YouTubers on Russia’s Payroll, Ilya Raises $1 Billion, Founder Mode

0:00A bunch of prominent political YouTubers were allegedly on Russia's payroll. Brazil blocks X? Ilias at Skever raises a billion dollars. And what is founder mode? All that and more is coming up right after this.

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0:43Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday edition, where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have so much to talk with you about today. It's the first week of September. That means all the summer news that was holding just floods out right at once. And man, that's happened this week. We're talking about a big DOJ indictment against some Russians who are funding a pretty prominent YouTube channel. We also have X being blocked in Brazil, a billion dollars going to Safe Super Intelligence, which is Ilya Sutskever's company. And then, of course, what is Founders Mode and is it good?

1:18Well, this is going to be some good stuff for us to discuss. And joining us, as always, on Fridays is Ranjan Roy. Ranjan, welcome. Great to see you. I'm feeling in Founder Mode right now and ready to go. Founder Mode. Let's get in the details. And by the way, it's crazy because we also have a week where like NVIDIA has lost$300 billion. But I feel like that happens every week at this point. And it's almost like a minor story, unless it goes down a trillion dollars. Then we'll dedicate an emergency episode to it. But I think it will just bounce back up$300 billion. Okay, so let's just get to the story that I think is the most interesting of the week, which is that the DOJ had this indictment that it published or unsealed.

1:59and it's against the people funding a YouTube network called Tenet Media. And Tenet Media, for those unfamiliar or for those recently familiar, because it's now sort of exploded into the public consciousness, is like one of these YouTube channels that was there for like effectively independent thought and free speech and pushing back against mainstream narratives. And it was composed of a bunch of conservative YouTubers, including for a while Dave Rubin, but also Tim Poole, Benny Johnson, and a handful of others. And what did the DOJ indict the founders or the funders of this channel for? Not the YouTubers, but the people putting the money in?

2:41That the money was coming from Russia, and that basically the Russians had had RT, this Russian state-funded network, banned in a bunch of Western countries, and de-platformed in a bunch of Western countries. And they needed a new way to influence public opinion there. And so they decided to go with this covert methods. And I'm writing about this for big technology as we speak. The story is going to be out today on my sub stack and then later on LinkedIn. But it is a fascinating story about how Russia has basically found a new card in its, or a new page in the playbook, shall we say, where it's just going to try to influence American and Western public opinion by paying the thought leaders, I don't know whether to parrot its views or try to elevate those that it believes are on its team.

3:29But these people are definitely getting the money. I mean, Russia's getting its money's worth. And there's this one clip that's been circulating online where Tim Poole, who's one of the channel members, he calls Ukraine the greatest threat to the United States and the world and demands an apology to Russia. Now, I think it's fair to have different opinions on this Russia-Ukraine war and the invasion of Ukraine. However, this type of covert influence to me is just absolutely bananas. And YouTube, I think, rightly took the channel off the air on Thursday. So Ranjil, what's been your read on this situation?

4:06And how significant do you think Tenet Media is in terms of changing public opinion about Russia-related issues in the U.S. and in the Western world more broadly? Well, it feels like we're back in 2016 again. Russia, disinformation, elections. I mean, these are themes that I was actually surprised seem to be out of the conversation for the last, I'll call it six to eight months during the run-up to the election. And now we're back in a big way on these topics. And this, I think, is very important because the idea that, you know, Russia is able to pay this third party company, Tenant Media, or essentially a front company to a number of influencers that then post these type of comments where it's there's no connection, at least publicly back to Russia.

4:58Whereas typically in the influencer economy, obviously, every brand who's trying to advertise through an influencer has to go through a ton of hoops, has to disclose paid promotions. Influencers are regularly kicked off platforms for not following those rules or shadow banned explicitly for not following those rules. So the idea for something very important like geopolitical conflict that influencers like Tim Poole and others are able to accept money to promote very specific messages, I think is a huge problem for these platforms. And I'm glad YouTube took them down. Yeah, it's very interesting because it's, yes, it's Russia disinformation.

