The final Business Matters

0:04Hello and welcome to Business Matters here on the BBC World Service. I'm Rahul Tandon. That's the last time you're going to hear an introduction like that because this is our final ever programme. From next week, you'll be able to hear our colleagues at the newsroom who will be bringing you all the latest on those global news stories. And let's be honest, there's quite a lot of them around. So we thought, what would we do on our last programme? It clearly is an emotional moment for many of the presenters, many of the producers who have worked on this programme. And, you know, we thought, what should we do?

0:36Well, we thought, why not look back on the last 12 years 12 and a bit years that Business Matters has been going, and look at some of the big economic stories that we have covered during that time, because many of them are still having a huge impact on life today. If we talk about COVID-19, Donald Trump becoming the president, the emergence of China and India as global economies. And we thought we're going to have a range of guests. We're going to try something different on our last programme, because that's what we've tried to do all the way through as we've been looking to connect those time zones.

1:08We've got three in the first half, three regulars in the second. We've got Jyoti Malhotra, editor of the Tribune in Jandiga in India, Yoko Ishikura professor at Hitsubishi University in Tokyo, and Andy Ula, researcher at Texas Energy Institute. How are we all? We're great. Hi, good morning. A little sad, but good. I'm all excited. Good, good, good, good, good, good. Well, it's great to have you all here. Let's take you back to Midnight GMT on the 2nd of April 2013, the day that Business Matters was launched. Let's hear a little bit of it. Hello and welcome to Business Matters. I'm Mark Whittaker.

1:49And on the programme today, after the bailout, Cyprus's finance minister bails out of office. Michael Saris is the first political casualty of the island's financial crisis. Too much information. A European regulator takes Google to task. There we go. That was Mark Whittaker there. What a lovely man. He is sadly no longer with us. He died in October 2014. We think that might have been day two, but never mind. It was near the start. Jotty, I was listening back to some of the tapes and you were on pretty early, weren't you? You were on in that very first month of Business Matters. Wow. I don't recollect that I was on in the first month, but I have been around for a while.

2:27Well, I can tell you that you definitely were. Andy, do you remember when you were on for the first time? I do. I started at Marketplace, which is a partner with the BBC, American Public Media. And it was sort of tasked by our foreign editor. We had to once a month appear on Business Matters. So I remember just starting and I was probably like maybe a month in and they were like, all right, you're going to be on the BBC. Just get ready. So there we go. And there you go. You were ready then and you are ready now. And Yoko, what about you in Tokyo? Yeah, well, I was trying to figure out what year was the first program.

3:08And it turned out I couldn't figure out which year it was. But BBC had a special program in Japan, which I joined as a guest. And I think that's how it started. And I think the emcee, yeah, passed away, unfortunately. But I remember that was a time when Japan was in great shape. A lot of people were interested. Japanese business was doing very interesting things. So those are the good old days. The good old days. That's what we're looking back on the program today, the good old days. Well, one of the first big stories we covered happened just weeks after the program launched. That was the collapse of the eight-storey Rana Plaza building in Dhaka, which killed more than 1 ,100 people.

4:01There had been warnings when the cracks first appeared, but the owners of the building did not evacuate its occupants.

4:10We heard about some cracks in the building yesterday, but this morning they said everything was fine. I don't know why they did not give us the day off and check out the building properly.

4:22There were garment manufacturers inside the company making clothes for some of the biggest Western companies. That started a debate, Jotty, that continues till today, I think, doesn't it? On, you know, the way that some products are made in emerging economies. And how much progress do you think we've made on that? You know, so much has changed, Rahul, in Bangladesh. I remember this story so clearly. But, you know, Bangladesh has had a new government, as you know. And some things have changed. But I think since the new government came to power, or the last prime minister fled and she's in India, Sheikha Sina, I think Bangladesh has been through a huge upheaval.

