409: How to Use Your First Home to Fast-Track Wealth

26:39And there were beautiful hardwood floors underneath. Okay. Right. So now like you might find a really wonderful surprise. Like I did the whole laminate. We had a concrete under the carpets and we just put in a really highly durable laminate because I was by then thinking, well, we're not going to live here forever. I want something really durable for when the renters are clopping through the house kind of thing. If you're looking at a house that was built maybe in the 70s, the 60s and 50s for sure, and it's got carpet and floor vents, pull the vent cover off and then just kind of peek around the carpet.

27:16You can see hardwood if it's there. You can see plywood if it's there. And I do this when I'm going through houses with clients. I'll just go, ooh, there might be hardwood under here and you peel it up. You're like, yep, there's hardwood. I can't guarantee what shape it's in. I can't guarantee that it's all over. Please, please don't pull up all the carpet. However, you can get a good idea of what's underneath the carpet just by peeking. Yeah. Can I amplify that? My favorite things to turn from ugly to unugly, first and foremost, is landscaping. The curb appeal in terms of, especially if you're younger, the stuff that we can do, and it's actually fun.

27:55Landscaping stuff, my first job is mowing yards. So I can push a mower around. I can pull weeds. I can, you know, if you're newly married, like you can do the first garden bed and we literally planted my grandmother's bulbs, right? There's still hollyhocks at that first house from my grandmother's garden. And so you look up and like, that's really inexpensive for the amount of value you just added to the house. Paints probably right after that for me and flooring, but like the countertop, can I come back to the countertop? for the entire time that we lived there, right? From 2001 till we started renting it in 2004, we kept that pot on the counter.

28:34And then we're like, we're making rental. And I'm like, someone's going to move that pot. And there's this like, someone had clearly put like a scorching hot cast iron skillet. It was just a dead solid circle burn. And I was like, well, maybe we should look and see how much it cost to fix it. I think it was$65. We got a remainder countertop that was at Home Depot on sale. It was only like one stretch, had someone install it. It was like a hundred bucks. And I was like, man, we could have lived with a pretty countertop instead of a weird bowl on the counter the entire time. But like those little cosmetic things, putting up, you know, new tile in the bathroom, they when you're young, they could be fun.

29:12I don't do that anymore. I want to pay someone to do it. But in the beginning, like you're adding so much value to your future home that you want to sell or rent and building equity that is just priceless. That's one of the fastest ways in. But I don't do structural stuff. I don't even like to do that now when we do real flips. I don't like anything behind the walls when the inspection report comes back. AutoTrader is powered by auto intelligence, the hyper-personalized way to buy a car. AutoTrader's tools sync with your exact budget and preferences to tailor the online car shopping experience totally to you.

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32:41Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. When I think back on past holidays, the gift I remember most wasn't expensive at all. It was this lumberjack looking plaid winter coat my grandmother gave me when I was little. It smelled like her house, mothballs. It was a little too big and it made me feel safe in a way I didn't understand yet. I wore it everywhere until the fabric wore thin and the zipper gave out. I always wish that it lasted a little longer because what I really miss is the feeling of how protected she made me feel. And that feeling is why I turned to PolicyGenius.

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33:39Don't wait until next year. Give your family the gift of security today with PolicyGenius. Head to policygenius.com. Let's dive in a little bit deeper on the high interest rates question. I would love to hear about your opinion on buy downs, refinancing, and I'd also love to hear your opinion on this emerging trend, I think, or theme that's really exploding popularity around creative financing, specifically with assumable or seller financing notes. How applicable do you think any of those strategies, buy downs, refinancing, or creative finance are for first time home buyers? If you wanna know how to sell a house, look at professional sellers, and those are home builders, right?

34:19They're highly motivated to sell. They're looking at their bottom line and they're gonna use every trick in the book. So right now, if you're cruising a new construction, they're on a timetable. They have to sell. There's a cost of just letting it sit. There are deals to be found. And they were some of the first people to start asking us about our low mortgage rates. They immediately were the first to put those sign writers on. So I'll just do, let's do mortgage buy downs. And then let's talk about maybe some of the other creative stuff. The mortgage buy down, like in any conventional transaction, if they are willing to do concessions, you may be able to negotiate a buy down.

