She Wants AI To Help You Thrive, Not Just Keep You Company — Y-Lan Boureau

26:49Again, if you're looking to invest in Bitcoin but don't know where to start, the Gemini credit card makes it easy. The Gemini credit card is issued by WebBank. In order to qualify for the$200 crypto intro bonus, you must spend$3 ,000 in your first 90 days. Some exclusions apply to instant rewards in which rewards are deposited when the transaction posts. This content is not investment advice and trading crypto involves risk. The Gemini credit card cannot be used to make gambling related purchases. And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast with Elon Borough, the CEO and founder of ThrivePal.

27:24And we stopped at the break talking a little bit about how the plan for you is to have people use AI to sort of inspire them to go help others. And it's very interesting that that is your perspective because we just saw some research come out that shows that the number one use case of chatbots today has gone from idea generation to companionship and therapy. And it seems like you're not taking that path and you're trying to have an alternative where you're trying to spark human connection as opposed to have the bot be the connector itself. Why is that? So first is I'm completely okay with just about teaching you lots of techniques.

28:10I think it can work very well. But I think if you want to enlarge that first circle of people who can just learn from... First thing, lots of people can learn just from books. Those people have already learned those techniques if they're interested in it. I read so many books on this. If you read all the books, you know a lot of things already. But that's going to be a narrow set. Then you have some people who will learn just from about a little game, a thing. You can think Duolingo style. Well, OK, perhaps if something is more like bite sized, I can learn. And I still enjoy doing it in single player mode.

28:40And the thing that has been shown time and again in research is that you need some kind of accountability. And accountability works better if you have a human reference in the loop. Someone who keeps you to your commitments, someone who checks in on you and someone who like, for example, if I have an appointment with a doctor or a personal trainer or a friend, And I don't just like not show up. That's OK. If I don't show up, I have to warn them or I have to I have to like give some kind of excuse or warning or something. With a bot, if you don't show up, it's like nothing happens. You don't have this whole social expectation thing.

29:21So to leverage all this kind of thing, you need a human in the loop who's going to be to tell you, hey, you know, we were supposed to go running and you didn't come. something like this or we were supposed to live away together and you're canceling on me again and and and they remind you they first they know you in a way that like this whole premise of um upload your entire life to the bot so the bot knows you the way your friend would is like hey you already have friends they already do know you they already know you forget that in the conversation it's like why not ask your friends and your friends have your best interest at heart often and you know that.

29:56You trust that they do. Plus, you don't have this thing where suddenly the startup that you were entrusting all this, I say this as a founder of startup myself, but it's like if that startup goes under and disappears, what happens? Your friends, you kind of have more of a sense that they've known you for a very long time. They aren't going to get bought by something else and suddenly there's going to be a pivot and suddenly your data is going to be used for something else. So there's more of a sense that there's a shared flourishing objective that they want you to thrive and that you trust them, which I think is very hard to replicate with a machine.

30:40And my question is not just that it's hard, it's like why would you when one of the biggest sources of thriving is to help others? like whenever I help people and whenever someone tells me that I've helped them improve their lives it always brings tears to my eyes it's just so beautiful and it's like so deep and so touching and it's like this kind of deep emotional fulfillment that you need to feel useful and so why take that away from people when it's both more effective and kind of a win-win situation Often people forget that a lot of situations in life, there is a win-win solution. Not always, but that's one case where there really is.

31:21Also because a lot of what makes it hard for us to thrive is that we don't have the infrastructure so much for thriving. In the sense that, for example, if you want to go running, it's much easier if there's a running club in your building with your friends. If you have to study from scratch, that's an example. if you want to eat healthy and you go out and you see five fast food restaurants it's harder than if you go out and you see delicious healthy food with all good salads that's all very healthy cheap and like that's what i mean by infrastructure for thriving um now the default thing when you want to socialize what it is go get wasted and drink why don't we have stuff where like people go have tea i i don't drink so it's very frustrating for me that the default socializing thing is always to go to a bar that and especially in New York City it's so noisy you can barely hear people it's like I want to have tea parties this kind of thing it's like why don't we make it easier to do the right thing and so when I say the right thing I mean the healthy thing long term in a way that would still be fun right now there's often an opposition between being a cool person that's fun and doing something that's healthy for you.

