S6 Ep 8 | When Creativity Becomes Spiritual Ft Lady Barbara, Award-Winning Creative Director

0:04Welcome to Beyond Marketing, the podcast. I'm Maradona Vizzi. I'm the founder and CEO of MG Empower, a global integrated market agency. Today, I'm joined by the incredible Lady Barbara Ayossier, award-winning creative and style director, whose work sits at the intersection of fashion, art, film and culture. She has collaborated with global names including Netflix, Nike, Amazon, Chanel and the British Fashion Council. Bring a diverse creative vision across styling, costume design and editorial. Welcome to the Beyond Marketing podcast, Lady Barbara. What a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for having me.

0:46Wow, I was looking forward to meeting you and to have this conversation. we've met remind me we met at an event at my home actually at free free at free free yes and uh and that was it yeah that was just like a great connection and i start following you and following your work and i was just like are there something very special about late barbara and then i said to the team we need to bring her to the podcast because i'm fascinating about everything that you do but now I want to know more about your story your background your childhood let's start off introducing yourself who is Lady Barbara so first of all hi everyone lovely to meet you all and thank you Han for having me here so who is Lady Barbara so Lady Barbara Ayotsefu Sophia she is a dreamer I would say first of all and an angel and part-time human but if I go into depth as in within the earth reality I am a creative director artist style director production design and I guess visionary yes these are the things that I think sort of define me as a being at the moment And then, yeah, I'm Italian-Nigerian, first generation born and raised in Italy, in the northern Italy.

2:19I grew up there, lived there all my life. I had a very interesting childhood as being the first generation, being born there, Italy in the 90s, I guess maybe like in the north, I don't know if everywhere was like that. They had this project where they will assign families to new immigrants to help them to integrate within the community. And I was given two beautiful family whom became my godparents. And one was a farm family that had a big farm. They had a massive factory like industrialist. Yes. So, yeah, so really like I grew up between these two families. So I had a very early approach to the understanding of like nature, you know, so farming and then entrepreneurs in business, realistically.

3:16Yes, I guess that's a bit of the beginning of my life. I love the angel. Why angel? um because like i feel that i am certainly a very kind person certainly a very empathetic person and i do not have any bad bone in me for certain yeah and i've always since day one like i remember saying to my mother and my and my grandmother that I wanted to be like Martin Luther King when I was a child yeah so I guess that's kind of like a bit in jail approach oh yeah I guess and like it's just fascinating now they're telling like how you're born in Italy and grew up into like to families and the farm and entrepreneurship and now describing yourself as someone that is just like have your you know your earth who you are and they're spiritual yes barbara and where the creativity came into that combination of what you have described is it something that since your child you said that the nature was something that you have been embedded and learning and you know raised within nature how the creative came into what you do today I've always been this person um I guess because I'm so in tune with my surrounding like I translated into what we call creativity.

5:10Yes, I've always been this person, I guess also because I'm so empathetic. And I, I believe being the first generation born in a country where, you know, my parents had to adapt where I was born there. So I already I had two cultures within me. I've became quite a very early age like an anthropologist because I had to observe my surrounding to be able to fit in you know to be able to understand and also to translate perhaps to my parents whom Italian wasn't their first language you know so I guess like all of this you know like almost six senses has brought me to be a very creative person and been able to bridge all of this sort of gap and conversations and culture into something that could be a piece of editorial, a piece of photography, a painting or a campaign or a conversation or an essay.

6:17I don't know, yeah. because your walk your creativity it's very unique right it's very authentic and this is something that is very special especially in the world that we're living right now right where trends set where creativity should go where authenticity is becoming less and less but looking at the history of your work and where you are now you're keeping very consistent to who you are and how authentic you are so and then you say that a lot of what you do came from your own instinct yeah tell me more about that i have a big style so you know when I walk into any room, I walk into a room with a presence.

