Countdown to GPT-5, OpenAI’s Stargate Sputters, AI Math Wars

30:11Remember, it's not just the training of these models. You've got to run them afterwards. You can't afford to have them get slow or fail and go down because your customers won't be happy. And meanwhile, if you think about what's happening with Stargate again, because if this is the key, then Stargate is crucial. This is from Safra Kats, the CEO of Oracle. Stargate isn't formed yet. What? This is a Wall Street Journal story. Altman has used the Stargate name on projects that aren't being financed by the partnership between OpenAI and SoftBank. OpenAI refers to a data center in Abilene, Texas, and another it agreed to in March to use in Denton, Texas, as part of Stargate, even though they are being done without SoftBank.

30:50And SoftBank, I'm pretty sure, owns this Stargate name. It's all very confusing. Meanwhile, OpenAI comes out with some news. It's going to expand its Oracle data center and it's going to develop an additional 4.5 gigawatts of the Stargate data center. It announced on Tuesday, the day after the Wall Street Journal story, and it looks like it's going to attempt to build 10 gigawatts of new compute through Stargate. I think that was already sort of baked in, but they're sort of signaling through the press that you know what, there are no speed bumps. Who do you believe? Uh, well, I don't think that either.

31:31I think there are definitely huge speed bumps like that. They're having to go over. That's not to say that they won't make it, but they are finding this more challenging and more difficult than they had. Part of the reason they're able to claim Stargate is off the ground is because they changed the definition of it. Previously, it had to involve open AI, Oracle, the data center provider, softbank for financia and mgx which is a huge new sovereign wealth well sovereign wealth linked fund in the middle east that was going to provide a lot of money now open ai said any data center that we rent because remember they don't build it themselves that's stargate which is obviously not what they said in january so they're kind of but you remember um safra cats chief executive oracle it's just a publicly listed company with shareholders if they're asked a question by analyst on a call, they can't lie because they'll be sued.

32:22So if Stargate doesn't exist, she has to say Stargate is not formed yet because otherwise she'll open herself personally but also the company up to all kinds of lawsuits. So you see kind of the difference between being a private Silicon Valley tech company and a listed one. You often get closer to the truth when someone is not put on the stand but when somebody has asked something, you know, material information in a public context, you can't just say, oh, well, but we're doing all this other stuff and we're just going to kind of change the definition. You're like, no, it doesn't exist yet, which is somewhat concerning.

32:55I mean, part of this is if you look at what they're doing at OpenAI, I mean, this is a company that kind of exploded into the public imagination in 2022. You often lose track of the ambition. You know, they're trying to build a device that they won't talk about with Johnny Ive that's not a phone and it's not a headset or glasses. they're building their own data centers you know they're building a variety of models consumer apps a browser they want to get into shopping they want to get into agentic commerce online you know they they have huge lobbying apparatus you know in washington and around the world to try and influence policy um and i don't even know how sam altman arranges his day to try and keep all of this in his head.

33:41But it does feel to me, and if you speak to people that are close to him and advise him, maybe they're doing too much too soon. I mean, I know tech is all like move fast and break stuff or you're establishing monopolistic rivals like Google and Microsoft and Meta will come in and sweep the board. But it does kind of feel like OpenAI is trying to keep a lot of balls in the air at the moment. And Sam has a new baby. And Sam has found the time to go on comedy podcasts. A joke I made in our Discord today was like, how's he going on Theo Vaughn? It's like, well, AGI is doing his work so he can spend the time doing things he loves, like comedy podcasts.

34:21But a company that will call something Stargate when Stargate is not formed yet, I think they might call AGI or their model AGI. And maybe it doesn't meet the technical definition either. But, you know, as these projects get built up, we're going to start to see this massive tax on the grid. And there's some great reporting in the FT this week about what AI is doing to energy costs. Here's the headline. AI demand drives up electricity supply cost in the largest U.S. market to record high. The cost of providing electricity in America's largest power market will hit a record high due to soaring demand from artificial intelligence data centers and delays in building new power plants, raising energy prices for consumers.

