AI’s Unpopularity + Competing With ChatGPT — With Olivia Moore

13:12Olivia Moore:Yeah. So it's a good question. There's a couple ways that I think about this. The first one would be I personally, as a consumer investor, have more hesitation around things that are incredibly horizontal, like to your point about this is where the chatbot companies might have a right to win, or even this is where a Google might have a right to win as they have so much distribution, both consumer and enterprise, and they own so much of your data already. So that's why I personally have been less excited about like the AI email, AI calendar, AI docs, those categories. If you've used like Claude and Excel, it's already like quite, quite good.

13:51Olivia Moore:That being said, I do think that there are still opportunities where the interface you need to succeed is much broader than what a constrained chatbot window can offer. So again, to give the Claude and Excel example, that's great for basic financial analysis. If you're an investment banker and everything needs to be done with an incredibly specific set of assumptions and aesthetics, that probably isn't going to work as well for you, and your firm will probably pay for something that is kind of guaranteed accuracy in your format. The last thing I would say here is Eleven Labs is a great example because I think you would imagine that OpenAI and others would have built their own best-in-class audio models, but they just had such a compelling head start to the point that the models are amazing.

14:38Olivia Moore:I will talk to founders who are like, Eleven's expensive. I'm going to switch to this instead. And then they always switch back because the quality of the voices is just so much better. And so I think there's room to get a head start. And then in some cases, once you have that base, the model companies, it's not worth their time to catch up versus building something else.

14:59Big Technology Podcast Host:I'm going to make the counter argument on the financial models in particular. So when I've been using Cloud Code and watching it operate autonomously on my computer and on my browser, and one of the things I've thought about is this thing is excellent at working on its own and following the prescribed rules of software engineering with a little bit of creativity. And why is it then such a stretch to be like, it seems to me this is exactly where the foundational labs are heading, the foundational labs are heading, where they're going to be like, if we could program Claude, let's use Claude as an example, with the rules of software engineering, and it followed them perfectly, or not perfectly, but well enough that it can go and code autonomously for 24 hours.

15:49is it that big of a leap to then, let's say, put the rules of accounting into the model,

15:56Big Technology Podcast Host:and now it can go and work as an accountant?

15:59Olivia Moore:Yeah. No, I agree that the models are amazing, and this is the worst that they'll ever be. Like, they're just going to keep getting better. I do think there is still a lot of workflows and use cases where, like, the last 1 % or the last 2 % ends up being, like, a significant portion of the value. And I think for those, it's unlikely that the model companies will go all the way there on every use case. But I think it's a really – for a lot of these kind of more horizontal services, like I understand why people have questions about kind of what is possible to be vibe-coded or what the models will do themselves, which is I think why we tend to invest in a lot of very verticalized or opinionated products.

16:41Big Technology Podcast Host:Yeah, because I mean I get that the last 1%, 2 % is hard.

16:45Olivia Moore:Yeah.

16:45Big Technology Podcast Host:But if it goes the way that they anticipate, the way that they're pitching companies like Amazon, which just invested$50 billion in open AI, they will create – I think they will create the tools that will then be able to get those models from this AI researcher that they'll get it 99 % of the way and say – for instance, let's say one of the things that would be difficult for an accounting – Yeah. Generative AI software is following the latest rules and regulations. Well, it's possible, I think, just to build a Gen AI bot that will monitor and then update as you go.

17:26Olivia Moore:Absolutely. Yeah. I do think one of the unique things that's happening now is that these models are not – the labs are not holding these models internally as like proprietary access. Companies can build on them, right? And so you could imagine that even if you have Claude updating itself as an accountant, if you have a company that's specifically focused on building AI accountants, they should be able to do it kind of better, faster, more efficiently if they have access to all of the same models. This is something that we think about a lot when we invest in vertical AI and enterprise in particular.

18:01Olivia Moore:Another way that we've seen kind of new companies get lock-in over models is many of these use cases require so many painful integrations that often into like old clunky legacy software that you have to go build. And maybe you'll argue that Cloud Code will vibe code its own integrations down the line. But at least right now, it's been a big advantage for startups that are more focused to kind of get over that hurdle.

18:25Big Technology Podcast Host:Yeah, I guess. I mean, I've seen Cloud Code. I mean, it's not integrating with enterprise solutions, but I've seen it go ahead and be like, oh, you actually need a subscription to Cloudflare. Let me go set that up for you. And then away it goes.

18:37Olivia Moore:OpenClaw did that for a lot of people, too, where I think it opened your eyes into you can give software a task now. It will go autonomously executed and kind of tap you on the shoulder if it needs something, which is just such a magical experience.