34:55So let's just say that you are looking at a mortgage rate of six and a half percent. You'd really like to see that be five and a half percent. That's going to fit in your budget. So you can go into the negotiations with the seller at that point and say, your agent would ask, would the seller be willing to buy down the mortgage by four points? So a point equals one quarter of an interest rate. So to go from six and a half to five and a half on the mortgage, that's four points. The point is roughly going to be 1 % of the loan. So if you're buying a$250 ,000 house with a$250 ,000 mortgage, each point would cost$2 ,500.

35:38So if I'm having to come out of pocket for 10 grand to do it, I may not be doing it. But if I can talk the seller into doing it, right, because they've got, concessions are pretty normal now because like there's not a great market. They're much more willing to negotiate. could we get you to do$10 ,000 to$12 ,000 in buy-downs? And it's up to whatever the mortgage will allow it. Boom, like think about, I can't do the compounding and all the charts in my head, the amount of interest savings and the monthly savings from buying down a full percentage point on your mortgage over 30 years. So most agents don't understand it well enough.

36:15Like you really have to make sure that you're working with a great agent and then walk through that and say, hey, this is something I want to look for because I can go from a six and a half to a five and a half. I want to do that. And I would rather do that than have them give me the$10 ,000 to redo the flooring. Because what can you do? That mortgage rate, maybe they never go down. Now you've got a really great cost of money. You can save up and put in new flooring. That can happen over time on a first house. But you can't go back and buy down the mortgage afterwards that I'm aware of. You would have to go through the whole refinancing process, which has its own cost attached.

36:55So what did I leave out of that conversation or where would you want to go deeper before we go to other techniques? Yeah, I guess. Well, first of all, I want to observe, you made a really good point on the new home construction front. There's 700 ,000 or 750, something in that number of new construction, single family residences hitting the market in 2023. This all started last year. And so there's going to be a lot of competition. We're actually seeing that it's less competitive to buy a new home. It might even be able to buy a new home for cheaper than an existing home of the same square footage in many parts of the country right now.

37:28And I think people are afraid to negotiate with these folks. I think that that's an awesome observation. I'm particularly interested perhaps in the... I'm a seller. I use an FHA or maybe a VA loan on my property. It's 300 grand left on the note. My property is worth 450. Talk me into letting you assume the mortgage. That's scary. Should I do that? Is there a consequence to me? Why should I allow Jay to take over my 3 % existing mortgage on this deal? Or how do I noodle on that and think through it? Well, I think you have to first find out if your mortgage is assumable. Like a lot of, I believe the VA loans are.

38:12And it can be disclosed and negotiated. A lot of people do subject to, which is something I'm not qualified to go deep into or move it into an entity. I think the biggest danger is when, if your name is on the credit history and someone else is making the payments, you have to be very careful. So if the mortgage can be assumed and moved into the buyer's name, that's a different story. Like right now, I would rather offer under financing if I'm a seller and I've got 2%. Like if I can make that work with the lender, I'd rather work out something along those lines and have the arbitrage. So maybe as a first-time home buyer, I'm looking more for what are the homes that I can identify?

38:55Your agent can ask the title company about, I think one in five homes is free and clear. Maybe slightly better average, I think it's 27%, are free and clear. like those owners, right? And it'll also be an older house, most likely. This is someone who's been in there. This is probably their last home. The odds that they will owner finance it for a period of time are much higher. And with no mortgage, there's zero issues with your mortgage. So I steer clear, like on the assumable, like you're getting into the technical side, like I'm showing up with my money down and some of the creative financing stuff.

39:31I just like, I want to make sure that I'm not, The downside of screwing it up is so high, I'm cautious going in. Okay. Well, several times now you've said very casually, get your agent to talk to a title company. Get your agent to do these types of things. I think you are – the privilege of having you on the show here is your incredible depth of understanding of working with good agents, over 180 ,000 of them at Keller Williams. And you have – in your book, you cover this pretty in depth as well. I love the little history that you give of why the agent developed because no longer do we have to fight each other over parcels of land, for example.