35:06All right, this is going to get a bit wonky. I'll just read this paragraph and turn it over to you, Steven. Grid operator PJM, which covers 13 states and Washington, D.C., said Tuesday it produced energy supplies for$329.17 per megawatt day, a 22 % increase compared with the previous year. The organization will pay power producers$16.1 billion to meet its energy needs from June 2026 to May 2027, a 10 % increase compared with the previous year. It expects a 1 % to 5 % rise for customers in their energy bills, depending on how utilities and states passed on costs. cost. Wow. So this is now really starting to hit the size where it's having a real impact on energy bills, double digit pricing increases.

36:01Energy, it seems to me, the ability to produce it and deliver it efficiently is going to be a major, major source of competitive advantage for whichever country figures it out. Absolutely. That's why you're seeing companies like Microsoft and Google bring old nuclear power plants online and strike deals with like these mini fusion reactor companies of which Sam Altman used to be a major owner of one as well. There is just quite simply not enough power that exists in the United States or around the world or anywhere really apart from China to drive these data center ambitions. It just doesn't exist.

36:40And this is all linked to top level government policy. Donald Trump made a speech earlier this week about throwing the weight of the US federal government behind AI infrastructure. But just a few weeks before, he kind of gutted the American renewable energy industry, in particular solar and wind, by taking away various federal credits. This, to a large part, is how China is going to power the future of data centers and AI with solar energy. um in the us we're actually seeing it take a bit of a step back um there's only so many gas turbines elon musk can put at his data center in memphis to power the thing what he really needs is a hydroelectric dam or a vast field of um solar panels or offshore wind which is why he's become so agitated with donald trump and the big beautiful bill not only did it almost destroy tesla's business model overnight.

37:36It also kind of gutted the ability of the US to compete with China on renewable energy, at least in terms of the investment and deployment. So it doesn't surprise me at all that consumers are being hit in the pocket due to the increase in demand for data center power. And it's a real open question about how the hell you're going to power all of this stuff. In particular, you know, in states that are really bidding for this, for these, to have these data centers built to create jobs and revenue like Ohio and Pennsylvania and Arizona and Texas. Isn't it all just going to end up being nuclear power?

38:09I mean, that's where I see it going. It takes a long time to build a nuclear power station and get it online safely. And while a lot of people might be pro-nuclear power, I'm not sure how many people are pro-living next to nuclear power. So you've got kind of the NIMBY, not in my backyard, coming in. I mean, we've, you know, you've had nuclear disasters in very advanced companies with good track safety records like japan very recently and i think memories are still strong of that but i do think there's a big place for the next generation of nuclear power in playing this because i mean you know the coal and oil and gas just won't last forever it's so funny you mentioned nibi because i'm reading this reuters report about the president president trump's uh plan to expedite ai development and um lift some export controls and make sure that the data centers can work.

38:58And this, the president's going full abundance. This is from the story. The plan calls for fast tracking the construction of data centers by loosening environmental regulations and utilizing federal land to expedite the development of the projects, including any power supplies. Looks like, I mean, I'm conflicted about this, I'll be honest. I mean, I've heard from AI lab leaders who are happy about the fact that they're going to have the energy to be able to produce this. On the other hand, I'm not excited about federal land being used and being used to do this. That's, you know, I mean, call me an idealist, but that's the people's land.

39:40And the idea that you're going to fast track and, you know, potentially move. I mean, it's true. The abundance guys, the Republicans, they all have a point that like it's too hard to build in the U.S. but if you like sort of disregard the clean water act maybe that's too strong of a word but if you blow past it i am concerned of what the consequences are going to be there yeah to return to the ethos of drill baby drill isn't it you know just get these products build you know get these new sources online build as much as possible i guess the argument for people that believe in abundance and we're just super intelligence is just around the corner is these technologies will help humanity find ways to capture carbon from the atmosphere or build and use things more efficiently.

40:26And then as we become more accustomed to running these data centers, you can use them more efficiently over time. But certainly the mass appropriation of federal land, opening up, disregarding any environmental rules, not as an American or a voter, but doesn't seem like the best public policy to me. Yeah, Ilya Sudskever, one of the former chief scientists of OpenAI, now the guy who's running safe super intelligence. He's had this vision that like the world is going to be wallpapered with data centers as the scaling laws continue to show results. And I look at some of these pictures of these data centers, and I'm just like, oh, my goodness, this is the vision being lived out.