7:10But as a personality, I am certainly an observer more than anything. I always say I could walk into any room as a teacher, but I do prefer to be a student. And I think this element connecting to your question has basically, you know give me this instinct to be able to translate really what I'm understanding into creativity but also I don't know yeah because I'd never really judge you know I just observe you know I just try to learn and then through all my learning and my observation I put into practice and for other people also perhaps to learn and to see a little bit deeper. But that's just me as a vessel at the end of the day of God, more than anything, you know.

8:05And then it's up to people to do what they want to with this information. And how to keep relevant? Well, I guess relevant, it's about understanding the past, knowing your past understanding the complexity of your present and once you have these two equations together then you can almost see the future beautiful and when you say about like your instinctive to creative something it's just because what is your process because people have different process when they are creating right when you come to you know a briefing are you by the way are you a someone that likes to receive a like a proper briefing or you're someone that it just like two words and just come with an idea so how do you like to when you're working to your creative flow it's like a defined briefing or a more losing briefing let's say this depends you know it depends on the clientele and it really depends I'm really good with both.

9:15Normally when people come to me to collaborate with me and work with me or to ask for my expertise, it's pretty loose. They're like, this is what I have in mind. This is how I would like to achieve something. And then I just come with the journey, how to get there and the final images. But I really do not mind because it depends. obviously if I'm working as a creative director for an artist right then I'm just a vessel I'm not here to detect what I think is good I'm here to translate their feeling you know their vision into something where you know if it's a marketing big like commercial campaign then of course that I am a little bit more restricted but because I'm an anthropologist at the end of the day whatever I put into place is the understanding of the society which they need for the campaign where I come within my own personal process as my own personal project like I'm always like under this like different level of living there and then you know I just translated I don't know into images and I do a lot of research you know I take a lot of pictures and I do a lot of research online I read um and then I create sort of archives and then you know and then I translate it into a project um so yes for example in two weeks time I have I would say my biggest exhibition yet to come amazing here in London yeah here in London which is a bomba excited and be like Yeah.

11:01That's very exciting. And then like, you're a very confident woman, which I love about it, right? Because you just said, when I walk in the room, I make an impact straight away. And you do, right? Because when I met you, that was the first thing I thought, wow, what a beautiful woman with full of confidence and then very smart, but very kind at the same time. So that confidence always being there in you? No, confidence is something that you build. Like, I think my confidence really came out like when I started university in London. Growing up in Italy, because, you know, I was the only black kid all my life, really and really moved here.

11:49And being in the Western world where the idea of beauty isn't black, you know, I wasn't that confident. however I was lucky enough that I was well-spoken well-dressed light-skinned you know my family my dad did well so we were not poor so you know like I experienced racism but in a different way um but I still I I you know I lacked of confidence in the idea of beauty because you know black beauty wasn't portrayed as a beauty you know so when I moved to London for the first time I was exposed to multiculturalism I was exposed to other people looking like me different pigmentation or shade of brown and I think that's when I started to accept you know myself as a beautiful woman and never really sort of question it and also you know I I really embraced my boat culture.

12:55So my tribal essence, Igbo. I'm an Igbo woman, which is South and East Nigerian. We are the denomination of the Jewish, realistically. Igbo come from Ibrahu. In the story of the Bible, we are the, basically when Moses opened the water, you know, the Jews got someone that got lost. Someone that went to Ethiopia, and the other one went to West Africa. And that's the Igbo people. Okay, interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, but coming back to what you were saying, ask me, I really embrace my, my blood, my DNA. And then, you know, and then once you know where you stand with yourself, then nothing really can break you.

13:42you know don't get me wrong sometimes I can be so vulnerable as everyone you know but yeah my confidence comes in the fact that I know who I am and I know that I never do anyone wrong you know so you know yeah so I don't understand like why I shouldn't be confident and as I said like I always walk into any room you know I could walk into my room as a teacher but I choose to be a student so that's my humbleness into always being like ready to learn new things beautiful and London has shaped you in so many ways you would say oh yes like for sure yeah what do you define your like your biggest change since moving from Italy to London I guess definitely being able to be myself you know definitely been able to be myself it's the biggest achievement that anyone can really have you know and you know obviously like in terms of career you know I've managed to work with Chris Brown I worked with Wixgate I started my career with Little Sims, Clear Soul I was their creative director for a bit you know like I don't know like I did the global global Christmas campaign of Amazon 2020 that was amazing yeah and that was amazing and it was the first black art director working with them or for them female as well not many yes like and even for example this year I am exhibiting at Photo London in the section of positioning, which is a section dedicated to artists that their photography practice will find art.

