The Hidden Recession Beneath The AI Bubble w/ Paul Kedrosky

25:53But the inflation is actually something exogenous, something different than what they expect. It's being driven by this CapEx and by this anomalous war. So as a result, as this unwinds, and it will unwind, the war will end and CapEx will taper off. you actually have high rates in a weak consumer environment, which is a classic precursor to what... There's an economist named Richard Koo who's written a lot about the Japanese 15-year recession that sort of went on and on and on. People called it the happy recession. Yeah, the lost era. So those are classic precursors to those kinds of recessions because you now have companies that have loaded their balance sheet up and it will take a decade for them to unwind all this debt.

26:34So rates will have no impact on them. They'll simply be trying to cut spending to reduce debt, and that will play out over the next 10 years. We've got all the pieces in place right now for a very long balance sheet recession analogous to what happened in Japan in its last decade. And what does a balance sheet recession look like? Because this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot, where, okay, you bump up interest rates. but when a lot of the reason the interest rate like when inflation is happening in one specific area specifically to companies that are not interest rate sensitive let's be very clear about this like soft bank sb energy is trying to raise at 10 yeah like just what what are you doing here like core weave raises at nine ten percent and the hype yeah six or seven percent they are going to keep raising no matter what, what does that lead to?

27:29What is this balance sheet recession? So what happens is, and leaving aside for a second some of the more, how shall I say, less investment-grade prospects out there, the core weaves and others, because they face a different problem, which is as they try to roll over their debt, it may come at on terms over the next five years that force them into some species of insolvency, and that's fairly typical. But Let's say you're a hyperscaler, some of the largest companies out there that don't face solvency risk. They're not going to likely go broke. What they're going to spend the next decade doing is cleaning up their balance sheet.

28:00Because they just went from some of the least indebted companies in the market, tech historically had very low levels of long-term and short-term debt, to some of the most indebted companies in the economy. And we see this as they sort of soak up all their cash flow. And in the case of some of these guys, increasingly teeter on the edge of having their credits rating downgraded. What a balance sheet recession means is essentially I'm having to put myself into a debt workout and say, I'm going to spend the next 10 years getting all this debt off my balance sheet again because I don't want to have it there anymore because it's no longer required for ongoing purposes because I'm not spending that heavily in future and I'm being punished for it because I have this huge debt obligation.

28:42So think about the consequences. You're not spending on growth, you're not spending on employees, and you're trying to unwind all this debt and get it off your balance sheet. So a balance sheet of recession is a workout where heavily indebted companies, regardless of interest rates, continue to try and get themselves less leverage, get the debt off their balance sheets. And so the problem is, of course, this is going to come at a time when there's already other pressures on hiring, the AI effects at the margin. So the effects overall on hiring will be even more dramatic because companies will be focused entirely on deleveraging.

29:17So at the same time as they're looking for opportunities to use AI to have fewer people around. So this will be really consequential over the next five years and it's really not well understood that we kind of sit on the edge of a Japan moment in terms of the likelihood of a balance sheet recession given that there's this really profound misunderstanding of what the causes are of inflation in the economy and what the effect that rates are going to have. And we're actually sitting in a kind of deflationary moment masked by what's happening in AI. How does that manifest for regular people? So for regular people, your expectation should be that over the next year or so, we'll start seeing increasing signs that the economy is much weaker than people expect.

29:59And as a result, we'll probably be heading into a relatively longer recession, which is inevitable after a moment like this, A longer recession than people expect that with a few policy errors could easily be something on par with what often is called a depression. So a recession that turns into a depression, which means multi-year and really consequential in terms of companies themselves becoming insolvent as they try to work off debt. So the problem, of course, is normally when that happens, the government steps in in a Keynesian way and tries to replace the lost consumer spending with increased fiscal spending.

30:36And the problem, of course, is that most, and there was a great IMF report out this week showing that most countries around the world are basically all fiscal stimulused out because we've gone through multiple episodes over the last 15 years. And so there isn't a lot of headroom anymore to bail out your own economies as we approach this inevitable moment. So your expectation as a consumer should be that the so-called, you could call it the Bernanke put, this idea that Ben will save us. And then it was the Greenspan. And that just isn't possible. It's not possible here. Right. And in particular because fiscal policy is being increasingly rendered impossible because of the indebtedness of major sovereigns around the world.

