AAH #811 - Is Real Automotive Journalism Dead?

0:00Auto Line After Hours is brought to you by Alex Partners. For more than 40 years, we have helped companies and their stakeholders around the world harness opportunity, overcome challenges, and achieve outsized outcomes. Alex Partners, when it really matters. And by Bridgestone Tires, solutions for your journey. Hey everyone, thanks for joining us this afternoon. We're going to do something a little bit different for the first half of the show, and so I'll do a little bit of setup. For those of you who saw the show last week, we had David Coletti, who's the president of Consumer and OE Tires at Bridgestone Americas.

0:41Now, so here's a guy who is an executive in the auto industry, and he's also a racer. He's an automotive enthusiast. So before the show, we were all sitting around talking, and we started talking about consuming media in terms of, you know, like, what does he do in terms of getting information? And like many of you, many of us, you know, he grew up reading the car magazines, and, you know, he, you know, ran through the car and driver, road and track, motor trend, automobile, and so on. And then, of course, as an executive, he mentioned that, you know, at one point in his career, I mean, currently, he had a stack of automotive news on his desk.

1:29And he made the point that he doesn't read magazines anymore. He doesn't have the stack of automotive news on his desk and that the media that he consumes is all digital media. And so, you know, whether it's seeing one of these publications online or watching YouTube and getting information that way. Some of you are watching YouTube right now to see this, which is a good thing and makes us very happy. So given all of that, I thought, okay, how has media changed within the last 20-some years, let's say, okay? So we've got a couple of guys here who are going to help explain this. We've got Greg Migliore and Peter DiLorenzo.

2:16Now, many of you know Peter. Peter, the auto extremist who started his site 27 years ago. Okay, so here's a guy who had a career in advertising, switched over. it's been online for 27 years writing about the auto industry now greg he you know started out as a reporter got it after got out of school then he went to work for auto week then he went to work for automobile magazine he was a longtime editor at auto blog he then went to vertical scope and now greg is a freelancer okay and so so you know i want to get a sense of of you know how these guys see things changing over the years. Okay. So, so Greg, let me start with you.

3:06I mean, so, you know, you worked for some legendary print publications and then you went to auto blog online. Um, you know, so talk to me about how you see the print space then and now in the digital space then and now. Well, I think, um, I think it's interesting because I feel like starting out, I was like on the very, like the edge of right when people were still doing print was really the most important thing. Like in auto week, we still had proofs. Even in college, we still had like paste up things where if you had to make a change on an article, you busted out the razor blade, sliced out that paragraph and away you went.

3:48So I kind of saw that like at the very end of when print was king. and, you know, moving into like sort of the digital age, you know, it evolved, you know, right now I think brand recognition is way more important. Building a loyal, repeatable audience, I think is the most important thing. Whereas for a while, like when I transitioned from auto week to auto blog with automobile in between it, traffic was the king, you know, And that's where you really, like, at Autoblog, you were trying to get more and more traffic. And I think that's what websites did for a while, is just the pure audience is what mattered.

4:28And now I think we've kind of maybe pivoted back a little bit from that. You're trying to find the right audience. And that's where you find things like podcasts, like YouTube, newsletters, to build that sort of engagement and keep your clientele coming back and back. Whereas I think at the start of it, it really was just, like, very top-down. Like, here's our magazine. We're telling you what to think. And that's how it was with all publications, frankly. So, so, okay. But do you see a change in the reporting? Do you see a change in the writing? Do you see a change in the coverage? I mean, do you, I mean, how has this changed?

5:06Yeah, I think, well, good writing, I think is still good writing. And I think a lot of like, from my standpoint, a lot of like the reporting and the interviewing, those tactics don't change. and I think the publications that are still doing well and they prize that type of reporting and that type of journalism, they can still monetize it to a certain extent. They can still make it something that is of value to you and you're willing to pay for. So I do think like good reporting still matters and I think it still is, I mean, really the core of what we do. I mean, I do believe in journalism, if you will, very deeply but it has changed a little bit.

5:46Like I think probably in the late 2000s, early 2010s, that's where you did see more of like mainstream aggregation is I think one area. That's where you did see like the blogs and like some of the other sites like that didn't do as much original reporting, especially in our space and the automotive space. And then that went hard for a good decade or so with people kind of just cannibalizing each other, their own reporting. And now I think for sites that really want to survive, especially in this age of AI, that's where I think you do have to have a real soul, an identity. So I do think there's still good reporting jobs, still good reporters out there.

6:31I don't think you see as big a newsrooms before. I don't think people are emphasizing that with magazines with 30 people on staff as much. You know, it's it's definitely kind of drunk. But I think I think it's still important, like the the actual tactics of journalism. So, Peter, OK. You you made like a big bet on going online when that wasn't the thing. I mean, by by any stretch of the imagination. So, OK, how did you make that decision? and do you think, knowing what you know now, are you glad you made that decision when you made that decision? Well, originally, Auto Extremis was going to be a car magazine.

