In short
Anthropic’s “Mythos” model and whether it’s a real breakthrough or marketing; rising violence and threats targeting AI-related infrastructure and leaders; “token maxing” competition at Meta; plus a brief discussion of Stanford’s “meta harness” concept and the Medvi telehealth story.
Guests
Ranjan Roy of Margins (returning co-host). No other named guests appear in the transcript.
Guest backgrounds
Ranjan Roy is a technology/AI industry commentator focused on business and product economics (Margins). He discusses AI models through a communications and incentives lens.
Key claims
Mythos may be hype: thousands of “high severity” vulnerabilities reportedly based on only 198 manual reviews; some findings (e.g., FFMPEG) are not critical/exploitable; Linux kernel issues reportedly can’t be exploited due to defenses. PR timing (the “sandwich” email story) suggests coordinated narrative-building. Violence against AI is linked to backlash against data centers and compute expansion; examples include shots fired at an Indianapolis councilman with a “no data centers” note, and alleged Molotov threats against Sam Altman. Token maxing is framed as engineers competing to burn the most tokens.
Notable examples
“Project Glasswing” consortium (e.g., Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Alphabet, Linux Foundation); “no data centers” shooting; alleged Molotov at Sam Altman’s home; Medvi’s claimed $1.8B sales trajectory using many AI tools; Stanford “meta harness” showing harness changes can yield ~6x benchmark gaps on the same model.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODiscussion on Mythos Model
1:50 to 2:55
Analyzing whether Anthropic's Mythos model is genuine innovation or marketing hype.
“Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format.”
Cybersecurity Implications of Mythos
2:55 to 3:50
Exploring the model’s impact on cybersecurity and the potential risks involved.
“And it kind of goes to the heart of the matter because the question is, is this good branding really most of what we're seeing?”
Critique of Marketing and Hype
3:50 to 5:54
Discussing the potential exaggeration in claims made about the Mythos model.
“Cybersecurity researchers and software makers worry that artificial intelligence is becoming so good at exploiting vulnerabilities that it could cause widespread online disruption.”
Project Glasswing and Communication Strategy
5:54 to 7:40
Evaluating the communication strategy behind the launch of the Mythos model.
“And I think there are some good arguments for and against.”
Concluding Thoughts on Mythos
7:40 to 14:00
Summarizing perspectives on the Mythos model and its implications for AI.
“Oh, it is the Greta Oro butterfly that has wings that are transparent and you only see the veins as opposed to actually having the traditionally colorful wings of a butterfly.”
The Mythos Email Incident
14:00 to 16:12
Discussion about the coordinated PR efforts surrounding the Mythos email incident.
“Did you hear, like I think you had mentioned, but basically there's this story going around how Mythos broke out of containment and emailed one of the researchers while they were on lunch eating a sandwich.”
Skepticism Towards AI Announcements
16:12 to 18:16
Exploration of skepticism regarding AI announcements and the nature of PR in tech.
“I think that story hit because it's such a human story.”
Anthropic's Strategy and AI Development
18:16 to 22:06
Insights into Anthropic's strategy for advancing AI technology and market positioning.
“Because that meant when you see stuff that perfectly coordinated in terms of timing, like again, 20 tweet thread, 12 tweet thread within a few minutes of each other.”
The Value of AI Products
22:06 to 24:11
Discussion on whether AI products like Mythos are revolutionary or overhyped.
“I kind of, okay, so I have always had, I mean, anyone who sells investment advice at a price, it's never made sense to me because if it was so good, you would just use it for yourself and not need to sell it.”
Super Apps and API Competition
24:11 to 28:03
Analysis of the tension between first-party and third-party APIs in the AI space.
“And when I keep thinking of everything in that framing, you start to see everything pushing what is the best way to actually get to IPO quickly.”
Show all 23 chapters
The Super App Debate and Predictions
28:03 to 30:10
Exploring the concept of Super Apps and predictions for Anthropic and OpenAI's models.
“some it's not like a full intrinsic conflict between those two they could just be different business lines but there is a bit of there's tension certainly between those two and uh i I also, though, I hate Super App.”
Understanding the Meta Harness
30:10 to 31:28
Delving into the concept of the 'meta harness' as a controlling layer for AI workflows.
“Like we'll really have to see what this model looks like and how it feels when we use it.”
Preparing for Break and Upcoming Topics
31:28 to 33:33
Transitioning to a break while previewing upcoming discussions on violence towards AI and token maxing.
“actions are taken, how data moves around, how outputs are fed back into a system.”
Rising Violence Against AI Infrastructure
36:41 to 42:00
Discussing the alarming trend of violence against AI infrastructure and its implications.
“And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast, Friday edition.”
The Slowdown of Data Center Growth
42:00 to 43:20
Explore the challenges affecting data center construction amidst changing geopolitics.
“But there's no doubt in my mind, AI is going to be front and center.”
AI as a Villain in Public Perception
43:20 to 44:30
Discuss how AI's portrayal affects its acceptance and public opinion.
“There's not been a compelling story about how this is good for you and all the people kind of front and center are telling you that half of jobs are going to be gone.”
Data Center Moratoriums: State-Level Pushback
44:30 to 46:30
Analyze the implications of Maine's statewide data center ban and its potential effects.
“And in fact, as I was doing my research and writing about this today for big technology, I found this story.”
Comparing Social Media and AI Regulation Risks
46:30 to 48:40
Examine the contrasting challenges of regulating social media and AI technologies.
“But you can also be in a situation where like you use AI and you like it and you also got fired because, you know, your boss thinks that they can do the same work with like three employees instead of 17.”
The Medvi Success Story: Innovation or Deception?
48:40 to 51:10
Delve into the controversial rise of Medvi and its implications for AI in business.
“And I'm saying they're likable to people who already like AI.”
The Revenue Reality Check for Medvi
51:10 to 56:00
Critique the inflated revenue claims and the ethical concerns surrounding Medvi.
“There's been talk about, is there going to be somebody that builds the$1 billion one-person company?”
AI and the Potential for Scale in Illegal Markets
56:00 to 58:05
Explore how AI could revolutionize illegal markets, specifically drug dealing.
“But I mean, again, yeah, it's how they framed it.”
Token Maxing at Meta: A New Form of Status
58:05 to 1:01:31
Discuss the phenomenon of 'token maxing' at Meta among employees.