41:11Yeah, well, with the ability to build a data center, Elon Musk has shown you can do it in months, not years. He's also shown a willingness to disregard local planning laws and environmental laws, which Memphis seems only too keen to help him do in order to make sure that he builds there and not anywhere else. But it's a race. And you look at countries, jurisdictions where it's harder to build, like from my personal experience, the UK and the EU. If you take 10 years to build something, you know, Elon Musk is building in three months, China is building in six, and Microsoft is building in one, there is going to be a little bit of a gap, especially if you want your sovereign AI and you want your, you know, your citizen's data stored, stored and processed locally.

41:56It is a, the concern in the other direction is that Europe will just fall so far behind these other countries. It won't have an AI industry that's meaningful in any sense, which may already be the case. Yeah, unfortunately, it does seem like it's trending that way. So I do want to talk about this bake-off between Google and OpenAI on the International Math Olympiad. There's kind of this funny story where both of these companies said that they had achieved gold medals in the International Math Olympiad competition, but OpenAI didn't officially participate, so it announced first, and then Google officially participated.

42:37it announced second but it has like the actual gold medal status because it was part of the competition this is from the new york times this was the first time a machine which solved five of six problems at the 2025 competition reached this level of success they're talking about the google machine the news is another sign that leading companies are continuing to improve their ai systems in areas like math science and computer coding and i just want to make sure i get this right. This is a large language model. This is a chatbot with a reasoning system that is getting gold on the International Math Olympiad, not a purpose-built AI system that is used for solving these math problems.

43:23So the idea that you could have a chatbot go into the Math Olympiad and win gold once and perhaps twice for the first time. I think we talk often about how benchmarks are unreliable and all that stuff. But I think this is a pretty good indication that this stuff continues to make progress. Yeah, I mean, it's a spectacular achievement. It's quite funny after I moved here just over 18 months ago. So I'm getting to know how Silicon Valley works and how the sausage are made and who competes with who, who hates whom. And OpenAI and Google have a long running battle trying to release products a few days ahead of each other to kind of show the other up.

44:07I mean, it happens frequently around Google's IO event, which was a few months ago. And so Google had followed all the right procedures, DeepMind, it entered its model, it was in controlled circumstances. And, you know, obviously it was pretty confident it was going to win a gold medal and it was going to be good PR. And then you have open AI like using the same system, not officially entering, not subjecting itself to the same type of controls and scrutiny and front running Google's announcement by three days. And again, like kind of soaking up all of the good media as a result of that. Now there's little sort of behind the scenes competitive doesn't take away from the achievement that either either of these have made.

44:46And yeah, maybe they run GPT-5 through the Mass Olympiad. It'll do even better.

44:53Yeah, maybe they could go six to six at this time and enter officially. But I just thought it was worth bringing up because it does show that all these things that we thought it's crazy, right? This is a predict the next word engine with like a little bit of new techniques applied to allow it to reason, go step by step. And it's winning the gold in the math Olympiad. It's totally crazy. And you think about the applications that it could be put into or used for with this type of math skill. We're at this point where companies are all trying to figure out, like, is there an enterprise use case for AI?

45:33And I think if it's able to do abstract math, it's able to get these problems right, you could start to see it having a real impact in industries like finance and maybe even like the sciences. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned Mustafa Suleiman's AI diagnostic tool. I mean, we both interviewed him about that a few weeks ago. And what they did is they took the various models because they used OpenAI actually performed best, but they had a few others from Google and Anthropic too. what they they did is they almost created like a team of doctors from reasoning models that would talk to each other and question each other and make them go back to the source material and what they were able to do is take the most complicated sort of doctor like house level you know the tv show house level weird medical ailments that affect one person every six years and they were able to diagnose them you know at a rate like four times more successfully and much faster and much cheaper with fewer tests than human doctors.

46:33So we're starting to see very real, real world use cases from this, you know, across the sciences, across mathematics. And I used to be the banking editor for the FT in London covering financial services. They are extremely interested in this technology and like what it could do in terms of turbocharging their returns. And if we're going to look at the dystopian side a little bit more, how they could cut their head count and increase their margins. So I want to talk very briefly about a very interesting part of this diagnostic orchestrator. So it actually did improve performance. I'm sure you caught this.