31:17and monetary policy rates, as we've been discussing, is almost impotent because of the nature of what's going on. So you have this double whammy problem. So it's just, so there'll be, I feel like there's one thing with your idea here that I'm pushing back on, which is we haven't seen the AI side actually in productivity. So it just kind of feels like everything will get more expensive, more people will get laid off, and then nothing will happen. Like, it's not like there's... Oh, no, no, listen. Replacing them with AI. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have option A and option B, and both of them are bad, right?

31:54So either one leads to, whether companies are just experimenting madly because they feel they must, and they discover that there's the productivity benefits aren't really there, or they find some productivity benefits, however modest, and they use that as a justification for further cuts to workforce. The consequences economy-wide are the same. You're into a multi-year recession, and then because of this balance sheet problem, something that teeters on the edge of being a depression or at least a decadal workout like the happy recession in or the last decade in Japan. So what finally stops hyperscalers borrowing?

32:31Because at this point, it kind of feels like they don't care. But at the same time, where are the limits on this? Because I've seen like 300, 400, 500 billion dollars thrown out as how much they'll have to raise in the next year or two. Yeah, no, that's for sure. So there's physical limits and there's financial limits. So physical limits, obviously, we're already seeing. There was a great piece in the FT the other day talking about how, and it's so loopy to me, to use the technical term, like how dramatically short we are in terms of the amount of power required to power up all of the GPUs that are currently sold and forecast to be sold.

33:09And you've been really good on this, showing something doesn't make sense in here. There's a dramatic disconnect. There is a really big disconnect. It genuinely worries me. I think you're spot on with that. There's all kinds of reasons for what's happening there. The math doesn't work in terms of our ability to power up data centers on a scale commensurate with the numbers of GPUs being sold and the data centers, I won't say built, but at least specced. There's a natural physical limit in here, But the system is the issue that I look to. So the system is telling you, through what's happening with inflation, what's happening with the 10-year, that it's under immense stress.

33:50The system is under immense stress. Right, so that means the interest rates are high. So when the interest rates are high, sorry, I've got to be, for my sake and listeners. When the interest rates are high, that is the system kind of screaming a little. Yeah, the system's screaming at you and saying, I don't know where this money's going to come from, so I'm going to have to raise. The system is autonomously doing this. There's no individuals out there. There's no one like the Von Trapp family or something. There's no one actually doing this and saying, I'm going to raise it. So the system is raising rates because it says, you know what, I need to bring money out of unusual places because the only way that we can justify or get enough capital for what you say you need is by having rates go higher and pull in capital from other places.

34:27And so the system, that's really just a sign of stress because what happens next is the hurdle rate, The amount that the data centers have to earn goes up constantly as a result of the rising tenure. So the tenure has gone up like 100 basis points over the last, so 1 % roughly over the last six months, or even the last three months, which is crazy. So that directly translates into the funding costs for new data centers, but it doesn't stop there. Because if the tenure goes up 100 basis points, the spread goes up even more. Meaning that it's not just that I now have to put out my debt at 100 basis points higher.

35:06The system recognizes that this is a stressful moment. And so the spread between the rate at which you raise and the rate on 10 years, which is often something you use to anchor the cost of financing, might go at 150. It might go at 200 basis points because the system's under stress. So every time you see rates increased, say to yourself instead, that, oops, it just got a lot more expensive and difficult for data centers to justify the future cash flows on top of which they're building these data centers. And so, to answer your question, we're within 6 to 12 months on the outside of that aspect of it all breaking.

35:41Because it's very clear that they're not going to earn 11 and 12%, which are the kinds of numbers we're seeing at the most stressed end of the market, 10 plus anyways. That's not going to happen. There's no economics that does that. so but there's also another problem which is for the hyperscaler debt that's already been sold right so the bondholders are now effectively making less money on that as in their bonds that's worth less because there's new debt that's paying better so anyone who's invested anyone any bond investors who have invested earlier will probably hold them to maturity meaning they'll get paid off but at the same time they're underlying they have no choice but yes yeah Right, that's exactly right.

36:20But that in turn has consequences because that debt is collateral. No one just holds anything. That's used as collateral for other economic activity that I'm doing, whether it's leverage or other borrowing. And so as this debt becomes less valuable, it reduces my ability to other things in the economy as a functioning kind of economic actor. And so you have to always think about it. I like to point people, there's some great books out there by people like Donna Meadows and others. Think about it in systems terms. You have to always connect everything to everything. And what happens whenever the debt becomes less valuable?

