#42 Hinge CEO: The Cost of Living Crunch Is Changing How We Date

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30for all the great deals happening now. Save big money at Menards. Every story is a technology story in one way or another. And on the Interface podcast, we decode the tech that's rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, we'll look at whether or not Google is about to destroy the internet. Can the Pope save us from AI? And is Roblox finally facing a reckoning? Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:17Hello, welcome to the Big Boss interview podcast from the BBC, where we chat every week to some of the biggest leaders in business and finance, shaping how we live and work. And this week, my colleague, Sean Farrington, has been swiping right, swiping left. No, wrong app, Sean. But you've been delving into the world of online dating with the boss of one of the biggest players in that particular area. Yes, I've been speaking to the chief exec of Hinge, one of the biggest dating apps here in the UK, around the world as well. It's held up its user base pretty strongly compared to some of the other dating apps in recent years.

1:54and their story at Hinge has been one, as we hear in this interview, about focusing on Gen Z in particular. So we heard a lot about how users' habits are changing, users' aspirations are changing, and, of course, in a world where technology is changing very, very quickly. How does that play into how we use these apps and how those apps aid, assist us, whatever the word you want to use for that? Because Hinge, as you will hear, and Jackie Jansos, the chief executive there, talks a lot about getting people to go on a date. And we had an interesting discussion about to what extent should AI be able to be used in conversation, in profile building, that authenticity, that question around that as well.

2:37She had a lot of interesting things to say about what the struggles for many in Gen Z might be having in life at the moment, whether it's cost of living, loneliness, and how that plays into how people view dating and how they go about that as well. The world of events around us, some people trying to push back on against technology and thinking about joining that running club as a way to perhaps meet more people, meet your next date, and how that is playing into the thinking at Hinge as well. So there's plenty to get into with Jackie Jantos, Chief Executive of Hinge.

3:16Welcome, Jackie Jantos, Chief Executive of Hinge, to the Big Boss interview. Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. Yeah, and we managed to catch sort of a bit of behind-the-scenes info for listeners. Sometimes we managed to be in the same studio. We're not at the moment. So I managed, as I came into my studio, I sort of saw you attempting Gen Z heart signs rather than millennial heart signs. I mean, this is, you know, tricky territory, isn't it? You know, these are the things that you really need to get right when you're the CEO of Hinge, you know. And the young folks in the organization are always keeping me straight.

3:55Yeah. And I realized that I'd never actually, I was then attempting to make a Gen Z heart sign myself, never actually gone to the effort of doing that. Do you know how to? Only from seeing you do it. Yeah, you know, it's sort of these two fingers, right? Yeah. So it's a little bit… The middle fingers form the top of the heart. They do. index fingers that form the bottom no thumbs involved that's the key is it yeah if you don't want to be out of date as i clearly have been for years um well jackie your insights into different demographics how they behave how they're behaving right now you know it's one of the reasons we've got you on big boss interview because um dating apps has been you know a phenomenon of recent decades and when I was just thinking about like where they sit now in in the world where we are now whether it's people's aspirations the advance of technology love cost of living as well and how that plays into it all um it's interesting how the dating app itself can encapsulate quite a bit of that absolutely I mean we are building hinge for a gen z audience This audience is experiencing so much transformation right now.

5:10They're also living in a world where unemployment for them is at its high. Their lives are being transformed through AI and new technologies. And this is a group that has been spending less and less time in person with others. And that's fundamentally changing how they interact with other people and their comfort level of showing up in search of a relationship, which we know is also something that they deeply desire. So there is a lot going on and sort of a lot to talk about. Which one of those things do you think is having the biggest impact on how Hinge works, how the dating app scene works right now?

5:50I would say, you know, we know that Gen Z are spending 1000 less hours in person with each other per year than their same age group two decades ago. So if you just break that down to the simplicity of two plus hours per day spent not in the company of another human, but most likely sort of going deep in some sort of experience engaged in your phone, this sort of prevents people from having the experience of being around others. And that is quite a lonely experience. And so we are seeing that this generation disproportionately is feeling lonely and isolated. And in the UK, as one example, we know that almost half of Gen Z individuals in the UK are feeling lonely often or always.

