What AI Can't Replace - How The Atlantic Deals with Disruption

26:57So that's true of relationships, particularly with young people who won't have been introduced to this technology, but also with other people. I have dinner with my wife. We're disconnected from our phones. She's got to make a big job decision. I can ask the AI, help me think through this job decision that she's making. But really, you want to be able to do that disattached. So it's human interactions, it's emotional interactions, but it's also just thinking creatively. You know, if I think about the best, I ask AI all the time. In fact, I had deep research just the other day. I figured, let's see, I haven't used up my 10 credits for March.

27:32Let's have it like think through the grand strategy of the Atlantic, right? So here are the various problems, like sort through what we should launch next. And so I do use it even for, it didn't give me anything, I didn't know. unfortunately or maybe fortunately. Unfortunately, the sense that it didn't give me any new ideas, fortunately, it suggests that I won't be fired immediately. So I do use AI for even those hardest tasks, but I also think that the more knowledge I have disconnected about the grand strategy Atlantic, the better choices I'll make even if I'm relying on AI. I love the comment you made about ability.

28:11thinking about, for example, engaging with a child as an ability that has to be cultivated. And I think, you know, devices have already somewhat intruded, right? I happen to see if I'm out to dinner, the number of one children that are on devices, but then I look at their parents, they're on devices too. I think it's an ability that's not being cultivated, just set aside AI just because of our device obsession now. But I think framing it as an ability is so important because it's if you frame it as an ability worth cultivating then I can put it on my radar as something to attend to I think right now the sad truth is it's not even being attended to which is by why it's being neglected yeah I think there's there's two elements of that which kind of one thing is I had the same thing I've been skiing a lot this season and I was skiing with my five-year-old and I was realizing that I was kind of thinking about as I was skiing with him what I was doing next and then obviously got immense guilt because I was skiing with my five-year-old what can be any better, right?

29:09Nothing could be better. But I also then realized that I have it. We praise Jeremy's bench press. Getting your kids skiing at five is good. It is full French fries. But what I was realizing was that I've trained my whole life being there concentrated when I sit and do work. Like I'm pretty much in full flow when I sit and have this conversation and when I do emailing because I've done it for a long time. I'm very trained in doing it. You know, obviously skiing with a five-year-old, I haven't done my whole life. And so they have four. way. And so, but I think, and then that was just kind of like a way for me to think about it as kind of reshifting my ability to be good at different kind of like things in life.

29:44I was good, I'm good at work, but now I also would like to be very good at being present while skiing with my five-year-old. But I think what we're also saying here is that not only will that in itself become important because that will keep us human, but I think the really big reason why listeners around this podcast should be interested is that it might even be make us better of using AI right and to you I think it's such an important point like if you can if you can mentally and as a human do stuff that is uniquely human originality and all these different things you can probably even get much more out of AI that way and so it's a little bit of the the vax on vax off version yeah of becoming good of AI I think that's I think that's very very well stated I it reminds me of one of my favorite comments on this podcast ever, Nicholas, we had a woman, an advertising executive named Jenny Nicholson on the show.

30:34And one of the things she talked about was bringing your humanity to the model, because it's really the only thing that's not already in there. And so if you aren't foregrounding your humanity, then you're not getting any differential output from a model because you can get what anybody else can get. And that speaks to Henrik, I love the wax on wax off. There actually has to be, or as Nicholas, as you put it, an unwired capacity that's being developed to get differential output from a model, period. And I think unwired capacities are, I don't know that we've talked about it in such terms before.

31:08I love that. I wanted to ask you about deep research, the grand strategy of Atlantic, not because I want to know about that per se, but because it reminds me of, we've talked a lot about you as a runner, as a content creator, as a futurist, right? We haven't really touched on you as a leader of an organization. Can you talk for a little bit about how has AI affected your ability to lead, practices to lead, et cetera? Yeah, that's very hard. So there are a whole bunch of different dimensions for it. I can go deep in any one of them, but the first is trying to set the strategy, right? So AI was trained on the kind of data that we produce, in fact, specifically on the data that we produce, and is creating competitors to what we produce.