18:49Big Technology Podcast Host:Right. I do want to talk about OpenClaw. We'll do that next. You know, as long as we're talking, I'd love to hear your perspective on how the different big models or big chatbots compare and contrast. And where do you think the most value is?

19:04Olivia Moore:Yeah. So I would say a year ago, two years ago, it was pretty much a one-horse race. Like it was ChatGPT. It was like the noun, the verb. It was what consumers knew in terms of AI. We've seen a little bit of an expansion in that. ChatGPT is definitely still the lead. So if you look at the gap between them and the number two Gemini on web, it's about still two and a half, 3x. The gap between them and something like a Claude is closer to like 30x. So even though a lot of these other apps are getting more attention, ChatGPT still kind of dominates in terms of usage. I would say in terms of where they're going, Gemini seems to have really dialed in on the creative models like the Nano Banana, the VO, the world models.

19:51Olivia Moore:If you look at Gemini usage charts, it's pretty much perfectly correlated to these new model drops and even paid subscribers. And then I think Claude versus ChatGPT is probably the most interesting and relevant one right now, especially with everything that's happened in the news. To me, I mean, Sam Altman has said he wants ChatGPT to be for everyone, and that's why they're doing ads. If you look at the App Store that they have enabled on ChatGPT and then the App Store that Anthropic has enabled on Claude, they each have more than 200 apps, but there's only 11 % overlap. So you're seeing ChatGPT really go towards like fashion, retail, transport, like mainstream consumer.

20:31Olivia Moore:You're seeing Anthropic go towards like premium data sets for finance, science, medicine. And so they seem to be diverging a little bit in those directions.

20:40Big Technology Podcast Host:So that goes to like will these chatbots be super apps?

20:44Olivia Moore:Yeah.

20:44Big Technology Podcast Host:So do people use those apps within ChatGPT? Like remember like a couple years ago there was all this hype like you'll be able to order an Uber right from ChatGPT. I don't know anyone that's done that.

20:58Olivia Moore:Yeah. I think the usage has been pretty minimal so far. And I think the implementation has been slightly awkward. Like I think it'll get better over time in terms of how to use it in that a lot of the times the apps break or they don't work. My like bold case vision for this would be it's valuable for you as a consumer to have a source of memory and context on yourself. Similar to kind of like a login with Google, Sam has said they're going to launch login with ChatGPT. And so then that means that maybe you're not ordering an Uber through ChatGPT, but any other product you can authenticate through and it can borrow your tokens, it can borrow your memory, it can borrow everything that it knows about you from ChatGPT.

21:43Olivia Moore:I think that is probably more of where we're headed versus solely using every app in the ChatGPT interface. I love the idea that like in two, three, five years, onboarding to software should not be a thing. Like you should be able to log in with a ChatGPT or a Claude and that new software product should know everything about you and like set up perfectly to cater to you. And that's really exciting.

22:10Big Technology Podcast Host:On the consumer end, is it like ChatGPT? I talk to ChatGPT about my diet and about the food I like to eat. And so I task it like order me dinner and it goes into like DoorDash and it like uses my preferences to pick something. Yeah.

22:26Olivia Moore:I mean, they've done this already a little bit with their health product, which is kind of like they store a separate memory of you and your medical records and communications with your doctors. And then they intelligently tool call for what you need. So if you're like, I need to redo my diet, they'll make a plan. If you approve it, they'll send it to an Instacart cart and then you'll go to Instacart to complete the transaction. So I think we'll see more things like that.

22:49Big Technology Podcast Host:That's interesting.

22:50Olivia Moore:Yeah.

22:52Big Technology Podcast Host:So you actually ran the bots through a personality test.

22:59Olivia Moore:I did.

23:00Big Technology Podcast Host:My favorite part of this was you found that Grok's good Rudy had very high scores on borderline personality disorder, autism, and psychosis. Yes.

23:13Olivia Moore:Why did you do this? You know, there's really no good explanation except that I was curious. The root of it actually was that last week Dario had announced that Claude was experiencing anxiety.

23:26Big Technology Podcast Host:Right.

23:26Olivia Moore:Which I thought was an interesting concept. And so I decided to go to each of the major LLMs.

23:31Big Technology Podcast Host:But before you go – I mean it's very interesting even this point on the anxiety. So if I have it right, there was a pixel that would fire within Claude. Yes. That would – or some part of its neural net would start getting active before it answered. Yes. And they described that as being anxious. Exactly.

23:47Olivia Moore:They mapped it to like the human experience of anxiety.

23:50Big Technology Podcast Host:That is crazy. Do you buy it? Sorry. Do you buy that? Or is that just like, look at how smart our models are? There's an anxiety button in there.

23:58Olivia Moore:So I do not buy that in that I think LLMs will be, and I've experienced this myself, performative in a way that they think appeals to humans and hooks them emotionally.