36:53Okay, I can't do as much. Well, what are the consequences of that? Like connecting everything for whatever reason is really hard for people to do. And the system's telling you, it's telling you, it's screaming at you, whether it's the world trade data, the inflation data, the 10-year data, that the system is both under stress and wildly connected. And all of these pieces are reaching breaking points. But what makes it, what exhausts the system? Like what slows this down? because one of my moments of naivete was believing that good sense would take over. That's never happened in history. I've now read a lot more history and realizing...

37:28That's not a thing. Yeah, so what is it that actually exhausts this? Where are the limits of the money? I'm not asking for a time period so much as an event series. I say this all the time, but I think it's overdetermined, meaning there's so many ways this can break because of all of the ways in which the system is under stress, whether it's in trade flows, whether it's in the likelihood of a balance sheet recession, whether it's in the increasing hurdle rate on new data center debt issuance. All of these are places it can break. My guess is it breaks in somewhere, because this is the way these things tend to go, it breaks in somewhere unexpected, like we have a botched 10-year treasury auction.

38:07Wouldn't surprise me at all. By which you mean there is insufficient demand for it? That's correct, yeah. They said, here's how much we'd like to sell. We can't sell that at anywhere near this price. If you saw something like that happen, which would be an artifact of what's happening in AI data centers, the spreads on 10 years would blow out, meaning they would get much wider, they would get much larger, and the rates would go higher, but it would explode your ability to raise debt at any economic price in the world of data centers, whether you're a hyperscaler or a junk issuer, it doesn't really matter.

38:40The system's telling you it's on the edge of that right now. And so that would surprise me zero in part because people like Scott Besson are saying that could never happen, which for me is always, you never say never when it comes to this stuff. And I will say a friend of mine in fixed income has told me that in the event you ever hear about the treasury or sorry, the, um, is it the treasury that sells bonds, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Not, not pleased to do that. If you ever hear about a technical issue, the delayed an auction, that's what happened. That's what I've been told. Like if there's a, Yeah, if you ever hear about there being a tech...

39:14Yeah. Okay, so... That's exactly right. So for me, that's the place to look because what's happened is this stuff has, as I keep saying, it's kind of metastasized outside the orthodox places. And tech bros are really bad at thinking in these terms because they think exclusively in terms of it's Christmas morning and look, there's all these gifts for me under the tree and I don't really care how it's being paid for because that historically was a relatively defensible way of looking at things. was I don't know what's going on in, I don't know, fiber optic cables, but all I know is it's now cheap for me to get streaming movies.

39:47The difference this time is that the scale is so consequential that it's actually distorting not just trade flows, not just inflation, but also the very essence of what it is to be an independent sovereign. Yeah, it just feels like there is something, like it's not going to be that they just borrow too much, it's just the system is going to exhaust itself somehow. Oh, no, no, no, the system will crack. There's no question in my mind that it'll crack. It'll probably happen, and it could start in Europe and come this way, but it's going to be a sovereign issuance problem where someone's going to have a technical issue with a major issuance at around probably sort of a 10-year duration, and then that'll float around the world, cause spreads to blow out, which will have consequences in terms of the existing debt and the solvency of all of these people playing in this area.

40:34And again, not because AI isn't useful in many contexts or whatever else. I won't even get into that debate. Just because the scale of the problem dictates this must happen. And the system is telling it, but people don't want to listen.

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42:47It feels just impossible. Like, they can't afford all the CapEx next year. Like, we've established that. so at some point at some point they just I mean hyperscalers must have a point at which it's too hot for them there must be a point when it's too expensive, it just depends on how it becomes it's the Chuck Prince line from back in the GFC from the financial crisis, as long as the music keeps playing I keep dancing you can't stop it's a classic collective action problem no different than the collective action problem whenever Dario put out the memo a couple of weeks ago asking for a frontier pacing slowdown, blah, blah, blah, and leaving aside whether you thought that was a good idea or a bad idea, you instantly found the system thrown into a prisoner's dilemma where you could tell everyone was busy trying to find an angle to defect because if we all cooperate, but I defect, I make more money than anyone else, and you're right back into a race again.

