In short
BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast
Episode Summary
Single-Family vs. Multifamily Rentals: Which Is the Best First Rental?
Podcast Overview The BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast, hosted by Dave Meyer, aims to help listeners achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. The show features discussions on strategies, market insights, and personal experiences of successful real estate investors.
Episode Description In this episode, the discussion revolves around the central question of whether to pursue single-family or multifamily rental properties as a first investment. The hosts, Dave and Henry, explore the advantages and disadvantages of each option, providing insights that cater to rookie investors looking to make informed decisions.
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Key Takeaways
- Single-Family vs. Multifamily Rentals
- Single-Family Rentals:
- Easier to manage with fewer tenants.
- Less intimidating for new investors.
- Potential for lower cash flow compared to multifamily options.
- Multifamily Rentals:
- Offer greater cash flow and economies of scale.
- More efficient management as they typically share a roof and tax bill.
- Risk is mitigated as vacancies in one unit do not fully compromise the entire rental income.
- Expert Opinion:
- Dave favors small multifamily properties for greater cash flow and financial benefits over time. He emphasizes that once tenants are in place, management becomes less cumbersome.
- Raising Rents on Inherited Tenants
- A scenario was presented where a new landlord inherited a tenant paying significantly below market rent.
- Advice Given:
- Use a "stair-step" strategy to gradually increase rent.
- Ensure open communication and involve the tenant in discussions about rent adjustments.
- Maintain a balance between being a responsible business owner and a compassionate individual.
- BRRRR vs. House Flipping
- BRRRR Strategy (Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat):
- Generally considered lower risk.
- Long-term benefits through rental income and property appreciation.
- House Flipping:
- Potential for quick returns but comes with higher risks and pressures.
- Requires a solid understanding of market conditions and the ability to execute renovations effectively.
- Advice for New Investors
- New investors are encouraged to consider their risk tolerance and investment goals before jumping into real estate.
- The hosts suggest that many first-time investors should focus on building a solid financial foundation, choosing properties that mitigate risk while providing reasonable returns.
- Caution: It’s essential to avoid investments that do not meet financial objectives, particularly in expensive housing markets.
- House Hacking Concerns
- The hosts discuss the challenges of house hacking in high-cost markets like Seattle.
- They advise against pursuing house hacks if the cash flow calculations indicate significant monthly losses compared to renting a place outright.
Conclusion In this episode, the hosts tackle critical questions regarding investment strategies, emphasizing the importance of informed decision-making in real estate. They encourage aspiring investors to weigh their options carefully based on personal goals, market conditions, and financial implications.
For more insights and resources, listeners are encouraged to visit [BiggerPockets](https://www.biggerpockets.com).
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Additional Notes
- The episode encourages participation through the BiggerPockets forums, allowing listeners to ask questions and engage with the community.
- The hosts emphasize that real estate investing is a long-term venture that requires patience and strategic thinking.
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By summarizing key topics and discussions, this markdown file aims to provide a structured overview of the podcast episode, making the information easily accessible for readers looking to enhance their understanding of real estate investment strategies.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding the Investment Decision
0:45 to 2:14
A framework is discussed to help listeners choose between single-family and multifamily properties.
“I'm Henry Washington here, the co-host of the BiggerPockets podcast, and I am here along with Dave Meyer.”
Question from Christopher: Single-Family vs. Multifamily
2:14 to 3:22
A new investor poses a question about choosing between single-family and multifamily properties.
“And what do you think the best path is for someone investing out of state for the first time?”
Analysis of Multifamily Properties
3:22 to 5:03
The hosts discuss the advantages of small multifamily properties over single-family homes.
“I think they're very similar to finance.”
Advice for Out-of-State Investors
5:03 to 7:48
The hosts provide insights on buying properties out of state based on specific price ranges.
“When you were sitting there explaining why you liked multifamily as an answer to this question, I started thinking through like, what are my favorite properties?”
Question from Nick: Managing Inherited Tenants
10:00 to 12:18
A young investor asks about managing a long-term tenant and the ethics of raising rent.
“The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it.”
Effective Tenant Communication Strategies
14:04 to 16:53
Learn how to effectively communicate with tenants regarding rent adjustments.
