, you know, there's, and my happiness does come from like, yeah, creating things, whether that is creating the life that I want, whether that's creating your favorite shit, whether that's maybe creating family, maybe that's whatever. Like I feel fulfilled when I'm productive and doing things and those things fulfill me and waking up every morning and feeling like I have a go at it and a go at something new really, really excites me.

1:01:33Issa Rae:I love that. How do you think about legacy? Do you think about legacy? Yes.

1:01:42Emma Grede:Yes, because I think about death all the time. Clearly. Do you? Yeah. Because it's in our own.

1:01:49Issa Rae:I thought the heaven thing was just the question I asked you. No, girl, I think about it all the time.

1:01:53Emma Grede:You do. That's like when you love your life, you're going to think about death, you know? And what is next? And so I think, yeah, I know that part of the running out of time thing for sure is like wrapped up in mortality for, you know, but it's also thinking about windows and the like. So yeah, I think about...

1:02:15Issa Rae:It's amazing to me that you say you think about death. Like one of my, I'm going to totally mess the quote up, but you know that Steve Jobs quote, I think it was like a Stanford commencement speech where he says, the single best invention of life is death.

1:02:28Emma Grede:Oh, man.

1:02:29Issa Rae:And it just is like, you know, the knowing, waking up every day and knowing that your time is finite and one day you'll be gone. Yeah. It's the best thing that could ever happen to you. It's a great motivator.

1:02:39Emma Grede:It honestly is. And it's so funny. I think about his last words a lot. Like when he was dying of cancer in the hospital bed, he like lost consciousness for a bit. And as he was dying, he said, oh, wow. And I think about that. I was like, what did he see? What did he see? And then he just, you know, he left.

1:02:59Issa Rae:Oh, wow.

1:03:01Emma Grede:Yeah, that's what he said.

1:03:07Issa Rae:That's just crazy. What did he see? Now I want to know. What did he see? What did he see?

1:03:11Emma Grede:We won't know until we know. What a life. Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. Look at that shit that I did. Yeah, he could have been flashing back to what he did or he could have just seen what's next. Yeah, he was like doing an Easter.

1:03:25Issa Rae:He's like, I made your favorite shit. Oh, wow. This is it.

1:03:30Emma Grede:Unbelievable. I like to think that.

1:03:32Issa Rae:Unbelievable. So your legacy will look like what? If you can fast forward and look back and say something about your career, what would it be? I don't get to dictate that, but if I could, I like what you said about being fearless.

1:03:50Emma Grede:Like, but when I compare myself to people who are actually fearless in the face of danger, it doesn't add up. So I take that back. I take it back. I understand that.

1:04:02Issa Rae:I mean, in your industry and what you're doing, because Isa, there's a part of you that's like, as I was doing my research, I was like, she's a one of one. There's not 10 Isas. like you're very very formative in forging a path and doing things in a way that isn't easily uh replicated or seen and so I do think that there is a part of you where that fearlessness like has to be like it has to be there like as I was going through I was like wow she's not scared of anything she's just going so interesting isn't it interesting what other people think about you

1:04:37Emma Grede:Yeah, it is. And I really, really try not to think about it. But I thank you for that. No, I want to be remembered more as a person than for my work. You know, I want my work to be, to stand on its own. But like the good things that people say about you are like the interactions. Like that still matters to me too. Like I want to feel like, and that is part of my personal work. Like I want to be more considerate. I want to be less selfish. I want those things. And I do feel like there's a chapter of my life that I'm going to enter outside of this that feels more purposeful in a different way. Once I figure out what's missing.

1:05:21There's nothing worse than like loving something, loving a work and then kind of hating the person behind it or not appreciating the person's behind it.

1:05:30Emma Grede:Like I hate hearing that some of my faves are monsters, you know? It's the worst. it's nothing worse than meeting your heroes and being disappointed by it yeah i tried not to meet them yeah just don't meet them that's what i learned just don't meet them just keep it in

1:05:44Issa Rae:your imagination yeah everyone's great in my imagination absolutely right

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1:08:27Issa Rae:Where do you think your biggest challenges are going to come from?