5:06And it's one of its key exports, which is of garments. I don't think they have really stabilized with that. So things are really not in very good shape in Bangladesh. Although I and this Rana Plaza story was such a big one, because I think there was a there were a lot of questions on on why Bangladesh, which was not able to treat its labor as fairly as competitively and paying them at least a decent minimum wage. And you had all these sort of sweatshops and people didn't care too much about them. And I remember, I think now that I think back, I remember arguing even at the time that you had to look at the story in Bangladesh and not from the eyes or from the point of view of a Western consumer.

5:56So, yeah, so that story remains, you know, very much part of our growing up, I think, not just in the BBC, but as journalists. I think so as well. And that debate about the perspectives of it, particularly when we're talking about, you know, child labour in particular, that side of debate is an interesting one from different perspectives, because a lot of families who have their children working don't want them to work, but it's often economic circumstances that force them to do that. And, you know, was that the beginning, do you think, of some people in countries like the US, Europe, thinking a little bit more ethically about how they bought products?

6:35You know, I hope so. I don't know that it necessarily resonated as deeply with Western consumers and sort of thinking about – because the sort of ask of the consumer is to take it steps beyond you just going to the retail store and buying it, right? It's an ask of I need to figure out exactly where this is coming from, how it's made, who's making it, what the conditions are. for the Western consumer, specifically in the United States, that's a lot of steps to take when you just kind of want to go to that. I mean, I'll talk as you know, as an American consumer, you just want to go to the store and get whatever you want.

7:13And that has been sort of the nature of our buying practices. I don't know. I sort of hope Rahul that that you're right, that these sorts of things make people think about exactly where they're getting their stuff, how they're getting it, how it's being manufactured. I just don't know that it necessarily sort of swings the pendulum here in the US. Things happen all the time. And, you know, I just don't know how much it resonates, sadly. Yeah. Okay. When we think about India, and we think about the US, I think it's pretty clear. And we're going to talk about these two characters in a little bit more detail about who has dominated politics in the period that Business Matters has been on air.

7:53But if we were to look at japan yoka who has been the most influential figure of the last 12 years do you think when it comes to the japanese economy i would say it was i'm not talking necessarily talking about the economy but abe was who was assassinated had uh was had a great presence and it's i think we still in a way more uh what he was trying to do and we realize after all these things that how, what kind of views he had and how influential he was, because he did a lot of things outside of Japan, you know, in overseas setup. And he was trying to propose a lot of things which he believes in, but not necessarily in Japan, which most Japanese politicians do, but overseas, like at the UN or, you know, other places, so that he can make a big presence there.

9:01So I think in a way, and I happen to know the speech writer of Abe, he still writes so much about Abe because he made such a strong presence and impression on him. And I really do like this speechwriter. But it's his his role was quite significant because he made sure that his message get across to the people outside, not necessarily in Japan. Well, I just make sure. Yeah, yeah, that is that. Yeah, that is interesting. And I think Abenomics, you know, has been a key part of the global economy. The biggest story for India, Jyothi, clearly has been the emergence of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. He came to power in 2014, was sworn in on the 26th of May that year.

9:55Fergus Nicol, of course, who presented this programme for many years, reported on his second election victory. Here he is in Varanasi on election day in May 2019. All in favour of Modi. Modi! Modi! Modi! This is the young man who started that chant. I'm coming from Dubai just to vote in India. My hometown is Varanasi, just to vote for Modi. So you're working in the Middle East, and you've made sure to come back for the vote. Why is it so important for you? Because of the development happening in Varanasi. Now, if you see the development here, it's totally different. The ins and outs have changed like anything.

10:30It's a drastic change. What would you say were the most important changes? What's the best development? Infrastructure development, the roads, streets, lights, everything. So we all are excited for the new government of Modi again. Is the development enough to stop people like you having to go to the Arab world? Yes, we are coming back. We'll work back in India. If Modi government comes back in India, we will definitely come back to India. I remember that excitement. If you look now, Jyoti, at Narendra Modi economically, what do you think his biggest contribution has been? Because India's economic development has been rapid, hasn't it?