“tried to approach these situations where I'm just open and honest with people.”
Understanding Rent Increases and Market Trends
16:53 to 18:39
Discover how to justify rent increases based on market trends and inflation.
“And so if you treat them like human beings, try to include them.”
The Importance of Conservative Underwriting
18:39 to 21:15
Understand the significance of conservative underwriting in real estate investments.
“Now, you don't have to maximize and squeeze every drop out of the tenant.”
Finding Mutual Benefits in Rental Relationships
21:15 to 21:32
Learn how to create mutually beneficial situations with tenants for better relationships.
“So to Nick, I think you know what to do.”
Choosing Between BRRRR and Fix-and-Flip Strategies
21:32 to 23:24
Explore the pros and cons of BRRRR versus fix-and-flip strategies for new investors.
“By the way, we ate at this great barbecue place, Pendleton's.”
Show all 13 chapters
Risk and Reward in Real Estate Investing
23:24 to 26:10
Understand the balance of risk and reward in real estate and how to approach your investments.
“The higher the risk you take, the bigger the potential reward.”
Navigating House Hacking in Expensive Markets
31:21 to 36:21
Explore insights on house hacking challenges in high-cost areas like Seattle.
“All right, we are back on the BiggerPockets podcast, answering your questions from the forums.”
Learning from Experts: Value Add Conference
36:21 to 36:55
Find out about an upcoming value add conference in Seattle for real estate investors.
“So if you want to learn more about house hacking, you can check out a couple of previous episodes that Dave and I did.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Should your next investment be a single-family home or a multifamily property? It's a critical question. You want to scale a portfolio and progress toward financial freedom as quickly as possible, but taking on the wrong type of property could leave you overwhelmed and slow down your progress in the long run. The good news? This choice does not need to leave you paralyzed. Today we're sharing a simple framework to help you pick the right type of property for you. The answer isn't the same for everyone, but by the end of this episode, you'll know how to think through big decisions of whether single family or multifamily is right for your experience level, financial situation, or investing strategy.
0:37Plus, we'll tackle how to balance getting your rents close to fair market value without forcing unnecessary tenant turnovers, whether new investors should take on burrs or flips, and so much more.
0:53What's up, friends? I'm Henry Washington here, the co-host of the BiggerPockets podcast, and I am here along with Dave Meyer. Dave, you're looking a little bundled. Are you wondering why I'm dressed like Macklemore right now? Is there something going on at the thrift shop we need to know about?
1:12Henry Washington:My heat went out two days ago over the weekend on Saturday morning. I woke up at my house, 40 degrees, and they actually just left my house and fixed the furnace, but it's still freezing in here. It's like literally 42 degrees. but the show's got to go on, man. So I'm just here dressed in full winter gear. Well, today we're giving people what they want. We're answering questions. You, the audience asked us on the BiggerPockets forums. So let's jump into it. The first question is from an investor named Christopher. And he said, I'm a new investor based in California, looking to start my portfolio out of state.
1:44My target is the$80 ,000 to$125 ,000 range in landlord-friendly markets with steady job growth. I'm most interested in burr and buy and hold rentals and I'm deciding between starting with a single family or a small multifamily. He goes on to say, here's where I'm stuck. Single family seems easier to manage, less intimidating, but the cashflow might be a little less. Whereas multifamilies could bring stronger cashflow and efficiencies of scale, but I've heard they can be tougher to finance and tenant issues could hit harder if I don't have a solid team yet. So which one should you start with? And what do you think the best path is for someone investing out of state for the first time?
2:21Henry Washington:All right, Christopher, good question. And I think a great approach. If you're based in California, super expensive, you want buy and hold or BRRRS, they're hard to find in California. So an out of state is a great option for you. I'm going to start with actually the second question, because basically what you said is, which is better, small multifamily or single family? All things being equal, I don't know how you feel about this, Henry, but I personally think small multifamily is just the best asset class. And I don't actually think it's really all that different from a management perspective.
2:54Henry Washington:Still got one roof, you got one tax bill, you do have multiple tenants. But I think what you'll learn, as almost every investor does over the course of their career, is it's really not that hard. Once you place tenants, it's just reacting and trying to do some repairs proactively. But I personally just think small multifamilies are better. I would challenge you, Christopher, on your question saying that you think that they're harder to finance small multifamilies and that tenant issues could hit harder. I think they're very similar to finance. Even if you are out of state, not owner occupying, you can get very similar types of loans for small multifamily.