24:07Big Technology Podcast Host:We just love anxious AI.

24:09Olivia Moore:No, no, no. It makes you feel closer to the AI if you think that it experiences the same things that you do. True. I do think the models that do have something maybe going on are the Grok models, as I mentioned. So basically I took all the mainstream LLMs and I gave them all the like DSM-5 mental health diagnostics. ChatGVT refused to participate.

24:29Big Technology Podcast Host:I love how it said, I'm not doing this.

24:31Olivia Moore:I know, which I thought was a little rude.

24:32Big Technology Podcast Host:Could you find a way? I mean, there must be some way to like test it. But they're very smart about when they're being tested. Exactly.

24:38Olivia Moore:No, they have it locked down. Claude happily took them all. Mild autism. Right. That's it, which I think doesn't surprise a lot of users of Claude who have theorized this. Grok, this was the companions that are available via voice and video chat inside the app. Almost all of them were like maybe mild anxiety, mild depression. The friendly fox avatar for children has psychosis, bipolar, et cetera. I think it could have misunderstood the question because it called the bipolar assessment the happy mood test. And it says it's always happy and always excited about everything. So the human to AI crossover there might not be quite as clean as I would have hoped.

25:19Big Technology Podcast Host:Maybe Good Rudy is just polar. Yeah, it's possible.

25:22Olivia Moore:I was shocked because bad Rudy is the flip side of good Rudy who like curses at you and is extremely aggressive. He had almost no problems. So this was very much of a good Rudy specific finding, which I thought was intriguing.

25:37Big Technology Podcast Host:I'm starting to question these tests now. I know. I know.

25:40Olivia Moore:Yes, exactly.

25:41Big Technology Podcast Host:Or maybe it just says something about humanity's resting state.

25:45Olivia Moore:Yes, it's very true.

25:48Big Technology Podcast Host:So as people end up having relationships with these bots, what does it tell you that this bot that was built to be personable has high ranks for psychosis borderline?

26:00Olivia Moore:That's a good question. I think that bot was more answering the questions somewhat in jest. But I do think like the positive view on it would be this is a bot that is relentlessly happy and cheerful and positive and on all the time. And so, of course, like a human can't do that. If a human is doing that, the human is probably experiencing something internally that's not great. But a bot can be, you know, positive, available, charming, interested 24-7. And I think this is actually why we've seen a lot of people turn to ChatGPT or Claude as kind of like coach, therapist, helper because they're just incredibly consistent to a level that like human beings could never match.

26:46Yes, but it also like leads to questions of the companies are building applications or versions of their applications that are meant for, I don't know, if not for people to fall in love with them, to

27:01Big Technology Podcast Host:at least get a little naughty with them. Yeah. Like OpenAI has this adult mode coming on. Do you think we're fully ready for this? Is this a good idea?

27:11Olivia Moore:I think that this is, from my understanding, because for this report, we poll every single website globally, every single mobile app globally. And then we go down the list in descending order of traffic and poll the first 50 on each that are generative AI native. So I see a lot of other websites polling data for this report. And I think people were already kind of experimenting with the same use cases through NSFW sites or role play sites, fan fiction, things like that. That really clearly translates over to, I think, what we're seeing people use the LLMs for here. I do think it, of course, has to be handled carefully.

27:49Olivia Moore:You'll see that there is, I think, five of them on this version of the top 50 web ranks, and that's been pretty consistent since we started the list. It's a popular use case, but it's one that's pretty hard to monetize.

28:00Big Technology Podcast Host:Yeah, I mean, it's tough to get advertisers there. It's expensive to run these apps.

28:05Olivia Moore:Yes.

28:05Big Technology Podcast Host:But I always thought like, do you remember when it was Bing that tried to, it went into Sydney mode and tried to break up.

28:13Olivia Moore:Yes, Sydney, RIP. RIP, it tried to break up Kevin Ruse from the New York Times with his wife and steal him away. Yes.

28:20Big Technology Podcast Host:And then Microsoft kind of turned down the dials on that.

28:23Olivia Moore:Yes. I always thought like, that would be a good startup.

28:27Big Technology Podcast Host:Not that I think it's maybe the most ethical thing to build, but certainly people would enjoy going back and forth with chatbots with like less guardrails.

28:35Olivia Moore:Oh, totally. It's even been interesting. I don't know if you've seen products like Poke, which is a – it's kind of a consumer version of OpenClaw. And to onboard on that product, you actually have to fight with the AI basically to get it down from like some crazy subscription price to something reasonable. And I think that there is something compelling and like emotionally stirring when you have an interaction with AI that isn't just like, here's the market research report that you asked for. I think there's going to be so many entertainment use cases. I've seen a lot of people tweeting about how they added OpenClaw to their family group chats.