31:57And so navigating a future in which there are AI-based competitors, and not only that, navigating a future in which the primary way people find our content, which is through Google search, will gradually go away. Because Google will just answer the questions instead of directing to the Atlantic, right? So that's part of it. And so I have to figure out our strategy for that. Then there's the strategy on how we relate with these companies, right? And so these companies are great allies and that they've built tools that are extremely useful to us, but they also, you know, stole our copyrighted content and did not pay it for us.

32:31And there's a little bit of an adversarial relationship there, but also potentially beneficial relationship. So I negotiate that. There's the question of how we use AI inside the Atlantic, right? I use it obviously all the time to make my videos better, to think about the grand strategy Atlantic. I am trying to get my staff. I tell them very specifically, never use it for writing. Don't use it for writing because it's unethical, because we might lose copyright and because it's bad. But, you know, beyond that, like you should be trying and you should be using it for all kinds of different things.

33:03And again, I should note, I don't oversee the editorial side of Atlantic. I just run the business. But, you know, figuring out how we can use AI in our Facebook marketing is really important. That is one of the main drivers of our growth, which has been massive, right? You know, we switched over to, you know, writing certain things with AI was extremely helpful. So figuring out how to get it to flow through the organization, that's really important. And then the other thing, you know, as anybody who reads The Atlantic knows, the staff has been quite critical of the AI industry and, in fact, of the deals that we've struck, right?

33:35There's a story about me in the Atlantic called Deal with the Devil, right? Or Bargain with the Devil or something like that, right? So there is a back and forth between internally as well that is complicated to manage. So those are all amazing vectors to work with. And, you know, it's been stressful at times. It's been exciting at times. Whatever it is, it's working because the Atlantic is, you know, firing on all cylinders and bringing in subscriptions at a faster rate than we've ever had. You know, advertising is through the roof. Like it's going well or all the factors combined are going well, but it is not a simple issue.

34:14No kidding. Has it been difficult to convince an organization to use AI when you work in an industry that, you know, probably more than many others have been kind of affected by AI already. So to your point, there's this kind of like very polarizing kind of like relationship. 100%. It's very interesting because, you know, the closer you are to the AI training, the sooner you'll be disrupted, right? Coders are getting disrupted very quickly. Journalism, media getting disrupted. And that's scary. But if it scares you so much, you kind of put up your hands and say, go away, AI, then the disruption happens faster, right?

34:59If you fight AI, AI, you know, will make your job worse sooner. And, you know, I talk about it a little bit like one of the metaphors I used in an all hands when I was going back and forth on this issue is like, look, there is a storm coming, right? And the storm is AI and it's going to massively change the way people do journalism. And I can say, I don't like the storm and I can go stand out there naked and I can yell at it, right? Or I can put on a raincoat, I can get an umbrella and I can try to figure out the path of the storm and how best to protect what I do, right? And that's what we're trying to do, which is let's figure out the AI companies that we can work with.

35:39Let's figure out the companies with whom we can make licensing decks. Let's understand their economics. Okay, they're cash poor but equity rich. Let's understand how that changes the dynamic. Let's think about what the actual value of our content is to them. Let's think about how that's going to change as we move into a world of synthetic data. if you understand how AI works, how it was built, where it is going, if you understand that better today than you did yesterday, you have a better chance of making the right choices for your company. And that is a conversation that I am having continually, you know, both of the media companies and with my own staff, because there is so much fear and so much anger.

36:22And the anger is justified, right? These companies came, they scraped our sites, they ignored our terms of service. They ignored our robots.txt. There have been lawsuits that have been filed, but those are going to take forever, at which point they will no longer have a need for our training data. And so there's this original sin that all these models are built on. And in fact, right now, they're all asking the Trump administration to be given sort of a permanent get out of jail free card on this issue. So there's this original sin that makes this industry quite angry. And the anger is justified.