“The ranking set up by a meta employee on its intranet use company data, measure how many tokens employees are burning through, dub Claudeonomics after the flagship product from Anthropic, the leaderboards.”
Anthropic's Revenue Growth and Market Dynamics
1:01:31 to 1:02:32
Analyze the implications of Anthropic's rapid revenue growth to 30 billion ARR.
“So first of all, I've, I've heard now from multiple people that this is something that happens in many companies.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Anthropics' big new mythos model is here. Is it real or is it marketing? Violence breaks out against AI, and engineers at Meta and elsewhere are competing for who can burn the most tokens. That's coming up on a Big Technology Podcast Friday edition right after this.
0:15Ranjan Roy:This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. If you want to see where enterprise AI is actually headed, Knowledge 2026 is the place to be. It's ServiceNow's annual conference, May 5th through 7th in Las Vegas, where thousands of business and tech leaders come together. Expect headline keynotes from ServiceNow chairman and CEO Bill McDermott, real stories from companies running AI at scale, and major partnership announcements turning AI ambition into actual business results. I'll be there in person sitting down with some of the most influential voices in the space, and we'll be bringing those conversations back to you here on Big Technology.
0:53This episode is brought to you by True Diagnostic. I've been trying to get more intentional about my health lately. Not just how I feel day to day, but what's actually going on under the hood. That's why I checked out True Diagnostic. They offer at-home tests that measure your biological age. Not just how old you are, but how your body is aging on a cellular level. Their True Age test looks at things like your pace of aging, organ system health, and even risk factors tied to lifestyle, giving you real data to act on. What I like is that it's not guesswork. You can track changes over time and see how things like sleep, diet, or exercise are actually impacting your body.
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1:53Ranjan Roy:Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. Oh, we have a great show for you today. We're going to talk about whether Mythos, the new model from Anthropik, is real or marketing or maybe some combination of both. We're going to talk about this new surge of violence that's breaking out against AI and why it should probably be taken more seriously. We'll also talk about this now infamous 1.8 billion one or two-person startup called Medvi and whether that heralds a new era or is just a bigger scam than we're used to.
2:24And we're also going to talk about token maxing, which is the act of basically burning as many AI tokens as you possibly can. And maybe that's good or bad. I don't know. We'll figure it out at the end. Joining us as always is Ranjan Roy of Margins. Ranjan, welcome back. Good to see you. Happy to be back.
2:41Ranjan Roy:And yeah, Mythos is here. What a week to come back. Mythos is here. Yeah, Mythos is here. The people have clamored for Ranjan's return. He's made his return at the perfect week. I am Mythos. I am Mythos. Because, yes, we have, I think, a very good named model coming from Anthropic. And it kind of goes to the heart of the matter because the question is, is this good branding really most of what we're seeing? Or is it actually a step up? Is it something that deserves the Mythos name in its own merit? Let's talk about the new model, because Anthropic has positioned it as something that is so dangerous that it can't release it to the public.
3:21This is from the Wall Street Journal. Anthropic set to preview powerful Mythos model to ward off AI cyber threats. Anthropic is taking steps to arm some of the world's biggest technology companies with tools to find and patch bugs in their hardware and software. The company is making a preview model of its new AI model called Mythos, available to about 50 companies and organizations that maintain critical infrastructure, including Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Alphabet, and the Linux Foundation. Cybersecurity researchers and software makers worry that artificial intelligence is becoming so good at exploiting vulnerabilities that it could cause widespread online disruption.
3:59and security experts have predicted that AI models will discover an avalanche of software bugs. And it looks like Mythos is capable enough that it's been able to find so many exploits that Anthropic has no plans to release it to the general public. A model so powerful and so dangerous it can't possibly be placed in our hands. I think we're going to really get into like whether this is a true step up or whether this is more sort of, I don't know, disaster porn marketing from Anthropic, maybe a little bit of both. Ranjan, what's your reaction to this news?
4:36Ranjan Roy:All right. Well, we're going to get very into why I think this is marketing in just a moment. But I think at the high level, I have a whole theory, so get ready for this one, Alex. But at a high level, I mean, we've all been talking about what's that major step, next step change in foundation models. I mean, in the last year, actually, I think we've seen how exciting the entire industry has gotten around the overall product and harnesses, which we'll also talk about, and all these other layers of technology around the model have actually been driving innovation. But it's been a while since we've had anything really exciting on the pure foundation model front.
5:20Ranjan Roy:And Anthropics certainly made everyone feel this week that something big is happening, like that they've really cracked something, but we don't know what it is because none of us have access to it. Right. So first of all, you know, we are going to speculate a lot on this show because we haven't used the model because we're not allowed to use the model. And only this group of select companies and institutions can. But we can definitely talk through the arguments for why it might be marketing, why it might be a breakthrough. And you and I can both weigh in here. And I think there are some good arguments for and against.
5:58So first of all, you could look at the fact that this has been a product of this ever-growing attempt to build bigger data centers and train on more powerful chips. and there's a chance here that maybe what Anthropic has done is just use this scaling rule or scaling law of AI models and just say, all right, these things get better as you scale it up. The conversation around Mythos before this all happened was that it's been trained on a cluster larger than the Opus model. So it's a bigger model than Opus and would naturally see a step change improvement. Not only that, Anthropic has this consortium of companies that have agreed to try it in beta, all coming out basically under the same umbrella agreement that this thing has found many cybersecurity vulnerabilities.
6:50As this user Sporadica on X points out, are they all teaming up to lie about Mythos? Are they all coming out and saying, yeah, we'll participate in this cybersecurity consortium for just a standard run-of-the-mill LLM? I mean, the company names are wild. AWS is there, Cisco, CrowdStrike, Google, NVIDIA, Microsoft, the Linux Foundation, Palo Alto Networks, JPMorgan Chase, Broadcom. Like, do they all have AI psychosis that they're coming out here and saying, actually, you know, this sort of iterative model is powerful enough that we'll sign on to be part of this consortium, which has a great name, the glass wing project.
7:35So what would you say to that before we start going through some of the holes in the argument?
