China Open-Source, Compute Arms Race, Reordering Global Trade | BG2 w/ Bill Gurley and Brad Gerstner

28:10Maybe just reflect, you're in the middle of all this, you're building out your own inference clouds around the world. Is this a lot of hyperbole and chest pounding or do you actually see the dollars going into the ground in places like Saudi Arabia and around the US? Yeah, I'm going to just quantify it with Google for a second. So, you know, in the, in the, in the Mary Meeker bond deck, you know, they have a slide there that shows Google went from 5 trillion tokens a month to 480 trillion tokens a month. And they had just put some press out that they crossed like, you know, 800 trillion. And I saw something today that crossed a quadrillion.

28:50And I had to look that up. That's a thousand trillion. And so in a course of a year and a few months, they've gone from 5 trillion to a thousand trillion. So that's 200x right there. I mean, that just shows it to you without having to look at anything else. Every single search query on the planet today is now an inference transaction. Correct. And so, you know, and you see it, you know, an entropic with, you know, their continued fundraisers going, you know, through the roof. That's happening because they're seeing the amount of token consumption. And so anywhere we lay infrastructure, we fire up a rack.

29:31It becomes fully consumed within a few hours. You're talking rock. It was a huge demand. Fire out stripping supply, even at Grock. We do. So Bill, you see these fundraising announcements that are being discussed. Just CMBCs reporting tonight. I think that iconic is going to lead a $5 billion round into an entropic at 170 billion. In the case of anthropic, it's, you know, $170 billion on rumored $5 billion in revenue. X has been rumored to be raising at $150 to $200 billion. So, you know, you've never, in the history of venture, you've never seen fundraisers like this. One of the topics that is being hotly debated on the Twitter is that there's massive intervening deletion in these rounds, Bill, because of the employee option grants or the employee RSUs that are needing to be granted to keep the employees, you know, in these businesses.

30:34So just observing this a little bit from a far, I don't think you guys, you're a direct investor in any of these major labs. What do you see? What do you observe? What are your warning signs, you know, about the size and the demand that you see in these rounds? Well, I've never seen anything like it. I mean, I saw, you know, through the Uber and Lyft situation, I saw a precursor to this, but these dollars are even bigger. And the amount of money that these companies are willing to lose in a year, you know, I still think it's particularly interesting that Google has to compete with OpenAI because OpenAI is going to lose $7 billion a year and Google won't.

31:16Like they would never allow themselves to do that. And this started back in that previous era where for the first time ever, you saw private companies have a competitive advantage in that they can be more risk -seeking with capital than the public companies are allowed to be. But I think in the past 12 months, we've seen OpenAI, Meta, and certainly X, you know, move into this place. I call them the cost is no object, the Ceno group, where they're just putting out press leases, press leases, and opening data center after data center.

32:01And, choosing not to extend their CapEx budget, you look at that Amazon example when we spoke to the the Levant brothers at Cotou, where they're not keeping up with the Nvidia purchases relative to their AWS share. And so there are a few companies that are back on their feet and there's a few companies that are really pushing the gas pedal. And I can't, there's a few in the middle, I can't tell whether Anthropic has the audacity and the means to raise enough money to start building data centers themselves they haven't so far. But it's a sport of kings, you know, it's a sport of kings. Like there's never been this amount of money spent right now in video and others building in the stack like like Dell that we spoke to a few weeks ago, like they're the winners in a pick and trouble game that's got this amount of aggressiveness.

33:01It's a maybe maybe SK Heinix too, I don't know. It's sunny sunny. Do you see, you know, going back to the well -worn cliche that every glut or that every shortage ultimately ends in a glut. Do you have any evidence on the horizon where you see supply out stripping demand? No, I mean, I was going to ask this to Bill, as he was just saying, Bill, like on a daily basis, are you consuming more tokens or are you consuming more, you know, just traditional, you know, web lookups, right? And I'd be willing to guess you're consuming more tokens. Oh, it's insane. And and tokens are increasing. Like when you're using those reasoning models, you don't see all the tokens, right?

33:50They don't publish it, but they're, you know, this is where totally, yeah, 10 to 100 X more than you're very first day eye search. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. The one thing, the one thing I will, so you're right, I'm doing, go ahead, you finish. No, no, no, no, no, no, and I just wanted to say, even yesterday and then I got to put this, you know, press release plus, you know, product change up saying, hey, we got a throttle, everybody, right? And this is like, because we have all these people using way too much of our services. So I think, you know, if you have intelligent models, right?