3:31Henry Washington:Anything four units or fewer is considered a residential mortgage. And so you're still going to have pretty favorable financing. Some you can put five or 10 percent down. So you still have that option. And the thing that I would challenge about, yeah, if all of your tenants decide to up and leave at once, that will be an issue. Or if they all complain at once, that could be an issue. But I actually think that having a small multifamily mitigates risk because if you have a vacancy in one unit, it's not all of your income for that entire property. When you buy a single family home, if you can't find a tenant for two months, you're losing one-sixth of your entire revenue for the whole year.
4:10Henry Washington:Whereas if you have two months of vacancy in one of four units, maybe you're only losing 1.5 % of your revenue for the whole year. So I actually think it helps you mitigate risk, which I really like. that's just on principle. But I will say buying a multifamily for 80 to 125 is probably not realistic in a decent market. I think if you're looking for a place with job growth, you're going to be really hard pressed to find a duplex. I invest in the Midwest, you know, maybe in Detroit, you could probably find a duplex for that range. But if I were you with that price point, I actually would focus on buying the best asset I could and not on whether it's single family home or multifamily.
4:51Henry Washington:The advice I gave earlier was all things being equal. If you could afford both, I'd say small multifamily, but it sounds like you might want to focus on single family because you'll be able to get a high quality asset. That's not going to be a pain in your butt. Very well said. When you were sitting there explaining why you liked multifamily as an answer to this question, I started thinking through like, what are my favorite properties? And some of my favorite properties are single families. But when I ask the question differently and say, what are my most profitable and or wealth building properties, I get the most cash flow and I've built the most equity in my small multifamilies.
5:33And it's not even close. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think you're right. Small multifamily in terms of financial benefit, cash flow and wealth building seem to be the best asset. But my favorite properties are some of my single families. And that's the end one. Who cares about what your favorite is, right?
5:49Henry Washington:But why? Why are they your favorite then? Just because you're proud of what you did to them and the renovations? Proud of what I did to them. The locations that some of them are in, just prime locations, just excellent properties. You get the warm and fuzzies with the single families. You flip a house, it turns out great. A family moves in, they're happy with it. That's nice. That's a good experience. Multifamily, Well, you don't really get that as much. I agree with that. But I just think if you're trying to build that long-term portfolio, it's great. But I just think as a first-time investor, the name of the game is don't lose.
6:24Henry Washington:You don't need to win by a lot. You don't need to hit a home run. The game is to hit a single. And my fear is that if you take my original advice and say, oh, I'm going to buy a three-unit or four-unit at 125, there's going to be something wrong with that. Your tenants are going to be sitting there like me with their hat and jacket on because their heat doesn't work or their toilets don't work or something like that. This is what you get when you buy assets that are not up to their highest and best use. So I would make it easy on yourself as an out-of-state investor and buy something that's in good shape.
6:58Henry Washington:That would be my number one criteria. The caveat here is, Christopher, I would focus some of your time on learning more ways to finance deals. There are so many tools in the tool belt in terms of financing properties, small multifamilies. I think you can get a small multifamily financed pretty easily, no sweat. And given the concerns that you've outlined here, I would say my answer to you would be definitely focus on small multifamily if you're going to up that 80 to 125K range. But if not, then I think Dave is right. Buying a quality single family asset will save you so much headache over going and buying a trash multifamily.
7:36Henry Washington:Great question, Christopher. Thank you and good luck to you. We have a new question asking about inherited tenants from Nick in upstate New York. But before we answer that, we got to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Running your real estate business doesn't have to feel like juggling five different tools. With Resimply, you can pull motivated seller lists, skip trace them instantly for free, and reach out with calls or texts all from one streamlined platform. The real magic? AI agents that answer inbound calls, follow up with prospects, and even grade your conversations so you know where you stand.