40:11I thought that was a fun anecdote. But walk us through the process that you have in place for finding a great agent to work with you as a first-time homebuyer. I'm trying not to disqualify every agent out there, but if I have my druthers, even as a first-time homebuyer... I'm an agent. I am going to say, go ahead and disqualify some of those. We're asking you, how can I find a good agent? Because not all agents are good agents. And I am an agent. I'm not a realtor. Realtors cannot talk smack about other agents. I don't have that limit on my conversation. But there are a lot of agents who are very dangerous out there.

40:47So I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I want you to share the ways to find a good agent because they're not all good. The clues are, I think, for me, I would ask, I would interview more than one. Um, the research shows that I think 80 % of buyers, um, are going to take the first or second agent they meet. So unlike almost every other area of our life, we're really not being a shopper. We're just being a buyer. Like, and so I think doing your due diligence and making sure you get referrals to at least three and interviewing all three. And a great agent's going to like not want to walk out the door without you signing an agreement.

41:28it. That's just part of the package. And you can set it up as like, I'm interviewing three. I'm interviewing April, Scott, and Mindy. And I will let you know within 24 hours to like, you can set expectations and I'm going to do this. And someone won't even meet with you. And I'm fine with that. You deserve to do your due diligence. So I think first off, find someone you believe that can serve you and communicate well with you. I have a strong bias for transaction history, not volume of dollars sold. An agent that's had to do a lot of houses, every transaction is its own puzzle to solve. And the more puzzles they have solved, the more problems they've dealt with, the better they're going to be capable of serving me.

42:09My wife has had over a thousand clients. That's a lot of times either writing in the driver's seat or shotgun sheet on how a transaction goes right or wrong. And she still works with first-time homebuyers. And a lot of those agents do. We don't want to say, oh, they won't want to mess around with me. Scott works with hundreds of people a year. The agents I know, and that's why they all gave their time for our book to give us their wisdom. One of their happiest jobs is helping someone buy their first home. Even though the price point is low, they might be creating a client for life. And we just merged our team with the first agent to ever join Keller Williams, a guy named Gary Gentry.

42:49He's literally served over 40 years, like in some cases, like four or five generations of buyers. Like when you catch them early, like you could be looking at a lifetime supply of happy clients that aren't interviewing other people because, hey, in our family, we just worked with Mindy or whatever that is. And you've built that trust. So I want that top agent if I can get them. I'm okay working for someone on their team. It doesn't have to be them personally. I just want them to be supervisory and engaged in the relationship, especially if something goes sideways. And that can be on you to say, hey, you know, Mr.

43:27Sub-Agent, I know you work with Mindy. That's great. If something goes wrong, how does Mindy help you? That's just a question you can ask. You know, on our team, we have a daily huddle. Like, there's not 24 hours that's going to pass if something goes sideways where Wendy can't lend her experience to a newer HMR team. So first off, interview two, if you have to have a bias, have it towards someone who's got some transaction history. And I think the third one is like, is this someone you're going to want to spend time with and can communicate clearly with you? If the generational gap between some of the top agents and first time bone buyers may be too big to bridge, which is why you might be working with someone on their team.

44:08But I also know some really successful people that are in their third or fourth year, but like in their first year, they sold 50 houses and their second year, they sold 75. They've got great transaction history. They know that market and younger realtors that are successful. Right. Again, transaction bias. They're successful. They're selling a lot of houses. They also will know the first time home buyer segment really well. One of the key things that I want to underscore that you said is, do you communicate well with this person? As an agent, I have to communicate with other agents. Once we have a house under contract for you, Jay, my buyer, I have to communicate with Scott, the listing agent.

44:51If Scott never answers his phone, I still have to communicate with him. But when you are trying to get in touch with me and I never answer my phone, I don't call you back. I don't text you back. I I don't email you however you're contacting me. That's hugely frustrating. If you can't even get me on the phone before we're under contract, you shouldn't try to pursue me. You shouldn't have to pursue me. You should be able to get in touch with me all the time. And when you can't, that's a great sign that I'm not the agent for you and you should move on. I'll make one thing in there. Anytime, all the time.

45:27I'm also okay if they set proper expectations. Hey, you know, from eight o 'clock at night to eight in the morning, nothing is going to change about the transaction. So if you call me at 830, just understand I will be promptly returning your call at 815. If they set expectations for when they have a blackout, I can respect that. But I don't want to be wondering, do they even get my message? So that, again, is part of that clear communication, around how are we going to communicate? How are we going to stay in touch? So that like there's so much anxiety in the first home transaction. I don't want to be living there for long.