34:26And you have the capacity for it. It's one of those things people are consuming, Givens, paradox or whatever, yeah, sorry, go ahead, Bill, you're just going to offer one caveat to this super exciting line of thought, which is because of the amount of venture capital out there, companies are not pricing to cost. Like no one, no one, none of the model companies, I don't think anyone even in the verticals, like no one's pricing to cost because they're pricing to take market share. And, you know, you and I, Sonny, we had a previous discussion about the unlimited pricing and inference has variable costs.

35:07So is that even sustainable, right? And even when people say to me, oh, we're going to run out of power, you wouldn't run out of power if you just took the price up. Like, like the thing that throttle's demand is price, but no one here is raising price. Like Anthropic doesn't need to throttle. They just raise price, but they're not willing to do that because they're afraid to lose share. And so everyone's pricing to share, that means they're pricing under cost. There's rumors of even some of the best known brands in AI having negative growth margin. And so I don't know when that settles out, but that that will create a bump in the supply demand curve if that ever has to be fixed.

35:50But for now, because because. Can I ask a question there? Yeah. Yeah. No, no, which is going back to the point that we made an open source. But if you know in the back of your mind that there's something that's 90 % is good, but it's 90 % cheaper, how does that factor? Because we've also never had that factor as we're going through this growth curve. I mean, since almost since we started the pod, I've routinely highlighted the steepness of that price curve on, you know, as it kind of becomes less cutting edge is something I've never seen before. I've never ever seen it. And I'm sure that a lot of people sit around and say, well, it's okay if I'm losing money here because, you know, six months from now, I'll just use the older model.

36:42And we also talked in the past about how in the internet age, all the startups began with Oracle and Sun. And eventually they all moved to Linux and mySQL. And so there was a, there was a, we got to win at all cost phase. And then there was a phase where you started worrying about cost and optimization. And so one day, one day will likely, you know, make that, make that move. And, and I, a few of the companies I've talked to that are running inference at scale, they are already starting to think that way. Like they're looking, right. They're looking at it, you know, from that, from that lens. But I, but it was, and I think that's why Grock and Cerebrus are doing so well.

37:25But Sunny, give us, give us an example. I would imagine that the wind surfs of the world and the cursors of the world and all these folks who are building these, you know, these coding agents, they've got massive, you know, demand for their applications, right. But they're paying through the nose to anthropic or to these underlying proprietary model providers to be able to do that. So what's the dynamic that you see there? Do you see them running to implement Klen or some of these cheaper models? Yeah, without kind of getting in this specific, any one of them. But like, you know, multiple folks are building their own models, based off open source.

38:07And right. So they could just go distill any one of these models. Right. And, you know, given that they're these very lenient Apache licenses and eliminate the entire cost of Sonnet that sits under it for 70 % of use cases. Yeah. And like Bill said, turn that into a premium offering, right. Say that's the, you know, the gold and, you know, the silver and the bonds are built off, you know, something that's like I said, one tenth the price. That seems to me, Bill, you know, if I had to forecast, you know, if I'm opening eye, I'm running a consumer business with really high gross margins, right. Because consumers are less sensitive to what they're paying their their their their their intensity of use is lower.

38:58Whereas when if somebody's writing code, you know, there's the variable intensity is high. And so, you know, for them, it would make sense to launch an open source model back to where we started the pod and price it really low to, you know, drive share knowing, you know, reminds me a little bit of Amazon back in the day. Amazon had this monopoly retail business. They could use to subsidize AWS, gain share for a decade and then begin to take price. That would be a rational strategy for open AI to follow. So, you take the profitable consumer business, you use it to subsidize, you know, the the market sharing other applications that you hope to build.

39:42That is certainly a reasonable strategy. I, I, I, I'm not inside that company. You have way more knowledge than I do, but, um, you know, I pay the $200 a month and I do every one of my searches on four five. And I'm probably probably negative. I would think. And so I do think there'll be some rationalization where these models, um, kind of self -pick, which one they're running based on what you need. I probably don't need to be using. And move to more of a consumption logic. Yeah. Move more to more of a consumption logic. There are already, uh, they're already doing that in, in parts of their enterprise business.