36:55But if that anger then leads you to make stupid decisions, you know, I got angry, so I shot myself in the foot. That's not a great choice. So you say you're talking about this all the time with other media companies, with your own staff. Can you talk for a minute about as a leader, what are the forums or mechanisms where you're talking with your own staff? How are you talking about it? You know, and just to give you one example, we had Brad Anderson, who's one of the presidents of Qualtrics. He worked for Satya for a bunch of years, top 20 leader at Microsoft for like eight years. He's now at Paltricks.

37:27And he told us a story about how in every all hands meeting, he takes five minutes and he shares his screen and he shows people what he's using AI for. That's to me, that's one of, that's a kind of a hallmark leadership behavior of not telling people to do something, but showing them what you're doing. Can you talk about what are the mechanisms? How are you leading your staff to explore? Yeah, that's a, I might take that actually. I, you know, I do these monthly all hands and I, talk about it and I talk in general about how I use AI and what I use it for and what I don't. But I haven't done the share the screen method.

37:59I have often, you know, I'll walk to people's desks. I spend a lot of time trying to walk around the office and, you know, why don't we try, like, let's upload this proposal and let's see, like, what the AI says about this proposal and how to make it better. You know, we've built a little, very small team that is trying to build AI products that makes people's jobs faster. We had a three-hour training session with OpenAI on how to build custom GPTs just this week, which was wonderful. So there are a few forums, right? There's the All Hands Forum. There's a Slack channel where we're uploading and discussing tools.

38:30And then there are also some particular complexities where, you know, we are set up in such a way that the editorial side, like I have no idea what The Atlantic is going to publish today. Not one idea. I don't have a single clue, right? We are set up with total separation and for good reason, because if the folks managing the money had any influence whatsoever on the people writing the stories, then you would write different stories and they wouldn't be as pure. And so we have a total church state divide. So I can say all I want, but half the staff should not listen to me. I mean, they can listen to me, but they certainly, they don't report to me.

39:06What's an example of a tool that you guys are thinking about that would make work easier? Well, you know, so for, maybe I'll talk about my own journalism use. So one of the things, you know, I was a journalist for most of my life. I was editor of Wire before coming to Sea of the Atlantic. So I was on the other side of the house. And so I care a lot about it and I spent a lot of time doing it. When I moved into the CEO role, I kept writing because I was writing a book. I was writing a book about my life running. General hypothesis is that you look really close to it running. You can understand some of the hardest things in life.

39:38And the book is now done. Almost done. It'll be out in our code word. And I used AI in a bunch of ways that were very helpful. One of the things I would do is I would, their characters I interviewed, and I interviewed them over the course of four years. So there are lots of notes in their files. And I would upload the transcripts of all those conversations. And I would have the AI look at the transcripts and have the AI look at what I'd written about the character. And I would say, is everything that I've written accurate based on what's in these transcripts? And are there any quotes in the transcripts that are better than the ones that I've selected?

40:09Or is there anything that I've left out? And it's extremely good at that. I use it for identifying. I was having a conversation about alcoholism and running. And I was thinking, yeah, where do I put this in the book? I could go in this chapter about this guy who's dealing with drug addiction. I could go in the 1970s where my father starts to run and becomes alcoholic. He could come in the 80s where he's really struggling. I said, where should I put it? And so I write a few sentences about alcoholism and running. I say, hey, where in the manuscript should this go? And it gave me a bunch of very good suggestions.

40:39because it can read it instantly. If I had sent it to my editor, my editor would probably have had a better suggestion, but it would have taken four hours, whereas you can get AI to do it instantaneously. And so there are all these use cases that are really useful even for kind of serious journalism and writing. Those aren't things that, they're just practices that I think journalists and writers need. I might give you an extra one because I have a book coming out August 5th about called me, my customer, and I about AI and entrepreneurship. And a little tool that I just kind of like came up with was I'm just getting all the endorsement blurbs kind of getting done.

