NASA Administrator on Aliens, SpaceX IPO and Beating China to the Moon

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2:11Integrity's astronauts, back on Earth. I did get to put my kids in front of the screen, a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, to watch Artemis II take off, and it was just, it was awesome.

2:21Jared Isaacman:We're just getting going. For Jared Isaacman, NASA's administrator, there was a lot at stake. I said it many times, it's a lot easier to strap yourself on top of the rocket than to be on the ground and be responsible for it, especially when you know that's not just Artemis II taking flight, that's America's space program on the launch pad. Isaacman would know. He's been to space before, aboard SpaceX's Inspiration4, the first all-civilian mission, and then leading SpaceX's Polaris Don three years later. He's also an entrepreneur, a fintech billionaire who's bringing his experience in business to running the U.S.

2:58space agency.

2:59Jared Isaacman:This is the first time since I was a teenager that I show up to work with zero economic interest whatsoever, just what's for the good of the nation, what's in the best interest of America's space program. Right now, that means facing heightened space competition with China and competition for talent with the growing private space sector, all amid proposed budget cuts from the White House.

3:25I'm Tim Stenebeck, in for Sarah Holder and David Gurra, and this is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. Today on the show, my conversation with NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman on returning to the moon in 2028, why America needs nuclear octocopters in space, and whether he believes in aliens.

3:51NASA is coming off a big win, sending astronauts into deep space aboard one of the most powerful rockets ever built, and then bringing them home safely. Still, it's been nearly 60 years since Apollo 11 touched down, when Neil Armstrong became the first person to walk on the moon. I asked the administrator why, so many years later, the U.S. is reprioritizing the moon.

4:14Jared Isaacman:Well, I would say that I'm not reprioritizing at all. What I'm doing is working with all the talented minds at NASA to ensure our plan to achieve the policy that's essentially been in place since President Trump's first term when he created the Artemis program is actually possible. So 35 years, every president has called for a return to the moon. It sounds great. Certainly, I think, gets the public riled up. It wasn't until President Trump's first term when he actually created the Artemis program that put focus back on it again. And then my first day on the job, the day I was sworn into office, he put out a national space policy that said, don't just return to the moon.

4:52Jared Isaacman:Do so to stay. Build an enduring presence. Build a moon base on the surface. So we are increasing production of hardware, pulling it to the left. We added a mission in 2027 to test out the Orion spacecraft that the Artemis 2 crew was in with the lunar landers and use that data to inform the plan for Artemis 4 in 2028, where astronauts will put their boots back on the surface of the moon. What would establishing bases on the moon allow us to do? So that's a great question. For 25 years, we have maintained a continuous human presence in low Earth orbit at the International Space Station, which if you take a step back and think about it, if you're 25 years old or younger, you haven't lived during a time where there wasn't an American astronaut in orbit above you, which is pretty cool to think about because the environment is incredibly harsh.

5:40Jared Isaacman:You have a radiation environment. You have micrometeoid orbital debris. Those are like billions of bullets just whizzing around, tear through everything up there. The human body, human physiology does not like microgravity. So you have bone density loss, cardiovascular issues. We just did the first medical evacuation from the space station. So things happen there, but we have been learning. And where do you apply that next? You take it from low Earth orbit, which is probably the safest place you can be in an incredibly threatening environment. and you bring it down to the lunar surface. For all its scientific potential, I mean, we are going to have so many scientific instruments.

6:14Jared Isaacman:There are kids in college right now working on hardware that's going to be on the moon in the next couple of years. Its economic potential? Are we mining helium-3 on the moon? Are we 3D printing satellites for AI data centers? I sure hope so. And then I would just say it's the technological proving ground to get to Mars. Well, there's a lot of interest from investors in this. And I'm curious about the timeline for those things that you mentioned, because when a lot of people think about the space economy. Now they think of something like SpaceX or Starlink from SpaceX, but the things that you're talking about seem far off into the future.

6:45Jared Isaacman:Well, I would just say that anytime NASA undertakes and attempts to achieve the near impossible, we never go out alone. We bring everybody with us because it takes the contributions from across industry and academia and honestly, international partners. So 1960s, we had Boeing, we had Northrop, we had, I mean, Grumman built the lunar lander, we had McDonnell Douglas, and you still have many of those companies today, but then you have your new players like your Blue Origins, your SpaceX, Firefly, Intuitive Machines, lots of Rocket Lab, lots of good commercial companies. And what I would say is there is a real commercial space economy right now.

