Xi Visits San Francisco, Microsoft’s Big AI Event, Bin Laden on TikTok

0:00Xi Jinping visits San Francisco, the latest on Microsoft's new AI announcements, GitHub co-pilot. What's the story with that? Plus, what exactly is going on with Osama Bin Laden and TikTok? All that and more coming up right after this. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition, where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have a big show for you today talking all about Xi Jinping's visit to San Francisco, and then plenty of AI news and wrapping it up with some coverage of the latest social media blow-ups, shall we say. Joining us today again is Reid Albergati, the technology editor at Semaphore.

0:37It's great to have you back, Reid. Welcome to the show. It's fun to be here. Thanks for having me. I can't believe we were talking, the last time we were talking was the beginning of this Israel-Hamas war. And I don't know, it feels like it's been going on forever now. We're like six weeks in. But why don't we start with another potential conflict that's been brewing, which was U.S. and China, right? There's all this tough talk going on between the two countries. Next thing you know, Xi Jinping shows up in San Francisco and it's all love, right? It seems like that's what happened this week in his meeting with Joe Biden.

1:09Don't you think? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's really kind of bizarre. I honestly don't know what to make of it. I mean, all of a sudden, you know, it was like no one would touch China. And then all of a sudden, you know, she's in town in San Francisco and everything is different. You know, we're we're in the same room. I was actually at the Semiconductor Industry Association Awards dinner last night and the Medtronic CEO said, you know, oh, I've seen him before, but I've never seen him so relaxed. And I just didn't know what to make of that. It seems like it's now kind of OK to be cozying up to China again.

1:45And yet at the same time, if you look at the geopolitical situation, it seems like we're just inching closer and closer toward some kind of conflict around Taiwan. So pretty fascinating. Yeah, I do wonder if people like kind of took a look around, right? We started just talking about the war and they saw war in Israel and Gaza, war in Ukraine, and sort of asked, wait a second, like all this talk can go somewhere? Do we really want it to go somewhere? And what are the real differences? I mean, obviously, there are major differences between the countries. But like, is it enough to get into a massive global conflict?

2:18I wonder if that's sort of what led to this moment. Well, I'm sure everyone in the US wants to avoid a conflict, right? Nobody wants to see a war with China over Taiwan, right? It's going to be extremely deadly. It's going to be horribly disruptive to the global economy, especially if anything happens to TSMC, which I'm sure you talked about on your show before. But I think the question is, what does China want? Because their rhetoric has been very, very clear for years. we are going to forcibly reunite Taiwan with China. And I think, you know, we may not have a choice, right? So I think there's a danger in sort of, in a kind of like wishful thinking about China and thinking that just one visit can sort of change the entire course of that trajectory.

3:15Let's see what happens to their rhetoric now, right? Like, do they start going back and changing the messaging back at home? So I think it's important to run through. I think that's a great point. And I also think it's important to run through some of the things that were accomplished this week. And then we can kind of get to why this is happening now. So first of all, Biden spoke and said that the meeting was some of the most constructive and productive discussions he's had with Xi Jinping. And that they're going to keep the line of communications open. He's going to be willing to pick up the phone.

3:48Also big news that Xi signaled that China would send new pandas to the U.S. after three that the Smithsonian National Zoo in Washington had were returned earlier this month. This is from the AP. So the pandas coming back. That's symbolic, but it's big. Also in a speech, Xi said he wants to deepen the friendly ties between our two people. And another massive one, Xi also agreed to help curb the production of illicit fentanyl. that's a deadly component in drugs sold in the united states it's very interesting that he could effectively decide that the amount of fentanyl coming into the u.s is going to be reduced i didn't realize china had that much sway over the components used to make this drug but clearly that's that was a big deal they also reached a very important agreement to resume military to military communications and a scoop for you the two countries are going to open a channel to talk about AI, similar to the Cold War nonproliferation talks.

4:47This is a huge amount of cooperation, a very big turn for the US and China. What's leading to it? And this is where it gets kind of interesting. So apparently Xi needed two things from the US. He needed investment from the US to help jumpstart the Chinese economy, which has not been growing at the same rates it had been during the heyday a few years ago. But then there was another very interesting thing that the New York Times pointed out. And it's that the United States has recently put in a series of export controls that have at least temporarily crimped Beijing's ability to make the most advanced semiconductors and the artificial intelligence breakthroughs they enable.

