Weekend Listen: FIFA’s Jill Ellis on the the World Cup

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2:32Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts, radio, news. If Jason and I wanted to make an investment in soccer, what's your pitch? Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean, right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China in terms of revenue. So for the Women's World Cup, it'll be a billion in revenue for next summer. And for the Men's World Cup, you're probably talking upwards of four to six billion, I would say, in that range. So, yeah, I mean, the numbers are big, but those are the numbers that go back into the sport.

3:07Welcome back to The Deal. I'm Jason Kelly. And I'm Alex Rodriguez. All right, Alex, coming up on the show, Jill Ellis. She is the chief football officer of FIFA, meaning she's one of the chief architects of the global game of soccer. Also, not for nothing, she won a couple of World Cups in 2015 and 2019 as the head of the U.S. women's national team. The World Cup, even if you wanted to escape it, you couldn't. And I haven't. I'm down in Miami. I mean, it is everywhere, and I cannot wait to dive into the numbers of what FIFA represents. And all eyes are going to be what happens next in the business of soccer.

3:42Coming up, Jill Ellis.

3:48Jill Ellis, FIFA's chief football officer. You know, Alex, we love to make this show timely. What is more timely than talking to the chief football officer of FIFA on the eve of the World Cup? So let's start there. How are you feeling about this World Cup? I mean, excited. I think what I've learned over time, whether either competing in them or watching them, is there's always a lot of controversy. It always feels like a three-ring circus kind of getting into there, but once the games kick off, it's magical. So excited. Obviously, I'm from the U.S., so it's exciting to have a World Cup back here on the shores of America.

4:22So I think it's going to be brilliant. You're feeling it down in Miami, aren't you? Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, I think for the first time, Joe, I was born in New York, but I've been in Miami around 40 plus years. And I think soccer right now could be the number one, if not the number one sport, the number one kind of conversation and narrative around. I mean, you got Beckham, you have Messi, you have the championship. And there's so many people, it's a multi-pot. And I guess my question to you, I'd have to say FIFA, I'll be throwing the coin flip. I'm really excited about it. But sell me the sport.

4:55Like if it was an investment, obviously I'm into women's sports with the W. I'm into men's sports with the NBA team with the Wolves. If Jason and I wanted to make an investment in soccer, what's your pitch? Well, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean, you always hear, obviously, you've got American football, baseball, but it's played everywhere. So I think you've got an immediate global audience. There's not a bigger audience for it than obviously the World Cup. I mean, even the Women's World Cup, 2 billion viewers in 23. So you've got probably the most global sport out there. And in the US, it's trending.

5:23I mean, I think it's becoming probably the largest participation sport amongst youth. So you've now got a whole generation of people playing it. You've got established professional leagues here. I mean, 30 plus teams in the MLS, obviously the Women's League. So it's not just emerging anymore. It's very much here. There's a baked in fan base. You've got an educated fan base now. You've had success. You know, obviously the women's teams had a lot of success on the global stage. Listen, I think it's a can't-miss sport, and I think people that are engaging in sport, and especially in America where we make it something that it's a can't-miss, it's such an exciting sport.

5:58I mean, there's nothing like the last five minutes of a soccer game. You mentioned, Jill, the three-ring circus of it all, and I mean, it may be a 12-ring circus at this point in this lead-up. We're talking to you just a few weeks before it all kicks off, and everybody's talking about something. I recently talked with your colleague, Johnny Infantino, about ticket prices. People are worried about visas. People are worried about who's going to play. Like, from your job perspective, like, what do you worry about in this tense lead up to the matches actually getting played? I mean, I certainly think it's, you know, you want to have full stadiums.

6:33Safety is always something when you think about massive global events that you want to make sure that those things are in place. But ultimately, it's getting the teams here, getting the stars here. once you know again we had the club world cup last summer and there was a lot of debate and controversy about is this the right event as soon as the matches kick off the fans are in the stands people gravitate towards that and it plays out and i think that's as a former coach as well you also know there's always the anticipation for that first whistle that first moment and then once it happens i think people settle into it but you know i think one of the things that people have talked about about this world cup is we now got 48 teams it's the largest world cup ever.

7:11It's going to be, you know, countries, debutantes here. It'll be, you know, are the games going to be competitive? And I think that's going back to my early comment about this sport being truly global is yes. I think on any given day, you're going to see, you know, one of the minnows beat the giants. And that's kind of what the exciting thing about this sport is you've got such a, well, the whole world really participating. Give us an idea of some of the numbers as far as how many people around the world would watch these events, like the last two championship games, for example? And what kind of revenue would you say it generates?

7:46Well, I think the last World Cup, and obviously that was Qatar, I think it was 5 billion globally, the Women's World Cup, 2 billion. 5 billion? Yep. 5 billion people. Yep. The Women's World Cup in 23 was 2 billion. We're projecting, you know, 2.5 to 3 billion. I mean, you know, it's broadcast. I mean, right now we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China. You know, the whole world really tunes in. In terms of revenue, so for the Women's World Cup, we're projecting this will be a$500 million increase. It'll be a billion in revenue for next summer in 2027. And for the Men's World Cup, you're probably talking upwards of$4 to$6 billion, I would say, in that range.

