Does Money Buy Happiness? What the FIRE Community Gets Wrong

22:21I also know a lot of people, I know a few billionaires and I really, I don't struggle, but I'm very conscious about not comparing my life to theirs because I didn't do the things that they did to earn that money. And they've made significant sacrifices to get where they got. And I wasn't willing to make those sacrifices. And even if I had, I probably couldn't have gotten there. Bringing this back to our friendly back and forth about fire and whether there's a health component to that or not. It's not fair to compare your happiness or state of wellbeing at one point in your life to another point.

22:53I think you have to compare it to your counterfactual. If I'm in the same position at 35 with this situation, am I happier being financially independent or not? And I think that that answer is a clear, yeah, you're probably going to be happier financially independent to some degree over that counterfactual case. And I think that one thing that still bugs me is I believe that I really believe in what we do here at Bigger Pockets Money. I believe in pushing people to make the sacrifices and earn that extra income and go all out and keep those expenses low and keep that spread very large so that your independence, the runway you have from a financial net worth perspective and liquid net worth perspective, the cash flow that that produces can actually give you optionality early in life.

23:38And I believe that that approach requires a pretty deep sacrifice for four or five years, doing things you don't want to do necessarily in order to get that compounding journey going over. And then there's extreme unhealthiness taking it way too far for way too long after that. And there's kind of almost irresponsible or not quite mathematically sound approach of pulling the trigger too early in other cases. But many of the people in the fire community, I think, get that balance generally right. And then they struggle with this problem of what do I want to be when I grow up once I actually hit financial independence?

24:07And that's a years long journey as they approach it and exceed it. Even if you work a traditional, not that these exist like they did, you know, 25 years ago, but even if you work a traditional corporate job, come out of college, maybe you get a graduate degree and you go into the working world and you work for 35 years and then you retire. Everybody's going to have this inflection point at some point where you have to decide, well, what are you besides your job? Like, what do you stand for? What do you care about? How do you want to spend your time? And it's still going to be an identity crisis of sorts where you have to say, who do I stand for?

24:37What am I? You have this when your kids leave home, when you become empty nesters. A lot of my friends are going through that right now. My kids are a little younger. They're still in high school. But like you have to say, well, who am I besides being a parent on a day-to-day basis? How do I relate to my spouse? Are we still like go pathetic without the kids as a bonding agent? And how are we going to spend our time together? And you have to be on the same page. And that's a question that comes back to values, part of which are financial values.

25:01Paul Ollinger:I really like that. I think a lot of people don't think about that. And when you said the RE part is not what you like about FIRE, I have said that multiple times too. So many people are focused on the RE. They're not thinking about the FI. They're not thinking about what they're going to do once they leave. I know lots of people in the FIRE community who have left and then found some other way to either generate a small amount of income or produce something that they are doing that makes them happy that isn't producing a ton of income because they don't need it anymore. They already got money out of the way.

25:34Paul Ollinger:I love that you're saying this too. I'm happy to share my point of view for whatever it's worth. And everybody's got their own journey to go on and they've got to do what's right for them. My problem with retire early is I see a lot of 28, 32 year old guys that have been doing standup comedy for 10 years. They've been baristas, if that, you know, in their career so far. And I'm like, dude, you are going to be screwed when you're 45 years old, unless you make it in comedy. And the chances of you making it in comedy are extremely low. I had a career counselor in business school, Steve Lebrano, who was amazing.

26:07And my first year coming back to my school after graduating, I was saying, I want to go do standup comedy. He was like, make your money first, make your money first. Don't just bail and chase your dream because your value in the marketplace price diminishes rapidly once you drive it off the lot. Isn't this fire? Like what I think of fire, and I think some people, like it means some different, different people, but I think you just described exactly what we are trying to do here to a T. Like there are so many people out there who are a director of marketing or an FP &A, you know, financial planning and analysis at their company.