5:29Now, I'm not going to say that AI is the core of why China and the US are all of a sudden buddy-buddy, but it would be naive to think it didn't play a significant role in trying to find some common ground, right? Yeah. I mean, I think what you're kind of saying, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, is like China's on their heels right now. They are in a vulnerable position. And so, you know, when you're in a vulnerable position, you sort of come to the table and you play nice. I think the question is, what's the long-term plan for China, right? I mean, in the short term, Sure. I mean, they can send us pandas.

6:06I thought it was sort of funny that, you know, she's quote on the pandas. He's like, I heard that a lot of people in the United States, especially children, were very sad when the pandas were leaving the, you know, the zoo in D.C. I mean, it's a gold quote. It's like, are we do we really believe this guy is like a sentimental sweetheart who I mean, the guy I mean, if you're a China scholar, like just read, read about the stuff that happens there. Right. It's a pretty brutal place inside that party. So, you know, I'm just very, I mean, again, like I want peace as much as anybody. I don't want to see, I do not want to see a war.

6:46I think it would be a terrible, terrible thing. But at the same time, like, you know, I'm a little skeptical here that this is like, you know, a huge about face in the long run. The thing about artificial intelligence that I find fascinating is that we for so long thought that China kind of had the U.S. over a barrel in terms of chip production. And now they need the United States to ease controls in order for them to stay relevant. And they realize that AI is going to be so important. So what do you think about that? It's a very quick flip from U.S. trailing to U.S. leadership position, don't you think?

7:30Yeah. I mean, I think on the chip production, I mean, I think they will get there. It's just a matter of time. And, you know, I think the U.S. There's a race right now, right? Which is like, can the US with the Chips Act diversify the chip production supply chain to an extent that that TSMC doesn't matter as much, right? That it can be that that's a huge if, right? I mean, we're talking about I mean, that's five to seven years out at the earliest, I think, from happening, which means it's totally unpredictable, right? Like, you know, this stuff is, if you've read anything about this industry, you know, just how absolutely tricky it is to build these fabs to spin this stuff up.

8:17So, I mean, there, I think there might be like a sort of buying time aspect to this, right? Which is like, you know, if we, if they can get us to take the foot off the gas, then maybe that gives them more time to build, to get their independence, you know, up and running before some conflict. So I just see this. That's how I see the world here. But I'm not, you know, I'm a tech reporter. So, you know, I only play an international relations expert on podcasts. Right. But actually, like the tech does play a huge role in the international relations thing. That's what I find fascinating. It's like you can find tech because it is obviously like building the future.

9:02You can find it at the core of almost every industry and government relations. So it just gives you this window into the world, like really on the business level that you can't have elsewhere. And business is obviously what's going to drive some of these countries in terms of their decisions. So you were in San Francisco. A couple of questions for you about San Francisco. First of all, what do you make of the fact that all these business leaders went to dinner with Xi? Obviously, you seem pretty skeptical about his good intentions. Do you think something good is going to come out of that or do you think they needed to?

9:35I was actually, let me just say this. I was trying to read the mood in the room from some of the video clips that I saw, and it seemed like almost dutiful as opposed to celebratory. Oh, totally. I mean, first of all, they pay to be there, right? I mean, this is like China is a giant goldmine for everyone. There's an anecdote I'll tell you that I thought was really telling. We, Louise Metzakis, who is the reporter who, who got us our great scoop on the, on the China Xi meeting earlier this week, along with Morgan Chalfant. Louise is a huge China buff and knows more about this than a lot of people.

10:13So we, we write a lot about China, right? And I think, you know, this is this, this fascinating area that's super important to the world and all this stuff. And I'm thinking people in tech must just be eating this stuff up, right? So right around the time we launched, I was meeting with someone who shall not be named. They were like, yeah, like my feedback to the newsletter is that I'm not really that into the China stuff. I was like, really? Like, why not? Because this is a person who like is involved in this, has been like involved with, you know, tech in China. And they said, well, you know, it's all closed off right now.

10:48And I'm like, well, yeah, but I mean, it's still hugely important to the, you know, to the geopolitical reality. And he was like, yeah, but there's like no money to be made there right now. And I was like, oh, okay. So China, like I think what my point is, I think all these CEOs for the most part is they just view China as a giant pot of money. And they want that money, and they will do what they can do to get that money. And I think some of them might be more patriotic than others. Some of them probably don't care at all about the U.S.'s position and in the long run and all that stuff. They just care, you know, they care about shareholders.