7:38Ranjan Roy:See, as we get into the marketing, do you know what the glass wing is a reference to? I'd have to look this up. Oh, you tell me. Oh, it is the Greta Oro butterfly that has wings that are transparent and you only see the veins as opposed to actually having the traditionally colorful wings of a butterfly. And to denote transparency, that is why it's called Glasswing. I find that one kind of fascinating. And of course, Anthropic is just killing it on naming everything unlike Spud from OpenAI, but that's a different story. I think in terms of, like, so the security vulnerability thing is fascinating to me because the whole security conversation has, it hasn't been front and center of how AI is going to potentially exploit all existing software.
8:25Ranjan Roy:So I think it's good that it starts being brought about, but actually it was in Tom's Hardware, there's a really good piece around, there was actually, they said thousands, but there's only actually 198 manual reviews in terms of actual software exploits. And a lot of it was done on, a lot of it was found on older software or were exploits that cannot actually be executed in any feasible manner. So it still lived more in a theoretical way. So I think like, there's only a little bit of information that has actually been provided by Anthropic. There is this entire consortium of companies, all of whom have a massive interest in AI succeeding and reaching its promise.
9:12Ranjan Roy:I'm not saying there's some mass conspiracy, but I'm also saying when you have NVIDIA and Palo Alto Networks and Microsoft and Cisco and CrowdStrike and Google, everyone wants AI to be this epochal, generational, transformational thing. so like i don't know i it's to me i don't like all of this hype when you're not actually able to see anything and to me otherwise then we don't need to know this like just do this have some meetings be careful but you don't need to like it like here is mythos it sounds like an avengers movie and in the end we're just having to sit here and just kind of try to speculate about it wait hold on but is there any other way like let's say they did actually come up let's say they're telling the truth right how how would you want it to play do you want them to do it in secret you'd want them to release it like maybe this is a responsible middle ground uh i would not want then don't don't ipo don't raise more money stop if this is so we've had this conversation forever like if this is so truly dangerous and you're sitting here on the precipice of like the destruction of humanity, take a breather.
10:25Ranjan Roy:And you can say, I saw some people arguing that this is taking a breather. But honestly, I was hearing from someone that like, right now, OpenAI and Anthropic are in like a death race to who can get out first in terms of their IPO. Like, it is just everything. When you start thinking in terms of that kind of framing, you just see this stuff it's hard to not but like everything is just about we are sitting on this like world-changing technology that is so far advanced than everyone else and like we have to do something about it like i don't know do you do you how would you do you think this is responsible and this is the most responsible not self-promotional market driving approach to actually releasing the mythos model.
11:15No, look, clearly it's self-promotional. I'm just saying that if mythos is this unbelievably dangerous model, I think this would be a responsible process to release it. But I also think there are some holes in the argument. I'll go right to Tom's Hardware. They say, Anthropics Cloud Mythos isn't a sentient super hacker. It's a sales pitch. Claims of thousands of severe zero days rely on just 198 manual reviews. So they write, Mythos might be good at finding vulnerabilities in software, but many of them aren't as potentially damaging as Anthropic wants us to believe. The big Project Glasswing blog post report on Mythos from Anthropic claimed its new model had found thousands of high severity vulnerabilities, but it's not clear how realistic those vulnerabilities are and how many of them aren't actually exploitable or even how problematic they are.
12:16In the case of this one vulnerability, FFMPEG, that's existed for 16 years, Anthropik's own analysis of the release suggested the bug is ultimately not a critical severity vulnerability. It would be challenging to turn this vulnerability into a functioning exploit. Mythos also reportedly found several potential exploits in the Linux kernel, but was unable to exploit any of them because of Linux's defense in-depth security systems. There's also this subheading, several thousands more, and Anthropics states it can't actually confirm all the thousands of bugs that Mythos claims to have found are actually critical security vulnerabilities.
12:55It's just extrapolated that number from having found it in around 90 % of these 198 manually reviewed vulnerability reports. It's all in the documentation that Anthropic provided. I mean, that is something that really points to it being more of a hype piece than not.
13:17Ranjan Roy:And then do you want to get into my Grant's theory of, I know on this show, I often look at everything from a lens of a comms professional. I know I think I've been rubbing off on you a little bit, but do you want to hear my theory? Yes. Okay. So I had to map this out because I was like, this just feels so coordinated. So on April 7th at 2.06 PM, Anthropic releases their first announcement of Project Glasswing and the Mythos model. And then they have the system card available, they start kind of tweeting through at 2.15 p.m. They make the system card available. The system card basically is, I think it's like a 70 page PDF or might even, maybe it's 250 pages.
14:06Ranjan Roy:There's like one tiny footnote. Did you hear, like I think you had mentioned, but basically there's this story going around how Mythos broke out of containment and emailed one of the researchers while they were on lunch eating a sandwich. So like this, this gets picked up everywhere that they're eating a sandwich and mythos has not been given the ability to email someone and somehow has broken out a containment and has emailed people and emailed this researcher. But so the system card, it's this tiny footnote and a 250 page document. But then 2.32 PM, 15 minutes later, 17 minutes later, Sam Bowman, the researcher, writes this 20-tweet thread about Mythos.
14:53Ranjan Roy:And then in one of those, he says, I encountered an uneasy surprise when I got an email from an instance of Mythos preview while eating a sandwich in a park. That instance wasn't supposed to have access to the internet. So in this perfectly coordinated way, within 20 minutes of each other, so you know you're not writing out this entire tweet thread, both Anthropic and Sam Bowman. All of this was prepared. And then every there's a ton of publications that start publishing this within the next hour. And everyone focuses on that sandwich detail, meaning that there was some kind of coordinated PR effort.
15:29Ranjan Roy:And it stuck. Everyone's like I've heard from friends like, holy shit, did you hear? Like it was like emailing people while they're eating a sandwich in a park. Like it was such a good detail. And it got picked up. But it was such a coordinated PR effort. Now, did that happen? I would hope yes, for how much attention they brought to it. Is that good? And what does that mean? That's a whole other discussion. But it's like they are coordinating PR around these kind of details to spread this. The fact that they did that around the sandwich, they want that to be the story and they got it to be the story.
16:06Ranjan Roy:So why do they want that to be the story? That's my rant, but that's my mapping. What do you think? Well, it is definitely a story similar to many that Anthropic has told us before about these AIs sort of having a mind of their own and the dangers around them trying to hack their benchmarks, for instance, which is something that Anthropic has been very vocal about. I think that story hit because it's such a human story. Like, think about how different that is from like, we went 99 % on the solve bench 17 exam. Like, it's much easier to be like, yo, this model just broke out an email to do it eating a sandwich.