26:43And that's not their passion, but it pays the bills and they're on the fire journey and they're going to be there in five, seven, eight years. if the market cooperates anything close to historical averages and they do all the right plays. And then they can go and start their comedy podcast. Oh, don't start a comedy podcast. That's what I'm telling you. Don't do it. That's the point is they're financially independent so they can do exactly what they want. And that's their passion, their joy. They don't care if it makes money. That's retirement, right? Retirement is not doing nothing and playing video games all day.

27:15It's doing what Paul does. It's making this content that somebody enjoys, even if it doesn't make money because your portfolio enables you to do that. Just be really diligent about your math and as diligent as you can be about your future psychology without being able to do any calculation. Let me tell you this. Sorry, that sounded didactic or pedantic. One of those things. I don't know what it is. Here's my, here's been my experience. You quit with an amount of money that sounds and feels like a lot and it still is a lot. And I'm super grateful, but guess what? The clock doesn't stop ticking.

27:46Your peers keep working and moving on. And your peer that was a vice president becomes the CEO. And the people you start hanging out with, the bar keeps moving. And yes, we can practice meditation and awareness and mindfulness to be grateful for what we have and to not let the moving goalposts affect us too much. But you notice. And so unless you can keep really earning and keep moving that thing forward, it doesn't feel like a victory every day. How do you feel about it? Right. Like, is this, did I not describe your situation to some degree? You made a boatload of money. Yeah, I did. And, and I, and I'm still wildly fortunate and I, I still watch the markets and I'm still trying to be prudent, but, you know, generate as much cash as I can safely.

28:32I'm just saying that these things we talk about, like just retire and you'll have enough. The question is to what is enough changes all the time. And because our life circumstances keep changing. Maybe you have a third child that you weren't planning on having. Maybe that child has some sort of disability. That means you need an extra 20 % of net worth to cover that child's medical expenses. You know, maybe you get divorced. Well, that wasn't on the menu. Like, I'm just saying life happens, circumstances change, which makes your previous math not as accurate as it once was. like for if I needed a job, if the market tanks by 75%, I'm not in a good place anymore.

29:11I'm still fine. I'm just not in a great place. And if I were to try to go back and get another job, it's not Paul Ollinger, vice president of sales at Facebook. It's Paul Ollinger. What do you got? How can I create value? Like who will take me after being a standup comedian for 10 years? I could find something. I could find some things that are pretty good actually, but it's not like you're not going to go back making a million bucks a year after you've been out of the workforce for 15 years. That's all I'm saying. That's the sort of, you don't know what's coming down the road. And so Scott, to your point about like, yes, as long as you've created those cash generating tools in your life, they just have to be robust.

29:47I mean, really robust and probably more robust than you think they need to be. Because life between 40 and 56, life changes a lot more than you think it will. One thing I will call out is that a huge percentage of the fire community has all of their wealth, effectively all of their liquid wealth in S &P 500 index fund portfolios. And that is not a good place to have all of your wealth if you are declaring a state of financial independence, because the market can and will be volatile to that point. It will display a 50 % drawdown at various points in your life. And that, I don't know, 75%, maybe that's even possible, stocks at all time high sales to price ratios.

30:26So I think you're completely right. And I think that's the rub here is that if you're going to declare that and really go on this different tangent, you got to be pretty sure. I do think the paradox of it is that the withdrawal rules, because that fear is so acute in the FIRE community. I mean, how many times, Mindy, have we discussed the 4 % rule? We've had endless, endless debates about 60-40 stock bond portfolio, risk parity, golden ratio portfolio. Here's all the different uncorrelated assets. Here's all the historical cases. And we'll be a little bit more conservative on top of those anyways, and build a big cash buffer and all that kind of stuff.

30:57So I think people do respect that message that you're giving us right now to a very healthy degree, perhaps even to an unhealthy degree, by going so far and away over the numbers that are supported by historical research that there's no historical context where they could possibly get disrupted. I would argue that most people in the fire community actually, who actually do pull the trigger, are likely in that extreme tail end. if they plan to truly earn no money afterwards. But I also call out that a third of BiggerPockets money listeners specifically intend to and plan to start a business after they achieve financial independence.