46:02Does that seem fair? Yes, yes, absolutely. And I actually do that when I record this podcast and I tell everybody, even the other agent, I'm unavailable for this set period of time. But again, it's all about setting expectations. And that's after we've been able to have a conversation. But yeah, there are so many agents that my number one tip for any agent that's getting started, pick up your phone when it rings. Can I tell you a funny anecdote? I know Scott is going to ask me the question and I'm ready now. So you look up and my friend and I were driving in a car and he was studying the art of cold reading.

46:37And this is what literally people in the carnival do when they guess your weight and all that stuff. And it's called a PT Bartim. And basically, a lot of times when they're guessing, they're just using statistical odds. Like if you're unhappy with your realtor, the number one reason people fire their realtors is poor communication, Mindy. And so it is funny, I heard Ben pick up the phone. He's talking to someone and it was their listing hadn't sold. This is back during the Great Recession. And he goes, let me guess, the realtor you were working with didn't communicate very effectively and they weren't very good at marketing your home.

47:12Top two complaints for home sellers right there. You just assumed them and then, oh, my gosh, how did you know? So the marketing part is not as reflective of the first time home buyer journey. but the communication always is when you're working with a key fiduciary, they're there to represent you. They can't represent you if they aren't communicating with you. Well, Jay, you have in your first home, you list a couple of great questions to ask an agent in these interviews. What do you think are a couple of the key things that you would key in on in an interview or coach someone to key in on? And what's an example of a great answer from one of those agents?

47:50So the two questions that jumped out at me that we haven't already kind of hit, anecdotally. One is, tell me about the kinds of things that go wrong and how you would handle them. And the reason I ask that is, one, you're going to get some sense of how many first-time homebuyers they've worked with. Are there answers appropriate to you and your journey? And I know this in hiring, that's the kind of question I ask, I want to see how they think. Right? You know, it's like, are they describing how when something went wrong, the first thing they did was call you to let you know, right? Like I'm going to find out a lot by them describing their history.

48:26And then sometimes people will tell you things and they're, they're in their mind, they're the hero of the story, but you know, that will work for you. So to me in general, it's like, you can ask that three times. What's something else that often goes wrong for first time homebuyers? And they're going to tell you and how do you handle that? And now you're getting a sense for how they work, how they communicate, and how they problem solve. The other big one is the last one, and it's asking for testimonials and referrals. If they can't tell you other people they serve that are like you, that would be a little bit of a problem for me.

49:02A great salesperson can make it sound like they're perfect for me, but I'd love to hear it from one of my peers. Today, I mean, I could go on Zillow and Google. There are lots of places that I think are they're not sending the customers they didn't serve well to those sites to give reviews. You're only seeing the upside. But if you actually talk to someone who's worked with them, they'll often tell you kind of warts and all and why they would use them again. Like things go wrong in real estate transactions. Let's just get that right. It's how they respond to things going wrong. Agents made mistakes.

49:34They all do. But how they respond to those mistakes is ultimately what matters. What are some of the craziest horror stories or funny things or things that have gone awry to blow up deals that maybe have made their way through the lexicon of Keller Williams and the 180 ,000 agents with millions and millions of transactions, tens of millions of transactions. What are some of the ones that have stood out over the years as making headlines? I mean, there's lots of people walking in on dead bodies and affairs. like i mean even on her own team literally have had those things happen um lots of dog stories that were not listed in the listing remarks um it's one of the reasons you like experienced realtor would crack open the door and yell realtor just to make sure that a doberman doesn't come crashing through um or they might catch someone who didn't know the house was going to be sold right so those are the majority of them and a lot of times you just hear um great stories about how things went wrong and how people salvage the deal.

50:40Those are my favorite. Like I was just chatting with my sister who's a realtor in Memphis and it's really hard, but a certain age of home, I want to say if it's pre-1970, you could have cast iron pipes and like just learning, like I've learned the hard way myself. Those cast iron pipes, tree roots can get them and they can collapse over time and if you have a pure and beam it's not that big of a deal if you've got a slab um i've literally seen people jackhammering through a slab that i had recently purchased oh yeah that that look up of being sick mindy yeah it was like a it was at least forty thousand dollars hit um for us because they had the jackhammer through the slab in five different places and so you just learn the hard lessons like i like those stories because i would rather learn from someone else's mistake.