7:21So this is 1997? When I first started thinking about it, it was 1996. And I thought, you know, I want a car magazine that isn't influenced by ads or anything. That's just the raw commentary, reporting, just something that I wasn't seeing out there. And, you know, I've had overtures made to me by various magazines over the years. But when it came time to do it, the thought of getting the money together to do a magazine was just like it seemed daunting and silly. And the Internet was right there. So I just decided that I would launch on the Internet and go for it. And knowing what I know now, I would have still done the exact same thing.

8:18It was the right time for me. It was a march to a different Trummer publication. It still is. Because of the arena that I chose, I was able to say stuff. that the others wouldn't necessarily be able to say. I didn't worry about having access to executives because that's how the PR people hold journalists to the fire. They say, well, if you want access, you're going to have to, you know, not redo a story, but they'll give you a real bad time to your editor, and then the editor come down on the writer and say, well, you know, we need to do this, this, and this. And I just bypassed all of that. I didn't want anything to do with that.

9:09So, um, well, you know, you said an interesting thing. You said the internet was right there. Okay. The internet was right there, except for the fact that there weren't a hell of a lot of people who were there with the internet. Yeah, it was, uh, uh, you know, my long, long time partner Janice said, well, you know, you don't need to do all that money raising. We can just do it on the Internet. And I just took a blank piece of paper and drew out what I thought it should look like. And we went from there and we were up and running on June 1, 1999. And week after week after week after week, many many weeks you you've you've still been doing this yeah i'm still bringing it i'm i'm proud of that it's uh difficult um i don't think my writing has aged by any means and i still get new uh readers and um i still get the same comments i um that you were writing stuff that you just can't find anywhere else, which is kind of fine.

10:29And true. I mean, not, not stroking you because you're here, but I mean, it's, it's, it's absolutely true. I mean, I remember when a guy who was working for me at the time came into my office and said, you got to read this. I mean, literally. And, and I still remember that. And you know, so that's how I became introduced to what you're, what you are doing, what you were doing when nobody else is doing it. Greg, so I spent 35 years in automotive trade journalism, so covering design, covering engineering, covering manufacturing, all the things that nobody really likes to cover. Maybe the design part, but the engineering part and the manufacturing part.

11:12It's like, oh, to hell with that. Um, and so, you know, so over the years, I, you know, my, my competitors were things like Ward's auto world and automotive engineering, um, to a little bit automotive news. And, you know, as, as through those years, it's, it struck me that there was a certain vibrancy among all of those publications. And so we'll, we'll put automotive news to the side because they're, they're still doing it. But, you know, it's just like there seemed to be a decreased amount of resources that we all had because we were dependent upon the suppliers for advertising. I mean, that's, you know, the big automotive suppliers, the ones who would provide the money.

11:58And so budgets would be cut. Folios would be cut. Even frequency of publication would be cut. And, you know, I see that happening with the classic buff books, the ones that, you know, you're familiar with.

12:18And I saw in my world a change to the tenor of coverage because there just weren't as many people to do the work. And I just wonder for those who, you know, do depend on, you know, finding out about what's new, getting assessments. I mean, do you think that's what it was five years ago? Five years ago, maybe, but I think like 10 years ago, probably not. I think, you know, you can kind of just even reading the different magazines, the ones like the ones I used to work for, you would see like automakers were in a lot of buff books, a lot of different car publications, trade publications. Then they started to kind of go their own way.

13:02you started to see more suppliers would get in there and they would fill the ad pages or the you know the banner ads on the website and then you fewer suppliers um not on your show but you see fewer suppliers um doing that and now it's like you kind of look at the the client base the advertising base it does seem you know much diminished not because there's anything that i think the outlets are doing wrong or anything like that, it's that the marketing strategy has just changed completely. And I think a lot of the original sort of core advertisers have decided that there's, they think there's better ways to reach their consumers.

13:42They'd rather do like, you know, DTC right to the consumer, whether that's through influencers, through independent journalists, through activations, events, or I think a lot of automakers, I mean, specifically in our field, but you see this in other areas like Hollywood, watches, all sorts of things. It seems like they almost want to be their own brand. Like if you look at Ford and Chevy, for example, their press sites are magazines, basically. So I think there's definitely been, you know, a decrease in traditional advertising because the companies, they want to do it themselves. I think some of it maybe stems from, hey, they want to control their own message.

14:26but I think it's gotten to the point where like they just, they kind of want to have the reins and that's, that's, I think, but a big change. And you look back like to your point, five years ago, I think it's, that hasn't really been the inflection point. I think it was probably again, maybe more like 10 or 15, whereas like with COVID, with the economy, all sorts of things happened five years ago. And I think we've been sort of simmering since then. So, Peter, do you think this whole strategy that, you know, as Greg was saying, that they control the message, that they don't need the media as much as they used to need the media, do you think that works?