11:29And that's how I see all of this. It's like, you know, if you don't go to that dinner, you're kind of being like, you're kind of like neglecting your shareholders. That's how I see it. Exactly. Yeah. And so the mood definitely kind of felt like we're here just to be here, which is like wild to me. Yeah, we're here to make possibly, you know, if this is going to be if this is going to open up again, we better be first in line. You know, you know who did look happy? She looked happy when they gave him some Golden State Warrior jersey. Did you see this? Never seen a smile like that from this person.

12:05So also answer that's I mean, it can bring people together. Look what it did. Yeah, you know, our first contact with North Korea was sending Dennis Rodman over there with Vice. That's right. Remember all the NBA Hong Kong controversy, though? Oh, yeah. It's so ironic. So let me ask you, so did the city feel cleaner? Because there's been this whole meme that San Francisco finally cleaned up its act for Xi. Is that accurate? It just depended on what neighborhood you were in, honestly. I went downtown and I was kind of like looking, you know, looking around like, okay, what's, what's this, what's it going to be like, you know, is it going to be like a, all of a sudden it's like this sparkling clean paradise.

12:50And it was like, yeah, in parts of Market Street where there used to be a lot of homeless people, there weren't homeless people, but they had really just been moved to the tenderloin. It still smelled like pot smoke, you know, on Market Street. but then there were like you know s like black suvs and mercedes sprinter vans but it looked the whole thing looked like a mercedes sprinter van dealership like that's what my goodness that's what it looks like and then there were these weird cages thing these cage things that were up and i don't even know what they were for and i i didn't google it because i think it's more fun to just think of them as mysterious cages with like those concrete divider things from the highway like in the middle of the cages and I had no idea what they were for.

13:35And I had this like thought, I was like, I'm like, do I like this better than like, you know, crazy people wandering around the street and yelling at me? I'm not sure. Like it's a toss up. Yeah. I mean, if that's the trade off, then it's a pretty rough choice. Right. So I don't know. It's, uh, I wouldn't say they, I wouldn't say they turned San Francisco into a, into a paradise by any means. There was a quote from Gavin Newsom that got passed around a little bit this week, and I feel like it's worth reciting. California Governor Gavin Newsom, he said, I know folks say, oh, they're just cleaning up the place because all these fancy leaders are coming to town.

14:13That's true because it's true. But it's also true that for months and months and months prior to APEC, we've been having different conversations. I mean, I think the thing that really just kind of jumped out at me is like, if they want to do something about cleaning up the city, they can't. And just they didn't until this happened. It's bananas to me. It's totally bananas. I mean, it's not a permanent solution. I think also just on the San Francisco topic, generally speaking, I mean, it's like bad, but not as bad as people kind of think it is, right? It's very localized to a couple of neighborhoods that are really bad, specifically the Tenderloin.

14:54You can go to parts of the city and have no idea that there's a homeless problem, which I think is similar in, you know, cities all around the country, right? There's, there are just neighborhoods that are bad. Not, not excusing any of it. It still needs to be dealt with, but. Yeah. My wife and I were out in San Francisco this summer for about a month, three weeks, a month. And I have to say the city actually feels revived after I left mid COVID and it feels lively and the downtown was bustling again. And it did feel like, you know, a lot of the rumors had been overdone, obviously still a problem with crime there.

15:34But I mean, I just saw this video of this guy who tried to stop a sideshow in Oakland and was basically beaten within like an inch of his life. It was crazy. But yeah, I think you're right that overall, you know, the New York Post headlines about San Francisco are a little bit overall yeah in oakland is a different that is a different story too yeah i mean exactly yeah different issues and although we had we used to have sideshows down the block for those who don't know what a sideshow is it's when a bunch of guys close off like a intersection and then just do donuts in the middle of the intersection yeah or like ride on top of like get out of the car that they're driving and like sit on the hood and stuff like that it's very dangerous but also sounds like i've never been to one but it sounds kind of fun i don't know i would like to go to one as a observer very distant very like high up right like up on a balcony or something exactly not in the line of fire run over and yeah i guess i imagine i'd be kind of annoyed if it happened outside my house all the time but yeah luckily that's not the case so that would be um so i did go to web summit this this year i just came back from lisbon last night i had a good time um you we spoke on this podcast with Ron John about the decision to go after some of the comments that Patty made.