41:18And obviously people are, you know, obviously want to read the book, but then sometimes, you know, it's tough to write an endorsement. So I now have like a custom GPT that have read the book and then I then feed them in the LinkedIn profile of whoever I'm asking for endorsement. And then I say like basically try to come up with endorsement, make three different versions, make something that's kind of angered in what this person is an expert in, and then also like outline like something specifically in the book. And it's quite remarkable what it comes up with. Obviously, it makes it much easier.

41:50That's amazing. That's like, yeah, the book endorsement of all the parts of our industry that are going to get blown up. I think that's a... So, Nick, here's a question. Going back to something you said about The Atlantic earlier and then this example with your book, which I love. What is writing? And I ask that specifically because you said it's unethical to use it in writing, but then you just gave, and I know that there's an answer here, but just help resolve this tension because you also said, I used to see where should this quote go? Did I pick the best reference, right? To me, those sound a lot like writing.

42:23How do you define writing when you say don't use it for writing? And then how do you define, how do you describe what you're doing where you say it's actually really good at doing this part? Aha, very astute observations. So an AI purist, and there are many smart people in my field who would say, look, writing is thinking. And if you use AI at any part in the process, you are corrupting your learning. It's unethical and it's a form of cognitive offloading. Therefore, you should remove AI from the entire process. And that is a very pure approach. at the other end of the spectrum would be, you know, what we've seen at CNET, what we've seen at Sports Illustrated, where it's like, let's just have AI completely create this and, you know, and let's put a fake byline on it.

43:02And so it is true that my position is somewhere in the middle. And the line that I draw is there's not one word in the book that will have been written by AI or even suggested by AI. I don't ask it for synonyms. You know, I never say, rewrite this sentence or give me another suggestion on the sentence. You know, so you could draw the line at a bunch of different places. You could, for example, say, well, maybe it should never write like a paragraph, right? You could maybe say you should never talk to it about anything. I happen to just draw the line at no words came out of the AI. Zero, right?

43:39Not one, zero. And why draw the line there? A, it's clear, right? And it's a good place to draw a line. And B, there's the additional advantage of the question about copyright. Like it is unclear where the legal lines will be drawn over who owns the right to a work if an AI helps to write it. So if I say, hey, you know, GPT-7, like write a book about running, include profiles of these characters, right? Turns out a book and I publish it. Who owns the right to it? Do I own it? Does OpenAI own the rights to it, right? Does Microsoft own the right to it? Does Chrome browser, right? Right. And, you know, we don't know the answer to that question.

44:18It hasn't been determined by the courts. And so there's this additional advantage that the line that I think is sensible also kind of lines up with legal risk aversion. Yeah. It will be interesting if, you know, my argument will be weakened if the courts decide this and you no longer have a copyright position. I also think back to your point about context window, I mean, like I wrote a book about entrepreneurship and AI and that was based on a lot of internal white papers that we'd written over the last few years. And honestly, I would have almost preferred AI to write it. And we just, you just couldn't get it to kind of like create a consistent narrative.

44:55and to your point about uh you know writing is thinking obviously at the time you then sit down and kind of like go through all this different stuff then all these kind of original ideas going to materialize and so i also just think like practically like of course it can write a book because it could spew that endless amount of just copy there are tons of there are tons of examples nick even on our show for example we had stephen johnson who's the you know one of my favorite writers who built notebook lm right he talked about how he's using notebook lm for his next book project. We talked to, I mean, Kevin Kelly, you know, Wired founder who talked a little bit about that more about image and now song.

45:31He's really into that area. Uh, but Guy Kawasaki, I love this example. If you want like a fun example, he talked about, he needed an illustration. He needed a real story to illustrate a point about, you know, say career transitions, I think. And he said, he asked AI, Hey, what are some radical career transitions? And it helped him realize Julia Child had actually, before she got into French cooking, she had been a spy And she had been on assignment in France and fell in love with French cooking. He said, it's serviced an example that I never would have. Otherwise, he's like, I'm thinking of Bezos.