15:06I think control is the main focus. They want control. They don't want guys like me throwing grenades in from the side. and I think it works to a point and then I do think consumers are becoming more and more savvy they can sense when they're being played a little bit and I think it works intermittently depending on the company depending on the product and how they handle that. But now everything is experiential stuff. You know, it used to be all high performance. Now if you're not running some wild thing in the dirt, then you're not, you know. When I saw that new mini that's raised its ride height, and I was just like, oh, man, that's got to stop soon.

16:13And I mean, it's just, but I think the whole experiential thing, they just found other ways to do it. And my former career, I mean, the ad agencies have really taken it on the chin, you know. And how so? Well, they just, their budgets are cut. They're spending their money different ways. Some agencies control the digital presence for these manufacturers, but they're trying to control most of it on their own. So ad agencies have taken a real hit. I think, too, to your point, Peter, with, like, the agency side, in some ways, like, I think we all have friends who work for agencies. It's, frankly, like, the next thing adjacent to, like, journalists.

16:56It's writing, right? A lot of the creative elements of that, I think, has kind of been lost because carmakers just, they're not worried as much about using the middleman, whether that's an outlet or an ad agency. They just can sort of do it themselves. Like I think like sponsored posts, paid posts, whatever you want to call them. I think they really had a moment in like the 2020s, the early 2020s. And now I think those things have been hit even harder not to get too insider baseball-y, But I don't like I think if anything, automakers are maybe still looking at like traditional ads more than like that paid promotion sponsored thing that really did have a moment where they're like, hey, we'll have the magazine's studio write the story for us or we'll have XYZ ad agency write it.

17:50It does seem like the trend is to kind of pull it all in house. So, I mean, if all that happens, though, I mean, you know, it gets back to, you know, the whole reduced staffs. So. So the people who are, you know, publishers, the management of these organizations that have historically put out the magazines or who have now switched over to digital. I mean, they're getting less income. They can hire fewer people. And the people that they hire are perhaps not of the same caliber as the ones who used to be putting out the stuff, who knew stuff. Okay, so they, and so I just wonder whether it isn't a disservice to the public, meaning the reader, that, you know, it's not as comprehensive as it once was, which is then causing people to say, well, I'm not even going to bother anymore.

18:45And I'll just look at YouTube and just watch something and that'll be efficient. Well, I think there's a lot of talent still in journalism. I think in the car websites, in the cross in newspapers, websites, I think TV, you name it. I think there's still a lot of talent. I think the tricky part is the companies haven't really found out a way to have a sustainable business model. And I think I mean, some of them have, but there's fewer newspapers. I mean, the car media industry, I think, has been shrinking for a while. I mean, honestly, the crisis is writ large when it comes to like local news. Look how many small newspapers have closed.

19:30And honestly, we're talking about cars. That's important. It's a huge part of the economy. I believe in that. I know you guys do too. But local journalism is arguably the heart of democracy. You need to know what's going on with your city council, what's going on with animal control, basic things like that. So I think in some ways, like our industry, the, you know, shrinkage has been a broader symptom of what you're seeing just with media companies. And it's been, I think, both worse because like when a big magazine lays off a bunch of people, it's big news, right? But also, I think we found ways to still get, you know, stuff out.

20:12Like there's a lot of great car reviews out there, a lot of great people doing great work, I think. but when the local you know Hanover news patriot and ledger whatever closes one line and like a pointer column and the rest of the world doesn't know but I mean what's more important right so Peter over the years I mean one of the things that you've done is I mean you've not only been critical of automotive managers just a couple of them but I mean one of the things you've also done is looked at the people doing the reporting You've looked at some people that just seem too friendly in your estimation.

20:52I mean, is that still a thread that runs through things, or do you think that now it's just completely changed? No, I think the thread still runs through. I mean, when I started out at extremist.com, One comment I got from a top executive was like, I don't know where you get your information. They all thought I had moles inside. Like I said, I don't know where you get your information. And you really pissed me off. But you really pissed me off because you're right. And I'm not hearing that from my people. So that was an off-topic thing. But, you know, I still think it functions the way it did.

21:49When I started it, it was unheard of for anyone to write what I was writing. I mean, it was just like, you can't say that. And that goes back to what I was saying before. I mean, back then, if you wrote a column or something that wasn't, you know, favored upon by the car company, that the first thing you'd get would be your editor would get a call from the chief of PR saying, you know, basically, what the hell are you doing? and then if you really pissed them off, they would restrict access to the CEO or the CMO. And for a reporter back then, that was death. I mean, if you didn't have access, you couldn't write stories and inevitable bad things happen.

22:43I still think there's a measure of that going on today. I just, I don't know how it cannot be going on. you know. So, I mean, you know, you make the point about access, and I know for a fact that if certain outlets would write car reviews based on their attending a car program, and it wasn't the right messaging so far as the auto companies were concerned, that that outlet maybe didn't get invited to the next one, or the next one after that. Yeah, I think consumers realize, or auto enthusiasts realize, that for a lot of these press things, especially out of state, I mean, the journalists are paid for to go.