1:08:31Emma Grede:Hmm. Besides, like, myself? Oh, it's you. It's all you. I'm always going to be the problem. Like, I will own that. I am the problem. I think also my biggest challenges are not knowing. I was just talking about this. Like letting things, giving people multiple chances. And not. You're not good at that? I am giving, I'm too good at giving people multiple chances. Oh, you're too good at giving. Like I will see the best in people. And I've had to learn. Oh, you're a lovely girl. I'm stupid. Like in that way, for sure. And I've had to be like, no girl, nipping in the bed. It's not working. Yeah. Got it all.

1:09:10Emma Grede:Doesn't make sense. I'm great with that in my personal life. Easy. But in business, not so much. But in business, yeah, because I'm like, I see the potential.

1:09:17Issa Rae:Oh, so most women I meet are almost like the other way around. Like, oh. So it's the business where you're giving people maybe too much leeway. Especially when they have passion. I'm just like, oh, okay. I guess there's a creative component. For sure. Of that. Yeah. I'll fire an annoying creative much slower than I will like a really annoying person who worked in corporate in my office interesting because there's a value to the creativity that I think is somehow harder to replace yeah for sure yeah I completely agree with that give me an example like when has there been a time when you've just like not you know just haven't cut it off quickly enough

1:10:04Emma Grede:without being the person and seeing this and being like, that's me.

1:10:13Emma Grede:There have been...

1:10:15Issa Rae:What color hair did she have?

1:10:16Emma Grede:Exactly. There's been, and this applies to a few people, where, like, you try to craft a role for them because they are so talented, but that can be expensive or, you know, they may not show up in the way that you need them to. where deadlines are concerned. I need go-getters. And when I'm like, one of the things that I've also learned within the business is that we have a lot of, in my company, we have people who come up with brilliant ideas who are the smartest, but I need executors. If you're not, I don't give a fuck about your idea if you're not the person to get it done. Yeah, facts. Like we can talk about how great this idea is all day, but I need executors.

1:10:59Emma Grede:I'm an executor, but I can only execute so much. So I need you to be the ideator and the executor along with me and do it well. And so that is a thing. And that's like my biggest pet peeve is someone coming at me with the, we should be doing this. We should do this, do this. And I'm like, oh, that's great. Do you mean I should be doing that thing? Because how are we going to get it done?

1:11:22Issa Rae:Because I'm already doing this, this, and this. So like, help me. I feel like that's a great lesson though for any business owner, founder, because I call it having an enterprise mentality. Because to me, you have to put the business first. in the times when I have taken a person that I have a certain affinity for and tried to mold something for them, it's never worked out for the company. And so to me, having an enterprise mentality means you might be amazing, but what I need for this company right now is something else. So you got to go and take your amazing somewhere else. And that will be better for you too.

1:11:55Issa Rae:Eventually, even though you don't know now, and I might be the first person to tell you, but that doesn't matter. And so I think learning to have an enterprise mentality, what is best for the business is the decision that you have to make as the owner of the business. And then everything else has to figure it.

1:12:09Emma Grede:I needed to hear that. I needed to hear that. And there's also like, I'm a loyal person too. And also trying to separate loyalty from the enterprise mentality. Because it's just like, just because someone has been with you for a long time, doesn't mean they need to come with you for every chapter. Maybe they've served their purpose. Yes. that sometimes doesn't feel right to me, but I have to, like business is business and I have to have a business mindset.

1:12:38Issa Rae:Yeah, it's very, very, very difficult. And I feel like as somebody that's grown companies, you know, I always talk about the people that you started with and all the ways the ones that take you to where you necessarily want to go. The framework that always really helped me is that I always think when somebody's sitting in a seat that perhaps they shouldn't be. I don't think about that person. I think about the person that should be in the seat. who you're actually stopping. I'm like, get out of the seat. No, but you know what I mean? It's like you're actually stopping the person that needs that role from having that role.