5:42But in this context, it's not, you know, a contentious election result that people are mad at Russia for swinging. swinging and it's more just like, oh, this is like a crazy story that these influencers got paid directly and they got paid a lot of money. I mean, I looked up what a typical YouTube video would get in terms of ad spend and it's something like, let's see, like maybe$12, you know, for every like 10 ,000 views and these YouTubers were getting$100 ,000 per video and some of the videos on the Tenant media channel, we're getting like 7 ,000 views. Okay, that doesn't make any sense. And I think that what's been interesting about this is that effectively, both sides of the political aisle united and said that this is ridiculous.

6:32And they should have been, you know, the commenters who are like calling themselves victims, and they may be technically be victims, you know, in the victim and sort of criminal terminology. But these people should have known better. And everybody can see it and you don't want to have people who are, I don't know, effectively stooges for the Russian government out there influencing on its behalf and not disclose that type of thing. And so, you know, in that context, I think it's been very interesting to see the reaction. And to me, like one of the interesting things has just been like the denial from some of the influencers in terms of like being totally surprised that this is where the money is coming from.

7:14And I write about this a little bit in my big technology story that'll be out when this show is out but like there was one of the commenters commentators who was like pretty dubious about the funding and the russians effectively made up this sort of very wealthy individual edward gregorian and the person's like can i see a press release an interview a linkedin profile anything with him and what the Russians pass back is this one pager about him and it has like his name up top and you know he's sitting in a private plane and looking out the window and you know it's basically saying that he's upset at mainstream media bias and misrepresentation because it's hurting some of his investments but of course he's not found anywhere else in the world and they like sent the commentator this this commentator this one sheet and he was like okay i'll take the money it's crazy i think that is why we're seeing alignment between both sides of the political aisle because every other uh online voice or influencer is probably pretty pissed because they know the economics as you just said of how this all works and while people are trying to sell $5 a month subscriptions to their newsletter or rack up 12 bucks for a YouTube video and get that has thousands of views.

8:38And then they're seeing a Tim Pool or whoever else getting tens of thousands of dollars for one video. They know something's up. Tim Pool knew something was up. And to not question that, I think is what is raising the ire of everyone around. But I think that point of the victim complex, to me is pretty infuriating. Like the idea that you were duped when you're being pushed to promote very specific messages for way too much money that don't make any sense in any other context. I think it matters. But I also think it is a indictment of media in general right now, because I mean, the fact that this tenant media was supposedly funded by a billionaire, and then you were told to push a specific message and that wasn't the red flag enough.

9:28That everyone's like, oh, well, that makes sense. Billionaire funded media that is telling me to say something specific. I'm good with that. A lot of media has already moved to that level where that part people wouldn't even question or thought was completely okay. Right. And so like a lot of people are like, was this actually a good investment by Russia? Because a lot of these commentators would probably be saying the same thing anyways. And I think that they were given effectively free reign to say what they wanted to say. But like the influence was sort of wielded in some other ways through the channel.

10:04So I was just like looking through some of the examples. And some of these examples are crazy. So first of all, there's that pool clip that I mentioned earlier. earlier there's also the russians uh pushed them to uh create a video tying the terror attack in moscow to ukraine even though like isis was claiming responsibility at that time they're like no just say it was ukraine right there was also a example where rt employees actually got access to publish videos directly to the channel according to the indictment and and here's one of my favorite ones which was they uh the russians asked the channel to publish the video of tucker carlson fawning over a russian grocery store oh this is good there was some like pushback like like are we shilling too much and they're like all right fine we'll just we'll push it out as well i mean this is some crazy stuff this is the problem though so now you know now the world knows that certain commentators are accepting money from Russia, whether they are unwitting idiots or whatever the term is or not, useful idiots or not.

11:16And that is influencing what they're saying. And maybe they would be saying it otherwise. And maybe they're only saying it a bit stronger now because of the money. So one would assume they should not be trusted anymore. But I don't think that's going to happen. I mean, I don't think, again, Tucker Carlson flew to Russia and fawned in the grocery store so much that even the Russia Today RT people said it was not believable or it was too much. and he, I guess, is doing fine. He's certainly viral now or racks up millions of views, whether he's popular or not or actually has influence is a different question that we'll debate a little bit later about the influence of media in general right now.