6:47That is the audience who also want relationships, who are coming into Hinge looking for them. They do. We do know that they are also seeking love. But, you know, they experienced the pandemic during those years of late teens, early 20s, those years when you're sort of experimenting with how you show up in person with another person, how you flirt, how you think about intimacy, you know. So they absolutely want love. They're struggling to find ways to find it and struggling to have the confidence to put themselves out there. So how does that impact how that generation are interacting with Hinge?

7:27The fact that they're not so inclined to spend physical time with another human being as previous generations. I mean, it impacts everything. I think, you know, Hinge is an app that we say is designed to be deleted. And that is not just a marketing line. That's actually how we build our product. So from the very beginning of the onboarding experience all the way through, we are most motivated to help young users build momentum to get off the app and meet up in person. And great dates is what we measure. So that's the pitch, though. But if we know that generation are not spending as much time with other humans, then the conclusion of that would be that that means it's harder for the likes of Hinge to actually get people to do that.

8:22Yeah, it's very hard. You know, Hinge is a bit of an anomaly in the dating category right now that hasn't been growing. Hinge, by contrast, has been growing double digit user growth and revenue year over year. And that's partly because if you're actually building product to meet the needs of this generation, as I described, and helping them get off the app onto a great date, we measure that by asking, have you gone on a date? And if someone says yes, we say, do you want to go on a second date? And if they say yes to that, that's sort of what triggers a great date. So if we're orienting our product experience to that, someone who meets their partner on Hinge will tell sort of everyone where they met their partner.

9:07And that organically drives growth of users wanting to try Hinge again. So Hinge is owned by Match. Yes. And Match has many of the major players in the dating app scene portfolio that people will be aware of, including the likes of Tinder. Why is it that other apps have seen such a fall in the number of users? What has been going on? Yeah, you know, I think what's different about Hinge is the focus on that user outcome. And that focus has held true for a long time, which means that we have been really focusing on innovating the product experience as users' needs have shifted over the years in order to achieve that outcome.

9:51I think one of the things that you'll see many apps doing is sort of following in the wake, also now beginning to focus on user outcomes. Because in a category that's about helping you find a relationship, a product that actually does that will be the one that continues to grow. So I chalk Hinge's success up to the fact that we have been very focused on users. We do an enormous amount of research. We also think about what's happening in culture so we can see around the corner a bit with every next generation. Are you seeing more individuals using Hinge than you were a year ago or fewer people doing that?

10:31We are seeing positive growth in the UK, yes. Is that individuals using the app or is that of sales overall? Of individuals using the app. Right. You know, the way that we think about user growth is, again, if you focus on outcomes, the user growth follows, registrations follow, and revenue follows. And, you know, less than 15 % of our monthly active users are paying for subscriptions on Hinge. So really the free product and the free experience is what we focus most of our energy on. And are you seeing the proportion of men increase within that or the proportion of women? Hinge is a very balanced gender and we are maintaining the consistency of that balance.

11:16So when you said the balance, what are the numbers there, the proportions? I can't speak to the exact numbers, but they haven't changed. I can't speak to the direct numbers for the UK specifically, but they really haven't changed over the course of the four and a half years that I've been at Hinge, where we have initially made this pivot to focus on Gen Z. So is it similar to the wider market? Yes. So are we talking, you know, is it fair to say you're talking 60, 70 % of the users are men? It's a bit more balanced than that, 40, 45 or so. Gotcha. And so 45 % are men? Women. Women, 45 % are women.