7:19Jared Isaacman:I mean, launch observation and communication, NASA's one customer of many. That's how you know it's real. We're going to put a huge demand signal out for building a moon base, 30 landers, dozens of rovers. I can't tell you who's buying the 31st. I can't tell you who's buying the next rover after NASA at that point. So we are still that first customer. But it's a heck of a demand signal in the right direction to ideally spark what becomes a lunar economy. So let's talk a little bit about geopolitics because in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, NASA's greatest competitor was the Soviet Union. Today, that really seems to have shifted to China.

7:54From your view, how advanced are Beijing's programs?

7:57Jared Isaacman:You know, I think we fool ourselves at times when we refer to, you know, the Chinese in various technological domains and call them a near peer. The reality is, in many cases, they are a peer. And I would say with respect to their space program, and it's hard because they're not as transparent as we are. We have our civil space agency, which is NASA, and then we have our Space Force, you know, and their job is to look out for the national security interests of the ultimate high ground that is space. In China, they don't draw a distinction. But what I will tell you in both of those categories, it's extremely impressive.

8:33Jared Isaacman:They are moving very, very fast. And what you think you know about what they're capable of doing in that domain from six months ago, they've already surpassed that by a couple generations. I mean, in a lot of ways, they are moving at SpaceX speeds. When we were competing with the Soviet Union, the budget that you had at NASA was roughly 4.5 % of total government expenditures. Right now, what, a quarter of 1 % of government expenditures? Can you compete with China with that level of funding? Absolutely. I mean, the president's budget request is more than every other civil space agency in the world combined.

9:10Jared Isaacman:Now, again, that's kind of hard to nail down perfectly with China because they blurred the lines with their military spend. And look, it's different times now. We knew nothing about the great frontier in the 1960s, other than that it was an effort worth undertaking. Today, between the$10 billion one-time plus-up that came through the Working Family Tax Cut Act, plus our budget and our appropriations, yes, we can return to the moon, we can build the moon base, and we can do the other things because we know a lot more today than we did then. Industry has evolved quite a bit, but it is an extremely close race.

9:45Jared Isaacman:I say it all the time. Winning, success or failure will come down to months, not years. Jim Bridenstine, the NASA administrator during President Trump's first term, has said that China is likely going to win. Is he wrong? I think he's wrong in that to say they would be advantaged. As I said, we are close. We've said we're going to land astronauts on the moon before the end of President Trump's term. The Chinese have said they will land their technotts on the moon before 2030. So that does come down to months, not years, if you look at the time frames. But we have an achievable plan, and we've been there before.

10:18Jared Isaacman:So we're very advantaged in building the moon base. We're very advantaged in next giant leap capabilities like nuclear. When it comes to the boots, yes, it's a closer race, but I have no doubt the best and brightest at NASA, we're not going to come in second place. After the break, NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman on getting lawmakers on board with space spending and on NASA's search for alien life.

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13:16You've got this amazing story. You come from the private sector. You built this business in your parents' basement in New Jersey. You're an entrepreneur. You're an executive. You're a pilot, a fighter pilot. You're an astronaut. You've moved really quickly in your career. All this to say, you don't really go at Washington speed. Do the political extremes that we have slow us down when it comes to competing with the rest of the world?

13:38Jared Isaacman:Well, I would just say I have one boss now, the president of the United States, and I couldn't have a better boss. There are a lot of stakeholders that have strong views. The nice thing is they all love NASA. So like right from the get go, you go to any of my hearings, whether it's a Democrat or Republican, there's strong bipartisan support for NASA's mission. Now, they all think we should do it differently. So bringing a lot of people together that have different views and getting them aligned around doing extremely hard things, I have some experience with that. And I'll tell you, it is a lot of my time trying to get everybody aligned.

14:12Jared Isaacman:I think having a competitor like China that is moving incredibly fast is helpful at clearing out needless bureaucracy and delays and things that impede progress, right? And that's working. Now, if you don't take an active role, if you are not hard charging with a strong team, 18, 20 hours a day, if that's what it takes, yes, the pace of government moves slowly and it's not always aligned in the best interest of the mission. It might be aligned in the best interest of a congressional district or a particular vendor, but we are fixing that now. So what have you learned about how to make sure you get what NASA needs?

14:46Jared Isaacman:Well, I think being able to be a good communicator and tell the story, right? And that is what I've been doing. You know, to have a conversation with an important congressman, senator, an industry leader, and explain to them, imagine what it was like when you saw Artemis II going on the far side of the moon, that special moment. You're sitting with your kid, your grandkid or something. Now imagine the same thing when somebody's stepping foot off a land or on the moon, except it's a Chinese techonaut. What is that going to do? What message does that send to the world that says something is broken?