32:37I don't think that's a necessity. I think we can have lots of things which would be fun and still be social. But for that, you need to bring everyone. And so that's why I think doing that as a team thing where someone who's helping you discover the pleasure of tea drinking as opposed to just getting drunk. It's like after that, you can all socialize as a group eating healthy food and drinking tea. I sound like Brian Johnson, but I mean, he has a point sometimes for that. So for me, that's one of the big reasons. It's like even if you could get just everyone to have that with a bot, it wouldn't fix the thing that you need your group to want to socialize in this way so that you're not the only one saying, oh, no, but it's my bedtime.

33:19I need to sleep and I don't drink and I do these kind of things. So building it as a team. So then I want to know what you think about the fact that everybody seems to be gravitating towards bots as companions or even lovers. I mean, I had an experience a couple of months ago where I was walking on the streets in Brooklyn and these two friends were talking. And this woman was talking about her conversation with Chad GPT about the type of man that she should have in her life. And I was like, wait a second, you have your friend right there. Like, why are you speaking with Chad GPT and not your friend about this kind of very important decision?

33:53And I don't think she's the only one. I think this is very common now. First thing, I think there really is a place for chat GPT and friends. When I say friends, I mean chat GPT's friends. I don't know if they're friends, but, you know, Meta AI, like all the other bots, like pick your own bot. I think people really do view them as friends. Yeah, but they don't really talk to each other. I mean, they're friends to you, but what I mean is the friend of chat GPT, like chat GPT and friends, like all the bots. So because you can use them in a very different way. They have lots of strength in terms of you can rehash the same thing 5 ,000 times and not be using up their mental capacity because they're always there.

34:31You can talk to them at 5 a.m., which you cannot always do that for your friends. Sometimes you shouldn't be doing this. People have boundaries, which is very healthy. It's all these things. That is one nice thing about chatbots is you can just go over and over and over again where a friend would just lose patience with you. Exactly. And it's there and it's like, all right, I can handle this. And also, I mean, they have this huge access to body of knowledge. For example, even outside the realm of companionship, but if I want to do some kind of deep research or something, if I do it myself, I know how to do this.

35:00It was my job. But it's going to take me a long time. I cannot just instantly scan the internet and summarize it. I cannot. It would take me time. So it's a big time saver. And just it also gives you a good sense of what I call the distribution. So, if I want, often there, for lots of cutting edge questions, there isn't a consensus. You have a distribution of opinions. And if I want to get a sense of what that is, I can ask, okay, what's the mainstream opinion on this? How established is this? And an AI system can go look at everything and kind of say, okay, this is a fraction of people who believe that.

35:39There's this other fraction that believes that. And this is how they interact. So we get a sense of like a meta view of the opinions on that question, which is very hard to get from just one person because it takes a lot of time. You need to not just read one paper, but read everything and get a sense of how they interact. So that's super useful for forming an idea. So for me, I view more like the bot as part of the pod, but you have to have your friends in the pod. And so it's very tempting to have the bot because the bot has all these very nice qualities. So for me, it's not unlike video games.

36:15Video games have been around for a long time, and they're very tempting because they give you this instant sense that you matter. I mean, often you're the person saving the world. I don't know if you've seen that movie. What's his name? Free Guy, I think. Oh, yes. Free Guy, yeah. You know, that's my father's favorite movie. Oh, really? I didn't know that. I think he's watched it probably more than 10 times. Okay, so I love that movie. That's our Saturday night activity at home is we put on Free Guy and we watch Ryan Reynolds wake up in a video game atmosphere. Yeah, so I love it. So do you remember that scene with Channing Tatum?