11:58And yeah, and I just wonder, year on year, has that gone up or down? That has stayed consistent. So, you know, we focus on female growth quite specifically. So gender balance on Hinge, especially because it's an app that's about high intent dating, is really important to the community for a variety of reasons. But, you know, the focus for us is on bringing women into the app. You know, this is a category where men sort of follow women. And so for us, so long as we stay that focus, which is the goal, because, you know, particularly given we are the only dating app at this scale with that type of gender balance, it's critical for us to maintain that.

12:43So that's a huge focus of our work. And as you look across the UK, what demographics do you see getting stronger and which ones are maybe getting weaker? What can you tell us about life and dating online around the UK? Yeah, again, you know, we pretty much exclusively focus on a Gen Z dating audience. We see, you know, we see growth across all audiences, but Gen Z is really our core focus at Hinge. So it's your focus. Does that mean our older generations moving away from dating app? No, it doesn't. But the way that I think about it is, you know, I've spent my career sort of at the intersection of global brands and businesses and youth culture and dating and relationships.

13:30It is a deeply human sort of like culturally led thing. And so, for example, If you look at Gen Z as a demographic, this demographic, particularly in the UK and in many markets, is increasingly LGBTQI plus representative year over year, decade over decade. So when we look at actually the umbrella of LGBTQ individuals, the fastest growth is coming with the bisexual young women. These aren't necessarily women who have had a sexual experience, but this is how they're identifying. So for us, if you're building an app, again, going back to focusing on user outcomes and going back to building product features that are delivering against the needs of next generation audiences, those are the type of macro cultural insights that you need to pay attention to and be building a product for.

14:24So in order to serve next generations, we're thinking about fluidity. We're thinking about how we enable experiences that build individuals' confidence along the way, knowing that they're feeling isolated alone. And again, the use of technology and that steep decline of time spent in person, this is another macro force that's not going to change over the years. So I think the way that we think about building product is we build for those future-facing audiences. And as we do that, you know, when you think about inclusive design, which is a different conversation, but when you build for those with the most sort of acute needs, you end up building a product that is better in service of everyone.

15:11So this is what's keeping the momentum at Hinge. It's staying focused on what the next generation is looking for and what the next generation needs in order to have a dating experience that feels more fulfilling. And this is what keeps our product innovating. We have a number of incredible new features on their way to the UK that have launched in other places. Things like Signals. This is a feature that helps you understand which daters on the app are putting in what we believe to be highly intentional, thoughtful, effortful behaviors. And so you can sort of get a sense for a person who you might be interacting with on the app, are they putting in the work?

15:56You know, one of the things we hear from women in Gen Z and sort of across cohorts is that there's this feeling that there's this disproportionate emotional labor put into the dating app experience and many experiences in life, if I'm honest. And so what they're looking for are signals that other people are putting in an equal amount of effort. So Signals is a really big product feature that launched in the U.S. a couple of days ago and is coming here. With Signals, how do you know that what looks like, what might look like a lot of extra effort isn't artificial intelligence being used to do all of that?

16:34I mean, it's an incredible question. You know, a lot of how we know what we know is we have over 15 million daters on the app and we learn from them. And trust me, they give us so much feedback. And so a product like Signals sort of started in the market in test, you know, quite a few tests actually, to see if what we believe are signals or effort pair with what users on the app perceive to be as signals of effort. And then, you know, the proof is in what they tell us and the experience they're having over time. And that's how we improve product. You know, that's the sort of beauty of being in tech, you know, whether, you know, you can really sort of learn real time, adapt real time.

17:23Of course, you can test out these incredible AI tools. But ultimately, the people on the app who are your customers, they will tell you and you will see whether you're growing or not growing what sort of experience they're truly having. So if somebody was using, as no doubt people are, everybody's using them in all aspects of life now, using artificial intelligence to improve their profile and maybe their responses. If the person on the receiving end of that, those signals, to put it in your product's language, if they're happy with that then then hinge is happy with that well the way that we think about ai we use ai we absolutely use ai and you know the first way we use ai of course is we are a product that sits upon a recommender and that is machine learning at its core so we've been using ai for many many years you know i just mean in terms of customers actual people using your product using artificial intelligence.