23:35Their travel is paid for, and it's a big-time event. But you're right. I've heard of plenty of circumstances where publications were just left off that next ride and drive program as a punishment. And if you straighten up, then maybe we'll include you on the next one. I think I've always, and maybe I've been fortunate to work for some cool places, just lucky that's the way the ball bounces. But I always kind of looked at it as the editor's job to when chief of PR calls you, it's your job to yell right back. It's not, you didn't like the story? That's great. we were right. Fine. You know, I mean, if you, you don't like the story, fine, don't invite us on the next program.

24:26We won't go. We'll cover your competitors. And I think that's one where, you know, I think you have to have that sort of integrity, that backbone to tell somebody you can go straight to hell if you don't like our story. And that's how it's supposed to be. Is that how it always works? Absolutely not. I get it. There's definitely a way the, the sausage is made in our business, of course. But I do think, you know, and it also helps if you have the luxury of being at a place where you could tell an automaker to go take a long walk off for a short dock, you know, but I do think like, that's how it's supposed to work.

25:05And that's how I think I've always tried to do it. And to me, that's like, when you're the editor, that's what you're getting paid for is to like, sort of fight those battles. So I mean, you spent you spent a decade being the editor-in-chief of Autoblog. Okay. So, so it was, it was you in that spot. Okay. So did you get those calls? Oh yeah. All the time. And honestly that to me, that's not even like something you lose sleep over. That's just part of the job. You know, it's just like right up there with writing your weekly column and signing the expense reports, you know, and you just, you do the best you can.

25:39And you know, a lot of times you kind of get into the weeds and you realize like, okay, like there's a couple of different ways it can be unpacked. One, like, okay, maybe you made a mistake that happens, you know, that's like everybody's human or you start to realize, well, they didn't like what you wrote because you were right. And everything like, you know, it really is your job to dig in and, you know, throw grenades right back and that's fine. You know, I mean, again, if they didn't invite us on a trip, okay, that's great. You know, that's fine. We have, we'll go on the next one with somebody else.

26:14So I think that's, to me, that was very important. Um, to me, that was more important than like giving a great review about some thousand horsepower hot rod. It was more important to, um, try to take those positions. And that was as much part of the job as anything else. So, you know, Peter, you mentioned about, you know, the trips and, and, you know, so, they pay for the airfare, they pay for the hotel. But unless someone had a job, they were not getting paid. I mean, the freelancer would write the story and get paid. But my understanding is now that there are influencers that they are getting paid by the car companies to go on these trips and then to write whatever they were going to write.

27:07How do you both see that affecting what people are receiving, what people are getting from this? Well, I'm not going to generalize about the influencers, but I think they're more malleable than some of us more traditional writers and journalists. And I think the auto companies are finding that to be fertile ground for what they're trying to do. They get the kind of response they want. And, you know, maybe it's devolved to that now. That's the last thing we need as a journalist here. Let's get some more influencers. Yeah. I think, you know, I think change is inevitable. And I think like influencers, you know, I mean, it's, it's part of the new sort of lay of the land.

28:05And I think it's, it's important to kind of embrace that. You know, I've worked with influencers a lot. Many of them are journalists, frankly, they're just like freelancers. It's like, it's sort of, to your point, Peter, you can't really paint with a broad brush because somebody might be on a sponsored trip that's totally paid for. Somebody else might be basically a freelancer with like a sub stack, you know, and it's like, there's big differences. between them. I think one bad example is the influencers that were gathered for any Tesla event. They all seem to be cheerleaders, and I think that was a low point.

28:46I think there are definitely, like, I don't know if that's fringe or if that's more than we might like to admit, but, I mean, I think that's sort of like where you're like, okay, this is pretty clear. We're getting like a cheerleader people for this type of brand. You know, in defense of some influencers, like I've seen many of them that have good followings that adhere to journalistic principles. They do 10 or 12 TikTok shortcuts, everything. And the traditional journalists go back and have three drinks at the bar. Right. So I think it's, I think it's done properly. I think there's definitely space for it.

29:23You know, I mean, I don't know. I'm a freelancer. Maybe I'm an influencer. I don't know. Yeah. There's definitely space for it. I just think it's definitely changed. Yeah. Yeah. But as you said, change is inevitable. All right. So, so one, one more before we take a break and then we'll move on to other topics. Okay. So if a young person came to you now and said, I want to become an automotive journalist, would you say that's a great idea or would you say uh well maybe you ought to think about something else for your career um you know have you thought of becoming i don't know a butcher i mean it's just peter what do you think you know uh when it's good it's really good you know like i said i at this point i don't have any regrets because when it's good it was fun it's the same thing in the ad biz when people used to come up to me and ask me, would you do the ad biz again?