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10:04Henry Washington:That's not the job. The job of a property manager is protecting and growing your operating income and earning your trust while they do it. And that comes down to three numbers, occupancy, delinquency, and net promoter score. If those numbers slip, your income slips and your trust slips too. And most PMs don't hold themselves to performance standards. They focus on activity, not outcomes. MIND is different. They obsess over the metrics that actually grow your cash flow. Go to mind.co slash show me to see how MIND performs and get a month of management for free. Because if you're going to hire a property manager, hire one that manages your investment like an investment.
10:47Henry Washington:Did you know your house gets bored when you leave? I can't actually prove that, but it probably misses out on the action, the footsteps, the late night fridge raids. Yeah, when you're gone, your place is basically on unpaid leave. It's sitting there in the dark thinking, I could be contributing right now. Your side room wants a side hustle. Even your Wi-Fi is like, we could be networking. You're on vacation, spending money like it's a sport, while your staircase at home is fully capable of sending your income upwards. Here's the twist. You can go on a trip and actually earn money. Airbnb makes that possible with the co-host network.
11:26Henry Washington:If you're away for a while or have a secondary property, you can hire a vetted local co-host with real hosting experience to handle it all. A co-host can handle guest communications. It can manage reservations and keep things running smoothly so you don't have to check your phone between beach days. That means less stress and more time enjoying your trip. You can relax knowing guests are taken care of and your place is in good hands. You travel, your house works, everyone wins. If you're ready to host but could use some help, find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host.
12:03Henry Washington:Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Henry and I are here answering your questions. By the way, if you want your question to answer, go to BiggerPockets forums, ask those questions. We pick them there or you can always send Henry or I a message and we pick a lot of questions from there as well. Our next one, though, comes from Nick in upstate New York, who says, I'm a 19 year old real estate investor. Impressive. Getting this done at 19 years old. I just closed on my first duplex last week and I'm house hacking. The tenant I'm inheriting has been here for 12 years and is on a month to month lease.
12:34Henry Washington:She pays six hundred and thirty five dollars a month and comps show that the market rent is about twelve hundred. Wow. She has been a fantastic tenant for the previous owners. Rent is always on time. She's quiet and takes care of her unit well. I have no problem with her paying slightly under market rent in hopes of retaining a great tenant, but I know it is irresponsible as a business owner to sell myself short. My other hesitation is that the previous owners are very good, quote, family friends. They started renting to her 12 years ago for$6.05 and just last summer increased it to$6.35. How would you handle a rent increase?
13:07Henry, what do you think? I love this question, first of all. And second of all, 19 years old, investing in real estate on the forums asking these questions? Man, what a head start you have. I wish I was as smart as you were when I was 19. Unfortunately, I was not. I don't think I could have typed in a sentence when I was 19. So kudos to you, Nick. I have had this situation a few times, maybe not as nuanced as this, where it's family, friends, and it's in a house hack, but I have inherited tenants paying very low rents and I've had to work with them to figure out how to get the rents where they need to be.
13:40And so first and foremost is you need to realize that you're a human being dealing with human beings. And it sounds like based on the way you phrase this question, you're already in that mindset, right? And so what I have learned managing my own properties as a landlord and trying to do it in a way that both balances being human and being a business owner, most people will work with you if you give them the opportunity to, right? And so I've always tried to approach these situations where I'm just open and honest with people. transparent and I let them know. And so if this was a situation I was dealing with, I would go to the tenant and I would try to work out a situation where I could get them to stair step their rent up to where you want them to be.
14:23And realizing that, yes, I think you're also in the right mindset of saying, hey, I'm willing to take a little less than market rents because she's a great tenant. That is the absolute right mindset. Because the first thing I tell people who ask me this question is, is the tenant a good tenant? Because if they're not a good tenant, right, you need to focus on getting them out of there anyway. Completely different process. But if they're a good tenant, they take care of the place, they pay on time, they don't bother you. That's perfect. That's ideal. The second key is getting them involved in the decision-making process.
14:52So typically what I do is I pull comps for market rents and I sit down with them and I say, hey, look, these are the comps that I have. This is what's available for rent close by, similar amenities, right? And I let them see for themselves, like, if you were to move and get something equal, this is the price point that it would be at. I understand that if you can't pay that amount yet, but I do need to get you somewhere closer to market rents. What would you feel comfortable paying as a rent for you to stay here and want to stay here? And a lot of the times they'll tell me, look, I can't do 12, but I could probably get to a thousand.