18:28It's not that you look to spot where people are just using AI to upload certain improvements on their profile. No. So the way that we use AI is, there are three ways at Hinge. First is the recommender that I just described. The second is we have a number of embedded tools and features that users use to express themselves through their profiles. So profiles on Hinge, we lose about 20 % of folks who come onto the app through the onboarding experience because the onboarding experience asks quite a lot from you, especially in this category. And we're fine with losing people on that experience because it's intended to be a community of people looking for an intentional relationship.

19:13So prompts, as an example, which Hinge invented, is a sort of an icebreaker question that we ask a number to be filled out. So an example of an AI tool on Hinge is prompt feedback. This is a tool that you can use should you want to. It will review your prompt and it will help you understand the quality of your prompt. And spoiler alert, a high quality prompt is one that has quite a bit of detail and is long because ultimately on Hinge, you're building out a rich profile where we're looking for engagement from another person right off the bat of profile reviews. So it's modular. No, because actually, for example, if I'm filling out a prompt and it says, I love watching movies, that's not a particularly strong prompt because it gives no context really to another person looking at my profile.

20:05It gives no way in. So the prompt would say, it would say, tell me more, What kind of movies do you like? And I would say, oh, my favorite movie is Amelie. What do you love about Amelie? I love that it's this gorgeous love story between these two people. And I love watching movies on every Saturday I go and see a matinee. Now, when that is in the profile, now the prompt feedback will tell me that's a great prompt. And it's a great prompt because it's specific. It's in my words. And what prompt feedback as an AI tool has done has helped extract from me a little bit more detail. So when someone sees my profile, they might say, oh, I also love French films.

20:47Like, have you seen this one or this one? You know, it's a way in that gives more context. That's how we use AI. So you're comfortable with that in sort of the profile detail of somebody? It is helping someone tell more of who they are in their own words. Would you be happy with that in the messaging as well? With if people were replying to somebody else and they just said, I like movies. Yeah. You know, another AI tool we have is Convo Starters. I think this is getting a little bit closer to what might be in your head, albeit it's slightly different on the app itself. So Convo Starters offers some ways into a conversation, but they're just thought starter ideas.

21:32Like at the end of the day, our app is oriented towards getting you off the app into a date. So you are going to show up in person as you are to meet someone who has shown up in person as they are. And if that connection does not feel authentic to who you've been interacting with on the app, Hinge has failed. And so that is not sort of the space that we play in. Like we are looking for authenticity. This is a community of people that are highly intentional, looking for a real relationship and struggling to find it. So the work that we do is in service of helping them better express themselves.

22:12Again, going back to a group of people spending less time in person with others, there can be a little bit of a lack of confidence, a little bit of questioning around how to express yourself and what might be the right things to share and what makes a good prompt or how do I lean into a conversation beyond saying like, hey, hey, you know, this is not the type of surface level interaction we're looking for between humans on the app. Does that bring a trust question as well? If you're getting to a point where both sides of a conversation are being helped along to have the conversation, that you actually, you know that you're using this tool, you know the other person is using this tool, that actually you may trust less that you are getting an authentic idea of what might be possible on a date because of the use of technology so much?

23:09You know, we don't see that because of the way technology is used in our app. You know, it's very, first, you sort of opt into the tools should you need a little bit of support. and second, you know, as I described really, they're about helping you express who you are. They're not about writing words for you or having a conversation on your behalf. That's really the work that you're there to do, you know, and quite a lot of the work that we also do because we sit on so much insight from this audience and they tell us so much and we do so much deep research, both of our own users, also of just the general audience, also at like a very high cultural altitude to better understand what's going on and how we might complement and help people on their journey.

23:57We also use all of our marketing channels and tools to really publish research reports on digital body language or what's going on in the LGBTQI plus community and dating or dating with ADHD. This is a really large conversation within Gen Z of which an increasing number of individuals identify as having ADHD and that can help that can be you know that can also be a barrier to dating so we use a lot of our channels to give tips and tricks to young daters to sort of like help them consider the experience they're having and how they can show up more authentically as themselves and do you let the goal is for them to feel confident and, you know, want to get off the app.