51:33Now I'm like, if you don't know what a hydrostatic test is, you need to know. Like for just, you know, 50 bucks, you can ask the plumber during the inspection if it's an older home, say, would you please run a hydrostatic test? And that way you'll know if there's a leak somewhere versus finding out 10 months later and getting a bill. Hopefully not. It might have been after you just refinished those hardwood floors too, which would be horrible. A year ago, this didn't matter because you're paying for it anyways. Nowadays, you can put it on the seller. So all the more important to do exactly what you just said here.

52:06So Jay, question about some of those examples, right? And let's go with dead body, for example. How does this impact the closing process? You're a buyer, right? Do you walk away? What do you do in that particular example? I used to know the technical thing here. I know the answer to this one because I used to live by Harold and I didn't live by Harold very long before he died in his bathtub in the home in August and went undiscovered for 12 days. And then everybody – I sound like such a horrible person on this whole show, but everybody started calling it. It was dead Harold's house. And I looked up when it finally sold, it was a year and a month later.

52:57And I'm like, that's got to be some sort of timing. And it turns out that it's definitely state by state. It depends on the nature of the death. I think the only thing that carries through all 50 states is an HIV-related death is not required to be disclosed. If it is a sensational death, in some states they require that, in some states they don't. California requires a sensational death to be disclosed within three years. And afterwards, it doesn't have to be. Colorado has no such disclosure requirements because it unfairly stigmatizes the property, which I think is really awful. If you're selling a home where somebody died in the home, disclose.

53:36Because then the seller or the buyer can't come back later and say, you didn't tell me. That's my advice to everybody. Disclose everything. because, Jay, if I tell you something in writing, disclose in writing, because then you can't come back and sue me, well, you can try. But the judge is going to throw it out and say, they told you. Well, I didn't read that. That's on you. That's not on me. I shared it. You didn't read it. You signed that you read it. I'm clear. If I'm selling Harold's house, I'm going to disclose it. And I'm going to say, and we redid the bathroom. Yes, sunshine cleaners came.

54:10Now, also, while we're on the diatribe here about the state laws concerning these things. If you are in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Minnesota, you must also disclose if your house is haunted or not, or if there's a haunting. So that's something to remember. If you've seen a ghost, you must put that in the listing. I think I was asked this by David Green when we were at BPCon, and they said, as an investor, would you buy a haunted house? And I'm all over that. I would Airbnb the crap out of a haunted house. I think that's great. And if, you know, I'm sorry, dead Harold's house, like that to me as an investor, now when I'm thinking buy it to rent it, I think maybe if it's going to sit on the market longer than normal because of the stigma, that's an opportunity for me to get a better buy.

54:59One of the investors I interviewed back in 2004, I remember him saying, cat pee smells like money to me. Because you walk into a house that had a bunch of cats, most people just run the other direction. He's like, I know exactly the aisle in Home Depot that I buy the product that gets rid of the smell. Worst case, I have to cut a couple of inches off of the drywall, but I know exactly how much it costs to remediate, and I'm going to save 10 times back. So sometimes the stigma of houses for like, I'm a first-time homebuyer. you should be thinking bargain, not dream home. But to maximize this opportunity, the bargains are also the ones that are most likely to be rentable in the future.

55:37And I would love it if more people bought it to rent it in the future instead of selling their house to buy it. Just leave a trail of income behind you, income properties. Like if I could go back and buy a duplex, I would. Right? Just live in half of it, doll it up, and either have two streams of income when I buy my next house, or if I had to flip it, you can retail a duplex, right? You've got sell it to another first-time home buyer and get a little premium versus just the investment price. So anyway, there's lots of woulda, coulda, shouldas if I could go back in time. I just didn't get my, I got my education late in life.