1:13:11Issa Rae:You see how I do this? I love it. You're just burning a hole in the chair. Yeah, literally with my eyes and every part of me. No, but I think that it's a really. It's so true though. Listen, it's like, because you need other things. And usually my experience is it actually benefits that person as well because people know when their time is up. They know when they've come to the end of the road. It's so hard for them to say. It's so hard for you to say. But you check in with that person six months later, they're like, oh my God, I'm killing it over here. Because now I'm valued and now I'm in and now I'm like wanted.

1:13:44Issa Rae:And like everyone was feeling it.

1:13:46Emma Grede:That was me as an employee, I gotta say. I've discovered, I realized that a few years ago, I was like, I was such a bad employee because I wasn't in the right place. Yes. I needed to be somewhere else and I needed that, that like, I need, I've never been fired. I've never been fired. I've never been fired. But I should have been. I should have been. You should have been. I should have been. There were a few jobs where I clearly, one job I tried to like come in and give it my all and as soon as they shut down my ideas, I was like, y 'all don't deserve me and I did the quiet quitting thing and did the bare minimum.

1:14:21Emma Grede:I should have been fired. Yeah. But like, I needed to be out of certain jobs to, to, be who I am and where I am today.

1:14:32Issa Rae:Fair. What do you hope that other women that are forging a path in your, in your image or, you know, are trying to have the type of career that you've had, what do you hope they will learn from your journey? I mean, I, I trust myself a lot.

1:14:52Emma Grede:and now I didn't enough early on like those those times when I forgot why I was here why I was in the room when I second-guessed it I wasted a lot of time and yeah I had to go through those things to to ultimately gain the confidence to to feel like I belonged in these rooms. But like I spent so much time second guessing that, that like I would encourage other women to just always remember, like always remember why you belong in certain spaces, what your strengths are. So in the same way that Larry told me like, protect what this story is. Protect this. Like always remember like, I am fucking good at this.

1:15:46Emma Grede:No one can ever take this away from me. These are my strong suits. I always have this. And no matter what, like I can rest confidently knowing like I am good at this core thing, these core things. And then I'll be okay. Then I can, then I'm like, all the other things will bounce off of me. Like all the other doubts that people, I may feel people have about me don't matter because I know this deep within myself that this is what I'm great at. And I feel like I have that where I'm like, I know what I'm really, really good at. And I think my strengths are also recognizing what I'm not good at and asking for help.

1:16:24Emma Grede:So I guess, yeah, for women, knowing what you're good at. And also don't be afraid to like ask about what you don't know. What do you still aspire to do or become? I always say better. And I don't know what that means in the moment, but I can look like at this year and be like, I'm better than I was last year. I know that. I've never regressed. She doesn't go backwards. No. Aspire to become the second phase of my life. I'm still figuring out. I aspire to figure that out. That's pretty amazing. I love it. I love it.

1:17:01Issa Rae:You're honest. I am. You really are. So before we wrap, a quick reminder that Start With Yourself is available for pre-order and tickets for the live shows are available now. Starting April 15th, we're coming to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, DC, Boston, Atlanta, and London. Visit emagreed.com for tickets and full tour details. I cannot wait. Babe, I only have some rapid fire questions for you and I'm going to get you out right on time. All right, first rapid fire, which is impossible for me because I'm so long-winded. Okay, what is your comfort classic TV show? show? Can I just,

1:17:42Emma Grede:it's a cluster, it's any dating reality show. Like, I will watch, I stopped loving. Dating reality? Love Island? I loved Love Island. The English one or the American one? Which one? I actually started with the American one. Oh, you did? Yeah. I've never seen the English one. Oh, I think that's the best one. I only see one. I know, I've heard, but I didn't have, because I don't have all the streaming services, I didn't have it.