40:20Um, and, and, you know, as they've transitioned to more of this consumption logic, I think it's led to some real unlocks, uh, you know, you know, for the business. I think that makes it harder if you're in the, the lab game and you don't have a consumer product and you don't own an application that you can drive high gross margins. I think then gets back to this question. How long can you run the, your business for share, right? Hoping that someday because, you know, they all exist at the beneficence of the capital markets and the capital markets are willing to provide an incredible amount of capital to these businesses today.

40:59Sure are. Um, but, but you and I have, we've lived through these periods where that disappears quickly. And can I, can I put something there just to kind of hear your feedback on it guys, which is look at Google and the TPU. And Google is clearly, you know, by these numbers that we're seeing, right, putting out more tokens than anyone else, right? Do they, do you guys believe they have a strategic advantage because they have their own hardware, they're not having to pay, you know, 80 % margin on something that they can generate tokens with. Like, how do you guys look at that business and say clearly they look to be sort of the largest, at least openly saying, the largest processor of tokens?

41:38I didn't look the key data point in that case, which I don't have the data, but I'd be glad to repeat it if someone shared it with us is how many non -Google applications are running on the TPUs? Like, how many third -party customers are using? Because I would have heard or with the, you know, the general perception is, is that that most of their proprietary TPU transactions are their own applications. Yep. But that's probably where most of their tokens are being processed anyways at this point, Bill, right? Like, transcribing YouTube videos and, you know, all, you can Google meet, you can turn it on and all those searches.

42:16I was just inferring in your question, maybe I shouldn't have been, that they'll have an advantage for Google Cloud. And in order for that to be true, they need to, to have this cross -over moment. One quick thing, Brad, on OpenAI, you know, I've been writing a book which I've talked about frequently and I've been quite, although I guess there's some privacy things now you need to be worried about, but I've been quite open with OpenAI about the book and doing research, you know, along the way. It knows a tremendous amount about my book right now. And I can ask follow -up questions without having to put the whole book back in the prompt again because of that.

43:01And so I can, I would, I would continue to believe that OpenAI's most likely chance to long -term success comes from switching costs and lock in more than it will come from staying on the edge of the model race. Because I think, and the pricing, and the pricing power that comes with that brand, don't know that, right? No, that's right. Because the fact that matter is you said you're paying 200 bucks, you're getting more than $200 in value. I don't know what the price is, but I know that if it was variable, you would pay a hell of a lot more money to use that service too. I would, but the lock in once one of these systems starts to truly understand you and have all your historic knowledge.

43:46I think the switching costs will be very high at that moment in time. Sunny, back to your question about the TPU and the advantage of that vertical integration to Google. I think it's too early to know. What I would tell you is that they've absolutely made some changes. I think over the course of last three to four months to accelerate the business. You've seen the news about OpenAI, leveraging TPUs for some of the inference demands that they have. Ultimately, what I've said all along about Google is that many ways the best position company in the world, but a lot of their advantage is no longer much of an advantage.

44:31They were the dominant place where the consumer started every single query. We know today that's just not true. When people are looking for answers, Bill's book is not in Google. Bill's book is in chat, G -P -T, and that's the thing. Actually, it's in Google docs, but you're right. The knowledge of it. The knowledge of it and the interaction and the token generation. My only point is this. The battle for the consumer is ultimately where the value of a cruise sunny, not who runs hardware. Google's dominance, it's been the greatest business in the history of capitalism for 20 years because they owned the consumer, they owned the verb, in something that was extraordinarily high margin.

45:18All I would say is the first real threat in 20 years came about in the chat G -P -T moment. It's continued to accelerate. I think chat G -P -T will cross a billion weeklys, like maybe this year. Probably this year, I would guess. That to me has always been the case for OpenAI. When you look at the rest of these frontier labs, the case you've made throughout this pod about seven of these models in China being able to open source to still off one another, drive up intelligence, drive down costs. What that tells me is the model layer is being increasingly commoditized and that there's not going to be a lot of intrinsic value in that intelligence layer, that operating layer.

46:03You're going to have to build applications that guys like Bill Gurley and you and I are using every day. That's where the battle is on the consumer side. You're going to have the exact same battle when it comes to coding agents and general enterprise applications. I've said there, I think it's going to be more of a heterogeneous world. I think there are going to be lots of players that compete. I think the margins will be lower in that world. It may very well be that the tide is going up so much here. The whole world is transforming so much around this that you're still going to have lots of players who do incredibly well.