11:05It's been unequal at times, but there's no doubt about this is a country that has moved forward in the last 12 years incredibly when we're talking about its economy? It has been incredible. First of all, Rahul, the fact that since that programme, which was in 2019, like you said, with Fergus Nicol, this is the third time that Prime Minister Modi has been elected to power. and he's now perhaps one of India's longest-serving prime ministers, I think only second to Jawaharlal Nehru, who was India's first prime minister. He's from the Bharti Janta Party, which is a right-wing political party, and the fact is that there is nobody else in sight who can even reasonably be called a competitor.

12:01So this is his third term in power. In this third term, the interesting thing is that while the economy has grown, you said rightly that inequality also between the people has grown hugely. But one of the big things is that while India is much more integrated into the global economy in the last 11 years since Prime Minister Modi has been Prime Minister, But lately, over the last few months, there has been a lot of sort of dissonance, if you like, between India and the West because of India's determination to continue to buy oil from Russia. And this has caused a lot of, shall we say, differences between Prime Minister Modi and Donald Trump, especially.

12:48You have been very polite there, I think, in the way that you have described the spat between what had been two good friends. And that brings us perfectly to get Andy Ula to talk about this moment. Let's forward to the 20th of January 2017 when this happened. Many thought it couldn't happen. It wouldn't happen, even, that it shouldn't happen. But it has. Donald Trump has become the 45th president of the United States. Tens of thousands of people, supporters, observers, protesters, crowded into Washington, where the pomp and ceremony has been in full flow all day. In what some commentators have described as a somewhat bleak inauguration address, Donald Trump said he'd put an end to what he called American carnage.

13:30Every decision on trade, on taxes, on immigration, on foreign affairs will be made to benefit American workers and American families. We must protect... There we go. Ended a bit abruptly there. But it was John Bithry before that, one of the other presenters of business. Matt Zandihula, what a moment that was when he won that first election. Well, you know, the second term. I mean, that was incredible. This man that nobody expected to win came from nowhere and ended up as the president of the U.S. showing anything is possible in the U.S. Oh, Ruhul, I'm sort of reticent to tell you this. I went to a basketball game election night because we had already set up our coverage of the transition to the Clinton administration.

14:20It was going to be sort of what Obama's economics was going to look like in the Hillary Clinton administration. And I went to a basketball game and I'm sitting and looking at my phone and looking at the numbers. and I because the because the basketball game was in downtown I just walked to our newsroom because I was like we're gonna be up all night we're gonna have to figure out how to program tomorrow's show because we didn't none of us nobody and I'm a news person I didn't expect it um it was it was incredible and it was it's so interesting because it ended up being 10 years of me talking about tariffs on this show, right?

15:02I think Prime Minister Modi's dominated a lot of conversation. Yoko, maybe Abe didn't quite dominate as many, but I think if you were going to look at the figure we've spoken about the most on business matters, got to be, got to be President Trump. Now, I think if there was one moment during our time on business matters that I think nobody ever expected to see, it was this. It seems like a lifetime ago, but remember 2020? China remains the epicentre of the outbreak. There are now more than 75 ,000 infections and over 2 ,200 deaths there. But with each passing day, more cases are being reported in other parts of the world.

15:42And the World Health Organization is now warning that the world is at a tipping point in its efforts to contain the virus. Here's the Director General, Tedros Adhanom Gabrielsos. Although the window of opportunity is narrowing to contain the outbreak, we still have a chance to contain it. But while doing that, we have to prepare at the same time for any eventualities because this outbreak could go any direction. And it did, didn't it, Jyoti? It sure did. And India suffered badly. India suffered badly and you know right in the beginning we didn't the hell know what was going on because soon after the this this sort of pandemic was announced it was a word that we had and you know we had to sort of fish out of our out of the vocabulary of of you know we had it hardly we'd hardly ever use this word right Rahul and the other word that we then learned to use very quickly was comorbidity.