47:11It improved performance by Forex over doctors who didn't have like access to Google and and I guess their colleagues. But when you looked at the fine print, this orchestration system helped, performed not Forex better than traditional LLMs, but like a few percentage points better than traditional LLMs and actually not that much better than reasoning systems. And it was like, on one hand, cool, okay, AI is able to do this much better than doctors. But on the other hand, I think another, if you wanted to take a contrarian look at what was going on, it was that the very basic level of AI is itself three times better than um than your average doctor uh who's given some constraints which is crazy yeah i felt it was a bit unfair to test doctors who weren't allowed to talk to their colleagues refer to medical search online you know it you're kind of okay you beat a human with a lot of the you know the most impressive you know bits about you know modern medicine i you know the the the diagnostic process and putting in their colleagues but you know what

48:24Microsoft are not going to put out a product that doesn't have impressive results, are they? No, I don't think so. All right, let's breeze through a couple of these earnings reports. We do have the San Francisco Bureau Chief of the Financial Times here, so I feel like we should make use of your expertise as we're starting to see some big tech earnings come in. So I'll give you one question each on Alphabet and Tesla, And then I want to get to this memo that Sonia Nadella wrote about layoffs at Microsoft, and then we'll get out of here. So first of all, Alphabet, it's amazing. Despite the rise of generative AI, this company is continuing to crush.

48:59We will have, by the way, their head of search and information and knowledge coming on the show in a couple of weeks. So folks, stay tuned for that. But here's the numbers from your story. Google's core search and advertising business grew 12%, beating expectations for a 9 % rise. So even as Generative AI continues to take share, you would imagine, in search, everything's going up and Google's figuring it out. And not only are they growing, they are growing double digits and they're beating expectations. What is happening there? It's very impressive. Well, I think the reports of the demise of Google have been greatly exaggerated.

49:41integrated uh they had a bit of a wobble in 2023 and 2024 but they do seem to be very much back in the game i mean their growth is impressive every quarter it's double digit growth on your tens of billions of revenue i mean for most other companies in this world these numbers can only be dreamed of but what they are showing is that the way that they've integrated ai into search whether it's the overviews the bullet points at the top of your results or the ai mode which you can click on and it just behaves like GPT, Gemini or Claude. It's actually boosting engagement. People are searching more.

50:20The more people search, the more ads that Google can actually show and the more money they can earn from that. So that's really what we're seeing. Google's argument has long been, yeah, we're going to lose some traffic to GPT, but the pie overall is going to grow. So maybe we don't have 91 % of global search queries anymore. Maybe we have 84%. But if the actual overall pie of queries increases, there's actually still more lucrative to them. Now, whilst the results are very impressive, there's a huge, you know, there are huge clouds on the horizon for Google. We're waiting for the results of the search antitrust remedies, which could see Google have to do several important things.

51:02It could have to sell its Chrome browser, which I'm using right now to a rival. We could see a hated rival like Perplexity or OpenAI buy that and have one of the best distribution methods for their AI technology in the world. They're going to have to share more data with rivals. They're going to lose the right to be Apple's exclusive search engine provider on Safari across its devices. And they could see their business hamstrung in a variety of ways. So whilst the results are very good for Google, They come with a big asterisk on the fact that, you know, even the Trump antitrust administrators are still going after them and want to see them broken up.

51:38So I wouldn't say that's why we saw the shares not jump 10 percent, but just a couple of percent, because everyone's waiting to see how this antitrust stuff lands on them. I'll just make one snarky comment. it's perhaps easier to make money when you just ingest the entire web and the entire experience happens on your platform versus having to send people to the pesky websites with the information. Exactly. Okay, let's talk about Tesla. Tesla had a very bad earnings report. We knew this was going to happen. But the news that I think the FT picked up on and was to me the right thing to look at was the outlook.

52:22And the outlook is bad because this big, beautiful bill has cut off EV credits and you would get a$7 ,500 credit to buy EVs in the US. Not only that, the biggest source of profit for Tesla has been these regulatory credits. So because they produce EVs, companies with mandates to produce EVs that don't meet those standards are able to buy credits from Tesla and effectively, you know, wink, wink, meet the standards. And Tesla, and that is, if not going away, it is vastly diminished. They say, this is your story. The revenue from And the credits almost halved to$439 million in the quarter from the year before.