12:01But I think that's kind of the sad part, that I don't think this is going to actually affect the reputation of most of these people. I disagree. I think that the difference is that it's been shown that these guys have been paid. by russia and like and and we're you know effectively too stupid or too disinterested in finding out where the money comes from and you just lose a lot of credibility when you're when you're there because like they're out there now like let's say this is by the way this is all predicated on the doj's charges being proven uh so we'll put that out there but like let's say they're proven um you you have these folks who are out there saying that they're the victims here they've taken out unworldly you know amounts of money they've talked about how like they are so surprised like where this money is coming from and they're asking people to trust them on other stuff now there's going to be core groups of fans that are going to be like all right i'm still with you but i i think otherwise like there there's a chance that like they will be looked at as clowns from now on.

13:07I completely disagree. I think a grifter, the very nature of grifting involves grifting and getting money from somewhere. And there's kind of this unspoken arrangement, because these are entertainers. They're not, yes, plenty of people take them seriously. But in reality, I think they're still genuinely entertainers, and they're getting paid from somewhere, whether that's selling supplements, whether that's taking money from a geopolitical foe, whether that's just simply branded endorsements, whatever it is there, whether it's getting a hawk to a girl getting paid by Jake Paul's media company that his, you know, like that any one of these scenarios, the person is getting money from somewhere.

13:53And I, I, I think a Tim pool or a lot of these people, yes, you could somewhat, a small group of people might consider them serious commentators or even quote unquote journalists. But I think most people are just like, they are entertaining and they kind of validate what I'm already thinking and they're good and angry about it. And that's how this, the whole grifting economy works for better or for worse. And it's kind of depressing, but I think that, uh, I don't think they're going to going away or going to take any kind of reputational hit. Maybe so. Uh, but I also think we're bearing the lead here a little bit, which is that tenant media is not the only channel that's operating this way.

14:38And I think that most of the media missed the fact that there are multiple operations like this, that the DOJ just came out and said it, and it hasn't really been picked up. So the DOJ in its indictment said the RT employee running this project actually manages, and I'm quoting from the indictment, multiple RT covert distribution channels in the United States. And the RT editor-in-chief has also boasted that the company has an enormous network, an entire empire of covert projects that is working with the public opinion. So this is just one. And I think it's important to state, RT effectively banned the platform when Russia invades Ukraine.

15:24Do they just fold up their cards? No. they try to do these covert operations which we've just learned about one of them and like you mentioned it's impossible for platforms to pick this up because everything is done behind the scenes the recruiting the payments the editorial direction usually in discords or in text messages or on whatsapp signal and it's very very difficult to pick up so now we know about one of them but the doj is saying there are multiple so my question for you is and obviously this is speculation. How far do you think this goes? Oh, I think this goes incredibly far. There's so many times where, especially on Twitter now, and actually for a long time, there's just certain reactions to certain stories that are so over the top or have such a very specific bent.

16:14Even during the Olympics, the whole boxer is a female, male, like that whole thing felt like there was, there's an extra push to make that story a story story rather than just, you know, something fleeting that a few people are arguing over, but really rise to the top. And this is something that I mean, having looked at this stuff a lot, especially back in like 2016, 17, and just algorithm media in general, all it takes is a little bit of a concerted push. And that's how these platforms still work. So there's still, I mean, and you have, it's a combination of you have this kind of operation that's paying a influencer to spread a very specific message who already has a following.

17:02Then you have, you know, have you ever seen those like photos and videos of those click farms of people with a bunch of phones? I actually, when I was in Taiwan, one of my Uber drivers had 10 phones on the dashboard. And I asked him and he said, he just scrolls and likes TikTok videos and is paid to do it. And like, he was just like, yeah, yeah. You know, whenever I'm in between rides, I just sit there and make money this way. So like, this is, this is happening. This is everywhere. So on both sides, you choose your focused. I want to spread a very specific message. I have two levers to pull. I have the influencer side who already has a following, and then I can juice those numbers and posts with ClickFarm.

17:44It's a reminder that so much of the anger and rage or just conflict on these platforms is definitely manufactured. And a lot of people fall into it. And that's why everyone should remember, if you're getting a little fired up on any kind of platform, probably there's some unseen force that's pushing you and it's in their benefit. And I don't think I sound a little conspiratorial there, but I genuinely believe it. This is going to be the most conspiratorial episode of Big Technology Podcast ever. Because I'm like wondering who else is getting that money from Russia. Could it be one member of the All In podcast?