16:45And if you didn't have, if you had something that you didn't know you had, you know, whether it was blood pressure or cholesterol or something or the other, and then the country shut down. And gosh, it was just one of the, it's been such a crazy experience. And all those business matter episodes. And actually, Rahul, that's what changed business matter for me is because prior to COVID, we all had to go into the BBC studio. You did. In New Delhi. Yeah, I remember being in there with you on a couple of occasions. Yeah, absolutely. And then we learned to, you know, to do the shows from our own homes early in the morning.

17:22And, you know, so that was a big change. But yeah, COVID was, you know, it was crazy. The country shut down. You couldn't go anywhere. If you went out, you had to sort of, you know, sanitize yourself before you returned home. and work was from home and that was another phrase. Work from home. Yeah, work from home. That's where we started. Yoko, how do you think COVID changed Japan economically? Oh, I think it really did change quite a bit in the sense that we are, you know, the Japanese is known to be very risk averse, aversive, averse. So I think we really did take very restrictive measures. So people were not supposed to go out.

18:09If anybody is not wearing masks outside, you know, you can get killed almost. Wow. And so, yeah. So I think that really worked in a way because we didn't have that many people who got killed because we just refrained from all these things. And I remember that probably in 2020 or something, when I went to the U.S. after being in Japan, which is so restrictive, you can't do anything. I couldn't believe that people were still doing all sorts of things and said, you know, the COVID is over. Who cares? Kind of thing. And I said, what is going on in here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always look back at COVID and sometimes wonder, well, I wish it didn't happen, but I wonder if it did happen because life seemed so different then to what it is now.

19:11And Andy, it did change. And Jotty's right, isn't it? When it came to work and the way that we worked, it's changed it forever and also maybe attitudes to work as well. Yeah, no, I think you're right. It was so interesting sort of talking. and I remember being on the show talking about the shift in leverage, right? That if after sort of restrictions were laid down a little bit, then workers didn't want to come back to the office. And so they had the leverage to tell their employers, hey, we want three days at home and two days in the office. What do you think? Or we're just going to look for another job.

19:45It was also that the job market was so in the United States specifically, workers had all the leverage. And so I remember thinking – I also remember getting just an absolute crash course in how global the economy is and how supply chains are so fragile. I just didn't know it until – and I was an economics reporter, right? I was reporting on trade all the time. I just didn't know how specifically fragile global supply chains were and it was great for us to learn it, right? I think it was and I think that's not a reflection on Andy doing his job. I think it's all. No, no, honestly, it was all of us, I think, suddenly realized that was it.

20:25OK, final question to all three of you now. If we start with Yoko, what do you think? And briefly, because we've got to get to the news. So about 30, 40 seconds each. Yoko, what's the biggest economic challenge facing Japan that we won't be covering on Business Matters over the next few years? Right now, I think it's much more likely the biggest challenge facing the whole world. And Japan is, you know, it's a part of it. But, I mean, world economy is such a turmoil and so chaotic. Nobody could figure out what's going on. And so everybody is trying everything else. But I'm not really sure which way we're going to go.

21:07Well, let us see what happens there. Turmoil, uncertainty, that's what Yoko says. What about India, do you think, Jyoti? Similar again, 40 seconds. What's the biggest one there, biggest challenge? Well, the biggest one, of course, is, you know, two challenges. One is the inequality within the country while the economy is doing well. But I think, you know, more people need to get jobs. And of course, the big, the big, big spat with the Americans with tariffs on Indian goods at 50 percent. But is this the time to say goodbye, Rahul? Because I'm suddenly feeling, oh my God, that maybe we're not going to be all together again.

21:48And I just want to say that it's been incredible across cities, across governments, across jobs. And it's been a sort of growing up. But what I've loved so much about Business Matters and the BBC is that you've asked us to give you a different perspective of the same story. And that's what I've loved so much. So thank you. We've loved having you on. Andy, you've got about 30 seconds. Biggest challenge facing the U.S. Yeah, no, I was going to tell you, Rahul, you teed it up. It's basically the nature of work and AI, honestly. It's going to be figuring out what those jobs are, what those sustainable jobs are for the American worker.