53:11Last year, the company made$2.8 billion from these sales. And these, of course, are straight profit. So dark times ahead for Tesla. Very dark times. I mean, Tesla was worth$1.54 trillion on the 17th of December. It's now worth around$900. So we're talking about more than half a trillion of market cap wiped out. It rose to a peak because people were optimistic Musk's relationship with Trump would allow Tesla, would allow Musk to help shape policy, maybe soften Trump's opposition to electric vehicles. I don't know about you. We had a sweepstake in the office how long it would take Trump and Musk to fall out.

53:49I was vastly over optimistic at six months. A few of my colleagues said two, three, four. It ended up being four and a half. and now we are really seeing the shit hit the fan with regards to you know trump the republicans and renewable energy and electric vehicles they do not like them they listen to the other lobbies far more than them and it's hard to actually imagine a worse set of policies for tesla coming out of the big beautiful bill than what emerged as you said tax credits gone it tesla would have actually made a loss in the first quarter if it had not been for selling regulatory credits and what Trump administration has done is they haven't got rid of these emission trading systems.

54:26They've just said, if you don't abide by them, these emission standards, the fine for noncompliance is zero. So if the fine is zero, why would you bother complying? So Tesla, the market is essentially going to dry up whilst the system technically still stays in place. So it's quite a cunning way of attacking it without actually having to go to Congress and change the rules. and musk sounded different i don't know he's bounced back from a lot before but he sounded different on the tesla earnings call they were there was a lack of energy he was very resigned he said we're going to have some rough quarters ahead and even when he's talking about building millions of humanoid ai powered robots or unleashing a fleet of billions of robo taxis around the world his heart clearly wasn't in it this is you know and i know tesla and musk himself has a lot of fans to read to my right story, which might suggest this isn't the greatest company in the world.

55:21They get like a torrent of online abuse from the Teslarati out there. But as you deserve, as I deserve, especially, you know, Tesla boomer mom or whatever she's called. But we were right to point out that there were, there were these, you know, just like Google, there are these big clouds on the horizon. It's just, this seems more existential to Tesla. Because remember, the way you get to armies of humanoid robots and robo taxis is by actually making money. And you make money by selling cars and selling credits. Musk has alienated a lot of his traditional client base in Europe and America and around the world by championing these right wing causes and appearing on chainsaws, hacking the federal, appearing with chainsaws at Doge, hacking the federal government apart.

56:08So it'll be really interesting to see what they do. I mean, the board has a big decision to make about Musk and his leadership of Tesla. I mean, the company, it is him. You invest in it on optimism that he will position this company best from the future. But there's no denying that through his politics and his fallout with Trump, he's become a bit of a liability to the company. That is true. but i just couldn't see them going in any other direction especially because elon has proven time and again that when his back is against the wall he finds a way to figure it out although his back is really against the wall on this one we reported that far from looking for a new ceo uh the board is actually looking at giving him a new pay package because you remember most most of his pay got cancelled by a Delaware court, leaving him with only 13 % of the company as opposed to about 20%.

57:04And he said something quite interesting on the earnings call when he was asked by an analyst, do you feel comfortable developing AI and these robots with only 13 % control? And he said, that's a major concern for me. I've got so little control, I can easily be ousted by activist shareholders after having built this army of humanoid robots. My control over Tesla should be enough to ensure that it goes in a good direction, but not so much control that I can't be thrown out if I go crazy, were his words. Now, obviously going crazy has been a great strategy for Musk in the past, doing things successfully that others said were impossible, but that's a warning to the board.

57:45He's like, give me more shares, give me more control, or maybe I leave and focus my whole attention on X and XAI and SpaceX. And then where does that leave Tesla? Yeah, it would be in a terrible place, I would imagine, because the valuation is not based off of the car business. It's based off of everything that might come next. All right, let's end with this story, which I found interesting. Satya Nadella felt it important to write Microsoft employees about the layoffs, the morale, the culture, and the fact that this company is worth three, Oh, almost$4 trillion,$3.84 trillion. And it is laying people off, which is like truly, I'll just say it's crazy.

58:27Here it is from GeekWire. In a company-wide memo, Nadella acknowledged that what he called the uncertainty and seeping incongruence of Microsoft's situation, even with its recent job cuts, he wrote, is thriving by every objective measure with strong performance, rapid capital investments, and relatively unchanged overall headcount due to ongoing hiring. Nadella pointed out that some of the talent and expertise in our industry and at Microsoft is being recognized and rewarded at levels never seen before. And yet, at the same time, we've undergone layoffs. And here is, to me, the most interesting paragraph.