18:21No, I wouldn't say that. Well, no, but I am positive that there is also very left wing influencers who are also receiving whether directly or indirectly money from Russia. And this is not trying to both sides. And not just Russia, by the way. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, anyone who's just because sowing any kind of division and conflict is the most obvious thing in the interest of a lot of these countries that have budgets for exactly this kind of thing. And again, it's something that the information warfare like this has been executed by every country forever. This is just the battleground now. Are you telling me the core strategic error of the big technology podcast was trying to go cool headed and nuanced because we would never attract nation state funding in that way?

19:14How do you know I don't have a wire transfer incoming from the axis of evil right now? The Russia to Ranjan connection. I think it all makes sense now. All your positions. All my positions. Very controversial positions you've done. Generative AI is reaching a trough of disillusionment is a narrative that I was specifically told to push by Putin himself. Yes. Well, congratulations. I mean, if you are making that money, I'm happy for you, Ron John. I'm glad we've provided a platform for you to get rich from bad actors. It's everybody's dream. Few can live it. Few can live it. Okay, so there's another very interesting social media story, which is that Brazil has blocked X.

20:03X is like a very big platform in Brazil. I think it accounts for, I don't know, in the neighborhood of 10 to 20 % of X's users. And now it accounts for 0 % of X's users because a judge in Brazil has blocked X. Basically what happened is that this judge had been given leeway by the brazilian government to demand accounts are removed when they sort of threatened democracy in brazil and brazil had like a run-in with the higher balsanaro uh who like was somewhat anti-democratic shall we say and this judge is being given uh leeway to suspend his supporters and people who would like threaten democratic institutions in brazil So sending requests into Twitter or X to remove them.

20:56And Elon Musk, who's Mr. Free Speech, has been like, you know what? I'm not going to remove these folks. And what you've gotten is basically the judge said, okay, well, I'm going to arrest your employees in Brazil. And Elon said, okay, our employees in Brazil are leaving. And then the judge shuts down X in Brazil. And there it goes. So I'm curious to hear your perspective on this. I tend to feel like Elon was in the right for standing up for the free speech in that country. I'm curious what you think on this front. I, this is a tough one. I feel, yeah, in general, a lot of these type of situations, especially with Elon Musk, I might lean in the opposite direction of what, where he's going.

21:47But I think it's fair that, you know, to shut down the platform over specific accounts that were deemed by one judge to be distributing information is a problem because like, and this is the issue with disinformation in general, who is deciding what it is, there needs to be some kind of process around that rather than someone just jumping in. But on the other side, I think these kind of threats being real from governments, I do, I actually think is a good thing. And I know, I mean, I almost, as I say it out loud, it's uncomfortable for me to say, because it can obviously always go in the complete opposite direction.

22:29But I think we saw that, and we talked about this around the arrest of Pavel Durov last week, like the idea that you can run a platform and just have zero accountability for what happens on that platform is not correct in my mind. And even Section 230 does not prevent you from anything criminal going on, which is the telegram situation. I think this is more around not purely criminal action, but what, again, a judge has deemed disinformation. But I think just accountability for you run this platform, you are somewhat accountable for what's going on on it, I think is a good thing and good precedent to set.

23:11Yeah. But on the other hand, you do have like the threat of these governments bullying a platform into sort of, I don't know, I mean, just removing anybody they don't like. I mean, the founder of said platform does exactly that. It bullies people on the platform, promotes specific ideologies on the platform. Yeah, but two wrongs don't make a right. I don't know. Maybe we should all go on Blue Sky and Threads, and then it'll all be okay. But yeah, I think, yeah, the two, well, actually, I'm going to go with, in this, sometimes two wrongs do make a right. That's my controversial opinion for this Friday.

23:52Man, just Bolsonaro just throwing that money into Ranjan's pocket, and that's what's happening. He told me to say that. Yeah, I think it's a reminder that, I mean, Twitter has always been directly involved in politics, especially in the early 2010s. And I think it's just a reminder that when the platform has the power to still drive politics. Remember, after Bolsonaro lost, there was, again, a January 6th style movement driven primarily by Twitter that, you know, made the push the narrative that the election was stolen. And I'm sure there was plenty of plenty of untoward actors involved in that as well.