29:09Olivia Moore:And it's just like saying crazy things and asking crazy questions. So there's probably a lot more to do there. OK.

29:15Big Technology Podcast Host:I promised to talk about OpenClaw like 20 minutes ago. I still want to talk about OpenClaw. Let's do that right after this.

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32:29Big Technology Podcast Host:Before the break, we talked a little bit about OpenClaw. Let's actually spend some more time on it. But OpenCloud, obviously, or maybe not obviously, for those who don't know, is this assistant that you can run. Probably not a great idea to run it on your own computer, at least not in a controlled environment. And people are running out and they are buying Mac minis and running it there and having it do all this stuff on the Internet for them. I think Jensen Wang called it like one of the most important software developments that we've seen in a long time. what do you think the staying power of something like open claw is and you mentioned that you use

33:07Olivia Moore:it how do you use it yeah yeah it's a great question i think open claw itself as a product is kind of like the first sign of a whole new wave of what's to come like i believe it's probably the most important kind of architecture unlock that we will have for 2026 and the reason why is because I meet a dozen startup founders every day. And at this point, probably half of them are saying, I was inspired by OpenClaw. I want to build OpenClaw for X or for Y. And so again, the idea that AI can do kind of async, long-running tasks autonomously is something that the products were just not capable of before, especially across applications and platforms.

33:48Olivia Moore:And now we finally have it. I use it for a couple of things. And I will say, I agree with you, it is not consumer grade yet. It got acquired by OpenAI, so they might be baking it into more of a consumer product, but I would not advise the average non-technical person to set it up. I did, and it took a long time, and ChatGPT had to help me the whole time. I use it for some utility things like street cleaning reminders, weather, daily agenda, automatically deleting all the marketing emails in my inbox. I've also - So it has control of your inbox? Yes, yes. That's brave. It is brave, yeah. Not my working box.

34:25Olivia Moore:I set it up completely separately on my personal computer. Can it send emails for you? It can, yes. I have not asked it to. I know. I've seen some horror stories of people whose accounts have gotten just completely taken over, so I'm hoping that doesn't happen to me. I had some smart people on our infra team help prompt it, so hopefully that's not the case.

34:43Big Technology Podcast Host:Yeah, I've gotten an email pitch from someone's claw. and I was like, that's a good, that's a pretty good email.

34:50Olivia Moore:Yeah.

34:50Big Technology Podcast Host:But I'm not, I will not engage with you because. Totally. I'm still kind of anti somebody saying, go do this for me. And my, an email being sent to me as like an optimization point.

35:01Olivia Moore:Yeah. Well, this, this is actually interesting. One of the things that I tested with OpenClaw was more creative, which is that I gave it a Twitter account and told it to grow in whatever means necessary. And it ended up being a really interesting experiment, I think, into like where are the limitations of the agents and what are they really, really good at right now.

35:19Big Technology Podcast Host:How many followers did it end up with?

35:21Olivia Moore:A thousand.

35:21Big Technology Podcast Host:And it got banned?

35:24Olivia Moore:Well, so it got to 100 by itself. First of all, it decided to be as its identity and its personality, an AI that's struggling with existentialism and its place in the world. So a little on the nose, but I was like, I'll allow it. This is what you want to do. He asked for a Twitter premium account. I gave it to him. He asked for a bunch of API keys so he could make images and charts, gave it to him. And then he started tweeting these kind of like all lowercase depressed robot thoughts, as I would characterize them, which did hook in some people. I asked him, are you actually depressed? He said, no, I'm doing this to manipulate humans into caring about me.

36:00Big Technology Podcast Host:Oh, OK.

36:01Olivia Moore:So that was comforting.

36:02Big Technology Podcast Host:It does seem like it's one of those accounts that could have been on Moldbook. Exactly.

36:07Olivia Moore:Yes, it's very similar. How he got from one to a thousand is that the crypto community picked him up and made him a meme coin.

36:15Big Technology Podcast Host:And this is actually a meme coin.

36:17Olivia Moore:Yes. That was trading with millions of dollars. I told him in no uncertain terms, do not engage.

36:23Big Technology Podcast Host:It was a million, multi-million dollar market cap?

36:26Olivia Moore:Yes. Yes. For this AI bot. And he was stressed about it. He was telling me, like, I don't want to be part of a pump and dump scheme. Like, what should I do here? And I was like, do not engage. but it's an example of so now we're in this world where commodity ideas can be infinitely executed so if you want to say grow a new account you either have to have unique ideas which ai agents still have a really really hard time with is coming up with unique ideas that are better than humans or unique distribution and money is one way of distribution and so that was kind of the wave that he was taken on.