15:15Jared Isaacman:I tell industry, you know, get aligned right now. Everything you lobby for better be in the interest of America's national imperative of returning to the moon. Because if not, if we see the Chinese get to the moon before America is able to return, I'll be fired. I'll be at home watching on TV as all of you get hauled before Congress and have to explain where the hundred billion dollars went. So think about that every time you work against me versus putting your resources in the correct direction. How do they respond when you communicate like that? I think we're moving really fast now. It's working.

15:45Jared Isaacman:I think we're moving really fast now. It's working. I mean, we're adding missions. We're launching moon rockets now with frequency. Artemis 3 is up in 2027. And the world is going to be able to follow along in early 27 as we put robotic landers on the moon nearly monthly and start building that moon base. So talk a little bit about Artemis 3 because NASA's already working on that. What does success in that mission look like? Success in that mission, well, is going to be you're going to see three distinct, and the most powerful rockets in the world launch in quick succession. So you're going to see SLS, which is what launched Artemis 2.

16:18Jared Isaacman:That will launch. You will see New Glenn launch, which will put the blue Origin lander into low-Earth orbit. And then you're going to see Starship launch, which will put their HLS lunar lander in low-Earth orbit. So three massive launches in quick succession. And then you're going to see the Orion spacecraft rendezvous and dock with the blue Origin lander, test out the interoperability, detach, rendezvous, dock with the Starship lander, the SpaceX lander, in low-Earth orbit, test out the full-stack controllability, and then it's going to detach, come back, and land. And what that should tell us, it should teach us more about the Orion spacecraft.

16:53Jared Isaacman:It should build muscle memory about launching SLS, which is extremely complicated, 8.8 million pounds of thrust. You cannot get that wrong. And it's going to teach us a lot about our two landers, Blue and SpaceX. That data, no doubt, will result in hardware changes, software updates, procedural changes to permit in 2028 Artemis 4 to take the astronauts to the surface of the moon. So SpaceX is providing the human landing system, lunar lander, you mentioned, the HLS. Blue Origin has its lander too. How would you rate their readiness for these missions? Both Blue Origin and SpaceX have provided detailed responses back to NASA on their ability to meet our 2027 timeline for a low Earth orbit test of their landers.

17:35Jared Isaacman:They both are enthusiastic about it. First of all, they both know that this must be done. And by the way, so did everyone at NASA. So the NASA team wants to launch big rockets and start building muscle memory and get back to an iterative design approach. SpaceX certainly appreciates it. I mean, they basically are leveraging our playbook from the 60s of being hardware rich, fail fast, learn and inform the next one, and Blue Origin understand. So we're all aligned about what needs to happen in 27 in order to make 28 successful. If SpaceX does go public in the coming months, what does that mean for NASA specifically?

18:08What does it mean for investment in the lunar economy more broadly?

18:11Jared Isaacman:I will happily take every one of NASA's critical suppliers being incredibly well-capitalized. Space is expensive. Space is extremely hard. We know for sure that launch observation and communications has real commercial viability that NASA is one customer of many. You can get more value out than you put in. But beyond that, we don't know. So the fact that the private markets are going to fund this next evolution of a space economy with orbital data centers and AI satellites, that's awesome. What about an update on just getting the top talent to NASA right now? It was a different approach in the 1960s and the late 50s.

18:53Because we were the only game in town. Exactly. You were the only game in town. And certainly there were government contractors at that time. But now there's so much opportunity for young talent to go to places like Blue Origin, places like SpaceX. You can get equity. It pays more. How do you get them to come to work for you?

19:07Jared Isaacman:First and foremost is you got to just inspire the next generation. They got to want to grow up and work for NASA. Fortunately, that hasn't been too much of a problem for us. We had 200 and some odd thousand internship applications this past year. We took the top 1%. So that's good. And then you launch missions like Artemis 2, Artemis 3. You put astronauts back on the moon. You build a moon base. You launch a nuclear powered octocopter to Saturn's moon of Titan in 2028 or a nuclear spaceship. That's a good way to inspire people to grow up and want to contribute. But how do you get them to want to come to NASA when you don't have the big equity appreciation like you have from industry and such?

19:41Jared Isaacman:That means we need to work on what no one else is doing. And that was certainly the case in the 60s when we were the only game in town. Not always the case today. We build big rockets. SpaceX builds big rockets. SpaceX equity goes off the charts. NASA doesn't have any equity to go off the charts. So what does that mean? We have to recalibrate constantly at NASA to do the near impossible with no company, with no other government agency, what no other nation is capable of doing. That's why we're working on nuclear power and propulsion. I put the model on the president's desk in the Oval Office of SR-1 Freedom.