15:34And they normally choose 10 people globally every year. Um, and I'm the only diaspora African black female, you know, there are some, this is little achievement for me, you know, It's a little achievement. It's a big achievement. you've been very humble there are big achievements and also it's just like it's amazing for you to inspire other women right that your story can make someone else's story different because of you do you feel that that you can kind of use your own voice to also embrace others to have the courage and just to achieve big things absolutely yeah I am a product or testimony of a lot of, I would say, a lot of, like, God guidance.

16:29Yeah, because my journey wasn't straight, you know, it's more the parada. But, yeah, like, yes, definitely. Spirituality and creativity. So do you combine both? Yes, 100%. How do you do that? Very interesting question. How do I do that? So the input comes from the spirit, and it translates into the understanding that I have, the coding, and it translates into a material of creativity. But the input is always divine. Beautiful. And do you listen to that divine input to you all the time? It's like it's your guidance. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm creating, I'm not on this planet. I'm there. Yeah.

17:29That's beautiful. Yeah. And like the world we're living now, right? We talk about AI and how AI is shaping creativity and, you know, like all this talking around, like how was the impact that would be on creative minds and creative work? do you believe AI can replace creativity, human creativity in a way? I don't believe it, just so you know. But I'm keen to hear from someone that is very creative as you. What's the role of AI when it comes to creativity? I think AI needs an input. Without an input, AI cannot do anything. So that's number one. It still needs a human into that. I think AI, if it's used in a good way, it can be so beneficial for you.

18:28But it cannot beat creativity. It's impossible. No, it's impossible because creativity is spiritual. Like it's not from here, really. AI is just a big, big, big, big machine full of information. it can translate but those are information from the human which comes from the brain exactly so without the human input then there is no ai so i don't think ai can beat creativity at all i think people are going to use more and more ai to save budgets that's the truth reality that's an unfortunate but still yet you will see when something is being created by a machine and when there is a human that is you just feel it you know you just feel it yeah yeah are you using it ai now for yes use more for writing writing because english is not my first language so you know when i i think a lot so sometimes like my thought i'm not structured and normally what i as to AI is to structure my thought and then he helps me to structure the thought and then and then I see patterns and then like I have you know conversations with him oh no no this is not you yeah but it's mainly yeah it's mainly more on the cerebral it's kind of like a brain story yeah yeah absolutely yes and also because you know AI it's there and it's obviously full of information so it's just very interesting and you can really take it to the next level with your questions and I'm all about philosophy and as I said anthropology ontology and all of these things so AI is great in terms of that sort of information yeah 100 % and how do you like it's like social media now it's just like becoming a source of information, trends, ideas, news.

20:35Do you consume social media a lot or not? And does social media impact in your work and the way you think? Do you structure your thoughts? Do you be creative? Do you get sometimes looking at what you're seeing in social as a trend? and do you feel like your work needs to be based on trends as well? How do you deal with this amount of information? Well, social media is a very interesting thing that humanity has created. It's very interesting thing you did. Because it's almost two worlds. There is your world and there is the world that you've decided to portray to the world. to me the use of social media it's again informative a lot of times informative not trend following at all yes it's mainly informative I do consume it I've noticed in the last maybe six months I've consumed more social media than I've ever consumed it before I have time limit.