43:43The exact same thing is true in the context of fundraising. If all of your peers suddenly stop raising money because they see this as a collective action problem and we're walking off a precipice, great. I'm the only guy left who's still out there raising prodigious amounts of money. I get to own the market. And of course, on goes the race because then everyone sees that and they all defect and we're right back where we were before. So you mentioned, do you have any idea around what the payoff now needs to be on a data center to make it worth it? I'm surprised I haven't sat down and done the math.

44:16Yeah, so you just can do it from a yield standpoint. I mean, so the median is now around 7.2%. So you can do the math pretty easily in terms of, but let's think about it. What does that mean? Sorry, just... So that's what the hurdle, right? That these things are required to earn back, to justify, to attract investors at the investment grade end of the marketplace. It's more like 10 % at the junk. So it's like you need to earn 7 % on the investment a year? Sorry. That's right. That's right. So that's what debt investors are telling you they will take. So that's not the same thing as saying how much I have to earn to earn back the capital that's been spent.

44:48That's a completely different problem. I think it's unlikely you could ever earn it back, but you can at least attract debt investors on those terms. So there's two different issues here. So you basically, for a hyperscaler, you need to make about 7 % per annum. Which continues to rise, but on that order of things. Which people will say is, oh, that's really straightforward. Gavin Baker's out there telling you that the margins on these things in terms of pure inference are so high, but of course the problem is that this is the classic phenomenon of, I call it like earnings before bad things. So if I cut out all of the things that are costing me a lot of money, and then I calculate EBBT, not EBIT, but EBBT, earnings before bad things, then my cash flow is tremendous.

45:33Well then, fine, show me the hyperscalers that have stopped spending on frontier models, and I'll buy the argument that the economics now make sense purely in terms of commodity inference. But if you go to the world of saying, okay, fine, industrial inference is actually a relatively high cash flow business. Let's just grant them that. Then the question becomes, well, who's going to win that? Well, if it's just industrial inference, meaning that I'm just doing token completion sequences as low cost as possible and at the highest scale possible, that's really just an energy problem? So it's just who can throw the most energy at this?

46:06China's throwing on an annual basis roughly three times, adding three times as much capacity per year as the United States is and is already ahead of the U.S. in terms of the amount of energy it's thrown at this. So it's fairly straightforward. You're just looking at solar panels, but it happens to be tokens. So, but that's the thing, even with standing up inference, because is inference profitable? It's like the Wario is a libertarian conversation online when it comes to this stuff. It's like, and no one can really, I think it's unprofitable. But the reason I do is, is because inference isn't just, oh, I turned on the inference machine.

46:41It's you buy an allocation of GPUs and you need a certain level of saturation and a certain amount of customers to make it viable. And if you miss that demand calculation, it's horribly unprofitable. Oh, absolutely. That is a huge problem. A classic scale problem, right? It's kind of like running an airline, right? Yes, exactly. You're a very, very high fixed cost business. So either I'm fantastically profitable or I'm aft, right? And very few people are able to run it as a scale requisite to be able to generate those kinds of cash flows from covering the high fixed costs. And so this is the deep problem.

47:21And then if you take it the next step and say, if that is the nature of what's going on, and tokens are this globally fungible commodity, and so that's the market's moving towards industrial inference, it's fairly straightforward to see who the winners are going to be. And it ain't going to be OpenAI and Anthropic. Yeah, it just, it feels so inherently doomed. But now, you know what, you said Anthropic. And before we got on, you were mentioning you'd heard some strange things and I am now curious about how strange those are. Yeah, so I keep hearing these unusual things about what's going on over there.

47:53And I mean, obviously the most unusual thing was the company was racing fairly madly for reasons that didn't make a lot of sense to an IPO, which was supposedly, I think was supposed to be October 1st, was the first dates I heard. And now, allegedly, and again, this is all just financial markets and tech market babble, but it's now allegedly in November. And so that's getting pushed out. And my general thesis is that even in a good year, if you say you're going to go public late in the year, odds are at least 50 % it won't happen that year because lots of things can happen toward the tail end of the year.

48:28And of course, this one's coming after the midterm elections in the United States. Who knows whether or not any of these AI companies get nationalized in that period, so there's a forced equity stake. All of these things could radically change the likelihood of the company going public. There's raging panic inside the company about the nature of what an IPO this year would even look like, given what's happening out there. You can take it further, because let's say I'm an employee, and this is something I'm hearing from people inside. Take it further and think about it in terms of employees having exercised their options, purchased their options in anticipation of an upcoming IPO, and then the IPO doesn't happen.