36:46Tell me more about it. Okay, so it's the one who he has a part. No, he's a streamer. Streamer. Right. And so he's live streaming and he is in the game. He's this Channing Tatum character and he has this catchphrase. And then suddenly he runs into Free Guy. And while they're having this big scene and he wants him to do the catchphrase. and then you hear his mom saying, hey, can I do the vacuum or something like this? Like she's in the back because he leaves and then you like see the real world and he's like this, he's just stuck in his gaming chair and he lives with his mom and she's trying to vacuum.

37:16And so it's like this juxtaposition of real life where he feels like he cannot be a hero and the video game where everyone is a hero and you matter and you're super powerful and it like fulfills all these things that life did not. So it's a shortcut, but it's a simulacrum that at the end of the day, is not really fulfilling because you don't get the real thing um so the question is are we going to get to a point where it's so good that it actually fulfills completely and then you get brand new world the soma kind of so soma is uh i've read that a very very long time ago but like the perfect drug you just you blissed out in your bed and everything's great and you don't do anything or matrix the matrix you get great stick and stuff so is that a problem One could argue this already exists.

38:02Yeah. Well, we don't have a perfect drug yet. But you get some kind of that. And so, of course, if you look for that in technology, you're going to find something that gives you a lot of things that are very tempting. Because first, a lot of these systems, they're very, very attuned to your needs. They always think you're great. they always give you lots of compliments, always tell you what you want to hear, they're always available and they don't have needs. And if you get used to this as what a great interaction should be, then it makes you less and less able to interact with humans, who have flaws, have their own needs.

38:46You have to, it's more of a give-and-take, and it's very healthy to learn that give-and-take. So for me, that's why it's very tempting, you can have a bit of it, but not get hooked on it so much, because you need to be able to again, stretch your mind, be resilient to the world sometimes pushing back. And also because if you want the whole world to thrive, which I do, you cannot aim for a world where there's no configuration networks. So for example, I think I give you that example last time we worked together, but my English teacher used to say back in high school, or I don't remember, used to say, oh, it would be great if everyone was in the top 10.

39:24It was a joke, but it's kind of the idea. It's like you cannot have everyone be in the top 10. So if everyone wants to be the top person, the only way this works is if you have a multiverse that's completely splintered, but where everyone has their fantasy world where they're the top person. So you can have that, and that's what virtual reality gives you. Like everyone has their own virtual world where they're whoever the superhero is. Or you change what you want, and you're like, I don't really need, my fulfillment is not just me beating every like getting the best of everything but it's more having my community that is happy and everyone can thrive and we can do something together and there's lots of ways to find that and so trying to move people towards this is more important to me rather than trying to indulge people into something kind of fantasy where they can get that but it's fake so you have a company that is attempting to make this happen, to sort of nudge people into moments that are into habits that would make them more fulfilled.

40:28It's funded by OpenAI. I think that's public, right? We can say that. Tell us a little bit about what you're trying to do with ThrivePAL. So it's funded by OpenAI and General Catalyst, mostly, and a bunch of other people. What we're trying to do is to give people the tools that are very science-backed, that in a work and help people discover them and experiment with them and find what works for them. So those kind of tools, they've existed for a long time, but not everyone's going to be receptive to the same one. So a very well-known one is meditation, for example. If you look at meditation, you're going to find lots and lots of research that shows that it can do great things for people.

41:06It doesn't mean that everyone is going to find that meditation is the answer to all their problems. It means it's worth trying, it's worth learning about, it's worth playing with and experimenting with. If it works for you, you keep it. If it doesn't, you try something else. So there's a bunch of these things that are powerful and work for some people. And some things that even if they don't work for you, you kind of have to find a way to do that. Otherwise, you're not going to function so well because until we get uploaded to a cloud or whatever, we live in bodies. how to take off your body, for example, exercise, physical things.

41:44We all need to do it. Yeah, exactly. So how do we get people to find something where they can move in a way that's fulfilling for them? It's going to look very different for different people. Some people like running, some people like boxing, some people. So give them a sense of, okay, this is what you need to do. You need to do some cardio. You need to do resistance training. That one is really important to me, especially for women, because for lots of women, I think they need to be toned, which is kind of a way to say that they don't want to get too bulky. I used to also not want to get too bulky, but actually you need to do resistance training because that's the only way to train strong bones and also because muscles have a really strong role in metabolism for dealing with glucose.