22:27We're going to deal with that. We're going to be dealing with that for a hot minute. And this has been so fun. Thank you so much for having us. Andy, Jyoti, Yoko, for the final time, we want to say thank you to you for the different perspectives you've brought to our listeners over the years, from Japan, from the US, from Texas, and from India, and for the conversations that we have had and enjoyed with you over that period of time.

23:03Welcome back to Business Matters here on the BBC World Service. It's a very special programme. It's a bit of an emotional one, if we're perfectly honest about it, because it is our last one from Monday. You'll be able to listen to the newsroom, which will be on this time, bringing you, of course, all the coverage of those stories from across the world. And there are a lot of stories, aren't there, at the moment? Of course, we may lose business matters. We do get a new programme, World Business Express. You can listen with Liana Byrne from Monday. Definitely worth a listen. Liana is great. Right.

23:35We have replaced our cast for the first half hour. We have a new cast who we aren't getting to slowly, but we know who we definitely have. And if there's one person who's divided opinion on this program almost as much as Donald Trump, it is our very own Peter Morisi. Peter, how are you? Well, I'm fine. Thank you. And I'm delighted to be here. You know, I did the pilot on this show. Did you really? I was there at the beginning. So do we have to say that the reason that we've all been going for 12 and a half years is you put up a pretty impressive performance on that date? Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I think we did pretty well that day.

24:12And I think we've had a pretty good show all these years. I think that's very true. Do you remember who was on with you? No, I don't, to be very honest. All I know is that I was called by a producer from the BBC, a woman named Nick Graft, who said that CBS had recommended me, CBS Radio. And I said, I don't know if I can make this work because I have a conflict. And she said, well, you know, they recommended you very highly. And I'm so glad I rearranged my schedule to do it because it's been an absolute delight to do this show for almost 13 years. Well, it's been a delight to have you on the program.

24:46Also, somebody else we're always delighted to have on, Memal Safras, who is there in Lahore. Now, we're not going to talk cricket because India play in Pakistan. And I don't want to fall out on the final programme. Memal, how are you? Yes, Rahul, let's not discuss that. Good morning. And I'm good. Well, let's be honest. When they play in tournaments, you have to admit this. India tend to win more often than Pakistan. That is true, isn't it? In big tournaments, yes. Big tournaments. That's true. How much is that winning little tournaments? Right. We're going to get David Quote to join us hopefully in a few minutes.

25:22But let's go to this first because we're going to bring back some of the reportage. One of the great things about the programme was it travelled the world. A lot of the presenters went and bought you stories that you wouldn't have heard of otherwise. So reporting offer involves going into challenging and unfamiliar settings. And let's face it, being a bit nosy. And who better to do that? Even if it comes with surprising consequences, Then our very own Roger Hearing, of course, was on the programme yesterday. Here he is reporting from a journey he took in Russia. So we're just waiting now for them to bring the passport back that they took off me so that they can do the fingerprinting.

25:57I'm standing here looking down the line toward North Korea, the line that comes through this station that seems to be almost wholly unused, even though it's got all the facilities, including passport control booths, security apparatus. Well, that was an interesting experience. We got reasonably close before we were detained, arrested in fact by the Border Security Force. This area is restricted and we clearly didn't have the necessary papers and after a lengthy process of being interrogated, asked what our business was, forced to write down what we're doing, we've been let off with, in my case, a 500 ruble fine and a warning.

26:38I suppose it could have been a great deal worse. Clearly, there is communication across this border, which only has a rail bridge. There is no other way of getting across. But at the moment, the relations between Russia and North Korea are, I would say, respectful, if not exactly enthusiastic. There we go. Roger hearing some of the rapporteur. It was difficult to go. Stephen, who's across from me, is the one who's been going through it all. And we could have filled hours of the programme with some of the great reporting that we have had. Right. David Kuo has joined us. David, delighted to have you on the programme.