46:03I didn't really want to include Bezos in that part of my book. I think about Ethan Mollick, who wrote a great book, Co-Intelligence, about AI. He talked about how he'd get stuck in a paragraph and he'd say, hey, what are 10 ways I could take this paragraph? So to me, it seems there's an enormous spectrum. And that's why I wanted to get your thoughts on what is writing. because I think somebody could hear the statement earlier in the show, don't use it for writing, and they just write off all of these kinds of thought processes just kind of unthinkingly. And so I wanted to dig into that more. Yeah, I'll say, okay, so great.

46:38I'll also add that I do think that there is a, I haven't explored this in part because I worked for a conservative, you know, my publication was founded in 1857 by people trying to like stave off the Civil War. Like I, by nature, have to be conservative, right? You don't want to be anywhere. Like you kind of think of like, okay, Harry Beecher, Stowe, Ralph Walden, or St. Henry David Thoreau are like looking over your shoulder. You want to be pretty cautious when you work at the Atlantic, right? I do think that there is a future state, right? And it's more for somebody like Kevin Kelly or a publication like Wired to use AI, not just for writing, but to generate new forms of storytelling, right?

47:13So Steven Johnson did this with this wonderful thing he put out a couple months ago, where we had a story where the AI is like guiding you through it. It's like a choose your own adventure story. Then I once had a startup called The Atavist where one of the initial models was we'll build a CMS or multimedia storytelling, including potentially choose your own adventure books. And AI can do that in a way that traditional writing can't. So I do think that there are, I'm very conservative in the way I write my book about running. I wrote a book for my kids. I guess my 14 year old and I wrote it for the 10 year old on his birthday.

47:47Trinted it out. and it was about these stories I told them about the animal world cup where different animals play against each other in soccer. Right. And it's, you know, instead of like Germany versus the Netherlands, it's like the slugs versus the raccoons. Right. And we wrote the national anthems using AI and we illustrated it using Vali. Um, like I don't care on that. Right. Um, that's like the perfect use case for AI. And so, um, it's, you know, I just have different modes, right? And in some ways, if I was an independent writer, had a sub stack, or I was at Wired, or I was at some different publication, I may say, like, use AI to, like, experiment.

48:27You'd be aware of the hallucinations, be aware of the copyright issues, be aware of the fact that a lot of the prose it spits out is generic and cliched, because it's been trained on generic prose. And, you know, go and do other things. It's not right, though, for The Atlantic. Yeah. No, but you also, one thing that you're bringing to my mind is the importance of playing. You know, you talk about making the Animal World Cup illustrations. I think right now, a lot of folks who maybe are unfamiliar or were just kind of dipping their toes, AI is kind of a productivity tool. Therefore, it fits in the productivity suite.

49:01It's next to PowerPoint and Excel, and it triggers kind of very particular associations. and then there's this whole other world or sandbox around, you know, kids' story time. I think if folks aren't playing in their personal lives, their imaginations aren't going to be sufficiently, kind of call it loaded to even know what's interesting at work. That's so interesting, right? And it gets back to cognitive offloading, right? Like imagination and skills and letting your mind wander, right? I think Steven Johnson said this in the podcast with you. He said that if we talk about the importance of, I can't remember exactly what he said, but you would remember since you were interviewing him.

49:36I was just listening. But he was saying that like one of the reasons why it's important to go for a walk, he said in order to reach an interesting idea, you kind of have to hop through six different things. You can't get to the interesting idea immediately. And so you need to like be detached and let your mind be wandering. And so AI can like cut you off because it can like get you tethered to your screen or can get you so reliant that you don't trust your imagination anymore. Or you can use it to help infuse your imagination and inspire it. the last question for me which probably is uh with your futurist hat on we talk a lot about writing for people but obviously you're alluding to seo kind of increasingly people might come through whatever agent they're asking for something and then that will point to you but when will it just be my agent that will read your stuff and then tell me in the kind of like the tone and the way that i would like to have it told i mean in a way that happens now right if you go into Grok and you're like, hey, tell me what happened today, right?