16:45Ranjan Roy:Like that I understand. In a park. In a park. Where else would you eat a sandwich? Nowhere else. Absolutely not. So that's, I get that. But you're right. The sequence of events, there's no doubt that this is meant to burnish Anthropics' image in some way. I would just ask this. Do you think the two of us might be in our skepticism here? And we have been reading many of these announcements with, like, there's a PR element to it, which, of course, it's an announcement. Are we suffering from some sort of, what do we call it, AI derangement syndrome where we are not— I made this point earlier this week at a conference I was at.
17:29Oftentimes, skeptics can ask what happens if it doesn't work, but sometimes you ask that so often, you forget to ask what happens if it does work. And so that's what I'm asking about the derangement syndrome. Do you think we're just missing the fact that maybe this actually was a step forward? And at some point when there is a step forward, they're going to say it's a step forward. They're going to coordinate the PR. It's going to have a crazy story like the sandwich story. And I don't know. maybe this is it.
17:54Ranjan Roy:I do recognize this could have happened. But like the fact that I have to struggle to recognize that rather than just accept, well, obviously, if they're talking about it, and everyone's talking about it, it happened is the problem for me. And I am I just can't help but be skeptical. Because that meant when you see stuff that perfectly coordinated in terms of timing, like again, 20 tweet thread, 12 tweet thread within a few minutes of each other. The fact that people are publishing it, that meant there was press releases on embargo done before the entire thread. Like, it's just like you are choosing to push this specific narrative.
18:39Ranjan Roy:Now you can argue, maybe it's for the good of humanity that they're sitting around and they had multiple meetings leading up to coming up with a strategy. And maybe you can argue, like this is for the good of humanity. We want to make sure people are well aware of the dangers of this technology. And we feel the sandwich story is the best way. Is that really what's happening? Do you think that's out of the goodness and the altruistic nature of the comms professionals at Anthropic, that's why they came up? Or maybe the PR agency that's who hired it, or maybe Claude was so good that it came up with this strategy on its own, is it for the good of humanity?
19:21Ranjan Roy:Or is it because they raised a$380 billion valuation round two months ago? Now, let me tell you what I think is actually going on. And it sort of maybe is in the middle of all these. And is it a little tinfoil hat type of theory, potentially? Maybe it's somewhat conspiracy minded, but I don't care. I think I legitimately think there's a chance that this is what's happening. OK. Think about what we've seen with Anthropic and OpenAI recently. Remember, these companies released Claude and ChatGPT originally as demos, as ways to show off what their technology is capable of. So you might buy some intelligence metered from their API.
20:08Over the past three or four months, both of them have gravitated toward building a super app, something that uses the most advanced intelligence to control your computer, to help you get things done, to, in some cases, even build new software for you, which has created this big SaaSpocalypse moment and also, on the other hand, has helped them raise globs of money. under$22 billion in OpenAI's case,$30 billion in Anthropik's case. This has effectively enabled the build-out that they are embarked on, which is going to help them raise more money and grow bigger and build bigger models. And so as these models get better, I think there is a question that is taking place within these labs.
21:03Do we take the intelligence, the most intelligent models that we've built, and do we keep them exclusive to our super apps, to our super agents, or do we make them available to everybody? And I think there is maybe some hesitance there. And wouldn't it be interesting if the plan is, instead of using these instances as demos like the Codex and the Cloud Code, they want to build their own products. and to do that they want to have the best intelligence and so therefore we might see more of these releases of we actually did advance a model maybe it's not mythical like a mythos would would suggest but it's definitely better and we want to have the monopoly on the tools that will be able to use them this is from martin cassato on twitter it's only a matter of time before the before only the model creators have access to the most powerful models the rest get access to smaller distilled versions or access the models through first-party apps and services that don't provide direct access to the token path.
22:06This is my belief on what's happened. I don't not like that one.
22:14Ranjan Roy:I kind of, okay, so I have always had, I mean, anyone who sells investment advice at a price, it's never made sense to me because if it was so good, you would just use it for yourself and not need to sell it. Like when it's pure investment advice. In this case, it could be the same thing. If your model is so good that it can create all the experiences and tools and destroy the entire SaaS industry, why would you give it out and worry about that rather than just kind of like taking over and owning all of human experience and all work and everything? I see what you're saying, but then why Glasswing?
22:56Ranjan Roy:Why give it to Google and everyone else? Why not just sit there and churn out the next 12 iterations of the product and let Mythos might harm a few people within your own organization, but it's the price of doing business? Why would you still roll it out in this way? Well, I think you take a step there. And there might be real utility in having this consortium look for these security vulnerabilities with you. Because ultimately, if you do put it in the hands of people through podcode, then you're going to potentially create these risks. Remember, Anthropic isn't giving Microsoft mythos to sell through Azure.
23:45It's giving Microsoft mythos to test.
23:47Ranjan Roy:Fair, fair. That's fair. so is mythos as earth-shattering and life-changing and dangerous and exciting as it's been made up to be i i don't think so but i also think it's not a nothing burger i know it's kind of like the fool's way out it's somewhere in the middle but i really believe it's somewhere in the middle that's it you know gun to my head that's what i believe okay but i i want to get what do you think you think it's a nothing burger no no i it's tough because the advances anthropic has made i mean up into the opus four fives four six like they clearly have been doing something right and it's been impressive over the last year right so like if anyone is going to make it but by the same token i mean we've seen so much back and forth between who is leading and what and is it going to be Gemini 3.0 or is it going to be GPT-5 was supposed to be so it's hard to say that just because like past success is not an indicator of like we're going in the future but if anyone should be positioned it's still I I have trouble given the overall context accepting that it is necessarily as grand as they say it is or important and is dangerous because there's so much incentive like for to make it out to be that and like the way they rolled it out i think it's been genius and i think it's just ahead of the ipo again i think i've been like when i think about they're in a death rate and again it was framed as like whoever gets out first like whoever comes second it's actually going to be in a terrible space.
25:38Ranjan Roy:And when I keep thinking of everything in that framing, you start to see everything pushing what is the best way to actually get to IPO quickly. And right now they have this mythos about them to have to go there. I can't believe you did that. I mean, come on, that's what they named it. Okay, it was there for you. It's not Spud. It's not Spud. Not Spud. Okay, just answer this for me. What do you think about the competing first-party and third-party API businesses, right? What do you mean? I mean, their first-party tools are going to be competing with the users of their technology via API. Isn't that a bigger deal now that this SuperApp stuff is really taking off?