46:39I have to say I'm surprised. If you would have told any of us a year ago or 18 months ago, right, that the combined enterprise value of open AI and anthropic together would be over half a trillion dollars and you throw x .ai in there, it'd be a trillion dollars across the three of them roughly. It's bigger and faster and the compute demand is higher than any of us I think anticipated. Sunny, hopefully we can keep you on here for a bit. We're just going to wrap up with a topic that I think has dominated really the conversation in the markets over the course of last year. That's been about tariffs and the reordering of global trade.

47:21Bill, I know you had some questions, some thoughts about it. I'm happy to dig in and talk about it as well. Well, I would really just love to hear from you, Brad. The markets got very nervous when was a liberation day, when the unpredictable ability of how big some of the numbers were and what that might mean and whether we were walking away from the notion of comparative advantage and I think the markets got spooked. I think you turn around and look at where the markets are today and we've really gone through a evolution of how the Wall Street is interpreting the both the initial launch of the tariffs and the reality of where they're landing.

48:12How would you describe that and why do you think the markets are getting very comfortable with where they're landing? I mean, not only comfortable, but where at all time high? April 2nd, I was going on CNBC saying the nuclear Navarro was going to be a disaster and I'm out. The amazing thing about this administration is there's really, it's a team of rivals within the White House and you had a lot of people who were basically outlining this plan for, let's call it 10 to 15 to 20 % tariffs across the board. That would amount to about $300 billion in total tariffs up from $75 billion in 2024. But you had Navarro who was basically saying we're going to replace the internal revenue service.

49:02We're going to get rid of the income tax and we're going to have 2 trillion of tariffs. Okay. And I was very clear and I think the market was very clear. We all voted with our wallets and we said until the president tells us whether it's door one or door two, we're out. The market shot first and asked questions later and that's where you saw that huge drawdown in the market. The Nasdaq was down 21 % right at its trough this year. Now the Nasdaq's up over 10. It's a 30 % move in about 60 or 70 days, which is extraordinary even by the historical patterns that we've seen over the course of the last five years.

49:40But let me back up here for a second. I think the consensus view of all economists, right? 90 % of economists, is it tariffs are going to be bad? They're going to be attacks that gets paid by the US consumer. There was a small group led by, you know, Scott Bessent and Kevin Hassett at the National Economic Council that said no, it's actually going to be different this time. And the reason it's going to be different this time, their theory argued, was that the world had become dependent upon exporting to the United States. So that the total trade deficit to the United States of goods and services was about 915 billion last year, a $1 .2 trillion goods deficit.

50:29And that basically met that China was selling a lot more to the United States than they were buying of US goods. And so what Bessent and Hassett postulated was that these countries have no choice if we impose a tariff on them. So long as it's not draconian 70 % 80 % what Navarro was talking about, if we impose a 15 % tariff on them, they have to eat it. The producers have to eat it because otherwise they're going to end up laying off millions of people in Vietnam in China and these countries. And politically they can't afford to lay these folks off. So that was their theory of the case. The consensus economist said no way is that true, you're going to see massive inflation.

51:14But what have you seen? You have not seen the inflation percolate through. I will caveat this by saying yet, okay. So here we are in July, the consensus economist said it would have already happened. And the National Economic Council was out with the paper last week that deconstructed core PC. So that's the best proxy to Fed watches for inflation since the start of the year. And it showed this was really interesting. Import prices have been going up at a slower rate than domestically produced goods. Okay. So this is the exact opposite of what you would have expected from tariffs. Of course, you would have expected the imported prices would have been going up more than domestic goods.

52:02And so we'll show these charts. And we'll put the link to this paper. People ought to take a look at that. But to me, when I look at the president's, the deal is he's landing. The deal he just got announced yesterday with the European Union. 15 % on all goods coming from Europe, 0 % on US goods going to Europe. So in opening up of Europe markets, paying us 15 % on top of that, getting commitments like $750 billion, almost a trillion of energy purchases from the US, or look at Japan, which they announced last week, another huge market. Again, similar, they're going to pay tariffs to the United States.