21:46Okay. Because I like to, you know, not to do that, but I do consume it. But I don't like, it's more informative for me more than anything. And I've also, you know, I was always aware that social media doesn't necessarily portray the real world of everyone that people are going through. But it's just what they want others to see, which is the beautiful life, the beautiful bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, blah. and you know sometimes although knowing this i had to remind myself that this is just a part of life you know um i am very envious of people that don't need social media i'm very envious of people that doesn't need social media yeah indeed completely because they're free they're absolutely free and my dream is to get to that point is where I don't need that it's interesting that you're saying that because I was with a very good friend of mine in Brazil now and she's a big influencer in Brazil like five billion followers and she's been you know working on social for like over 10 years now and she said the same thing she's like I really am people that does not need social media and now she's working towards to find a path where she can be free how interesting that that people are now willing to live free without social because we all become dependent of social because social becomes our work because you need to go on social because you need to post your work you need to showcase your work because you know people will discover you on social yeah so if you don't have anything there how people will know who is late barbara what's your portfolio what you have been doing and it's the same for what we do and we get stuck but at the same time it's suffocated because it's a pressure that we always need to be there yeah and now i feel like more and more people are trying to think like how do i get out of here and do you think there's a way to get out of it?

24:01Oh yes I think there is What would be that? Do you know? We're like brainstorming me and my friend and like but how we get away from it? I think like you need to be successful enough that you can have a team that manages for you that's it. But your presence was still going to be there. It's not just you posting. It's yeah you have a meeting once a week you know maybe once a month it depends and where you schedule you know the things so and you have a team that deals with that you can approve it but you don't have to manage it you don't have to be there and and in the long term you know yeah like it just becomes about your work i think there is like i think that's the only way the only way that's the only way you know yeah and then it's up to you like i'm so happy when i'm not on social media like when i have really really busy day where i don't have the time to look at my phone you know so it's not just social media you feel super productive like oh my god i didn't go to social media today i'm very productive yeah it's amazing the feeling of like oh my god someone like did you see that on instagram i was like no guys today i didn't have the time to check and then you feel so good to give that answer because if you have time you're there checking right absolutely yeah it's uh it's interesting i can't wait are you more like a instagram person or definitely more than instagram person i have tiktok but i don't use it as much i have facebook but i don't use it um i'm really limiting myself to one because again i want to be free at the end of the day and i do not want to be restricted into having to control all of this platform you know because at the end of the day create serotonin like you get addicted to it you get addicted it's like a serotonin yes absolutely trends do you like we said that like you don't follow trends no but you have to know trends right so you needed to kind of how do you balance i don't follow the trends but i need to know what is the the trend the ticket starts or do you believe in trends let's like start from there like I can see trend because I can see everyone wearing the same thing you know so yes there is a trend you know so what people buys and sometimes they wear people things and you know yes um but in if going back into my fashion world I I've always been just extremely stylish just because I don't know it's just in my blood and I I have never really followed trend I remember what an example when Balenciaga did the the trainers with the three souls when those one first came out the first show I was like oh this is innovative and I was like I'm going to buy it because this is a revolution onto the way trainers are designed.

27:13And that's why I bought it. I didn't buy it because it eventually became a trend. I bought it because of the revolution. The revolution. Yeah. And, you know, when Alaya did, you know, the ballerina with the stud and, you know. Yes, that was a revolution. Yeah, that was a revolution. And now everyone is wearing it. I didn't purchase those ones, but I was like, those are beautiful and they're new, you know. So, like, I understand it, but I don't, I don't follow it I always buy things that I like you know and you know I think it was like fashion week 2024 that year I wore an outfit which was like a knitted handmade from Bolivian women a Chloe piece when Gabriela Hearst was designing completely full of colors and a pair of like jeans and my beautiful kazade which i adore like platform from the 70s they're not vintage but the stylists yeah and i got photographed and i literally was on all the magazines like from vogitalia vogue uk you know vogamerica bazaar glamour grazia name it the impressionist the New York Times style I was everywhere with that and you know and they were like that's the new trend so and that funny enough I was like I'm gonna be late to this show I just need to wear something and I was like I'm gonna wear that and that and I was literally less than two minutes thinking of my brain so you didn't plan a day before la da da da out and that outfit so simple but it became like have like a hit you know um so that became a trend you know well and direction this is funny like because you're saying 2020 right so 2020 yeah 24 social media was already there but magazine was still pretty still very strong you know piece of you know look of the fashion week which is now still but more on social and it gets viral even more quick before we would have to wait for the magazine to come in to say what people were wearing during the fashion week and then I would say that it became like boom viral social media really helps as well to actually get to amplify it and then like for example with this example this then proved to you that it's less about the trend but much more about who you are and how do you pursue yourself.