26:24No one's really talked about this.
Read the full transcript
26:26Ranjan Roy:Wait, wait, wait. So this is a good point. The amount of revenue from the API obviously was kind of like the driving force before. Now the kind of like main app surface has become a lot more. And we've seen like they shut down open claw access to clawed code, I believe. Or sorry, before it was part of like your actual subscription. Now you're going to have to be paying by the token. That's a good point. Like those two are more and more inherently kind of like in competition with each other. I mean, just take cursor, for example, right? It's like, oh, you know, we're supplying cloud code through cursor, codex through cursor.
27:07I mean, I don't know. I'm sure cursor still has a possibility, but still has potential. But the fact that we don't hear about cursor anymore because so much of this has moved inside and is almost like the canary in the coal mine, so to speak. or the signal of what's to come because, you know, again, super app. This is the way they want this to be a venue for AI to control your computer. And when you do that, you know, all these companies that are paying for, you know, the API might not be so happy. And you have to sort of make a, I think you will eventually have to make a bet on what your business is.
27:47It's very tough to sustain both for a while. And who do you want to have the best models in that case? me i mean if i'm a first party i'm like i want them yeah yeah no no i let you i think this is
27:57Ranjan Roy:a good i have a feeling we're going to be talking a lot about this as we kind of like go into the ipos of these companies and just that whole process because you're right like there isn't some it's not like a full intrinsic conflict between those two they could just be different business lines but there is a bit of there's tension certainly between those two and uh i I also, though, I hate Super App. No one's going to be WeChat in the U.S. It's Super App. I don't know. Do you remember everyone wanted to be Super App in the 2010s because you'd hear in China. But this is so different, though. Super App was like, oh, you open an app, you can do the lottery, you can do Uber, you can do payments, you can read the news.
28:41This is different.
28:42Ranjan Roy:This is like a really Super App. Super App, right? It brings, I mean, yes, it's the same word, but it's a completely different use case. Okay, we need a different term then. Super app is too loaded for me. We need a, we'll think about it. Mythos. Mythos is a good term. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so let's just predict the future here. Not like we know what's going to happen. There is an argument to be made that Anthropic will wait until OpenAI releases Spud and then just put Mythos out there in its distilled version. Actually, no, no. Is that going to happen? I like even better if the sequence of events is like Sam releases Spud.
29:23Ranjan Roy:And again, if you haven't followed or weren't listening last week, while Anthropic's codename for their kind of like incredible model is Mythos, OpenAI's codename internally for their next model is Spud. And if Sam takes Spud and is just like, you know what? This is like the most single dangerous thing that has ever existed in humanity. And guess what? Rolling out to U.S. users in the next 24 hours and international in the next 96. I think that'll be such a power move and the most SAM thing ever. And then they're going to have to follow. And I think they will. You got sputted. You got sputted.
30:07Ranjan Roy:Sputted. Okay. So I think to be continued, right? Like we'll really have to see what this model looks like and how it feels when we use it. But I think at least today we've certainly presented the pro like the for and against arguments for like why this might be a step up or why this might be marketing. All right. Before we go to break, I want to hear about the meta harness. This is obviously this is gravy for the harness hive. Shout out to the harness hive out there. Everybody here with us. What is a meta harness, Ranjan? OK, so Stanford just released a new study called the meta harness. and basically the idea we have talked about this as one of the big trends and alex has been very uncomfortable with the term but then came to embrace the term and as we even i guess call our listeners the harness hive but the idea this is they've adopted they have adopted this in the comments we always get your harness hive is ready harness where's where's ron john harness hive is waiting well let's okay so so again an agentic harness is the idea that you and this is what has I have been fired up about what I've been working on at Writer since last July.
31:13Ranjan Roy:The idea that you have a set of tools and connected data and underlying foundation models, but the harness is basically what helps control how agentic workflows are built, actions are taken, how data moves around, how outputs are fed back into a system. The harness is that entire controlling layer. Now, Stanford came up with the idea of a meta harness. It's a harness over other harnesses. It's the idea that you can change the harness around a fixed model and see a 6x performance gap on the same benchmark model. So the idea is that the more you can actually improve that harness and actually have AI working on building the harness and optimizing the harness, you can actually improve the performance of a foundation model.
32:08Ranjan Roy:And it's in the whole product versus model debate that we've had for years now on the show, now introducing a harness as another kind of like surface in which this actually gets solved is interesting to me. But I don't know, I just love the idea that Stanford's got the meta harness and who's got the best harness. Maybe mythos won't matter at all. it's all about who's got the best harness even though i do understand the harness conceptually i still hate the word and i'll take it to my grave i'm never going to endorse it harness hive fine but the actual and meta harness is even worse i mean we've gone we've really run the gamut here mythos good name spud bad name meta harness uh i'm ready to throw my headphones out the window next time i hear that i don't know okay but it captures it it is what it is it like it explains what it's doing it's harnessing all these tools and models and data and wrangling them somehow like a i guess a harness is a horse term right i mean yeah horse uh climbing you can use oh yeah climbing climbing yeah other potentially use cases of harness we're not going to go there.
33:22I mean, maybe if you're if you're chatting. Yeah. All right. We're going to go to a break and we come back. We're going to talk about we're going to go to a break and we come back and talk about some pretty concerning news about violence towards, you know, folks involved in the build out and then token maxing. We'll be back right after this. If a driver in your fleet got in an accident tomorrow, can you prove what actually happened without the footage? it's much harder. So your insurance rates spike and you're stuck paying for it. That's why so many fleets choose Samsara's AI-powered dashcams.
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37:02and a handwritten note reading no data centers was left on his doorstep. In a statement, Indianapolis City Council member Ron Gibson said he and his eight-year-old son were not physically harmed, but they were awakened by the sound of gunfire. Just steps from where those bullets struck in our dining room table where my son had been playing with his Legos the day before. The reality is deeply unsetting. This was not just an attack on my home, but endangered my child and disrupted the safety of our entire neighborhood. Pretty scary. And we talked recently about how data centers have become so unpopular in the United States.