31:36And another third say, perhaps I might in there. So that's probably half the community that will pursue some form of business endeavor after financial independence. And who's to say that a self-made multimillionaire early in life is not likely to succeed in business to some degree, after early retirement. 100%. And that's not necessarily a resume killer, right? Like you're a director, you know, a VP at a company. Then you go and start a business in your early retirement and then you want to go back in the workforce. I don't know if that's a resume killer. I don't think it is. And you'll develop new capabilities and knowledge that will make you more valuable in the marketplace.

32:12If you go and start a podcast and do it for 10 years and it doesn't work out and Spotify or Megaphone doesn't want to hire you, you haven't built your industry knowledge or status to, It hasn't kept pace with, you know, the marketplace. Mindy, let's hope it works out.

32:26Paul Ollinger:I hope it works out. But also, I would not - I need you guys to help me make it work out. Go listen to Paul Olinger's podcast called Reasonably Happy. It used to be called Crazy Money. There is a financial component in there. So go listen to his show after you listen to all of ours, of course. I want to ask you something here, Paul. We have talked to a lot of people who have made it into the top 1 % in wealth on this podcast, and many of them. In fact, I would say the great majority of these top one percenters have some kind of outlier investment that propels, you know, income or investment that propels them into this position, right?

33:00For Mindy, it's – in Carl, it was these technology stocks that they picked that really zoomed up over time. For you, it's obviously going to be meta and the stock that you got as an employee that ballooned. When we find people with those positions, there's a one great situation because we're rich now and two a problem because we're highly concentrated in one highly volatile asset that we're not quite sure how comfortable we feel about as comprising that much of our net worth. And it's hard to get out of that position because there's a tax consequence to realizing gains in many of those situations.

33:32At the highest level, can you talk about what that looked like for you and how you thought about bridging from what is or was a highly concentrated position in Metastock than Facebook to a more diversified portfolio that makes you feel better about your position today? Yeah, there was a point at which a few many years ago, my financial advisors asked me what my goal was. And I said it was to sleep at night. And so we started a method, a methodical drawdown of Facebook as a percentage of my overall net worth and sold off, you know, around regular on regular basis. And we sold some of it pathetically early, you know, painfully, painfully early for a stock that's at whatever 600 bucks a share.

34:15now. I mean, 10 % of that or way less, but you can't worry about that, you know? And I was fortunate to have the right skills at the right time and the right relationships to get a job at Facebook. I've been lucky to hold onto a stock that has had so much upside. That's what we've lived on. The appreciation of that stock is what we've lived on for the last 14 years. And that's certainly not something that, you know, you can bet on. So we have less than we'd have if we had held on for a long, long time, but I've slept better at night and I haven't had to worry about missing any rent payments or missing any meals along the way.

34:47What did you reallocate to? Did you just harvest it and spend it? Or did you reallocate portions of those sales to like an S &P 500 index fund or other portfolio assets? We reallocated into a portfolio that has lots of stocks and bonds, some real estate, things like that. And we always do it with an eye on taxes and understanding where we are in the year versus what we might need to live on the next 12 months. Always have plenty of cash in the bank so that we don't have to sell. If the market takes a big dip, when COVID happened, we weren't in a position where I had to sell tons and tons of stock to meet our expenses on a month-to-month basis because we'd already done it.

35:30And so we rode the dip out, sold nothing, and everything came back. And so that's a fortunate position to be in.

35:36Paul Ollinger:What does tons of cash mean in terms of monthly or annual spending? Not as much as you think. And when I say cash, I mean cash equivalents also not just sitting, you know, under the bed or in the safe, right? What's the percentage of it? I don't know. I mean, we've got probably nine to 15 months worth of cash or cash equivalents, you know, in our portfolio. Does your spouse work? She has her own small fashion accessory brand called Sidecar. And it's a very cool thing that also does not make a lot of money. So we're both independent creatives doing our thing. And so we manage for that as well. This is our final ad break.