49:06Well, what happens? Well, let's say it eventually... Oh, you've just dumped all your cash into buying stock or buying into your stock? You generate a massive tax bill under the IRS has this thing called AMT. So under AMT, you just bought something cheaply, your options, exercised them cheaply for a low price, and then you, in turn, have been given something with value. It doesn't care that you never got any cash out of it, that the company never went public. So I know of people... You've taxed on the stocks. That's right. So I know of people, many people, who've taken out multi-million dollar loans to exercise their options and purchase them and then are going to be phased if this thing doesn't go public this year with multi-million dollar AMT bills because the company didn't go public.

49:48So this has happened... Sorry, go ahead. Is it usual that a company... This is not a leading question. Is it unusual or usual that a company delays their IPO what appears to be twice? Because they were meant to do it in September, then it's October, now it's November. It's uncommon in general with a blue chip company. So a company that's seen to be a marquee company that the entire sell side is beating each other up to underwrite. It's more likely that it happens on schedule than not. So this is really unusual. And so there's all kinds of reasons you might anticipate why. But it's very fraught as it gets closer to the end of the year.

50:29not least because of the political consequences in the U.S., given that this thing is kind of a laser target, but also the AMT consequences for employees, this IRS AMT issue, and further, obviously, the consequences for the company itself in terms of whether or not the valuation even looks like the kinds of numbers that they've been looking at. Because, again, this is complete, complete hearsay speculation, but a vendor who's fairly close to the company told me that they had at least underperformed their expectations in the third quarter. Anthropic did? Anthropic, that's right. So they had underperformed their expectations.

51:12Now again, this was not from someone at Anthropic, this was from a third party with intimate knowledge of what the company was doing as a provider to them on a very large scale. I'm wagging my eyebrows nonetheless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. which is obviously really interesting isn't necessarily particularly surprising in the context of the numbers we keep seeing out there in terms of customer concentration token maxing as well you had that era where everyone was blowing a bunch that's right so this incredible customer concentration among customers who were token maxing and who have increasingly cut back and so whenever you have two or three customers making up 60 plus percent of your revenues and they were following a policy of token maxing or whatever else, it's not particularly surprising that you get this incredible pulse of revenues and growth at one point, and then you get a kind of air pocket later in the year.

52:06And that's exactly what it seems like we may be seeing. Yeah, and I mean, I don't know if you saw the SB Energy S1. I did. Yeah. What a dog. But also they've now pushed their IPO. It kind of feels like we're at the latter stages. I guess I've been saying that a while. But this feels like when you've got multiple IPOs being delayed with weird stuff happening around them, like there was the Anthropic story with the Financial Times, they should know better, where it was like, oh yeah, they have 80 % gross margins if you remove many of the costs. Yeah, right, the EBBT problem. Yeah, earnings before bad things again.

52:43So my general view on all of these things is, and it sort of goes back to this guy, Hyman Minsky, who talked about these sort of Minsky moments in financial markets, where financialization of the phenomenon takes over and detaches from any underlying reality, that's when things accelerate and then break. And that usually requires the public markets. It usually requires people to be dumping stuff into the public markets, investors dumping stuff. And so that's the moment we're at now. A year or two ago, there wasn't a public markets component to this in terms of directly related to the frontier companies themselves.

53:18It was mostly, obviously, the GPU and memory providers. We're now in this moment where the companies at the center of all of this are in this kind of Minsky moment where the financialization of what they're doing is so large and so broad, it's affecting everything. But at the same time, they're all very eager to dump the shares and get them out there at a credibly large scale to retail investors. and that's the moment where I think everything starts to crack and break because you realize that this is that financialization Minsky moment where everything breaks down. And you're seeing a little bit of it already with the delays and everything else.

54:00And I mean, I don't know if you saw it, but there was even back in September, was it in September? I saw that there was at least one acquisition that Anthropic walked away from that it was apparently in its late stages of trying to get done. That's right. So it was Descartes, right? Yeah, Descartes. And so, again, not to overread into these things, but what tends to happen as people approach IPO, they feel kind of omnipotent that I have like a printing press in the basement and I can buy anything and do anything. And when you see them start to pull back and think, you know what, that printing press isn't as powerful as I once thought it was, that's a really important tell about what they're seeing inside the business because the printing press in the basement doesn't look as all-powerful as it once did.