30:24I said, oh, yeah, it's ridiculously high highs and just devastating lows all in one week or one day. But there's an addictive quality to the ad biz that keeps people coming back. And I think a young person wanting to be involved in the auto business, cover the auto business, I'm not going to dissuade them. I'm just going to say it's not going to be easy. And we're at a point in our industry, in this country, where things are pretty shaky. And so it's not, you're going to have a tough road, but if you want it bad enough, you can get there. I would agree with that totally. Like, I have no regrets.

31:10I think it's been a great career for me. I like the work. I like writing. I like editing. I like podcasts. And if you were 21, 22 coming out of college and you're like, should I do this? You're like, go for it. And then you just kind of have to think, what is your appetite for risk and uncertainty? And what is your ability to change? Because your job's going to change every couple of years. And your industry is going to change nonstop. So you've got to be, it's different than other fields. It's just, it's not someplace you're going to work for a long time. It's just going to completely change.

31:47And if you sign up for that, Hey, I mean, it's what we all signed up for, right? Okay. So we're going to take a quick break here, hear from our friends at Alex partners in Bridgestone, and then we'll be back and we'll talk about a bunch of other stuff that isn't necessarily what we do for a living. So, okay. Take a break. We act, we grow, we transform, we protect, we rescue. In moments that define the future, we are the partner you can trust. Alex Partners, when it really matters.

32:27Knowing that a little rain won't slow down your day, that's what really matters. Bridgestone Toronto Quiet Track Tires. confident control in wet conditions.

32:41Okay, and we are back. So as I promised, we'll be talking about some other things, including, okay, so last week, the Q3 sales numbers came rolling in. And so among the numbers, GM reported a 5.5 % drop during the third quarter compared to the same last year. Year to date, GM is down 5.4%. Toyota in Q3 had a 0.6 % increase and was up 1.1 % year to date. Ford sales fell 6.6 % in the third quarter. and it's down 8.7 % year over year. Do you guys, anything surprise you in the numbers that came out? No surprises. I just think it's like right now things are choppy, if you will. Costs are high. I think people are holding tight to their pocketbooks a little more.

33:49I think the automaker's product mixes are in a state of flux. I think we're at a point where I'm not sure where people are as far as buying big trucks with gas prices, diesel prices. Ironically, I think the portfolio of EVs across the industry is better than it's ever been. But the market has actually shrunk in the last few years for a variety of reasons. So I think it's just kind of the state of kind of like choppy seas and people aren't really looking to pull the trigger on things. I think used cars aren't the deals that they used to be. So I think people are just kind of like, I think there was the J.D.

34:31Power report that said the average age of vehicles are among the highest they've been in, like on record. Maybe it wasn't J.D. Power, but somebody in it. I think that's where people are at. They're just not looking to spend money. It's an election year, you know? I think that's kind of, you're seeing that across industries, but especially in the car business. I think affordability is still absolutely key. And, I mean, our domestic tourist manufacturers have sort of created a monster that they keep feeding, that they assume that if they keep selling high-ticket trucks and SUVs that they will overcome this slide and this uncertainty in the market due to tariffs and all that stuff.

35:29But I think the U.S. manufacturers are severely lacking in affordable vehicles. And the hybrid offerings from Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai are just gobbling up market share. I think right now, if you have commodity vehicles at a really competitive price with a hybrid, I think, I mean, exactly to your point, you see Honda, Toyota, Kia, that is what people want. And that is where you're meeting sort of the consumer where they're at. Whereas I think the Detroit three don't have quite that much strength in that area. Smaller vehicles, hybrids, you know, it's like all electrics. That's great. A huge truck and SUV.

36:18And of course, performance Ford, Chevy, Stellantis, great performance lineups. But given the fact that people I think are being tighter with their money, a lot of those vehicles aren't what people are looking to spend their money on right now. Maybe next year. Who knows? A couple of years ago. Sure. but I think we're in this weird kind of purgatory right now with the automotive market. So, you know, sort of to your point, Peter, and yours as well, Greg. So Mike Anderson, the GM vice president of Propulsion Engineering was on CNBC and said, quote, we're not tone deaf to our customers. We know what they want and we want to give them, give them that, give that to them as quickly as we can.

36:59And the, you know, the issue was that of, okay, the only hybrids that General Motors has right now are both Corvettes. Okay. Which is a good thing in some ways.

37:13Well, although it's not a good thing if you want to sell somebody a, you know, a midsize. A$40 ,000. Yeah. The Corvette is a good hybrid. They should have something else on the table. Yeah, and so Auto Forecast Solutions, our friends who are watching us, expect GM to begin offering PHAVs in late 2027 to early 2028 with a 75-mile EV range. Yeah, but think about late 27 or 28. I mean, that's a long time from now. Yeah, so I sort of wonder, you know, so, you know, Anderson says, well, we're not tone deaf, okay? That sure looks like you were anyway. I mean, but, you know, so I looked, so over the last, since 2020, okay, so General Motors has basically gotten out of the hybrid sphere.