56:12I think you're an example of success that lots of people would love to emulate and learn from. So don't beat yourself up too bad here. We've done okay. Being in Austin certainly helped. We own a bunch of Austin property. Oh, well, then you're doing okay. Yeah, yeah. We're doing okay. Austin's not a bad place to be. All right, Jay, where can people find out more about you? I would direct them to, right now, the most current website for us is theonething.com. I've got my best bio there. I also do a weekly newsletter called The 20 Percenter. So every week I'm writing about, like I did a whole thing on renting and owning and mortgage buy-downs.

56:49That's where a lot of this stuff is piling up in my head as my weekly deadline around the writing about real estate. So those are the two best places to find me. Awesome. Jay also appeared on the BiggerPockets podcast, episode 113, and BiggerPockets Business, which is still available. I believe that was episode number six. So both of those are fantastic to go check out, Jay. Jay, have we had you on additional episodes as well? I believe you had me and my wife on an episode talking about the goal-setting retreat. That's right. Yes. And I want to say it's like 164 or something like that. I used to have it memorized.

57:22There's another one. So lots of Jay. Jay, thank you for all you've done for BiggerPockets. Those have all been great ones. I remember that particular episode. I just didn't write it down there. Well, awesome. And I do want to also plug, we have a partnership with Jay and Gary Keller and Keller Williams' team here with their book, Your First Home, that Jay and Gary authored, and First Time Home Buyer, authored by myself. And I can't remember who the co-author of that one is. Um, those two books together are going to be$22, uh, with, with a discount code that you can, um, you can use it's BP Keller, and you can find that deal at Keller ink.com that's Keller I N K.com.

58:05And, uh, go check, go check that out. Uh, both, uh, are fantastic. Um, I think, uh, and, and, and we're really excited to offer them together. I think it's the ultimate way to prepare yourself for making that first home purchase. And again, that discount code is BP Keller. That'll last until July 1st of this year. So get it before it expires. Lovely. Happy home hunting, y 'all. And thank y 'all for writing a great book. I really enjoyed reading your book. Jay, thank you for your time today. This was so much fun. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jay. We appreciate it. We admire all the success that you've had and all of the incredible business that you have helped build over at Keller Williams.

58:43What a fantastic operation there. Really appreciate it and have a wonderful rest of your week. Okay, Scott, that was Jay Papazan. I had such a good time talking to him. I learned a lot. He is such a delight. Yeah. Jay is one of those outstanding individuals you meet that he just is genuinely interested in helping other people. He's a polished executive, a seasoned real estate investor, early entrant at Keller Williams Corporate, and has just built a phenomenal business life empire and done it in a very genuine, positive, and enthusiastic way. I learned something every time I talked to Jay, and what a privilege to have him on the show today.

59:31And what an honor to be partnering with him and associated with him and Gary in the context of providing books for first-time homebuyers. Yes. And let's give that a link again. It's kellerink.com, kellerink.com. And both of these books are fantastic. They're$19 each, but with the BP Keller discount code, you can get the bundle for$22 total. That's The First Time Homebuyer Book by Mindy Jensen, who is me, and some bum named Scott. Just kidding. And Scott Trench, who also contributed quite a bit to the book, and Your First Home by Gary Keller and Jay Papazan. And they together, these two books, give readers an edge in a competitive market.

1:00:23So again, that's kellerink.com, Keller I-N-K, and the discount code is BP Keller. If you are buying a first home, if you know somebody who's getting ready to buy a home, you will benefit greatly. They will benefit greatly by reading these books. Absolutely. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. If you like this, we would love to get a review or feedback. You can email Mindy at biggerpockets.com with any negative feedback and Scott at biggerpockets.com with any positive feedback or leave us a rating review on any of your favorite places where you listen to podcasts. Should we get out of here, Mindy?

1:01:00Scott gave the wrong email address. It's Mindy at I'm not listening to you. No, I love constructive feedback. And yes, I would like to say thank you to Ethan Peani-Homan who sent today's goodbye. He actually sent me a great big long list. Thank you, Ethan. That does wrap up this episode of the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast. He is Scott Trench and I am Mindy Jensen saying farewell, turtle shell. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple. And if you're looking for even more money content, feel free to visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash BiggerPocketsMoney.

1:01:42BiggerPocketsMoney was created by Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench. Produced by Kaylin Bennett. Editing by Exodus Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. Lastly, a big thank you to the BiggerPockets team for making this show possible.