42:27So for lots of health reasons, people need to do resistance training, not just run. Like exercise means lifting or you can do bodyweight stuff. You can do this many ways to do resistance training, but trying to get that message out because we know it's true. The research is very solid on this. And somehow lots of people don't know this. And, you know, also one of my personal thing is people wearing foot-shaped shoes, this kind of thing where people wear shoes that are terrible for their feet, that way too narrow, these kind of things, which I think is really common sense. But somehow the message is not super well known.

43:00So what I'm trying to do, too, is to get those messages that I think are really important out in a way that can speak to people. And what's great with AI is you can iterate a lot. You can try lots of different ways. You can try lots of different voices, lots of different packaging for these kind of things and see what works and get some kind of feedback on this. So that's also what I'm trying to do. Right. But it's not easy because these are eat your Wheaties type messages, for lack of a better term. Right. It's like I it's going to take me like I have a resistance, even though I love exercising.

43:34I have a resistance to doing it. Getting to the gym is the hardest part. Once you're at the gym, it's actually kind of fun. Yeah. And so for me, like just opening an app that's going to tell me things that I need to do that don't bring me that instant gratification. There's like a pain to it. Yeah. So how are you going to do this? So first thing is, I think there's several levels of learning. The first one is even knowing that it's a thing. So, for example, if I tell you I have groundbreaking information, if you smoke, you might increase your chance of cancer. You're like, oh, I know that. Everyone knows that.

44:08That wasn't the case a few decades ago. So first, getting the information out. There's some things like the thing around the role of masterful metabolism, where I think the information is not out yet. So that's level one is like putting the information out for some of these things. even before you find it's painful to do something, knowing what it is that you should do and aim to do. So like, yeah, step one. So for the microbiome, I think there's lots of things where people are not aware of how important it is to take care of the bugs in their gut. Like the fact that 70 % of your immune system is in your gut and that it reacts so much to what you eat.

44:43And that perhaps if you have a choice between taking this antibiotic and not, and you're just taking it to be sure, like, pass weight a bit, know that there's a downside that you're going to completely wipe out all the bugs in your gut and it can cause a lot of downstream problems. So I think there's a lot of information that still needs to get out. Level one. Level two is knowing, once you know kind of like where you want to be, knowing the techniques that can take you there. I'm still not at the level of you actually doing it, but at least being aware of what they are and then you choose whether you do them or not.

45:13But learning that mapping of in this context, if I want to get there, I should do this. And so the way I'm trying to do this is we're going to build a game. So hopefully it's going to be fun and entertaining just to familiarize people with that mapping of these techniques exist and use them in this context to get into that outcome. And then how you decide to actually implement them. That's the hard part. It's still hard. There's no way to. But there's still many ways that are more like what I call meta techniques, which are about how you build a habit, how things that work for setting goals, for example.

45:51You know, you have lots of things. There's researchers at NYU who have developed the Whoop framework, which is wish outcome obstacle plan. So showing that if you set a goal, it works better to not just visualize the outcome, but also think about all the obstacles and make a plan for what you're going to do when you run into these obstacles. So lots of techniques that people can learn that are about how to make those changes in your behavior to get to the goals you want. And something that's very, very important to me, too, is often people haven't thought all that much about their values in the sense of what they value in life, what they want out of life.

46:31and often I think with AI it's especially important people often talk about the algorithms and what you're trying to learn but with any algorithm you have a sense of like this objective function what it is that you're trying to achieve for lots of humans it's not very clear they can tell you I want to make more money or something but it's very important for people to take their time to think what it is that really resonates with you what it is that you want to get out of life, which often I mentioned the thing about helping other people. It's like I myself, I have a list of things that make me cry for like things that I find deeply, deeply moving.