1:18:00Issa Rae:Because you got off all your apps because you're so cheap. But now that I got them,

1:18:04Emma Grede:I got gifted, so I'm going to watch UK. I mean, I've never seen it. I can't watch it. You've never actually seen it over here? No, I've never seen it. How do you say I think that's the best one? Well, that's what I heard, okay? So that, I used to watch Love Is Mine. I love The Ultimatum. I can't wait for it to come back. There's a... You like trash. I love trash. But it has to be, I like watching people be attracted to each other.

1:18:28Issa Rae:Oh.

1:18:29Emma Grede:And like falling in love. And so like those shows give me that.

1:18:34Issa Rae:Alright, what song best captures this chapter of your life?

1:18:38Emma Grede:this is going to piss me off because I have one and there's too many. I guess I'll say Elmin has a song called Reclusive and he's my favorite. And it's, that's how I feel right now. I feel like I'm in a kind of reclusive state so that I can do what I need to do.

1:18:55Issa Rae:What are you still learning to say no to?

1:18:57Emma Grede:I'm still, despite trying to be less accessible, still learning to say no to that classic, hey, can we meet up for coffee or can I pick your brain? I'm getting better, but I'm going to say no. So if you ask me and I don't respond, that's why I don't want to do it. I can't.

1:19:16Issa Rae:What is a genre you're curious about exploring that people might feel surprised by?

1:19:21Emma Grede:I like literal genre sci-fi. I like it a lot. I like grounded sci-fi. What's grounded sci-fi? I'm not doing like aliens and I don't like fantasy. Okay. But I like dystopian. And I like dystopian dramas and dramedies.

1:19:42Issa Rae:Okay, we're ready for that, I feel. What's a book that changed your life?

1:19:47Emma Grede:The Courage to be Disliked.

1:19:49Issa Rae:It's a great one. Okay, final, final question. What is something that you aspired for or to when you were starting out that you no longer aspire to?

1:20:01Emma Grede:Going to industry parties? I don't need to be there. She's not going. I'm not going. Also, you know what? In my reclusive state, I'm not watching as many things you see. I just told you what I watched. I watched a lot of trash TV with the occasional show that everybody's talking about that I'm excited about. But when I go to these events and I don't know people, I feel so embarrassed. I feel deeply embarrassed that I do not recognize you from your show or movie because I'm not up on it. So I would rather stay at home. even though everyone knows who you are. I don't want that. That's worse. If someone knows you and is like also complimenting you and you can't give it back.

1:20:43Emma Grede:Oh, you can't compliment that? That is very interesting. It happened to me, actually just recently, I was doing a music video for an artist that I'm a fan of and I hadn't seen this show that everybody was working because I just, I was working and I hadn't gotten to it yet. And I met a girl and I was like, oh, are you in the band? And she was like, oh yeah, kind of. And then I walked out and my hair and makeup was like, you know who that was, right? And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. So that would be my everyday occurrence. You said what? I said, stay home. You stay home. I will stay home. Thank you.

1:21:20Emma Grede:You've given me the permission. I will remain at home.

1:21:22Issa Rae:Thank you. You're just wonderful. Thank you. You are the least disappointing person that I really wanted to meet.

1:21:34Emma Grede:Thank you. I received that I am honored thank you but thank you for the amazing questions thank you for being wonderful you made me really think and that it hurts a little but thank you I'm happy to hurt you you're still a one of one in my mind thank you

1:21:53Issa Rae:if you're loving this podcast be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform while you're there give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend we'll be so grateful A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren LaGrasso, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black.

1:22:29Issa Rae:Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. that's Aspire A-S-P-I-R-E with EmmaGreed or you can submit a question to me on my website emmagreed.me

1:23:12Emma Grede:Rinse knows that greatness takes time but so does laundry so Rinse will take your laundry and hand deliver it to your door expertly cleaned and you can take the time pursuing your passions time once spent sorting and waiting folding and queuing now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great.