24:44Because again, that's what we're measuring. So if we're not growing because people are getting off the app, that organic growth, you know, is really critical and has been a huge part of how we've continued to grow in a category where really everyone else has either stagnated or is really working on turning around. Do you let the person who's on the other side of the conversation know if the person they're chatting to is using AI tools or not? Um, it doesn't quite work that way because, you know, a prompt extracted, borrowing a tool like getting feedback on your prompts so you explain more, you know.

25:23Because you're saying you opt into using it if you want to use it. I just wonder whether the person on the other end should be made aware that the person they're talking to is getting a bit of help with this. No, because the person is using their own words to describe who they are, right? This is coming out of my voice. This is about me. This is what I like to do. And now I'm going to let you know that I also like to do it on the weekends. And like, these are not, this is not AI writing or performing as you. This is AI giving you tips on encouraging you to tell more about yourself. Do you understand the distinction?

26:04Yes, absolutely. And I mean, it's just fascinating the amount of aspects artificial intelligence will be having on the world of online communications, which like dating is a centre of that. You know, the trustworthiness in pictures is another one as well. I mean, that's long been a sort of question mark of the authenticity or what a picture really represents on people's profiles. Is it representing them? Is it one split second moment of their life? Do you have to do more now to try and figure out which pictures are made with artificial intelligence? Because some of them are pretty, pretty lifelike, aren't they?

26:47And they could be putting you in situations around the world. You could have been the greatest traveller around the world, but never left your home. And you could set up a load of pictures that would be giving you the impression of that. We don't see as much of that. we don't really see that on Hinge because the app is so high intent. You know, I talked a little bit earlier about the use of AI and the recommender and some of these tools that help you tell more about yourself. The third way we use AI is really our trust and safety tooling. And AI is a huge unlock. Well, one example is, you know, large language models.

27:22When you think about if you're sending someone a message and our tooling identifies that you may be using a word that could be harmful or could be offensive to someone. You may not even know. A lot of people who send messages, it's a cultural context. It might not even be intended to be that way. We have a tool called, are you sure? And that will pop up and say, are you sure you want to send this message? And a number of people look at that message, look at the message they just wrote and think, oh, okay, maybe it's this word, maybe I should rephrase that and then change and send their message.

27:59On the flip side, AI helps us understand messages that someone's receiving. And if something could be harmful, could pop up to the recipient and say, did this bother you? And then you could give that feedback to us. So the feedback we receive in an instance like that, grounded by AI, is helping us better understands how we can do more interventions in that way to make sure that people are respectful towards each other in moments where actually they might not be trying to be disrespectful by design. It might just be sort of a cultural nuance. But what if that is who they are? What if that is the authentic version of them?

28:39Whatever the, you know, the intentions, that may be their authentic person? And shouldn't the person on the other side of that conversation be allowed to be exposed to that to make a decision about who they might be meeting? You know, I think when people express themselves, we offer tools with the hopefulness that individuals are showing up in this highly intentioned app. They've gone through quite a long onboarding. They've gone through the journey of engaging with someone. And ultimately, again, the goal is to get off the app and get into a great date. But when they get on that date, they may use that word.

29:19So people are able to make choices. You know, people have agency to sort of decide whether this is a conversation they want to continue with, whether it's a conversation they don't. But if it's a term, sorry to interrupt you, but I think this is like quite an interesting point of this. If it's, let's say, somebody was using a term or a phrase that your AI picks up the maybe not appropriate for you to be using that and you flag that to that person and so they go okay yeah I won't use it but then the date happens and that's used on the date that's they haven't got any hinge AI to nudge them in certain directions on a date and the other person is being exposed to something that they would possibly have been able to catch if you hadn't intervened?