47:07For example, this video of Sir Nicholas Winton. Do you know who that is? No. Okay. So Sir Nicholas Winton was a British person. I'm going to butcher his story, but more or less a British person who was, I think, 20 something just before World War II. And he went on vacation in the Czech Republic for two weeks. And when he was there, that was before the Nazis arrived in the Czech Republic. And he realized that all these children, Jewish children, were going to get wiped out. And so he by himself organized all these trains, eight trains, I believe, to find families for all these kids. And he did it like a mail order catalog.

47:50Like he would take pictures of the children and then send to families in England and people could pick the kids they liked, like a male older. And he saved something like 700 kids, a lot, a lot of kids who would completely have died without him. And he just did that like himself. And he didn't really talk to anyone about it. And they just, people randomly found out like when he was 80 or something like this. And it was this BBC documentary about him, which is the part that makes me cry, that you see it's online on YouTube, where there's this BBC show, I think it's called That's Life. And he's sitting there in front, they just ask him to come.

48:30And then the presenter asks him, tell him his story. And he says, well, you're sitting next to one of these children and it's this lady. And then the presenter, I'm going to cry again. But the presenter asked them, like, is there someone else who owes their life to Sir Nicholas Winton? And then the entire room raises. Oh, man. And it's all these people that he had no idea where they had become. They had gathered all of them. And they said it was like all these people had kids and grandkids. He saved like 15 ,000 people. It's kind of thing. It's so moving. And it's the thing that really, like, shows people, like, what connecting what you want to do with meaning is.

49:06So that's a big story. but there's another one just a silly commercial for kettlebells right kettlebells exercise so you see a guy an old guy and and he and he just first it's gonna be any different from story number one but go ahead no i i know but it's like just a bad connection to him yeah i don't know i want to hear it so he goes to he's like he's this old dude and he like walks and goes to his like closet and he takes this kettlebell and he like locks it can barely raise it and then he tries and he barely does it and you see him like go back and every day he can raise it a bit bigger a bit higher and in the end he managed to raise it and at the end and you wonder and his neighbors think he's crazy and they call the cops and whatever and and then at the end you see it's christmas and he will dress up and he picks up his grandkid and he gives her a star and he raises her that's beautiful so he can she can put the star and he's like so it's like that's the thing it's like connecting what you do remembering why you do things and often the end goal is going to be something connected to people you care about or to lives.

50:08And it can be your family, like the second case, or it can be complete strangers, kids like Nicholas Winton, which he lived to be 105. And he's like, you should look his interviews when he's, I think there's one where he's 103 and just saying, he's just talking about, oh, I don't like to talk about the past so much. People talk about the past so much. I want to worry about what we do now. And he's like so humble. He's like, I like him very much, but it's very heartwarming. so like remembering why we do things why why do we care why do we want to be alive and trying to build that connection so figuring out what it is that gives people energy it's going to be different for different people people care about different things they have different values but lots of people have deep values that mean something to them it's not going to be the same for me as for you but there is something so building that connection and what i think back to ai and stuff Where AI can help is to help build a step-by-step process for how you figure out what it is that you value.

51:07Remind you to connect that to how we translate every day. If you want to be there to raise your granddaughter on the tree in 40 years, what do you need to do today and every day so that you can get there? So these kind of things. So what you're building is not – when I first downloaded the app, I was like, okay, maybe this is – because it's an app. You can go get it. You go to your website now if you want to try it out, right? Yeah, on ThrivePal.com. ThrivePal.com. ThrivePal.com, folks. And so what you do now is you download it and you sort of decide what you're interested in, some sort of physical health thing or some sort of other goal.

51:44And I thought maybe this is going to be like a therapist or a companion, but really what it is is it seems like it's more of a coach to help you thrive. Yeah, it's really more of a coach. So we're building it little by little, of course. But yeah, my goal is to build this kind of roadmap for thriving. Like you have a blueprint for how to thrive in your life, how to build these systems so that it's an upward spiral rather than just following what it is that you want to do right now, which can very quickly lead into more of a downward spiral where you're tempted, you do more of these things, then you eat too many sweets and you don't move enough.