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38:01thanks for sticking with us let's keep chatting with paul in terms of like annual or monthly

38:06Paul Ollinger:spending what sort of income are you generating from your stand-up job and your spouse's job versus what you're pulling out of retirements well it's not really retirement i mean you know It's a living, breathing portfolio that will – retirement is a weird word. He doesn't like the word retirement, but he has a very suspiciously retirement, early retirement lifestyle. You guys make it sound like I don't have a fire voodoo doll. I don't know. I think we came at this the wrong way. No, I think you're making really great points. I think people have this idea that once I get financially independent, my whole life is going to change and everything's going to be great.

38:48Paul Ollinger:And that's not true. You don't change automatically just because you no longer have to have a job. You're the same person you were before. If you were a jerk before, guess what? You're still a jerk now. If you were super awesome before, you're super awesome now. If you had a terrible relationship with your partner, that's not going to magically change. In fact, it'll just get worse because you're spending more time with them. Money amplifies who you are. It doesn't change you so much, I think. Good and bad. So the question was how much, I mean, you know, look, we're in a good year after you deduct things like podcast production, promotion, travel.

39:24If I'm clearing on my comedy and professional speaking of which I do a decent amount and which actually pays quite well, you know, if I clear a hundred grand on that, then I'm excited. And it's because, you know, being a creative independent is very expensive. and, you know, travel, if you want to travel halfway decently is, you know, it's also expensive and getting more expensive all the time. So yeah. So if I'm, if I'm clearing a hundred grand on that, I'm pretty excited.

39:49Paul Ollinger:And living in New York City. And everything else is, and everything else. Yeah. That doesn't even cover one kid's private school tuition after taxes. New York City is absurdly expensive. It's, I mean, private school is$70 ,000 per child. And so if you're in the fire movement, you probably don't want to live in New York City. You certainly don't want to send your kid to private school. I think that's a big thing though. Like there's the, I don't really know a lot of people in the fire community that are in New York city. I just, I don't think it's a thing. I don't think it's like the desire of people in New York city to retire early.

40:18I think that it's just so hustling and bustling and there's so much to spend money on and there's so much to do and see that it's, it's different. Like, like here in the burbs of Southern Denver, like there's the fire is really appealing relative to Manhattan because the things I want to do with my day on a Tuesday are like, oh, I can go to the mountain and ski where there's no lift lines or whatever. And that's a really big difference in mindset. And I think it's very popular out here in Colorado. This is not an uncommon thing. I'll meet random people and it'll come up and that'll be like, yes, that's what I want.

40:49But you don't really hear that from Manhattan. Yeah, the things you want to do in Manhattan cost a lot of money. You know, my wife and my anniversary was yesterday. We went to a very expensive restaurant and it was lovely and it was romantic and it was nice, but it was expensive. We're going to go see Stevie Nicks tomorrow night in Brooklyn at whatever the arena is there. You know, it's a thousand bucks for the tickets. I mean, like it's absurdly expensive to live here and do the kind of things that people want to do when they live here. I'm sure there's people in the fire movement here and I'm sure they've got all the kinds of cool New York hacks and all that, but it's an insanely expensive place to live.

41:22Paul Ollinger:I would like to invite all of our New York City members, listeners to email scott at biggerpocketsmoney.com and let him know that you are there and thriving in New York City. Yeah. I'm not saying it's not thriving. I'm just saying I think that the folks who have the hardest time grasping fire tend to be relatively high-income earners in New York City. Like, I'll call out Ramit Sethi, who posts a fire-bashing Twitter post, X post, once a week, it seems like, on there. And I get it. I get it. You live in Manhattan. You have another house in LA. There's so many five-star restaurants to spend money on.