16:49And even though I didn't agree with everything Patty said, I thought, you know what, I'm not, I'm not going to agree with everything, but I'm still going to go. And when I was there, I felt vindicated about my decision to go because I do feel like one of the problems that we've had in society is that people with different opinions sort of ensconce each other, ensconce themselves in different areas of the world, whether that's geographically, whether it's different websites, or whether it's different events. And it's important to have people with different perspectives in rooms talking together because that's when you sort of have empathy and get things done.

17:20And anyway, that's my Web Summit perspective. The most interesting interaction I had was on the ride to the airport. I was with a member of the Chinese media. And we got a moment to just sit and talk about, hey, your guy's hanging out with my guy. And what do you think about that? So I like obviously just went through the whole gamut of hot button topics and some very interesting questions. Some very, sorry, some very interesting observations this person shared. So first of all, some, this person said that the way that the U.S. is viewed in China has become more negative in part because of the way that the U.S.

18:01handled COVID. And it's almost as if the U.S. has been held up as a foil to China on the COVID issue because they want to say that they did it better and that their experience inside COVID was worth it. That was one interesting takeaway. Quickly, the others. I asked about the Russia-Ukraine war and the Israel-Gaza war. And this person said that China was neutral on both. and China actually felt a historical bond with Russia because of the way that Russia and China have been allies in the past. The other thing we talked about was the iPhone. So, you know, there's this whole meme about Chinese government employees not being able to use the iPhone in the office.

18:46And this person said that that's wrong. They were using an iPhone and that the iPhone remains quite popular in China, even in this moment of tech being used as a point of national pride in China. Lastly, this person was surprised that we've banned Xiaomi and Huawei phones. And I'm like, listen, I can't use those phones. And they suggested I get one and just use it without cell service, which is actually kind of interesting. Like maybe it's worth getting one and trying the WeChat and actually seeing how these things function. It's pretty illuminating. I know I just threw a lot at you. What do you think about that?

19:23I mean, I think my first question is like, do you think that you were getting candid answers? No. Yeah. They're like the party line answers, right? Yeah, definitely. It is the party line. But it's still interesting. You can learn something from that, though. I mean, it's like, yes, even in the direction that the propaganda is going, you can be like, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I mean, I think that's, no, you answered my question. That's a good point. yeah I mean I think on the the Huawei thing which is the you know the sort of interesting tech question I am actually really curious to try that too because they have the new phones if I'm if I'm right they have their new chips right they built their like homegrown chips from like a modem from you know built by SMIC right isn't that am I right apparently these chips were so good that they had u.s officials convinced that they had stolen u.s trade secrets and this huawei mate 60 phone is apparently just flying off of shelves in china it's the latest version it sold out like immediately when it first released and i mean you look at apple sales in the region and they've fallen and people are saying that it's in the it's in the path of being replaced so so what does that tell you about the earlier question around is China going to catch up with us on chips I mean if they're able to do I mean these are these are the most advanced you know phone chips are really the most advanced chips right so I think that answers the question yeah yeah I mean I think they're pretty close I don't think I mean I thought they were still not quite hitting the same benchmarks, right?

21:10As, as like Qualcomm and, and, you know, the Apple chips, right? I mean, I'm sort of, yeah, they're not quite on par. But I think it I think you're right, like, we should be as tech reporters, like we should be trying this stuff out. I mean, I don't think it's illegal to do right. Like, it's just definitely not, you know, we should just get these things and, you know, see, see how they work, compare them. And it's also a new operating system, right? It's like an Android fork or something. Oh, is that true? Or did they build it from the ground up? I mean, because they can't use, they also can't Google.

21:47They can't use Android. Yeah, they can't. Google can't export either. So that would be kind of interesting too. What is an operating system? It does feel like we should let them use Android. Like we're so worried about TikTok over here, but we won't export an operating system. Why? Like, I don't know. I mean, I think, yeah, I think they were just trying to completely cripple them, right? You know, that's not working. I guess it's not. Yeah. I mean, at least not in China. They seem to have been able to survive. And by the way, I mean, I'm sure they are using like some IP from the US, right? And there's just no way like somewhere in there, you know, they've been trying to copy this stuff for years, for decades.

22:34Fascinating moment between US and China. Long story short. It is. It is. And you wanted to get to the TikTok question too, right? Yeah, which we'll talk about TikTok and Bin Laden. But first, let's do a quick segment on some of these big headlines in AI because I do think they're very interesting. One of the most under the radar moments in tech this week was the head of audio at Stability and AI quit because the company viewed that it's acceptable to use copyrighted work without permission. and this person, Ed Newton Rex, just said no freaking way. He called it exploitative. He said it's not acceptable.