8:22So yeah, I mean, the numbers are big, but those are the numbers that go back into the sport. You know, for example, FIFA gives every participating country, that's 211. They get FIFA forward money. So the money gets redistributed back into the investment of the sport.

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11:00Jason, I have a question for you. I mean, you're the business person, expert here. When you hear Jill say numbers like a billion for the women, five billion, what is the comp that you've seen? There is no comp. I mean, that's the thing is there is no comp. And one of the interesting things, Jill, that as I've dug into this and spending time with Johnny on this topic is there is so much anticipation around this World Cup in North America because of the scale of it. And, you know, one of the things and I would love to talk a little bit about accessibility and ticket prices because I asked Johnny this question and he gave me a statistic, which you've got to keep me honest here, Jill, when I repeat it, which is this is going to blow your mind.

11:41The previous two World Cups, you know, people request tickets and there were 50 million ticket requests for the last two combined. For this one World Cup, this one that's coming up, 500 million ticket requests. So 10x the last two. So I guess my question to you, Jill, on that is with that sort of demand, how do you manage the supply? Like, what are the conversations you guys have inside of FIFA? Because you have to manage the economics completely differently with that sort of demand. Well, you know, in fairness, there's a whole team that manages this event, right? So we have a whole team behind it.

12:20But, you know, the dynamic ticket pricing is very real. You know, I think that's the other thing. FIFA's been taking a lot of hits about the ticket pricing. But the reality is the demand is so big that, you know, you can't control all the resale and all these types of things. But, you know, internally, it's they have to keep a lot back, obviously, for partners. How do you eke it out? How do you make sure that the demand is there? I mean, we still got certain games that I think we're trying to push and to sell. But they I mean, they have a whole branch of ticketing experts that go in there and look at everything.

12:51I mean, even when you map out where you want teams to play, right, who do you want in what venue? I mean, we're doing this currently right now with the Women's World Cup. We haven't released the schedule because we're looking at the size of the stadiums. Where do you want teams playing? to maximize revenue. So yeah, this strategy happens years in advance, for sure. That sort of demand, I'm turning this back on you. I mean, can you fathom that sort of demand? I mean, you have a couple of pretty popular teams, but like that level, it's hard to fathom. I wish I can only dream. Well, and we're getting hit for, you know, ticket prices, but you're right.

13:25I mean, the demand is so high that it drives the markets. And so with that sort of demand, Jill, one of the things that comes to mind for me is How do you factor that in on the sporting side, whether it is thinking about the matchups, thinking about which teams and which countries are going to be the dominant storylines? How do you maximize that as a business? How do you lean into it on the sporting side? Well, it's certainly, I mean, you know, we're playing in massive stadiums, but if you look next summer in Brazil, there's 60 ,000, 70 ,000 seat stadiums. I mean, which for the women's game is massive and it's a heavy lift.

13:58So it's exactly that. It's who do you want playing where? Obviously, there's not ultimate control because it's a draw and it's a random draw. But in terms of where teams play, making sure that, you know, South Korea is playing in L.A., you know, they've got an amazing player there in Sun. And so making sure they're on the West Coast. And so it's looking at location, population, and obviously general interest. I mean, you know a team. So, for example, last summer, it didn't matter where you put Real Madrid. Real Madrid will sell out almost anywhere. In the Club World Cup. In the Club World Cup, anywhere.

14:27And there's certain teams. I mean, Colombia has a phenomenal – every time you see the U.S. play Colombia in the U.S. on the men's side, it's full of yellow jerseys. Obviously, Mexico will be playing in Mexico. But there's – I mean, there's just an immense amount, especially because we're such a melting pot. I mean, there's going to be a large, large following that will travel, you know, and that's the other thing you think about. What fans will travel? You know, the Scottish fans will come. They'll travel. I mean, there's just some amazing fan bases. Jason, we have crazy fans in America. Now, in Miami, I'm really feeling it.

14:56There's a very European feeling in Miami. Now, they start partying at 6, 7 o 'clock in the morning. So I guess my question is, who are some of the craziest, most rabid fan bases, if you had to say a few? Listen, the Latin American market is phenomenal. I mean, you know, Argentina bring amazing fans. Colombia the same. I mean, I think those fans, I mean, they don't stop the entire game. Moving their arms, singing, I mean, it's nonstop. And that's what's going to be really cool for, I think, the U.S. fans to experience is, you know, we're kind of like a golf clapping kind of fan base compared to the rest of the world who are just, you know, rabid for 90 minutes.

15:31But, yeah, I mean, the South American fans are brilliant. I mean, listen, my mom was Scottish. God bless her. Those fans are, they're crazy. They will be probably starting at 6 a.m. And then you actually add to that because tailgating is not a thing in Europe or the rest of the world. You now add that you're going to open up potentially the stadium earlier. I mean, I think it's going to be crazy. They have marches to stadiums. That's really big things in this world. Well, and that entertainment piece, I think you'll appreciate this, Alex. It is so fascinating to me because, and Jill, again, keep me honest here, like it does feel like FIFA as a whole is leaning very much into the sort of entertainment aspect of sports.