59:06This is the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value. Progress isn't linear, it's dynamic, sometimes dissonant and always demanding but it's also a new opportunity for us to shape lead through and have greater impact than ever before and yet as i read satan nadella's words i honestly cannot tell you why he felt the need to lay off uh 10 000 plus people in the recent months what is happening here now nadella is you know a very savvy man i mean he what he what he did at Microsoft was essentially take it out of its various failed consumer enterprises and really refocus it on enterprises, i.e.

59:50corporations and businesses and data centers, Azure. And that's worked out extremely well for him. But he has cut his way to success for out of the consumer business, giving him the capacity to invest in the other side. What they're seeing now is that they're going to be spending a lot more money. They, like all the other tech companies, are spending tens, if not soon to be more than a hundred billion on infrastructure every year. They also have shareholders to appease who want dividends, who want to see the share price continue to go up. And you've got to make the sums add up. So you have to take some of it out.

1:00:29So he's gambling that there are some non-AI native people in the company who can be replaced either by AI systems themselves or you can bring in cheaper younger people that are better able to infuse this technology through the company and and shake it out of its own ways i do think headcount at microsoft has actually stayed like roughly level so whilst you've had a lot of these layoffs they've clearly been hiring a lot of people as well i think mustafa suleiman now has six or seven thousand people reporting to him and just this week i reported that they poached another 23 from deep mind. You know, these people, as you well know, do not come cheap, right?

1:01:07You know, at the top end, they're getting$100 ,000,$200 ,000,$300 million. At the bottom end, they're still incredibly well compensated and it has to come from somewhere. But by sending a memo and saying it's weighing heavily, that tells you another story about morale inside the company. You know, if you're doing, you know, 15 ,000 people is a lot, you know, especially in, you know, in a smallish place like Seattle, you know, to send something like this to try and put a more human face on it tells you that people at Microsoft are not happy. Absolutely. And I think a lot of people are pointing to a couple of things.

1:01:45First, people, it seems like the games division of Microsoft has taken a massive hit, probably disproportionate. I guess if you're going to invest somewhere, I would invest in AI over games uh second there's this like thing that keeps popping up in my mentions that it's not microsoft um you know cutting staff it's basically reallocating its budgets and offshoring um do you what do you think about the offshoring idea that it's basically just hiring the same people uh just in countries with lower cost labor absolutely that's happening i mean you know with that i can't remember i read a stat the other day i may be wrong that there have been 70 or 75 5 ,000 layoffs in US tech recently.

1:02:27And those jobs haven't disappeared. Some of them have been replaced by AI, but a lot of them have moved to lower cost jurisdictions abroad. There's also been a very big trend at big tech companies to prefer contractors over full-time staff. Contractors don't get free massages. They don't necessarily get the same levels of healthcare. And whilst compared to Europe where I'm from, there are basically no employee protections out here in the States. There are more if you're a full-time employee, like your own redundancy. Whereas if you're a contractor working for Tech Mahindra or someone like that, you know, based remotely or out in India or Malaysia, you are far, far less of a burden on the company if ever there's a slowdown and they need to cut costs.

1:03:07And you're also, you know, far more flexible in terms of moving, you know, onto different projects. So I feel, I feel bad for all the people that have lost their jobs on Microsoft, but we should emphasize it's not just them. This is part of a broader trend across the technology and wider industries. And I think we should be bracing for even more of this as we start to see people trust AI to do jobs that humans were relied on for long periods of the past. Yeah, I think you're right. Folks, be careful those massages. They come with a hidden cost that you may not be fully appreciating at the time though enjoy them enjoy the massage don't uh don't feel bad as it's happening uh because gosh that's a very nice perk so uh steven morse thank you for joining us where can people find your work and that of your team you can find us go uh i think one of the ft is one of the most expensive newspaper newspaper subscriptions in the world but we're definitely worth it find us on our website mainly on our app uh and occasionally posting on social media as well All right.

1:04:11Well, thank you, Stephen, for joining. Thank you, everybody, for listening and watching. We will be back on Wednesday with, I think, what's going to be the best interview of the year here on Big Technology Podcast. So we hope you stay tuned and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.