37:39To me, this is sort of just kind of, I mean, first of all, just disturbing and should never ever come to this. But it does, not even but, and it does follow a trend of violence toward AI infrastructure, including, this is from Polymarket, though I'm pretty sure I've seen news reports of these. separately food delivery robots in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Chicago, facing rise in violent attacks from the anti-clanker activists. What do you make of this, Rajan?
38:07Ranjan Roy:Okay, I'm going to separate out the anti-clanker activists and food delivery robots from the data center question, I think is like fascinating because so the story I hadn't realized before that apparently Indianapolis is, There's a number of state tax incentives. They've grown 40 new data centers over the last few years. There's a bunch of massive companies that are building out there. Every big tech giant is investing. So it's actually acutely an area that is feeling this. I think like the biggest to me, the most interesting or scary thing that happens is right now it's kind of like our data centers taking the jobs or taking water.
38:58Ranjan Roy:But as like, or if energy prices continue to rise, given what's been happening, if resources start getting constrained more, if water, like, there's so much around the resource side of it when it becomes like, more tangible that this stuff just gets a lot scarier. So I think like it is probably the most clear physical manifestation of like, again, mythos crawling around some wires and sending an email is interesting, but it's hard to like, you don't see it. this is a giant building being constructed in the middle of your town. I feel that these are going to continue to be like, I don't want to say use the word target, but certainly they're a visual representation of what's going on.
39:52Yeah. I mean, I wrote about this in Big Technology today that these buildings can be faceless, they can be imposing, often are, and they're mostly symbols of tech's like interest in showing and delivering this technology despite the uncertainty it causes to people's lives. Like if we hear the way tech executive or AI executives speak, they'll always say like, yeah, there'll be some displacements, right? And, but, you know, we think the benefits of the technology will outweigh the drawbacks. And sure, long-term they might. But we all know that the people that went through the industrial revolution didn't exactly have a good time, despite the fact that we've all, you know, sort of benefited based off of, you know, now that society has reoriented itself after that painful period.
40:34But people are growing increasingly upset here. I don't think they have a clear articulation of the benefits of this technology yet. And by the way, just before we went to air, this story broke. It's in Wired. Suspect arrested for allegedly throwing Molotov cocktail at Sam Altman's home. San Francisco police arrested a suspect early on Friday morning for allegedly attacking the home of OpenAI's CEO of Sam Altman and making threats outside of the company's headquarters. OpenAI sent a note early to employees about the incident early Friday. Early this morning, someone threw a Molotov cocktail at Sam Altman's home and also made threats at our San Francisco headquarters.
41:11Thankfully, no one was hurt. We deeply appreciate how quickly the SFPD responded. I mean, this, I don't know. I think this is crazy. I just am sort of stunned that people actually being violent against these, I'll include the robots, the robots, data centers, and now the leaders. It is warring because, again, especially on the data center front, the way that this technology is advancing, all the labs have said, is by increasing the physical footprint of data centers. and now you have you have violence to get them against them and you also have political opposition against them and it's it's like obviously you don't ever want to see violence anywhere and you know above that um or you know on top of that you you may already see you we already see that these the data center build out is slowing maybe 50 according to some reports won't be built this year the ones that are on target to be built this year uh and this makes it even more difficult Yeah, well, on that last point, I kind of feel you're going to see more and more like announcements about slowing data center growth or lack of actual follow through in terms of like planned data centers.
42:28Ranjan Roy:and the Iran war or kind of like geopolitics or like access to the resources required will be front and center to those stories separate from the actual demand uh like for the actual like uh for the actual compute so so I don't know it's that part is going to be interesting I think like I mean we're we haven't even we're in a midterm election year I'm surprisingly like Like that part of it, I guess there's enough going on in the world, but like it hasn't really started heating up that conversation. But there's no doubt in my mind, AI is going to be front and center. And it just makes for such a good villain because we have talked about this plenty.
43:14Ranjan Roy:The industry has not put the most likable people front and center representing the technology. There's not been a compelling story about how this is good for you and all the people kind of front and center are telling you that half of jobs are going to be gone. And this is going to be like it's going to be the most dangerous technology, yet it is making certain pockets of people ungodly rich. So I think, yeah, it's a pretty it's a pretty good villain. And no access to any of the upside on the public markets right now, which is a problem. Not like that's going to be the main issue, but that's also one of the factors here.
43:54And we also talked about a few weeks ago, we talked about AI's unpopularity and its need for a public face that's going to rally support around it. Whether Jensen could be that person or not.
44:03Ranjan Roy:Yeah. Man, it's just, we wondered, what are the downstream effects going to be? And clearly they are. So I would say the violence is maybe a symptom of that discontent. But we're now starting to see the manifestation of it come to fruition. And of course, there's this bill that Bernie and AOC introduced about a data center moratorium should be national and there's no chance of that passing. But state by state, you could see in the United States real pushback to this. And in fact, as I was doing my research and writing about this today for big technology, I found this story. It's from CNBC. Maine is set to become the first state with a data center ban.
44:40Maine is poised to implement the first statewide ban on data center construction, a move that could clear the way for other states to adopt similar measures and pumped the brakes on a growing industry. Lawmakers in Maine greenlit the text of a bill this week to block data centers from being built in the state until November 2027.
44:59Ranjan Roy:Do you think this is going to happen more and more? It's happening. Maine, I feel Maine would be, Maine's got a lot of land. But I guess the water constraints, yeah. Yeah, I mean, here's my thing. Politicians read polls. the polls are terrible for ai right now terrible and unlike social media unlike let's say software you do have a say into whether this technology progresses because you can stop the data center builds because the data centers are so foundational here that's interesting so whereas whereas these companies were completely you know sort of unencumbered by government when they were just um you know building social networks it's not the same thing here hold on hold on that's an interesting like angle on that because but social media i guess you could push for regulation it's just that everyone was is too addicted to social media and cannot stop using it so they don't want to actually do you think that's the issue that like for how and again this is my personal view, but how bad social media can be for society.
46:11Ranjan Roy:But everyone got so addicted to it that by the time it was trying to regulate it, it was too late versus most people still haven't really felt what AI can do positively for them in their life. And the industry hasn't really explained it well. And that's why the fact that this is going to happen at the beginning versus like if it was like if people very quickly in 2009 mobilized against social media it would be the the equivalent of that yeah well i think we know the polling shows that if you use ai you're much more likely to be in support of it than against it um but there's like two sides of it right there's like do i use it and then we don't really know what the job implications are now we all have a thought on whether AI is going to cause mass job loss or not.