29:55Indeed, yeah. Because you are just putting, just like, okay, I'm going to wear and wear that. You didn't think about what people are wearing, how I'm going to make an impact on the streets. You just went for it with your instinct that you're saying that you're very much led by it and then it's become, boom. Yeah, that's it. Beautiful. Fashion Week is something that you're still very much involved with designers and show. What is your role within the Fashion Weeks now? So I've been working with Natal magazine as their fashion editor for a few years now, quite sometimes. And normally I go as their representative to all the shows.

30:34And also being a stylist and a style director, it's important to see the garment in Rio. Because when you then get booked to do a job, you know how they would fall with your client. you know so for me it's always important to go and I love to see innovation you know I love clothes I understand garments so well um but yeah that's still my involvement with the fashion world really leadership what leadership means to you leadership leadership ha so I guess to me leadership means what it is to me, what it means to be a leader. To me, a leader is someone that is almost selfless, but very smart, because it's not about you.

31:24It's about a bigger purpose. Therefore, you need to understand all the complexity of the journey to get that from point A to point B. And everyone needs to go with you there. So how do you do that? and sometimes you're like, oh, I don't want to do this because it's uncomfortable, but then you cannot think like that. So it's kind of selfless but very smart. You have to be a very good Czech player, I believe. Empathetic, certainly, because you need to understand your people, but it's also called when you have to confront with whoever you need to. Leadership also to me means to be loyal. you know, to your cause and, yeah, to the direction that you're going and to the people that you've promised things, you know, to get there.

32:21Yes, I guess for me those are what it means to be a leader or leadership in general, yeah. I love that. It's very profound because it's not easy to be a leader, right? So I love what you said about selfless, but it's smart and pathetic and how to get people with you through your purpose. Yeah. It's a lot of box to be taking in and it's not for everyone. I know. Absolutely. It's not for everyone. Do you see yourself as a good leader? Oh, Maria. I guess I could be, yes. I'm very humble. but yes I definitely see myself as a leader for sure there was a moment in 20 I think it was 2020 yes during lockdown when George Floyd happened and we all went to protest you know in the streets to London at some point I was leading the crowd that's beautiful to lead the crowd at that time I have no clue I was just leading you know I was saying things and chanting and people were just following me.

33:35And there is a picture of me that someone took and a friend of mine sent me and I literally look like Malcolm X. And it was like, yeah, it was like quite interesting, but it wasn't a very interesting feeling how everyone just started like, follow me. And I was like, oh, wow, that's, yeah. Do you get a lot of involvement in protest when it touches your heart? How do you get involved? It really, it really have to, you have to come to a point where I'm like, okay, now we need to go out. I try not to protect, go out too much because, you know, I'm a black woman at the end of the day, you know, and I need other people to raise their voice for me because I am in the way, in the historical, the victim.

34:31So, of course, I'm going to be out there. I'm going to be out there. Yeah. But I need other people to have my back, you know. Yeah. And so, you know, I always try to do this in a very smart way, unless I really feel like it's time, you know. But again, you know, evolution and, you know, and erasing racism or prejudice and all of that, when you are the target, it's a bit stupid for you to go and show yourself. because you need a community that looks different to you and has different background and upbringing that can vouch for your human rights. So it's very tricky for me just to go and protest.

35:15But if I'm in any room and there are conversations where I believe I disagree with them, then I question them for sure. I never have argument with people because having an argument is stupid. You don't get to any place. But I question them, you know, I challenge them. I challenge their state of war and their opinion. And I think that's really how you can truly shift things, you know. I am against any form of violence, whatever is physical, you know, mental, like, you know, vocal. I'm against any form of violence, you know. So I always try not to get to that state of rage because it's the worst.