50:35It's, you know, it's reading Atlantic stories and telling you that. So, and you're asking Grok your specific way. If you go into perplexity or, you know, you go into lots of sites, they are, they're doing that. I mean, you can even remove the written word and you can go into Amazon Alexa, right? Or you can just say to your Alexa bot, right? Hey, tell me what happened today. And it will be responding with data that it's, you know, fortunately licensed from a whole series of publishers. So I don't think we're that far away. And you can see also there are all kinds of apps out there, right? The first one was Artifact, right?

51:13Wonderful app created by Kevin's sister and Mike Krieger, where it would summarize the stories, right? And so in a way, that's like your agent, because you're choosing what kind of summarization you want, what length, right? So you have an agent that it used to just be our relationship with you is direct. There's our text that we write and there's you as a reader. Now there's tech companies in the middle, there are agents in the middle, there's Particle with other things now. Particle does this as well. And so we have to, part of my, with my CEO hat on, not as my dad Animal World Cup hat on, I have to figure out how to make sure that our business can survive in that world, which is not an easy challenge.

51:51You know, one thing, Nick, just maybe last memory or just statement if there's something that's interesting. I'll say last question. When you and I ran into each other downtown Palo Alto, you're walking around and I accosted you in the street. I realized we had met at a previous conference, but you said, hey, anything interesting? I should talk about my video today. And I thought that was a, to me, it reminded me of, you know, when I'm in book writing mode, as they say, as a writer, everything's grist for the mill. is that your kind of call it receptors open mode when you think about your daily video are you kind of always thinking about that and because to me it was like uh you know like i don't understand biology at all but like antioxidants will grab an acai berry or whatever or vice versa um is that your kind of primary receptor mode is you're looking for stuff you want to be talking about because it was it was striking to me that that was the first thing that came up in conversation it's probably not the first i think the question i'm asking the most is what do you think of the atlantic right because my goal is to manage our brand perception and like you want to get an early indicator on oh i love the atlantic but you know i i can't get it to renew properly right or the app the font is too small right and so you're trying to constantly get feedback on that i used to i used to drive my sisters crazy they would just get so annoyed by it i used to when i was back on the other side of the house.

53:17Like, I'd approach every cocktail party as well. Let's, like, somewhere in this room, there is an amazing New Yorker story, right? Like, I'm going to find it before the night ends. And they're like, why are you asking our friends these questions? I'm like, it's just how I am. And, you know, to some degree, the most interesting thing in tech is part of that. In some degree, it's, you know, the more general quest to understand AI, which I think underlies so many of the most important choices I'll have to make in the next few years. Um, and then to, you know, to the biggest degree, but yes, I do have that receptor motor.

53:50I am always asking questions like that. And it was fun to bump into you. That was early in the morning too. It's like seven 30 in the morning. We were walking down Emerson street. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Good memory. Good memory. Uh, I think Victor Hugo's son said, everything ends up in print. Yeah. Right. Or I mean, Steve Martin said that, look, everything in your life will eventually end up in your act. Right. And so once you recognize that you realize that, you know, no matter what you're doing, you could be finding an idea that's valuable to whatever it is you're working on. That's incredible. Well said.

54:22Well said. Perfect note from a creativity perspective to end on for sure. I mean, that was a pretty wide ranging conversation, wasn't it? It was really was. It really was. I think for someone who is one who's as steeped in futurism and current technology trends as he is, It's super fun to not only talk to him as a creator, but also as a runner, as a father, as a leader and executive. I'm sure in that episode, I feel like there's something for everybody. And our job is to make it practical, pragmatic, and to leave folks with some simple takeaways that they can apply into their life. What are you, maybe let's start this way, Henrik.