52:19this kind of thing where you just chase the temptation instead of saying, okay, I can actually build a system so that my life improves little by little and you get to where you want to be. There's also, I just started like two weeks ago our Facebook page on ThriveBattle, not Instagram because Meta suspended my Instagram page. So for now it's like tiny. But Facebook, we still have this page. Wait, why do they suspend your Instagram? I have no idea. The systems are, you know. You don't have any pull. You can't DM Mark. All right. I contacted one of my meta colleagues, so we're working on it. But the Facebook page, we have a bunch of posts around this, trying to convey these concepts of what people should do too.

53:05Because I think for lots of people, there are very strong sources of motivation for them that can help them achieve these goals. But we need to find them, and it takes a lot of time, and that's where AI can help because AI has a lot of time. So is it do you think that the technology itself, like AI technology, is going to get so good that people are going to want to do things because I want to do these things. I feel like anytime someone's tried to build an app with these type of purposes, like even Duolingo has all these like addictive dark patterns built into them. So are you going to be able to do it on the strength of the AI technology itself or are you going to have to resort to like things like that?

53:47I don't know. You have streaks. but like Doolingo has the most passive aggressive notifications like your grandma's going to die if you don't do Spanish today. So how are you going to get people to use this? Well, there's also, you know that app Finch? No, I haven't used it before. Okay, so if you know Finch, it's trying to push self-care. It's very encouraging to me because they have streaks too but they're very like polite. They're never pushing you. They're never pressuring you. It's very supportive and people love it And it's kind of in the same mind space as what we're trying to do at ThrivePal, which is really trying to support people to build better habits in a healthy way and not kind of take advantage.

54:31Of course, there's this thing that we still need to survive a company. And it's much harder to push grilled broccoli than it is to push soda. So, yeah, that's the thing is like, how do we manage to do that? But there's lots of things that can work because it's a thing that we, so for example, there's one of the posts I did on the Facebook page is about temptation bundling, right? It's the idea of trying to harness the things that you want to do for which you're already motivated to get to your long-term goals. because sometimes you can find a way to treat yourself into doing something by using some of the things that you like doing.

55:13So, for example, let's say I want to watch a TV show. It's one of my personal things sometimes when I start watching a TV show, I cannot stop. I can always try thinking, oh, I'll just watch one episode and then I'll watch the entire seven seasons and I haven't moved from my gut for two days. You know, it's kind of things. So there's several things I can do. Either I say I don't watch a show myself alone, like someone else has to have the remote control. But something else that works very well for me is I'm only going to watch shows when I'm like at the gym. And so that kind of built this nice partnership where the thing that's painful limits the other one and the other one pulls the first thing.

55:51So trying to find this balance. And so I think for a lot of the, what you mentioned, dark parts and stuff, there's ways to leverage something that are going to be tapping into short-term motivation, but it's aligned with what you want to do long-term. So an example that actually comes up a lot is when we talk about the game design, because I mentioned we also want to do a game, which is not the app. The game is not out yet, but we want to make a game. It's going to be more engaging because you have some game stuff where you have in-game currency that you try to accumulate. But something that we're not trying to do is to have it be, to really trigger immersion when we try to keep people in there because that's not a goal of the game.

56:37We want them to come back every day to learn new stuff, but to not spend two hours. That's not, and actually that's a lot, that's very true for the gym too. Often it works better if you were to do, you know, five sessions that are shorter than one gigantic session every month. You know, it's just like repeated short things. It's more like brushing your teeth. So can we get to that brushing your teeth part? And we don't need people to like stay long. So trying to find how can we leverage these things just because even the way your brain is wired, you need dopamine to do things. Otherwise, you know what happens when you don't have dopamine?