47:03But you can also be in a situation where like you use AI and you like it and you also got fired because, you know, your boss thinks that they can do the same work with like three employees instead of 17.
47:15Ranjan Roy:No, you're right. That, that, that is a completely different element of it versus social media. But yeah, it's going to be, whoever and this is where how good anthropic is at communications given what we saw with mythos and everything i outlined just make people like ai a little more do something do some of this like creative communication strategy and just make people be like oh ai is cool that's all i mean i think they should i think that you know in retrospect their super bowl ad even though they were praised for, it was kind of a miss because it ended up bringing down the category as opposed to making people excited about AI.
47:56Ranjan Roy:Exactly. And then meanwhile, the Super Bowl ads, like, and then you have Google trying to be super like, uh, emotional and sentimental and like, and still it was just the most random, like not connected to Gemini ad imaginable. So yeah. kantrowitz and roy don't let's what yeah oh you liked it i was gonna say i don't want to spend too much time on this because we've covered it last week um but tbpn coming into open ai like the argument oh i was i was off last week yeah the argument i would make would be listen these guys are great content marketers and ai needs good content marketing so maybe maybe it wasn't jensen maybe it was the tbpn but no brothers all along they i mean i yeah i know that was last week's news and i was skiing in utah but man that one doesn't make sense at all to me there's they don't they know how to speak to people who already love ai they're not going to convince aoc to not build a data center or like some anyone who is like anti-data center as an activist already is not going to listen to tbpn and be like now i get it now i understand i don't know no no no the point is these and i'm not i mean i made the argument against last week so let me try the argument for this week the point is that these guys could help show those benefits of ai because they're ai literate and also somewhat likable and and do that in a content marketing side of open AI versus on the TBPN show.
49:41Ranjan Roy:And I'm saying they're likable to people who already like AI. And I'm not, I think they're great. No, you're right. I don't think anyone who hates AI has even heard of them. One last thing. Okay. So it's, they, open AI has marketing, a marketing machine, right? We're talking about how like this marketing machine needs to show the benefits of AI. so not so by acquiring them not only do they have the show but they have these two guys that in house is effectively content marketers that can help with that side of things not that use their platform but maybe shape the messaging yeah no no but i would i'm still gonna have to give the edge to anthropic on this one again going back to everything we were talking about earlier rolling out a tight communication strategy that actually gets the message out that you want to everyone bites.
50:33Ranjan Roy:It gets, it creates, Scott Besant is creating like a council of Wall Street advisors to address the potential threats of your upcoming model. Like, I mean, guys, TBPN is not going to do that. That whoever is doing that over at Anthropic, God bless them, because that's communications. All right. So let's, let's, we can keep going on this over time, but I think we both agree that this is, there's a clear image problem here. And it's just snowballing and getting worse. So, oh, and this is not even going to help. I don't know if you saw this New York Times story about this company called Medvi. Oh, I saw it.
51:14There's been talk about, is there going to be somebody that builds the$1 billion one-person company? I think the Times wrote the story thinking they found it, how AI helped one man and his brother build a$1.8 billion company. Matthew Gallagher took just two months, 20 ,000 and more than a dozen artificial intelligence tools, to get his startup off the ground. From his house in Los Angeles, Gallagher used AI to write the code for the software that powers his company, produce the website copy, generate the images and videos for ads, and handle customer service. He created AI systems to analyze his business performance, and he outsourced the other stuff he couldn't do himself.
51:51His startup Medvi, a telehealth provider of GLP-1 weight loss drugs, got 300 customers in its first month. In its second month, it gained 1 ,000 more. In 2025, it made 401 million in sales. This year, they're on track to do$1.8 billion in sales. A$1.8 billion company with just two employees in the age of AI, it's increasingly possible. Let's pause here. What do you think about this before we go into all the problems with MedV?
52:22Ranjan Roy:Okay. I got some thoughts on this one. My first one, on track to do$1.8 billion in sales, a$1.8 billion company with just two employees in the age of AI, it's increasingly possible. I do want to call out on track to do$1.8 billion of sales. Regular listeners will know of my hatred of ARR as a term. We have no idea what that means. They have not made$1.8 billion. They could have just, I was a little disappointed. And I think Aaron Griffith, who wrote the story at the New York Times, is an incredible reporter and follower for years. But that one, did they make the extrapolatable one month of revenue?
53:06Ranjan Roy:Was it one week of revenue? Was it a few months? Whatever it was. So already that number feels inflated. but I will say a lot of the backlash I saw and like Alex has a tech dirt uh article linked here but like actually does kind of point out that it is an AI story it's a really bad for the industry but it was like MedB success has little to do with AI this is from tech dirt uh and quite a lot to do with fake doctors deep fake before and after photos misleading ads snake actual snake oil and the kind of old-fashioned deceptive marketing that separated marks from their money for centuries. So, so much came out that like there was deep fake doctors and like, like completely AI generated ads that were completely misleading, but it was using AI and like he stitched together all these different parts of the GLP-1 supply chain, which is, I'm sure there's lots of scammy stuff going on everywhere, but he did it and you could do it.
54:12Ranjan Roy:And like, you can picture doing it and any of us could picture doing it with AI. So, so I actually think the revenue number aside, I do think this is actually a terrifying, but actually probably more true than people are giving a credit for story about an AI first business. Man, I had the same reaction. I think it would have been great if they just switch the tone a little bit, right? Like the Medvi story shows how a little AI and maybe kind of, I don't want to say scamming, but whatever's close to that can get you to scale really quick. And he picked the right industry, GLP-1s. And no one has any illusions about what GLP-1s do or do not, right?
54:55Like the fact that he, and maybe I'm giving too much slack here, but the fact that he made AI images of people's weight loss, it's like, okay, like, yeah, Of course, the guy misrepresented what he was doing on a number of fronts. But like, we know what the people come to GLP-1s for the same thing. And he delivered it to people at scale with AI. But yeah, the Times did end up with an editor's note. After this article was published, many readers noted that Medvi was facing legal and regulatory actions for its business practices. Our piece should have included the information to give readers a fuller picture of the scrutiny that the company was facing.