16:09I think about what you guys do in Minnesota. I mean, that's just kind of table stakes. But soccer, it feels like, is learning a lot about how to build around the match. Is that fair? Yeah. I mean, I listen. We have offices in Miami now. And, you know, in fairness, Gianni's spent a lot of time now going to American sports. We went to an Orlando basketball game. You know, the idea of the players coming out one by one, being introduced. We did that last year in the Club World Cup. So there's a lot of learnings just that sport as entertainment, you know, I think is very real. I mean, you know, last year we were walking around stadiums and just seeing the amount of premium hospitality.

16:44You don't see that in Europe. You don't see that in South America in terms of just space. So I think, you know, we're learning a lot, you know, hydration breaks that you can actually commercialize now. I mean, there's all kinds of different things. You know, one of the things he loved was the fitness cam, the dance cam. I mean, these are things that in Europe, they're very traditional because the game is the focal point. and nobody gets distracted by anything else. Whereas I think in America, we're used to having a show around the show kind of thing. Also, I can just imagine, Joe, the social impact, the social media, the connectivity around the world.

17:15There's just massive, those numbers. But Jason, I'm also wondering the economic impact to a city like New York. Yeah. Those numbers have to be bonkers. And I'm assuming, Joe, that those fan base we just talked about travel impacts, right? Yep, very much so. And they travel well. Yeah, I mean, Jason, I don't know if you want to speak to that, but... No, I mean, I think this is one of the big question marks around this World Cup is we got a little bit of a preview of it, to your point, from the Club World Cup. Some good, some bad, you know, in terms of like access to the stadiums and, you know, can people get there?

17:46Can they travel there? You know, there's been a lot of talk about how much it's going to cost to get to MetLife. I mean, these are the kinks that definitely are being worked out that probably, I mean, certainly in the last World Cup in Qatar, you and I were in Doha together and actually spent some time talking about sort of these mega events. Everything was very, very contained. You could go to multiple matches in a day in different stadia. Here, it's much more spread out. I think these are big questions that we actually won't know until the matches really get underway, right? Correct. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, again, I think some events are still selling.

18:19How much fans will travel? I mean, obviously, visas issues coming into the country, I think, you know, we're trying to mitigate those as much as possible. But sometimes people's hesitation, I mean, we saw it last year, CONCACAF hosted their tournament. And, you know, at the time, people were uncertain about going to the stadiums. But I think the Club World Cup showed last year that, you know, when you get there, it is a great event. It's a safe event. But I mean, there's nothing quite like coming and seeing you experience it with the Baseball World Cup countries, that national pride. There really isn't anything quite like it.

18:50Yeah, it's almost like 10 to 1 to a regular game or even a playoff game. Because, for example, in Miami, I had a very much of a European soccer field where there was like concerts going on five, six hours before the game. And people were chanting and they had their flags. And it's just a very patriotic theme that is hard to describe unless you're there. So it's interesting in talking to you, Jill, even for the past little bit about how fluidly you move in your job and obviously based on your experience between the men's game and the women's game. It is not at all hyperbole to say you've been a chief architect of the women's game globally and certainly in this country.

19:33Where are we in that journey? You know, I mean, I know we're very focused on the World Cup, the Men's World Cup this summer, but there'll be one next summer for the women. How would you describe the state of the women's game? I mean, I think it's, you know, the signals are out there, right? We're seeing attendances go up. I mean, I think the Denver NWSL team, it was 62 ,000, 63 ,000. So you're seeing a lot of these amazing signals, you know, the Women's World Cup next year. And so, yes, I straddle both, but obviously have one eye on next summer as well, because, you know, this will be the first.

20:06I mean, it was 500 million, I think, they made off of the last one. Now we're looking at a billion and 100 percent of that money will be reinvested in the women's football, which is huge. But we're also seeing the ecosystem grow. We're seeing now club championships for global club championships for women like we have on the men's side. We're seeing professional leagues become more stable in terms of attendance investment, even internally in FIFA. It used to be that everything, and this was true, I think, in a lot of sports, you sell the men's game, the women's game was an add-on. You sell this, it was an add-on.

20:34Now we're unbundling rights. We've just got the most, the highest media deal ever for next summer's World Cup, where Netflix is paying for a one-month tournament, which is incredible numbers. So we're suddenly seeing this unbundling, unpackaging, because I think it can stand alone.

20:54Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds, and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called Generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R &D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins, or the S &P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public, you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and build a one-of-a-kind index.

21:34You can even backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash market. Add paid for by Public Holdings. Brokered services by Public Investing, member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, SEC Registered Advisor, crypto services by ZeroHash. Sample prompts are for illustrative purposes only, not investment advice. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Running a small business takes everything you've got.