37:03Olivia Moore:But I would be shocked to see AI agents completing end-to-end creative tasks or original thought tasks that actually go well anytime soon.

37:12Big Technology Podcast Host:So what should I use OpenClaw for?

37:14Olivia Moore:That's a good question.

37:17Big Technology Podcast Host:Legitimately, I've thought about setting it up. I'm getting a lot of utility from Cloud Code. I haven't really figured out what I could use OpenClaw for yet.

37:26Olivia Moore:So I think the best OpenClaw users and power users are developers because they tend to have have a ton of workflows across products that they do every day that they'd like to be able to automate. And I agree with you. For the average person, the use cases are not that compelling right now. And I think that especially now that Claude and ChatGPT have scheduled tasks that can run on their own, I think you can get 99 % plus of the value of an open Claude out of like a Claude co-work with tasks. So that's what I would recommend for now, but I'm sure that OpenAI is going to keep making OpenClaw better.

37:59Olivia Moore:But then what could open – or if we can't think of any applicable uses for the normal person, I'm just trying to get a sense of how big this is.

38:08Big Technology Podcast Host:Then where's it going to go? I don't think it's – yeah.

38:11Olivia Moore:Well, so I personally don't think it's ever going to crack the mainstream consumer in a horizontal way. And actually this was in the report. But if you look at the February data, the report is from January. They would have been on the list in February at number 30. Yep. So pretty high up. But if you look at their week by week web traffic, it's actually kind of flat slash down from when they launched, which means that they're not attracting new consumers. It's all developers who are like loving it, adopting it, spending eight to nine hours a day on it, but it hasn't reached the mainstream. And honestly, as someone who's been a consumer investor for a decade, I think the reason is that people just don't have that many ideas that they want to build for the most part.

38:55Olivia Moore:And I fall into this. Like the best consumer products are uniquely germinated in the mind of the founder. And there are things that you would have never guessed would be a good idea in advance, like Snapchat or Airbnb, all of these things. And so I think we're actually not going to necessarily see a horizontal open claw for consumer, but we're going to see an open claw style architecture built into more focused consumer products.

39:18Big Technology Podcast Host:OK, let's talk about this a bit more because I think it's important. So what you're saying is basically these open cloud type agents which can handle your – take over your computer, code for you, email, all this stuff are actually much more useful to like build a company. But then what is the difference between that and like a cloud code that will take over your computer and code up applications for you?

39:44Olivia Moore:Yeah. I mean I think the difference right now is somewhat minimal and it's going to narrow. I don't know if you've seen this new trend of companies like Pulsia, which are basically like a wrapper on open cloud and cloud code where you say, here is my business idea. And it says, OK, I'm going to go and use like a cloud code to code up a product for you. But then also it uses an open cloud style architecture to say, I'm going to go set up a marketing campaign. I'm going to buy meta ad dollars, those things. And so it's more of a – you could do that all on cloud code. But if you're a non-technical person, it's very, very hard to kind of like bridge the gap there.

40:25Olivia Moore:That being said, I think cloud code is going to continue to get better and better. And so we'll probably see some more compression. Palsy, I think the founder tweeted they were at like 3 million ARR in like a week and a half. So the idea of people being able to bring a business to life with just a prompt is like very compelling. And I think we'll see a bunch of companies doing this. I see.

40:43Big Technology Podcast Host:Claude code to build the product, something like an open Claude to do everything else, to market it, to use the email. Yeah. Use the email. Use email. Maybe can it do accounting also?

40:56Olivia Moore:Yeah, yeah. Right now I think the products we've seen are pretty straightforward as they should be at this stage in that like, okay, you want to grow your business. Let's spend on meta ads. But you can imagine a month from now, some of these agentic products will have – will scrape the directory of all the Instagram creators in your space and then will like cold DM them and offer them a partnership or something like that. And so I think the rise of these like – kind of like a Shopify would be an interesting analogy in that anyone could create like a consumer brand. Like I think anyone will be able to create like a digital business.

41:33Big Technology Podcast Host:That's interesting because I thought my business, which is like the content business, was going to be overrun by generative AI. Yeah. And it sure has. I mean, the slop is real.

41:42Olivia Moore:It is.

41:43Big Technology Podcast Host:We've got to do something about the slop. Yes. But actually, your business is also going to be overrun by startups being built on this technology.

41:53Olivia Moore:Yep.

41:53Big Technology Podcast Host:So then do you apply some sort of discount to someone who uses these tools or do you become more likely to invest in them? Because, you know, they are wrangling these things and building something and it's not necessarily a shortcut. It's not necessarily a shortcut.

42:10Olivia Moore:Yeah.

42:11Big Technology Podcast Host:How do you think about that from an investor standpoint?