41:58Like, it's incomprehensible in there. But if you lived at like here where I live, the public school is a 9 out of 10 and the private school is a 9.2 out of 10. There's no advantage to spending 40, 50 grand a year on private school tuition where I live in a relative context. It matters much more greatly how much what I do as a parent than that marginal spread. In New York City, it's probably a big difference. The public school is probably very different than the$70 ,000 private school you're doing there. And it's so much greater that there's a real desire and need to a certain extent to have that income difference if you want to provide that extra level of advantage and you have the capability to do so.

42:33I think that that's the rub. And maybe that's where this gets mixed up a little bit is that it's very hard in L.A., New York City, San Francisco, maybe a couple other places to really comprehend this concept at all. And it's much easier if you live out many other places. Well, these are choices, right? And if your goal is to live a life of happiness is a word with a lot of definitions, but if you're looking to live a life of contentment and satisfaction and fulfillment, that you can do that in places that cost a lot less. And you can invest your money in the things that you really care about, like sweet trail bike, as opposed to crazy private school tuition that is 0.1 % better than the public option.

43:14In New York, there is that huge difference. There are outstanding magnet public schools in New York City, but you have to test into them. And so not everybody gets a chance to avail themselves of those schools. And they're highly, highly competitive and maybe not a great place for your kids. So I'm a big believer in what you say. Spend your money in ways that are going to maximize your satisfaction and on the things that really matter and not on stuff. You don't care. But like, so last night, for example, we went to this incredible French restaurant and I was talking to my friend about it, who's a big time hedge fund guy.

43:42And he was saying he wanted to try it. And I texted him this morning. I was like, dude, it was great. It was elegant. It was lovely. The food was magical. The experience was cool. And if I had to choose where to go to dinner tonight, I'd go where we had fried chicken last week because I just thought it was a better restaurant experience. And it wasn't cheap because it's New York City, but it was a lot cheaper than last night was. Yeah, I would say the fine dining options here in Highlands Ranch, Colorado are limited. Happy hour begins at eight at the local brewery. So it's a little different vibe out here.

44:11Well, you know, there's something out there for everybody.

44:14Paul Ollinger:There is. So Paul, open invitation to come visit us whenever. The next time you are in Denver, I want to come see your show. It was so nice to see you in Denver. So I want to give a shout out to David, who I met through the Choose Fi Denver local groups or at a Camp Fi. I can't remember. I've seen him a ton of times. He posted, hey, does anybody want to go to Paul Olinger's show in Denver? My husband and I went. You were hilarious. I stopped. You stood outside the door and you were shaking hands with everybody. and I asked if I could have you on my show. And you're like, oh, sure. And then I had taken a picture of you and sent it to Joe Salci.

44:50Paul Ollinger:Hi, I'm like, this dude looks just like you. And he said, oh, I know, Paul. He's been on my show. I'm like, could you introduce me to him, please? Joe has stayed in my house in Atlanta. I mean, we're pals. He came through on his book tour and we hung out. He was in my basement on his book tour too. I didn't keep him in the basement, Mindy. I put him in the guest room. Well, you're better than me. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you meant you tied him up in the cellar. Nevermind. He's used to the basement. That's where he records in his mom's basement. That's true. That is true. I forgot. That's a very good point.

45:19Paul Ollinger:He likes the basement. He likes a dank, dark area. It's not that dank. Okay. So Paul Ollinger, thank you so much for your time today. I had a lovely time chatting with you. Please tell our listeners where they can find you. Best place to follow me is on my sub stack. It's words.paulllinger.com. Paul Ollinger is P-A-U-L-O-L-L-I-N-G-E-R. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you for coming in and providing such a thoughtful challenge to the concept on fire. I think we are trying to communicate very similar things. And we the language that we choose in there is really important. And I think I think it means very different things to the word financial independence retire early has a different register, like it registers differently in my brain than it does in yours.

46:02And that's that's OK. It makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like you've been very successful and have a thriving career and are doing wonderfully. And I look forward to seeing you next time you're here in Denver. And Scott, thanks for having me.