52:45No tariffs imposed on the United States. And they're going to invest $550 billion into the US in a way the president gets to direct. So I just think we need to give the president credit where credit is due. Everybody said this was going to lead to retaliation to trade wars was going to be disastrous for the US. And all we've seen so far is deals, deals, deals, deals. And I have to say, if this was the CEO of one of our companies, right, let's say we had a board meeting at the start of the year and he outlined these plans and we said, Hey, we're really nervous about this. You know, this is a high risk high reward strategy.

53:25It's either going to backfire and we're going to fire you or it's going to work really well and we give you a bonus. If we're measuring them halfway through the year, I would say that he's in line for a bonus based upon the trillions of dollars that are going to be coming into the United States and the fact that we now have a 300 to a $350 billion recurring, you know, stream of revenues into treasury in the form of these tariffs, which are being paid. And I think Besson said last week in the month of June, we had our first surplus in the United States monthly surplus since 2015, right, because of the tariff revenues that are coming in.

54:08So I will say this, I was on the fence, I knew the nuclear tariffs, the trillion or two trillion, I knew that was a disaster. I said, if we landed the plane where Besson wanted to come in at 300 billion, I thought there was a decent chance that those prices could be passed on in the home countries and so far it looks like that's the case. Do you have any concerns with what's the anything you're watching out for? Well, I think the number one thing is core PC had did bottom last year and it started to tick up and so we have to keep our eye on inflation. And of course, I think it's almost impossible to conceive that we would have totally reordered the entire global trading system on the first pass with zero mistakes.

54:52So we're going to have some some goods and some products that, you know, consumers or US consumers are going to end up paying the taxes and we're going to have to go back and fix some of these things. But I will say that it's turning out massively better than consensus criticisms. I mean, remember Larry Summers at the Co -2 event. I mean, this was just a few months ago and he was saying, this is the biggest economic disaster of his career and I don't think you can describe it that way. The markets are the voting machine is telling you and these are a lot of sophisticated investors. The voting machine is telling you that no retaliations, no trade wars, all these deals getting done works for the US economy and I will tell you that the Atlanta now Fed tracker, which tracks real -time GDP has now ticked up back to 3%.

55:40So after going down a lot in April, it's bounced way back up. So economic activity appears to be going up. And then one final thing here, remember, one of the key reasons for doing this, right, wasn't just because we were, you know, there was, I mean, the EU conceded in the trade negotiations that our relationship was unfairly balanced in the direction of the EU. I mean, they said that's the starting point. So we have to rebalance it. But on top of that, a key reason for doing this was to support the domestic production of critical national industries and to make our supply chains more resilient.

56:19Chips, data centers, energy production, at Altimeter, we just led the series A in a company, I don't even know if we've announced it, but I'll announce it here, which is an all -American producer of rare earth magnets, right? So these are now viable investments because of the tariffs and the resolve of the government to re -enshore these critical supply chains. So I mean, that's a huge benefit that you would be willing to pay something for, but we're getting the benefit. And on top of that, we're getting paid. Yeah. Can I add one thing, guys? Like, not on the economic side, but like, you know, running the supply chain, you know, I broke and look, we're fortunate in that like, the majority of our supply chain is US -centric, including our chips.

56:58But, you know, we still have small discrete components. And Brad, exactly what you were saying is happening is that the producers of manufacturers of those things are coming and you're negotiating. And we've had pretty, you know, significant negotiation with those folks. And that was, I think, like, not like you said, wasn't anticipated. The other thing is, it hasn't been static. The one thing, again, I'll go back to this administration. They moved. Like, we've seen, you know, our tear of schedule move around probably six to eight times since this all has started because they keep evaluating the understand they listen.

57:31And I think that's also a function of how this administration operates. And we want to give them credit for that. Like, people can go and share with them, hey, like, these things are not available. We can't replace them right away. And I think that that's also helping with that last thing you said with the investment you're making is companies get established on short to take advantage of what these tariffs are causing. So he has your supply chain planning. Then that dynamic nature is that started to settle down. Do you see this, you know, are we reaching the end of the tariffs negotiations such that everything can kind of settle down in operate?

58:07It's gone from week to week or even day to day, what it first started and trying to figure what happened to like, now we're looking at it monthly. So it's definitely settling. And Brad, we still have a big thing looming with a China discussion. Correct. Yeah, you know, listen, so we landed Europe, we've landed Japan, we're going to have, you know, the long, the long list is going to be coming up. But when you look at our big trading partners, the EU, we do, I think, $900 billion of trade with Emma here, with China, it's about $600 billion. But we have about a $300 billion good trade deficit with both Europe and China.