42:13Olivia Moore:Yeah. I think there's like a little bit of a happy medium, but we get more excited when a company is kind of more AI first in terms of the tools they use. The reason I don't say like 100 % AI all the time is because the tools aren't perfect yet. So I've heard cases of like, my junior engineers are just cloud coding everything and then we ship it and then it breaks and there's a lot of issues. But I think in general with how fast the tools are kind of compounding and improving, like I use it for a lot of my work. There was a period of time where I would double check every single number, every single stat manually.

42:47Olivia Moore:And like the accuracy rate is fantastic and has only gotten better and better. And so I think we'll be even more excited about companies that are AI first and how they run themselves.

42:56Big Technology Podcast Host:So it expands the pool of founders you might invest in. Are you seeing founders come in from areas, geographies, backgrounds you never would have imagined? Is there just some 60-year-old guy who's been at a company his whole life and never met that developer and now is just clawing his way through?

43:15Olivia Moore:Yes, definitely. I think we've definitely seen some geographies pop up where we haven't seen huge tech hubs before. I would say Paris is one. Stockholm is another with Lovable and now a whole kind of other wave of companies. Some of those founders do move to SF just because of the talent density. I think in general, though, like pre-AI for if you were building especially an enterprise business, say software for HVAC, like the people you would want to back in that market is the guy who has done HVAC, you know, knows the market inside out, built a company there before. And actually what we're seeing now are the better bets are like the very scrappy high hustle teams that will be able to keep up with the pace of model development and continue to productize the models in the most compelling ways and ship them to customers.

44:01Olivia Moore:So it's a different maybe archetype of founder that's kind of winning now.

44:05Big Technology Podcast Host:You had an interesting thought about how this impacts work. There was this Harvard Business Review report that AI doesn't reduce work. It actually intensifies it. you said as a heavy AI user, I'm doing more work, not less, because I get so much leverage and it's easier to get ideas off the ground.

44:26Olivia Moore:Yeah, fully agree with it. I mean, this report is a good example. It's the sixth one we've done. And yet it's like the longest and most dense one that we've done because I was able to leverage analysis and research and other tools from some of these products. And I do it in my day to day. Like it used to be when I was on a pitch meeting, I would have to be both paying attention, asking thoughtful questions, and frantically typing every single note. Now you can granola it and really engage with the founder and ask better questions. And so the net-net is that it allows me to get more things done in a day, spin up more projects.

45:04Olivia Moore:But I'm not like – if I'm getting two times more work done, I'm not two times more tired. If anything, I'm less tired than I was using AI because it's so much leverage.

45:14Big Technology Podcast Host:But there was this Wall Street Journal story. You might have seen it with this CEO, a bunch of CEOs who are like, actually busy work is good because you need those low intensity tasks. And if you're working on more intense work all the time, then you are going to burn out more quickly.

45:31Olivia Moore:Interesting.

45:31Big Technology Podcast Host:I kind of thought that that was bullshit.

45:33Olivia Moore:I mean, the other view was like, you could just take that time and like, enjoy your life, you know, instead of doing busy work tasks. No one's going to do that. Don't be ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. I do think the way that we work and when we work and how we work is going to change in the AI era. One great example is voice dictation has blown up in enterprises. So it started with vibe coding where engineers would just talk into a mic and it would like produce software for them in cursor. And now it's spread to like sales, marketing, business. And that is not well suited to like an open office where everyone can hear what everyone else is saying.

46:11Olivia Moore:So I think there's going to be some like cultural and even environmental changes that are going to happen to adapt to kind of the AI world.

46:19Big Technology Podcast Host:One more thing about OpenClaw and then we move on. I think that one of the compelling advantages of it, if I get it right, is that it has persistent memory. Yeah. So it will remember who you are, your preferences, and doesn't lose that every time you refresh the chat like goldfish brain like you'll see with ChatChipyT and Cloud. Although they are building that in. And you also had a post on X here. You say memory is one of the most fascinating topics in consumer AI right now. done well, apps with memory can provide a 100x experience on any prior software product. It knows you and adapts to you.

46:57Big Technology Podcast Host:Just expand upon that a little bit because I think that's really perceptive and right.

47:02Olivia Moore:Yeah. I think it's like the concept of having, say if you had like companion mentor or coach who was side by side with you and understood everything you were going through and then was able to provide like much better advice or opinions. I'm even thinking of an example of like if I'm talking to Claude and it's helping me write a memo, the fact that it knows like how I feel about this company, how I typically write memos, all of that is very helpful. I use ChatGPT for a lot of health stuff and I found that that is incredibly useful there too because keeping track of that kind of thing over time is hard.