38:15And Toyota has sold 4.5 million hybrids since 2020. and that's incredible so what's I mean I mean how did they miss the memo

38:37they walked away from passenger cars they just said look crossovers SUVs are what the buyers want and we're going to give it to them plus big trucks and we're just put on the gas and, you know, forget about the lower level of market. We'll figure it out later. Basically what it is. I mean, if you look at like, maybe kind of zoom in on Chevy, you know, they have the Trax, the Trailblazer, like a bunch of things at the bottom part of the lineup. It seems like that's where you could interject a Malibu or an Impala or something. It doesn't have to be huge, but just like a car that's$35 ,000. You could even lift it a little bit and make it almost like a crossover, give it a hatchback.

39:27Don't make it a hybrid. All we need is like an artist's rendering of this thing, right? It could be a magazine cover. There aren't any magazines anymore, don't we? Don't you? Weren't you here for the first part of the thing? All right. I do recall that. Something like that that could be a winning product, you know? And I think Ford, the same. Although the interesting thing is they're banking on this smaller truck that Farley is talking about. They're going to build it in Kentucky, right? And that's great. I like what I've heard of this. I've seen the spy photos or the photos they released that are camouflaged.

39:59You've already said it's delayed. It's going to be delayed. Really? Mm-hmm. All right. All right. So a small EV truck. Okay. Is that the right product for Ford to bring out? if it wants to get volume because, you know, EVs are now 6 % of the market. Six, okay? I'm guessing convertibles might be 6%. I mean, probably not, but I just don't get it. With that one, I think specifically, like, it makes sense for Ford to lean into trucks because they have such a strong just halo of everything truck. so sure do it I kind of think and I'm sure the EV truck could be fun to drive and useful in many ways this is one where I feel like having a hybrid application could be really helpful for them like something that gets 45 miles to the gallon and you know they have the Maverick and when they first brought it out it was almost an afterthought and I thought it was the most significant vehicle in their portfolio and I still do And so if I were them, I would be building offshoots of that.

41:17A full EV compact pickup, it might fly, but I don't know. But does it fly with sufficient numbers to make a difference? Yeah, well, I think the EV thing is going to be like a boomerang. You know, it took a nosedive. The current administration made some anti-EV, blatantly anti-EV decisions, which hurt everybody. But I just think, given the global big picture of things, that that EV thing is going to come back strong. now this is going to make sense for the small Ford EV pickup I don't know, I agree with Greg it should be a hybrid you should be able to get it both ways like the new BMWs you get as a matter of fact I drove the iX3 and I was just wowed by it it was the best EV I've driven and it might be the best car I've driven recently.

42:31It was quite impressive. Of course, it's not affordable per se. It's$67 ,000. Well, given that the average transaction price now is, you know. 50. Yeah. It's amazing. It really is. Yeah.

42:55So speaking of some expensive cars, J.D. Power came out with its 2026 U.S. automotive brand loyalty study. And Porsche is highest among the premium brands for the fifth year running. And its loyalty is 61.3%. BMW is second at 49.3%. I mean, that seems to be a rather, you know, people obviously love Porsche more than they love their BMWs, and they go buy another one. I mean, that's what this loyalty is about. You know, they look, you know, J.D. Power looks and says, okay, let's see what person owns, what they buy next. Okay, so that's how they're characterizing loyalty. um in the in the premium suv brands lexus is at the top it's got a 59.2 loyalty rate um now in this case bmw is pretty close behind them at 56.4 so there's you know it sort of struck me as being odd because when i think about a lexus or i think about a bmw you i don't think about an suv yeah but i um in the mass market car brands for the fifth consecutive year it's um toyota with 64.8 loyalty rate which is damn solid and honda second at 57.5 percent you know people are going back to buy another one and then toyota also takes the suv mass market segment with 63.8 % loyalty and Honda again, the second at 63%.

44:38Um, now in trucks, Ford takes it five years running. Um, it's got a 66.2 % loyalty rate. Um, the highest loyalty rate in the study across the board and Toyota is second in trucks, 62.2%. That's kind of shocking. Um, Now, the thing that struck me as being shocking is that when this was announced, that Tyson Jomany, who is the senior VP of OEM customer success at J.D. Power, said, quote, many of the leading brands import top-selling models, and if tariff costs were passed through to the consumers, loyalty could have suffered. Instead, loyalty is getting stronger. Very few brands ever reach a 60 % loyalty rate, Yet four of this year's five highest ranked brands are in the 60 % range and some segments are closing in on pickup truck loyalty levels, a sector well known for its exceptional loyalty.

45:39Now, what I found to be talking about this is it seems that companies are eating the tariffs. How long is that sustainable? Well, they're eating them, except now the prices are going up again. So they're baking them into the prices. I mean, Audi, for one, is really slammed, and they're baking them into their prices. And I think BMW is, and Mercedes, and certainly Porsche is. I mean, the Porsche prices have just climbed astronomically in the last five years. I think there's a reasonable amount that customers are willing to pay more for their favorite brands, especially if they're like at a level of prestige, you know, like a Porsche, for example.