58:44So they were the the two big ones. China is the big enchilada because it's not just trade with China, right? It's strategic, it's national security and it's trade and it's the AI race. We know that, you know, the rare earth ban on Chinese magnets was devastating to US industry. We know the retaliation that, you know, where H20s were cut off in terms of Nvidia chips back to China. Read the tea leaves. I'm going to, I'll go out on the limb and I'll say, the consensus still believes like that the China thing is going to be a problem or that it will be small. I think this president wants to do the biggest deal ever done with China.

59:26I don't think he's dogmatic at all. I don't think he's some big China hawk. He said at the AI summit last week, I'm a deal junkie. I like to do deals. You can't be the biggest deal maker in the world without doing a big deal with China. All right. Right. And I, and I, you know, if you just look at today, the Chinese reciprocated in a way, I think the US government was looking for. They said, hey, we'll postpone all of our retaliatory tariffs. They've invited the president to China. The president has suggested he's going to go to China the first week of September, sometime between September and November.

1:00:02I think there is a very, very big deal that's going to get done with China that's going to reorient the relationship in a big way. And let me just like tease this. The president said earlier this year, something that caught all of our attention. He said, you know, if I could wave a magic wand, I would cut the defense budget in half for the United States for China and for Russia. We've never heard a US president in history or anything like that. That is what I would call an extraordinary flexible mindset. And if you go into this deal negotiation with China, with that sort of flexible mindset, I think it could include all of the above rare earth chips, maybe even military cooperation, certainly a rebalancing of trade.

1:00:50I think China's, listen, we entered the year with China paying 15 % in tariffs. That was pre -Trump. They were paying 15 % to the United States and tariffs. So I don't think we're going below 15%. I think they're going to pay. in Trump. Trump won. In Trump won. Right. So I think that they will continue to pay at least 15%. But I think it's going to be much more structured, much more nuanced. You know, Besson's been very clear. China has to rebalance to domestic consumption and away from an export economy that's really sticking it to the US in terms of the trade deficit. I think China gets that.

1:01:27I think they want that for their own country. I think they're willing to do that. I think the United States understands that can't happen overnight. It has to happen over a period of years. I think that there's going to be a big Chinese deal done before the years out. So, so let's close with this, Brad. You've, you've often on the pod been willing to speak about your own temperature for the US markets and whether you're net longer than that short. And you've on this podcast been more enthusiastic than I've ever seen you both about about AI. But, but this, this China theory that you have, I think, would cause the markets to rip if you're correct.

1:02:09But you also said we're at all time highs. You know, and so you want to buy low and sell high. So where, where's your head hanging? We did a pod, I think, around May 2nd. Well, we did the pod in March. And I said, we're out of the market. Right. I remember. Right. And you said you're early and liberation day came and we were happy to be out of the market. On May 2nd, I said, we're out. We're all back in because the bests and consensus is one. It's going to be 300 billion. We're going to land the plane. And I outlined a flight path. I said, you can land the plane. No inflation. You get rate cuts and, you know, and it's kind of off to the races and we're up 30%.

1:02:46You know, off of that bottom in the Nasdaq since then. So 30 % as you move. But when you, when you tell us go about, we're up 10 % for the year. Okay. And if I had told you guys on day one of this year, here's what's going to happen. We're going to rebalance global trade and we're going to land the plane around 300 billion. We're going to have the economy grow at 3 % accelerating. We're going to, you know, have no inflation heading toward rate cuts by the end of the year. You know, that is the backdrop, you know, that I end we're going to have all of this AI demand and accelerating demand for AI compute.

1:03:28I would have said the market can be up at least 15 % for the year. I think we've captured a lot of the return for the for the year bill. I will tell you this though, we see tons of opportunities. And so I would say that we're also bullish on what we see happening in AI. Sonny's going to raise a huge new round here. We're happy to be investors with Sonny as well. And it's extraordinary to watch watch what Sonny's no, it's. Just close that he can edit it. He has a good weekend. Thank you, Sonny, for coming on with us today. Thank you so much. I know it's thanks. Thanks guys. Take care guys.

1:04:16As a reminder to everybody, just our opinions, not investment advice.