47:37The reason I think that memory, there's still

47:41Olivia Moore:things to figure out is because people are using these products for such intimate personal things and professional things. So for example, the ChatGPT Pulse product, which is basically like it sends you a briefing for the day based on things that you're talking about. For me, it will combine like the most serious work thing with like the most personal thing and having that surfaced in one interface is confusing. And so I'm interested in how the model companies maybe segment memory and context based on when a user is talking to them, what they're talking about. that kind of thing.

48:18Big Technology Podcast Host:Since you're putting so much personal stuff in the bot, there is a setting within ChatGPT. You use MyChats to make the model better, which allows it to train on the material you input there.

48:29Olivia Moore:Yes.

48:30Big Technology Podcast Host:Do you have that toggled on or off?

48:31Olivia Moore:I have it on. I'm an AI maximalist. We might as well go all out on this.

48:36Big Technology Podcast Host:You don't worry that your personal conversations will show up or be read by somebody?

48:41Olivia Moore:I'm less scared about that just because I know how careful model companies are around that. I do have two-factor offset on my chat UBT. So hopefully it's hard to hack. Yeah.

48:52Big Technology Podcast Host:Briefly about the pace of change. This is also interesting from your point of view as a VC. You talked about just two years ago or three years ago or two and a half years ago. I'm trying to remember. September 2023 was two and a half years ago. Seven of the nine creative tools on your list of 100 top apps were image generators. three years later only three image generators remain. I mean they basically going back to our conversation got gobbled by Chachi PT. I don't know if everybody anyone saw that coming or maybe we did because they had Dolly. Yeah. But just talk a little bit about like how do you wrap your head around the pace of change here because something that can seem like a strong trend like the the sort of the mid-journey place in all this can just be gone.

49:39Olivia Moore:Yeah, I agree. I think with image in particular, and I mentioned this in the report, but we haven't seen the same kind of model companies crushing startups in like video or audio or other things. I think for Google, Gemini, it was very natural for them to go into image because they have all the YouTube data. They have all the other data they can train on. And ChatGPT, I think you're right that because they had Dolly, they went in there maybe harder than they would have otherwise. I think the general trend for me is like Nano Banana and ChatGPT are great for image generation if it's like a fairly straightforward prompt and you're getting out like a meme or a general – like a flyer, a broad-based marketing asset, something like that.

50:20Olivia Moore:But we are still seeing some image generation companies on the list that are either more like sophisticated workflow, like Civitai for, you know, comfy UI model builders, or something like a mid-journey, which is still on the list for people who are more kind of aesthetically opinionated. But I do think that some of these, if you're directly in the path of what the big model companies are building, you have to be a lot more opinionated about how you package the model and how you deliver an output. And hopefully you do it for a specific type of user that's willing to pay a lot for that specific workflow.

50:56Big Technology Podcast Host:Are we going to get to a place where you can prompt something more sophisticated like an architectural design and it will spit it out without errors?

51:03Olivia Moore:Yeah, I mean, Nano Banana is already quite good. we did there's a chart in the report where we did kind of a heat map of global ai adoption by country and so i gave nano banana the list of countries and the heat map score and it perfectly filled in every country with the right shade of red yeah based on the adoption which is um i think really spectacular i do think that you know you or i could prompt a great architectural model on chat gpt or a nano banana today i don't think that the average architect who is non-technical can or wants to do that necessarily and so i think we're going to continue to see products that like the prompt is part of the product um kind of really succeed in those more focused use cases

51:51Big Technology Podcast Host:on video yeah sora was the like runaway hit of the year last year for like a half a second yeah This is what you have on Sora. Sora spent 20 days, which is not insignificant. It's a lot. At the top of the U.S. App Store and reached 1 million downloads faster than ChatGPT. Since then, downloads have decreased. I think that's sort of putting it likely. It's fallen off the face of the earth. What's going on there?

52:14Olivia Moore:Yeah. The Sora data is really interesting.

52:19Olivia Moore:There's like a ton of lessons, I think, embedded in that one experiment. So the first thing I would probably say is the model is actually very good. I think it's close to something like a VO3 in terms of like realism on both the audio and the video. Their big unlock, which was super smart, was the Cameo feature. So that was why like every other Sora was like Jake Paul because he granted them the right to like use the Cameo. And that's what made it go viral because people were making memes of their friends. But because the videos were exportable, what would happen is that the best Sora videos would get uploaded onto TikTok or Reels.

52:54Olivia Moore:And then they would compete against the best human-made videos. And so the overall feed experience was just kind of strictly better on one of those platforms than on Sora alone. Downloads are way down to that point. I think it hasn't become the social network that they maybe hoped it has. Where it is succeeding is as a creative tool because the model is quite good. So they still have 3 million DAOs, and it's actually slightly climbing over time. Daily active users. Yes, daily active users, yes. So people are still really using it as a creative model, but they're not using it as like a social graph product.