46:37I also think like, I mean, I mentioned earlier, it feels like the industry is kind of in this like gray area, kind of like purgatory. I wonder if automakers are like kind of hedging their bets, wondering if, you know, in a few years, the political climate changes in the U.S., different Congress, different president, perhaps, and suddenly, well, there will be a different president, but maybe a different, you know, party president, and the tariffs go away. And it's easier to deal with that now, like eat those costs versus having to redo your whole price structure in a few years. You know, like if you're Audi, you can't suddenly be charging crazy amounts of money for your vehicles and then be like, hey, we're going to give you a rebate, you know.

47:22So I think they're kind of treading water in that sense. So, you know, sticking with Porsche for a minute. So the Wall Street Journal reported that Porsche said it will offer more high-end vehicles with an average selling price of$371 ,596. And the CEO, Michael Letters, said, quote, The ultimate goal is to further strengthen our unique sports car brand across all model lines and with new, highly desirable models in particularly high-margin segments. Well, I mean, the 911 prices, the base 911 now is$133 ,000. And most of the ones you see for sale are approaching$200 ,000. That's a completely different thing for Porsche.

48:16Now they are going full-on exotic pricing. And I don't know. I get the impression the CEO thinks it's sustainable. I don't know if it is. I feel like that's almost like the last couple years with Jeep, where it seemed like they were trying very hard to be a luxury brand, and then they sort of kind of tacitly admitted like, Oh, yeah, that hurt them. Yeah, we got to kind of make it so other people can buy a Jeep. And I would tread carefully if I were Porsche, you know, because I think in affordable, relatively speaking, 911 is a wonderful thing. It doesn't have to have all the electronic bells and whistles that we want.

48:57But, I mean, right now, if you want to get into the Porsche brand, what do you do? You get a Macan or a Cayman or a Boxster? Well, except they deleted the Cayman and the Boxster for. Yeah. And they're going to be without that particular car until 28, and it'll be an EV. Well, I heard they might actually maybe go back with some gas. Yeah, do both. but I mean, they just, and then the Macan is a new one's not until 28. So I don't know. Tough to start at the top of the market when you're trying to get people in and you're just assuming your clientele is like the 1%, I guess. Like it didn't exactly to your point, it didn't used to be that way.

49:45It felt like it was more of a motorsports heritage with them that did cost a lot of money, but it was somewhat attainable. Oh, yeah. The 911 used to be approachable. Yeah. But that was five, seven years ago. Now it's... That's where I give Corvette some credit is like you can still get into a Corvette with the base essence of a Corvette for a relatively reasonable price. And I think that's a... Yeah, I think Chevrolet has done a tremendous job with Corvette. I mean, you can still get one if you want for around 80. Yeah. maybe even slightly less and you have all the performance you can handle so you know one of the things I wonder about Porsche is getting rid of 8 ,900 people I mean it had owned 45 % of Bugatti Rimac and it sold that so it could get some money and you know I just wonder you know what this says I mean whether it's Porsche or just the industry at large that you know people are saying oh we got to pick these spots now and we've got to embrace them and forget everything else.

50:52This is where it's going to be. Well, he's making a big bet on that. That's for sure. So earlier this week, we saw that Jaguar brought out the type 1, or maybe it's 0-1, I don't know. 0-1. 0-1. Sounds like a blood alcohol level, right, or something? So in 2025, Jaguar sold 1 ,159 vehicles in the United States. Okay, so 1 ,159 vehicles. So I looked. Now, Jaguar pricing was from$57 ,000 to$95 ,000. It was just out of curiosity, and this is not an apples-to-apples comparison, except for the fact that they're both, quote-unquote, British brands. McLaren sold 1125 vehicles in the United States. Their pricing was 219 ,000 bucks to 370 ,000 bucks.

51:56Okay. Yet they sold, you know, like 30 cars are difference, you know, I mean, in the thing. Yeah. Okay, so first, Peter, what is your sense of the type 01? Well, I write about design in my columns a lot, and one of the toughest things, assignment for designers, is status quo versus design reach. and design reach is a very, very shaky area. On the one hand, the Type 01 compares relatively nicely to the Rolls-Royce Scepter, the Bentley Torquau, and the Abomination Ferrari Luce, because it's going to, they say 135, that's a fictional price. It's probably going to be closer to 175. It's got presence.

53:06It doesn't have to be your cup of tea. But the thing about Jaguar is they're a non-existent car company. They're damn near out of business. So you have to look at this 01 as a total relaunch of the brand, which they suggested with that weird commercial they did two years ago, which got panned. So on the one hand, I get where they're coming from with it. And it's like a startup. Unfortunately, I mean, it looks like a Kia, an expensive Kia EV from the front. The back three-quarter to seven-eighths isn't bad. But the most shocking thing about it is how bad the interior is. I mean, it is so plain and so of the EV idiom right now and have, you know, that it's just a disappointment.