24:36So I think a platform having a bit of accountability is a good thing. Yeah, I mean, like, if you're going to take the Brazil side here, it's basically like maybe their democratic institutions really are being threatened. And when they are, you sort of need to take steps to protect them. Because if you don't, and they go away, then you're in authoritarian, real authoritarianism. And maybe it should be the government's decision when it comes to those type of things. but yeah more broadly like a you know i i do i still feel that this is an unjust suspension of the network i mean of course i'm coming at that with american values which is like one that does sort of um support free speech and people's you know ability to dissent to what the government is doing um and to say ridiculous things and not to like you know have I don't know, their legal rights taken away.

25:35Even though it's like not really a legal right to post on Twitter, but that's a story for another day. But I do think there's something here that we're seeing like, you know, a lot of these platforms for a very long time have like thumbed their nose at governments. We talked about the Eric Schmidt thing, right? Like, do whatever you need. If it doesn't work out, no need to apologize. It didn't work out. If it does work out, then you're going to clean up the mess and figure it out later. And that's long been the mentality. And now you're starting to see so many tech companies kind of slam into the wall there, including Google losing its DOJ case, including Pavel Durov being arrested in France, and now the extension to Twitter.

26:15Not all these situations will be fair. And I do think there's something to be said for tech companies standing up to governments when they are overreaching and sort of then trying to clean up afterwards. But there's always a balance here between what the platforms want to do and sort of the rules of the road. And I think we're starting to see a collision. Well, I do think just to check, hold on, has Twitter actually been completely shut down in Brazil? Yes. And if you use a VPN to access Twitter, you can be fined thousands of dollars in Brazil. Okay. Because it's a real deal shutdown. I still feel part of this.

26:53I mean, And again, to his credit, in terms of, you know, creating a story, which is, I feel, Elon's greatest power, that this started with, you know, take down a few accounts. And the first thing was Musk made this a big deal. And yes, you know, obviously, like he could have or could not have taken down the accounts. But the idea that like it started with, OK, now we are going to close our Brazil office. and it was unclear, at least in the reporting of how many people were employed in said office, but like, you know, it was, we're going to shut down our office, uh, and then escalating it. And then the judge shut it or then, uh, the order to actually shut down the service.

27:35And I agree that the idea that, uh, yeah, the$9 ,000 daily fine for anyone using a VPN is, is pretty nuts but i think uh this elon wanted this because twitter the business is not doing very well so jumping on anything that turns into a big kind of like free speech brouhaha is still a good thing for him yeah but if you lose hundreds of millions or yeah i don't know tens of millions of your users. That's good. I think it's probably not going to make or break Twitter's business right now. And again, if you look at it, exactly. And if you look at any social media platform, it's always when you look at advertising revenue, the U S is a U S user is just multiples of you.

28:27Like what usually they'll call it rest of world is probably usually like 8, 10, sometimes 20x what users, especially in emerging market economies are. And Brazil's economy is not great. So there's not a robust advertising market right there. So you have to imagine it's almost like better for him to create this and let Twitter get shut down in Brazil, rather than the business impact of what that would mean for Twitter. I will say, as opposed to something intentional, it just seems like Elon is used to like the Elon School of Diplomacy kind of working for him, where he just sort of like bullies and pretends he's above the law.

29:05And it most often works out, although not always. And it just didn't work out here. Like he probably could have avoided this by being less antagonistic to the judge. But I still think the judge would have wanted to ban the accounts that he was banning. And that ultimately would have been a problem for Twitter. Anyway, this is just one of those issues that's like, it's just extremely tricky to sort out and have like a good or bad opinion on it's complicated do you remember that facebook council that was supposed to like yeah the oversight board the oversight board whatever happened to that uh for for context for listeners there was the uh facebook had created the oversight board that had like a bunch of very interesting luminaries i'm trying to remember who was on it and they were supposed to kind of make the final calls Wait, who was it?

29:58Alan Rusberger or something like that. Oh yeah, from The Guardian. Yes. It was just the most kind of hilariously PR-driven thing for such a difficult, nuanced conversation to try to have around what is or isn't disinformation. Never really had any kind of power. And just a reminder that people have been trying to come up with some kind of solutions for this forever. and no one has figured it out yet. So one of the interesting things that's emerged in the aftermath of this Brazil thing is people trying to figure out how big and important Brazilian Twitter actually is. And Ryan Broderick had a post in Garbage Day talking a little bit about how we don't really know anymore.