46:12Paul Ollinger:All right, Scott, that was Paul Ollinger. And that was a really fun conversation we just had. What did you think of Paul? I thought Paul is like a classic example of fire, right? Like he's using different terminology. He rejects the term, but like, this is a guy who built a huge net worth early in life through, you know, Facebook and then, you know, now Meta stock that appreciated. And now he gets to, you know, do whatever he wants. And he's chosen to pursue this comedy career that blends comedy and a little bit. He's an expert on happiness and the science behind it and has really studied that and spoken on those topics as well.

46:49And that's a good career. It's actually a quite good career. We talked about making almost$100 ,000 in some years with that career. But his framework of other folks that have made a buku dollars from Meta and that live in New York City and send their kids to private school doesn't seem like that much income. So he has to rely on his portfolio. To me, that's a FIRE outcome. That's the outcome that we are trying to enable in mass for the people who listen to Bigger Pockets Money. It's just that he rejected the terminology. What did you think?

47:19Paul Ollinger:He is FI, but he wasn't pursuing FI. He's like FI by accident, not on purpose. So I can see why he doesn't identify with the community as much as somebody who was actually doing it on purpose would identify with. And also, he's really anti-retire early. Even though he did leave his job, he doesn't consider himself retired. And I think that, like you said, Scott, it's all semantics. We're talking about the same thing. But it is your mindset. And his mindset is not one of someone who is in the fire community. I wonder if it's a little bit because of the frugality aspect, too, and that he's not frugal.

48:01I really want to explore that concept of Manhattan specifically. Let's focus on Manhattan and not broader New York City because we have plenty of folks who follow the podcast from New York City. But I would be surprised if we have a large contingent of Manhattan-based listeners to this podcast and that are pursuing FIRE in general. I'm sure they're out there, but please email me if you are in Manhattan, scott at biggerpocketsmoney.com, and tell me about this. But I think that as a young person, I would have had a lot of trouble with the fire community if I was living in Manhattan. I've been there a few times, and it is not really conducive to that mindset.

48:39It's very difficult to justify, I think, the concept of early retirement when there's so much to see, spend, and do. The world's best of everything is right there at your fingertips. And I think it's a little harder to comprehend when you don't look out your window and see the mountains right there, which are free and fun and wonderful. That's a very different draw that comes to your mind every day, living in Denver and looking at those things than there is going out your door and knowing that the best food, entertainment, and fun in the world is right there as long as you can spend money. And so I wonder if that's a dynamic that we're seeing.

49:13Paul Ollinger:Okay. I asked everybody in Manhattan to email scott at biggerpocketsmoney.com. Please CC me, Mindy at biggerpocketsmoney.com, because I want to see how many people are there. I know several people that live in Manhattan. Paula Pant lives in New York City and Broke Millennial lives in New York City, or at least she did. I actually haven't talked to her in a while. I need to send a note to Erin. But I know multiple people who live in New York City and are pursuing FIRE. I think you can pursue financial independence in any city and you spend the money that you choose to spend. And if you decide not to do all of these expensive things, then you decide not to.

49:52Paul Ollinger:Or maybe you make friends with the stage manager and you can get in for free or you can get in, you know, on discount day or whatever. There's lots of ways to enjoy your life without spending full price. I completely agree. And I'm not saying there's not that out there. And I know all those folks. I just think it's a little harder. I think it's even harder relative to a place like Los Angeles or these expensive places in California because there's a lot of free and wonderful activities you can do there as well out there. Not as much, I feel like, that you can do that's free and wonderful in New York City.

50:20Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe someone will tell me about that and educate me on this. Central Park? Central Park is great. So yeah, these are the things that I don't know about New York City. And I just wonder if it seems like a lot of the people who are most anti-fire seem to concentrate in Manhattan or the New York City area.

50:38Paul Ollinger:Remember, this is Scott saying this, not Mindy. All right, Scott, should we get out of here? Let's do it. That wraps up this fantastic episode of the BiggerPocketsMoney podcast. He is Scott Trench. I am Mindy Jensen saying cheers, dears.

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