23:13It's not fair use. And he just straight up quit the company, one of the senior people there. I'm curious if you follow this story, Rita. It just seems to me like the AI copyright wars are just starting to kick off. We're just starting to see lawsuits being prepared, people quitting. The fact that these generative models train on so much copyrighted content, it's got to come to a head at some point. Don't you think? Yeah, I have followed it. I actually have a lot of thoughts on this. I mean, one is I saw him talk at Eric Newcomer's event on, what was it, Wednesday. I think that was the day he had announced that he was, or maybe the day after he had announced that he had left stability.

23:54And my thought on his sort of, I think it's fine to take a moral stand. And I, you know, I totally respect that. I don't really know whether his legal arguments about fair use, will hold up in court. I mean, I thought I actually was sort of reading his statement thinking, I wish you had just left out this fair use discussion and just said, I don't think it's right. Like I think people deserve to be compensated. I mean, that was the compelling part of the argument to me. Because I don't, I think legally, they probably are fine to use this stuff. It's very, I think, I think that's how the courts are going to come down because copyright is supposed to stop, you know, you from, from actually making copies of people's work and, you know, completely, but this is like, you're using their work to inform an algorithm that will then make original work.

24:51And that's very similar to like how everybody operates, right? How you and I operate where we, We are inspired by everything that we see, read, hear. So I sort of, you know, that's one thought. The other thought is on whether it's right or wrong. I think that's going to become sort of a moot point in the future. Because as I've been sort of digging into this technology, like it seems to me that synthetic data is kind of the future. Like the models that are going to be used are going to be using synthetic data to train. Interesting. So that's like data that's been generated by AI and then they just train on that.

25:37Yes, exactly. Wow. the other the other observation i've made is that there are a bunch of companies that used to do you know sort of structured data um where they're the ones where they're hiring people in like the philippines or india to do labeling and things like that what they're now doing is creating unstructured data as far as i can tell where they're just asking people they're paying people good money really like up to a hundred dollars an hour i think i've i've heard um to to basically just create data what and this like runs the gamut from math like people who are like math phds right um who you know doing doing complex math problems or i mean you know i don't know some of this i want to write about so i want to be a little bit like yeah this is fascinating read but i think is totally fascinating.

26:32So it's actually a lot cheaper and even better to just create your data from scratch. The other thing is you could buy, I mean, the amount of money these companies are spending on training these data sets, they could literally just buy entire publishing houses. I mean, you don't, it's really just ultimately not going to be that much of an issue in the future, I think. So those are sort of my two thoughts. So this week, Microsoft also had an event where it basically made a bunch of announcements. It was called Ignite. It seemed like Microsoft had an event like this every other day over the past few months.

27:16I kind of found it a little bit to be a little bit of a snooze. I'm curious what you thought. Was there any actual interesting news there? I mean, they changed the name of Bing Chat to Copilot. But other than that, oh, and they also announced they're going to make their own chip. But obviously, like they had Jensen Wang on stage from Nvidia. So it didn't seem like it's a earth shattering chip effort if their number one competitor on that front is going to show up to the event. What was your takeaway? I the chip thing I want to dig into more. I think the most interesting thing I they announced in my mind was some of the the focus group data that they've gotten.

27:52And granted, this is all Microsoft trying to promote their own products. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. But I talked with Jared Spitaro, who's, you know, working on all the workspace stuff for them. He, he kind of like walked me through what they did. And I mean, basically, they, they got these people to come in for these focus groups, and do tasks with co pilot and without co pilot, to see if they were faster and more efficient. And that's me, that's how you actually want to test these products out. Because if you just ask people, like, do you use, you know, AI in your job or whatever?

28:29People are like, yeah, totally. And I love it. It's great. Cause everybody wants to sound like they're like on the cutting edge. Like, are they actually, like, is this actually changing how people work? And they say, you know, it is like, it's, you know, it actually makes your, your life easier, your job go faster. That to me was like the most telling thing. It's cause like people are using this stuff now and they have data. What I'm annoyed about is that I haven't gotten to use it. I mean, they aren't like handing out, they aren't like letting journalists in to kind of try this stuff out, which makes me sort of wonder where are we in the development phase?