36:01It's really, really, it's really the worst. But the world has proven that we're developing as human, as in the sense our technology is beyond. We have AI, artificial intelligence. But as human, for sake of being human, we are going back, backward. because we're killing each other. For what reason? For what reason? Because you believe that this land was given to you, really and truly. That if you believe in any religions, God doesn't want you to fight. God wants you to unify. And there is space for everyone in this world to live together peacefully, respectfully, pumped. But we're definitely going backwards.

36:51and I could not agree more with you. So we're killing each other for land. For land. For oil. Like back in the days. Back in the days, which is crazy, right? This is really, really crazy. But I'm still someone that has hope. Yeah. Because if we don't have hope, how are we going to be able to wake up every day thinking that we're going backwards? So I tried myself to continue to be a hopeful person that God is, he knows the way to take us out there and putting the humanity in the place that has to be because we cannot continue like that. Oh, no. I believe, I have hoped to, but I certainly walk in fate.

37:43Yes. Every single day. Yeah. Every single day. Because it's just like, it's how we can continue to smile and do our work, right? Because I think there's not much we can change ourselves for what's happening in the world. But we can change ourselves in how we are taking what happened around us and how this is changing us in a way that we can support others. Because what's happening is not our control. No. But we have the control of how we behave towards that. Absolutely, yeah. So I think it's kind of like that's what I'm taking day by day. It's just like this I cannot control and I'm not going to let this noise to affect me and my surround.

38:32So I'm going to continue to walk with faith. Yeah. Knowing that what I can do, I will do. And then what I cannot, God will do. Yes. I agree. So childhood, being a black woman, what has taught you? Oh, my God. Childhood, being a black woman, what's that taught me? Kindness. Kindness, for sure. Because, you know, I guess when you have a piece of racism against you, you could also be upset about it, right? and you know a lot of the time the conversation between black and white is reparation you know and but as Nelson Mandela said like you know we we need to live peacefully all together and love each other so kindness definitely a lot of kindness um you know and also you know when Jesus was on the cross and he was dying and said, God forgive them because they don't know what they're doing.

39:43That's beautiful. Yeah. And I think that in a smaller way, when you receive an act of violence, you have two ways of deciding how to defend yourself, which is to be aggressive, to be kind. And so it's always better to kill them with kindness. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And forgive. Yeah. and forgive I think it's just like cause like as you said Jesus said on the cross forgive them that they don't know what they're doing it's just like it's how to be kind but how to have the ability to forgive which I think is the most amazing feature that someone can truly have yes because forgiving fully it's not easy because I believe when someone you can't forget You can forget.

40:35If it's like rubbish, you're like whatever. But if someone has hurt you, then I guess it plays disappointment. And once you're disappointed, can you truly forgive? Can you truly go back into loving in the same way? You know, like, I guess, I don't know. Like, for me, I can forgive. I can forgive, but then there is never again chances. to be in my life you know i'm the same i'm the same i i like to forgive because i don't want to live with that feeling and that you know disappointment frustration within me and i can forgive fully at a point that i forget what happened yeah but i i never gonna welcome back to my life or to anything.

41:31So I have that. Because the forgiveness is very difficult, but it's something that is on the Bible and we need to do it as hard as it can be. And when you do it, it feels so peaceful and then you forget. And then it's just like, it's a door shut closed and then you raise and everything. It's fine. My love, you're just like, I can feel your soul. I can feel your energy and I can feel your kindness. what an amazing conversation thank you so much for being here with me this morning such an inspirational I am here sitting as a student today you are definitely my teacher I've learned a lot from you and just to listen to you it brings me a lot of calm thank you thank you so much for having me this has been amazing I would definitely say it's my favorite podcast interview that I had so far.

42:27Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thank you so much to everyone that has been listening to us today. I hope you just, you know, found this conversation as inspiring and have learned as much as I have learned today with this incredible late Barbara. So if you're not following the Beyond Marketing podcast, make sure you do on Spotify, YouTube, Amazon and Apple Play. And I'm looking forward to see you guys on our next episode. And thank you so much again, my love.

42:56you