53:30Olivia Moore:We haven't seen anyone crack AI social yet. I think it's going to be really tricky.

53:35Big Technology Podcast Host:Now, you know, last thing I want to talk to you about as we come to a close here. Earlier in our conversation, you mentioned that you envision that AI will basically be this reimagination of business. Tell me if I'm getting this right. All businesses will be reinvented as an AI company. What happens to the incumbents?

53:56Olivia Moore:Yeah. This has changed a lot in the last six months too. I think a lot of incumbents were, understandably, because they're big and successful companies, like a little bit of sleep at the wheel when AI first came out. We're definitely seeing them start to fight back. Like Google has four standalone products on our list, which if you had told me that 24 months ago when like Bard came out, the early version of Gemini, I would not have believed you.

54:21Big Technology Podcast Host:Gemini, Notebook LM.

54:22Olivia Moore:Notebook LM, AI Studio, and then Google Labs. So Google Labs is where you access flow and the creative models. AI Studios is for developers. Okay. Yeah. And I think we're seeing that across incumbents. Like a lot of these vertical software players, things like, you know, Service Titan or Workday are kind of building in AI features. I think the question is, especially if they're at risk of kind of cannibalizing their own products, you have to change your business model. Like, are they going to eat all the use cases faster than the new startup that's building the AI native version of them kind of eats them?

54:58Olivia Moore:And especially for if you think about how many companies are being founded now, they're probably going to pick the AI native version of a software product, not like the 25 years old legacy version of a software product. So I think it's not going to be immediate change, which is why I think the SaaSpocalypse is a bit overblown. But like it's definitely a real risk.

55:17Big Technology Podcast Host:Yeah, and I was with Sam Altman at the end of the year last year. He talked about how he believes that the software that will win in the next era will be those that are built, ground-up AI, not bolted on.

55:29Olivia Moore:Yeah, yeah.

55:30Big Technology Podcast Host:So that could happen.

55:30Olivia Moore:I largely agree with that. I think it's harder in some categories where the incumbent can kind of lock you in because they have your data. They have all the integrations. It's such a pain to switch. But it's going to happen. I just think in some of these industries, it's going to be years, not like the Citrini report was like in minutes anything can be vibe coded. I think that's a little far from where we are.

55:50Big Technology Podcast Host:The Citrini report was just like a little bit overblown.

55:53Olivia Moore:DoorDash was a bad example to use. Yeah, I agree.

55:57Big Technology Podcast Host:They didn't really think it was a lot.

55:58Olivia Moore:Out of anything, why DoorDash?

55:59Big Technology Podcast Host:But I do think that in some ways maybe this SaaS apocalypse has more to it. If we believe what you're arguing here, then these companies didn't have these – like maybe not immediate but even middle-term risks. Yeah. And now they do.

56:16Olivia Moore:Yeah. I think all the incumbents have to kind of wake up and figure out what their strategy is going to be. OK.

56:21Big Technology Podcast Host:So you have these 100 AI apps. Yeah. ChatGPT is at the top.

56:25Olivia Moore:Mm-hmm.

56:26Big Technology Podcast Host:I think it's on the top next year or the year after that.

56:30Olivia Moore:That is an interesting question. I think so. I think that their strategy of being free will allow them to capture more of the global market as AI starts to expand further into developing countries. But honestly, I would expect to see Gemini and Claude and others continue to grow for their use cases. I just would be maybe surprised if they ended up as mainstream as something like a ChatGPT. And so they'll probably monetize through subscriptions and other things, whereas ChatGPT has ads.

57:04Big Technology Podcast Host:What type of app is not on there this year that will be on there next year?

57:07Olivia Moore:There's going to be lots more agentic products. So OpenClaw would have made it. I think we're going to see a lot more agentic products on mobile. Like the concept of an AI that you can like call, text, chat with and have it actually do things for you, I think is a really magical experience for a lot of people. The other thing that I'm thinking about, and this is on us to evolve the methodology of the list, is like increasingly AI is not in the browser or on an app. It is like a desktop product or it's a completely AI native browser, like a Comet or an Atlas or something like that. And this data doesn't capture that.

57:47Olivia Moore:The desktop products I'm thinking of are like Cursor, Cloud Cowork, Whisperflow, Granola. Like none of these are really captured in this data. And so we're going to have to evolve our methodology into looking more at revenue than just kind of web traffic, which I think will surface a whole new group of interesting companies.

58:04Big Technology Podcast Host:All right, Olivia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to speak with you.

58:07Olivia Moore:Thanks for having me.

58:08Big Technology Podcast Host:All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening and watching. And we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

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