54:42well as we wrap up though I wanted to talk briefly about this OpenAI non-IPO and the fact that they're raising at either 1.7 or something well they want to raise at 1.5 trillion which is amazing, so amazing but what's great about it is apparently investors tried to preempt him and say we'll give you 1.2 according to the New York Times But then OpenAI said, no, we want 1.5. Is that not, even 1.2 feels like, isn't 1.5 kind of a suicidal private valuation based on what they'll get on the public markets? It's obviously impossible to know what demented things public markets will do if you float, and this is the key.

55:29It depends on the size of the float. Yeah, that load-bearing issue. Right? That's the thing. So if I do something like, I do a SpaceX and I float a tiny sliver of my potential public, eventual public issuance, you can get any price you want in terms of an eventual valuation. And so that'll be the key. It really comes down to how cynical Sam wants to be in terms of whatever he decides to float. Because at a small enough float, you can do anything. I can get any valuation I want in the public markets. Of course, what happens then is, at a small float, when I then bring the rest of the stock out, six months, the employees all leave lockup and all of that stuff comes to market, well, then the stock, of course, promptly craters, or at least craters in anticipation of it.

56:12And so my expectation is the higher the valuation we see today, the smaller the float will be, and the more cynical the eventual IPO will be in terms of trying to manipulate the price. Yeah, and I think my thing is, as well as just a suicidal round for investors to put money in. Oh, of course. Because SpaceX is$2 trillion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to think about it in terms of, if I'm a large institutional investor, not a retail investor, retail investors, God bless them, but if I'm putting in, say,$50 to$100 million or something like this, some giant sovereign amount of money into this at this price, my expectation has to be that I'll be able to sell fairly quickly post-IPO at a significant bump-up.

56:53Well, fine, let's say I can get the bump-up in price by floating only a small amount of the stock. You'll never be able to sell hundreds of millions of shares into that bump-up because there simply won't be the liquidity given the small size of the float. So you'll be able to, on paper, say you made some money, but in practice, you're stuck. Yeah, it all feels like, to round up everything, like there is going to just be something that snaps and everything kind of falls apart because these things don't tend to fall apart because, oh, everyone decides to pull back for ethical or moral reasons. It's part of the system breaks.

57:33and everything falls apart around them. Right, and this is it, because you can take it that next step and say, if it's this large of a piece, if it's distorting inflation, and it's distorting the tenure, and it's distorting world trade, take that the next step. That's causing, and I use this term loosely, intelligent policymakers, because I'm not sure those exist anymore, but it's causing policy to be distorted, because if you think, oh, you know what? tariffs didn't have any effect on world trade. Or, you know what? Despite the U.S. consumer being very weak, there's high inflation, so we must be something strong.

58:07You pursue all kinds of bad and self-destructive policies because you don't actually understand the mechanics of what's happening. As a result, the crack-up becomes sharper. There's a sharper delineation between the now time and the after time because of this colossal misunderstanding of the nature of what's actually going on in the economy. And this wild unwillingness of people to connect all the pieces, even at the Fed. I mean, the Fed's recent commentary on economic outcomes is so narrowly siloed and so backwards-looking and trying to reinterpret what's happening in the economy in terms that might have made sense 40 years ago, but that don't make sense in the context of what we're seeing.

58:47So people really don't have a good handle in terms of understanding these drivers, and that makes this inevitable break much more consequential. And also means that people are going to be surprised. Oh, absolutely, right. And of course, we'll have this crazy moment where even if you feel that way, people are always so nervous about, well, what happens if on a Saturday I lean over the fence and my neighbor says he bought stock in this pre-IPO and it did so well? People are just congenitally unable to walk away from that and not feel like I missed out on something, this FOMO problem. And so people, despite all of the things I'm saying, are going to walk right into this and then the crack will happen and it'll be a lot of who could have known.

59:31That's such a shame. Well, Paul, on that happy note, thank you so much for joining me on the show this week. Thanks, Ed. Good to be here. And everyone, you'll get me on a monologue this week, of course, on Friday. Thank you, as ever, for listening to Better Offline.

59:52Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Ossowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at mattosowski.com. M-A-T-T-O-S-O-W-S-K-I dot com. You can email me at ez at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat.wheresyoured.at to visit the Discord. And go to r slash better offline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

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