55:00What are you taking into your life from this conversation? You know what? I think I'm taking a pretty profound lesson with me, which is how do I practice skills and traits of humanity that I have? How do I train them? I mean, like I was thinking when we were talking, when somebody has a tough time getting a romantic partner, then sometimes the trick is not to kind of become better at finding a partner is to kind of upgrade themselves, right? You know, go to the gym or go to the studio. There's also, oh, go to the dance studio. Like, just become a more interesting person. In the same way I heard once when, you know, the founder of Virgin said, Richard Branson said, I was asked famously, if you had only one piece of advice to an entrepreneur, what would that be?

55:49And he answered, go to the gym. And so for a podcast that is all about how to become better of applying AI to your business and to yourself, I think it's actually like such an interesting, very, very true, but also kind of a counterintuitive kind of thing of like, one of the things that we have to remember to keep training is our ability to see when the model is hallucinating. Like that is not an AI skill. That's a human skill. To be better of being very unpredictable in the way that we ask the model, right? Because originality in gets really out. And then I think as somebody who is, who are kind of leaders in their AI fields, and I would imagine that most people who listen to this are kind of like considerate AI thought leaders, or at least like, you know, knowledgeable about it.

56:41But we have an interesting responsibility in making sure that we don't become so lazy that we suddenly lose the ability to use AI in an effective way, to effectively, as you were kind of pointing it out, we need to be able to bench press 225 pounds in order to bench press 1 ,000 with AI. but if we become so lazy that we can't bench press more than 20 pounds you know then we're also not taking advantage of this technology and so i think this idea of practicing the human side of yourself either because it's good for you as a human but also because it'll make it better for you to become a super user of ai is just such a fascinating point yeah unwired intelligence and cultivating our organic selves, I thought was very cool.

57:35I love, you know, the thought of cultivating abilities, like talking to a child, like holding a meaningful conversation with a romantic partner without intervention, you know, of technology. I think that it sounds Luddite, but, you know, spoken from someone who's at the bleeding edge, I think it causes those of us who have been dismissive of, call it mere human capabilities, you know, it brings a healthy skepticism to say, am I attending to all the aspects of my life? As much as I should be able to bring various models to bear on improving my running, you know, regiment as Nicholas is, that able, I should be able to leave devices behind and be fully present with my family and recognizing that if I can't do the latter, I probably won't be very good at the former.

58:23To me, that's a really cool kind of interplay and interdependence that I don't think we've teased out as much, maybe a little bit in our conversation with Jenny about bringing humanity to the model. But I thought that was really special. I agree. You know, also just like as a personal observation, like he's so good of completing full sentences. You know, like just, you know, you ask him a question, he comes up with this very powerful, very impressive kind of answer. And it's like compact. And then he stops. Yes. Yes. it's i think that's probably a function of his daily practice of recording these videos yeah you know because you've got to have a clear open you know mid-section mid-game so to speak and end and he's cultivated that ability i mean if for for folks who don't follow him he's got two million followers on linkedin it's follow him and every day there's a very short video it's very thought provoking but as henrik's saying it's a complete thought and there's a clear end you like that you and i are just begging to kind of continue you know the other thing that i thought was really fascinating is uh his comments the closer your organization is to the training data the sooner you're going to be disrupted and i love this quote fighting ai is just going to make your job worse sooner don't fight it instead embrace it find ways to incorporate it and as he said you know get the rain slicker get the umbrella and try to figure out where the storm's going rather than standing naked screaming at the wind i think that was it for this time thank you for everybody listening and thanks for people who are writing in and putting comments on linkedin and youtube and on the various podcasting platform obviously to everybody who subscribed it means a lot to us hey whoa whoa whoa Henrik one thing we got to do is we've got to have a code word people are getting into the code words I don't know if you're noticing this hmm what's the code word for this one oh oh uh unwired rain slicker I wouldn't be able to spell to that but there you go well now now we'll see what you okay so if you got to the end of this episode drop us a comment on social unwired rain slicker we'll know that you got here thanks for listening as always see you next time