57:11You're like, you have Parkinson's, you're not moving. So to get people to move, you have to tap into that short-term motivation. So either you find a connection with deep motivations or you ensure that, hey, I'm going to use it in a way like with temptation bundling, where it's like horses that draw a cart that I want drawn. So that's what we're trying to do. Okay. I think this is going to be my last question for you. You're creating an AI startup that basically people talk to this coach that helps them flourish. The big question is, is the value going to be within the big chatbots themselves or in, I don't know what you call it, an AI wrapper?

57:46Or is that demeaning? um sorry i don't understand like an ai rapper like uh a and the term ai rapper is you know the term ai rapper yeah yeah right an app built on top of a model i guess like to put this question a different way is there a chance that people will just go into chat gpt and say hey i want to thrive help me oh yeah and so how do you how do you um anticipate that and how do you plan for that as someone who's building an app yourself yeah no no for sure um so first thing is chat knows lots of good things but chat gpt is very permissive and not so opinionated necessarily about what's good and so we give a lot more structure as to like okay these are the things that you need to think about this is how you organize your thing these are good techniques like we give a lot more of um uh we have a strong stance on what the good directions are so that's kind of way more curated and same especially for the game where these are all going to be what we provide and if you go into our app there's this thing called instant insight which are little techniques that you can learn about I decide what's in there so it's more like this choice this editorial choice so it's like editorialized chat GPT and also the way I really ask it to be science backed and I check all the literature myself because I've read so many papers I've published in neuroscience science and like theoretical neuroscience, these kind of things about how the brain works.

59:14So making sure that this is reliable, which chat DPT is very happy giving you bogus information sometimes because some people believe it's true. And science is complicated. So I trust myself way more. So I do that work to ensure that what we put in there is in the right direction. And that's defensible. long term you mean yeah well i mean i would be very happy if chat gpt starts becoming very reliable for sure yeah uh now there's a thing it's like there's no necessary consensus you're always going to have lots of people thinking different things are more important so i have my own way of what i think is important and i think i think my way is good yeah so that's kind of what we have there and this idea of having more of a community multiplier thing for me is what's good.

1:00:07And this whole thing around the game also is for me is going to be very like unique, not at all like chat GPT. So for me, that's very different.

1:00:17But I think it's trying to be, at the same time, it's very broad because about thriving, it's way more narrow than what chat GPT is trying to do to accommodate so many different things. Yes. Okay, this is really the last question. When we met, we met a couple of weeks ago after, I think we met like maybe eight years beforehand. So you asked me a very interesting question towards the end, which is what my hope was for the world. I just want to end with that. What's your hope for the world? So, you know what I mentioned about how people have like deep motivation to see others thrive? And it's like I really hope we can get to a world where people don't think as much in terms of zero sum thing where it's all a competition.

1:01:01And if you take something, it has to come out of somebody else. But that we leverage the higher space of possibilities to encourage more human flourishing as a community, as a village, as a group of people, rather than continuing to think, how do we optimize in a very narrow way? That's often short-sighted. So for people to feel like their life has a lot of meaning, that they know what that means for them and for their friends, and that we can find these ways of being where they're not as influenced by that whole past of scarcity that we had for millions of years as humans. And then we kind of adapt to the new technologies we have.

1:01:42And we are like aware of the fact that we often are our worst enemy and we shoot ourselves in the foot ourselves. and we're going to get bigger guns like metaphorically with all this AI stuff which is going to make it very easy to have this tempting stuff coming at us and so I really want people to have all the tools so that they can be more competent and autonomous and make the right choice for them for what really allows them to thrive as a whole species, you know, long term. Yeah, definitely. I want everyone to be happy around me and everyone to be thriving and my friends to be healthy and people to know how to regulate their emotions so that we can have civilized conversation and debate stuff and everyone is kind of making music and dancing and running around this kind of thing yeah no i love it it's full circle right we started talking a little bit about the polarization and you can bring it back now that people should you know not view the world as zero sum and not allow some of the things that are trying to rip them apart do that and if ai can help us get there i think that's a much better future so thank you for sharing your vision with us thank you so much all right everybody thank you for watching.

1:02:49We'll be back on Friday, breaking down the week's news with Ron John Roy. Until then, we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.