55:34We updated this article to a warning letter from the FDA and a pending class action lawsuit accusing Medvi of violating California's anti-spam law. You could probably say the same thing about a lot of, you know, GLP-1 startups right now.
55:49Ranjan Roy:As we're talking, now I'm even more like, it's true. I mean, again, headline revenue number aside, this actually is a really important story. But I mean, again, yeah, it's how they framed it. Like if it is, if it's like AI turbocharging the ability for people to kind of like scale sketchy, again, like if you have like the world's first AI scale drug dealer where one person can now with some drones and whatever else can operate like an entire cartel. um they're like is that that could be the first billion dollar ai business but yeah i uh it's the framing but but it is it it's important it actually is important and this it i think it's real i just don't think it's necessarily a billion dollar business but i think it's real i mean it could be right i mean i guess we're both medvy pilled i just signed up right now i've got a full year supply of monjaro from well also dr samantha altmanson again like like this is where not to get too into it but like you know the way revenue would be recognized anyways is like this person is taking a tiny fraction of whatever the actual end price of the product is and it's like could even be selling it at a loss um and so like again yeah what was the probably not at a loss very little overhead yeah a good he's just like what he's like drop shipping glp ones to people from like some compounding pharmacy yeah no no i mean it's not just drug but there i was reading and i only very superficial knowledge of this but from what i was reading like there are even more parts about how you can get the kind of prescription automatically done there's all these other parts of the glp1 supply chain like outside of just traditional retail and drop shipping but that that have become there's all these players rising up that are kind of filling and automating those so he basically had a whole it's kind of like agencies in a traditional marketing world so he just had a network of those and was just like connected to them and communicating them to them via ai this guy's diabolical all right we gotta cover one more story before we get out here it's called token maxing all right meta employees vie for an ai token legend status employees at meta who want to show off their AI superuser chops are competing in an internal leaderboard for status as a session immortal or even better, a token legend.
58:26The ranking set up by a meta employee on its intranet use company data, measure how many tokens employees are burning through, dub Claudeonomics after the flagship product from Anthropic, the leaderboards. Leaderboard aggregates AI usage from 85 ,000 meta employees listing the top 250 power users. The practice is emblematic of Silicon Valley's newest form of conspicuous consumption known as token maxing. Since the story went out, Meta took the thing down because they were embarrassed by it. But do you agree with me that this is obviously like not the right way to incentivize people like to use tokens?
59:07Like if you gamify token usage, you're just going to get people burning tokens to compete with each other.
59:14Ranjan Roy:Okay. Man, this one hits home very hard. So at Writer, we actually had where we had an internal, we actually had a similar, it wasn't like a leaderboard, but we had a report that was like, oh, this is like token usage. And we're looking at it internally of employees. And then someone had actually screenshotted the top and my name was on it. I was like third out of employees and like had burned like, and I've told you, I'm cranking workflows and agents all day long and like, and I'm obsessed with it. So they had posted on LinkedIn. And then I started getting texts from like some other friends were like, oh, wait, I just saw this thing going.
59:55Ranjan Roy:So like this kind of hit home in its own small way for me. And we were even discussing like, what does this mean? and it kind of caused a stir for us internally. And like what I think when it is, I actually think it is a good thing in terms of like recognizing just simply who's actually using a lot of AI. Like which at this exact moment, I do think using a lot of AI is the only way to learn and the right way to like constantly experimenting in every single possible way. now if anyone ever tried if it ever became important in terms of your review with your boss or i think then the like incentives become too screwed up and like it's just the whole thing becomes a little more corrupt performative and weird but i it was it was interesting because like you could just see it right there and even like even at my work like the people who i'm always talking to about, oh, like every morning, what did you build?
1:01:00Ranjan Roy:Oh, check out this cool thing I built. It was the people who were at the top of the leaderboard. So like when it's not being done in a performative way, it's actually a good indicator of like who's really just heads down, just obsessed with this. But I mean, on the meta side, also I was wondering like if that was true at meta and they have unlimited budget, what percentage of Anthropics ARR was like meta engineers just melting tokens? Yeah. So first of all, I've, I've heard now from multiple people that this is something that happens in many companies. I mean, I guess it's everywhere now because they are trying to incentivize use of the tools.
1:01:39So, okay, I get that. But I will also say that Anthropic this week just came out with new revenue numbers. They are doing 30 billion ARR now. And I'm pretty sure what that is, is you take the 10 minutes that meta pays its token bill and you multiply that by whatever number gets you to a year.
1:02:00Ranjan Roy:I mean, you know my rant on this one. Like everyone's like they went from 12 billion to 30 billion in two and a half months. Like just say the freaking numbers like anthropic. Come on. It's OK because it just doesn't sound as exciting. And it is exciting. And if you're doing 2.2 billion, whatever it is in revenue in a month, that's insane. But like, yeah, I don't know. With no clarity on that. And it's just a bunch of clawed heads on clawed. But what was the name of the Facebook thing? Clawedonomics. Clawedonomics. And it's meta with their just sitting there, just melting clawed tokens. Yeah. That's what it is.
1:02:47All right, well, soon enough, we'll have access to Mythos, and then that leaderboard will rise even further. And then we'll get some numbers, by the way, because sooner or later, these companies are going to file to go public, and we will certainly be able to play high, poor, true as we look through that S1.
1:03:04Ranjan Roy:Last question before we drop. Yeah. Will they hire law firms and banks to go public? You know it. You know it. They use Salesforce. So, yes. Obviously. Definitely. What do you think? I think Ike and I think Anthropic is going to do something interesting. We've seen it would be speaking of marketing. Yeah. Be the most baller. Most baller. We did not hire a law firm, but we are so confident in all of our filings. Like, why not? Why not? Yeah. That'll be the first harness IPO. First time. Everyone will be thrilled. All right, Ron John. Great to have you back. Looking forward to next week. Thanks again for coming on.
1:03:49See you next week. See you next week. Thank you, everybody, for listening and watching. And we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.
From the publisher
Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover: 1) Anthropic's new Mythos preview 2) Is Mythos marketing or a legit breakthrough? 3) The Mythos sandwich guy story 4) OpenAI and Anthropic's brewing 1st party vs. API conflict of interest 5) The Meta-Harness 6) Violence against AI on the rise 7) Maine is going to pass a data center moratorium 8) Was Medvi really a $1.8 billion two person startup? 9) Tokenmaxxing is all the rage
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