54:07And the one thing I want Jaguar to do is never bring up their previous historic vehicles again. Like they actually said in somewhere in the race that the front end reminds you of the E-Type. Wow. And that's just gulp fiction. I mean, that's just wrong. So you have to look at them as a startup. As a startup, I get it. Does it appeal to me? Not really. But I'm not going to sit there and condemn them because I know what they're trying to do, and it's so difficult. They're basically a new car company. It's a startup. But why does it exist? well we're going to find out why it exists I mean they've decided to not lean on their D-type, E-type C-type classic vehicles and I think that's the right strategy and they're going to have to go get new buyers and they may just get it they're only going to aim it at LA, Miami, and New York so they might have a good shot at it because LA, you see the Escalade IQs rolling around, and the same with Miami.

55:27So, you know, the first on the block people will embrace it, but after that, is that enough to keep that brand relaunched? I don't know. I was surprised it sort of came to this, to be honest, that like a brand that was, I mean, relatively common, like, you know, you saw them on the streets, you could buy one there were jaguar dealerships they were in the press fleet like it's interesting with the mclaren example like mclarens were like unicorns but you knew they were out there a jaguar you might drive one once a month if you lived a fortunate life in the press fleet or just you know you you could buy one to see the sort of downturn of the company was surprising to me i I mean, I drove the F-Pace, I think the SVR, that was the big V8 one.

56:16That was pretty good. Like, they didn't have to totally, in my opinion, like flip the script. Like, they didn't have to totally start over. I mean, financially, maybe they did. I'm not totally up on all that. But it seems like this is an aggressive relaunch. And that's fine. You got to take risks in the car business and life, I guess. Concept's cool, I guess. Maybe it's not. But to me, it's like, you know, the 001 thing is cool, but it's like, I feel like they need more. They need to tell us more. They've sort of hinted at what they're going to do next. But I mean, I'm just surprised it's come to this.

56:51Like I drove an Aston Martin a couple of weeks ago and like, I don't know what their sales numbers are, but they're still around. They have three things you can drive. They have a DBX SUV that's pretty big. And I wouldn't say it's affordable, but it's attainable for like people who are shopping for Aston Martins. And it's like, those are two pretty good examples of how to stay relevant. And they kind of let it slip through their fingers when I think they were actually in a better position than either one of those brands 15 years ago. And then it just kind of all went away. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just wonder that, okay, so it's, you know, Jaguar Land Rover.

57:28So it's, you know, with Land Rover. But last year I checked and I looked at there's Jaguar represents 6.2 % of the global sales of Jaguar Land Rover. So it's, you know, at what point is there a decision made? You know what? There are too many car brands. Some have to start going. and you know isn't isn't that sort of signaling that you know if you come back you know if you come back all you know guns blazing you're still going to be very very small i think there is a niche for them though like if you look at like what uh how gm brought back the hummer brand is a sub brand they have two products they both have a mission um they're pretty wild like if you see on the street, you know exactly what that thing is.

58:25I think they could have a limited case for that with Jaguar. Again, this whole like large kind of far out sedan type thing, almost like with Cadillacs doing with the Celestic. I don't know. I think they might just be better off to a sports car and do like a sports sedan. And I mean, I'll write the product plan for them. Not that they're asking me, but maybe just keep it simple. Do that. Do like a Corvette fighter or something. And it almost goes back to the heritage of Jaguar where they would like, there were a few importers on the East Coast. It was a little harder to get a Jaguar, but you could do it.

58:59You know, they ran advertising in select markets. I don't know. I don't happen to think this particular product execution is really the right way to go. But I think there's a spot for them in like the automotive world. They just need to, I think, pick their spots a little better. Yeah, I just, you know, I get back to, okay, if, you know, in 25, they sold a little over 1 ,100 cars in the United States. I mean, that's damned expensive. You're not wrong. To be able to build that few cars. I mean, you've got to employ people to do that. You've got to have a factory to do that. And, I mean, how do you do it?

59:44I mean, its owner is at some point going to have to say, this is crazy. We can't afford to do this anymore. And they're not as well positioned as Land Rover, which obviously everybody loves SUVs all day long. Land Rovers will give you a hybrid. Land Rover has, I believe, a plug-in hybrid. I don't think they're doing amazing, but like the other two British brands we mentioned, they're hanging in there. They're relevant. I see ads for Land Rover with the dog chasing the ball and the guy driving it. Like they're still out there. Whereas exactly to your point, Jaguar, like I know they're still in business, but I don't think your average person does.

1:00:24They don't want the average person though, do they? No, they clearly don't. Which is good if they can get that on average person. Yeah. But there's got to be enough of the on average person who is willing to pay the kind of money that you were talking about for this type of one, but we don't have that money. So, all right, Greg Migliore. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me, Peter DiLorenzo. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. And thank all of you for watching and we'll be back next week. Auto line after hours is brought to you by Alex partners. For more than 40 years, we have helped companies and their stakeholders around the world harness opportunity, overcome challenges, and achieve outsized outcomes.

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