15:31Okay, cool. Let's stand then. And then you have to decide, can I work with that number? And if the answer is yes, then you figure out, well, do I raise the rent next month or do you stair step, right? You'll be able to tell through the course of the conversation and what they're saying and how they're saying it, if things are reasonable, because if you go to them and you, and they say, look, I can't pay anything over 635 period. I'm done. That's it. That's all I can do. Well, then you can't. It's not reasonable. You can't reason with that person. And you have to figure out, OK, what are my next steps now that I know they won't pay anything else?
16:00But when you're showing them the comps and you're trying to work with them and you're involving them in the decision making process, I found that that typically always works well. And so then you can determine based on what they say, do I need to stair step? Because you can do things where you say, OK, if we agree on a thousand, how soon do you think you could get to a thousand? I ask them that if they say, hey, I could probably get there over the course of the next six months, if that works for me, then we just work on stair-stepping that every month until we get there. Their rent goes up a little bit until they're at that thousand.
16:30Maybe they say a year. If you can work with that, then you stair-step them a year. You get to determine what works for you and your tenant, but involving them in the decision-making process and being transparent with them because they understand if you bought a property, you have a new mortgage, you've got things to pay. People know these things. But where I think landlords fail is they dictate things to their tenants versus including them in the decision-making process. And so if you treat them like human beings, try to include them. And I'm not saying because you include them, you have to do what they ask.
16:59What I am saying is it makes an easier way for you to transition to something meaningful if you include them.
17:06Henry Washington:I completely agree. I think that's the absolute right approach. When I was self-managing, I used to just give this speech to everyone who was one of my tenants. I would just be like, I want our entire basis of our relationship just to be reasonable. Just talk to me like you would ask a friend or a family member for a situation, and I'll do what I can. And I'm going to ask you to be reasonable about things, to let contractors in, to be reasonable. And that has worked for me 100 % of the time. I've really never had an issue with that approach. I love what you said about involving them in the decision.
17:40Henry Washington:People just generally, it's just human psychology. They want agency. They want control. And even though you're not giving up actual control, giving people a say is really powerful and meaningful and will matter for your relationship going forward. If you've listened to any of the episodes with Dion McNeely, he like sort of patented the binder strategy. Have you heard that? What he calls the binder strategy? Yeah. It's the same idea, but he basically shows his tenants what rents are in the area. Like he pulls comps and prints them out and shows them to them. I think in a situation like this, you can even, if you wanted to, show what rent was 12 years ago and how rents have changed over the last 12 years recently.
18:21Henry Washington:If you want to, you don't have to beat people over the head with data, but if you can show how much taxes have gone up over the 12 years. There are real reasons why rent goes up. There has been enormous inflation across this country in the last 12 years, and not changing rents is not a tenable option for real estate investors. Now, you don't have to maximize and squeeze every drop out of the tenant. I highly recommend against doing that. I don't think that's the human thing to do, nor do I think it's good business. And I think that what Henry suggested is absolutely the right way to do it. I think the numbers you gave, Henry, are a perfect example.
18:57Henry Washington:Would you personally take 1 ,000 over 1 ,200? Absolutely, for the right tenant. 100%. If they move out and you have two months of vacancy, that's pretty much a wash, right? So wouldn't you rather keep a great tenant for a wash? Like it's a no-brainer. People get obsessed with their absolute, like people really, I think in general, get obsessed about their rent numbers when every experienced investors know it's your net cashflow that matters. Like the gross rent number doesn't matter. If you have vacancy, it's going to eat away at that and that crushes your deal. Every month of vacancy, just keep this in mind, that's 8 % of revenue you lose.
19:35Henry Washington:You lose two months, that's 16 % of your revenue. That's enough to take almost any deal from cash flowing to negative. So just keep that stuff in mind. This is why we harp so hard about underwriting conservatively. I think what happens when people get in this situation is they underwrote buying that deal, assuming they're gonna get the highest best rent number possible. And that's how the numbers worked. And then you get into a situation like this and you realize I'm not gonna get that. or if I do, it's going to take me a year before I can get there and I'm going to lose a lot of money in between then.
20:08So if you underwrite conservatively, where you underwrite based on a lower rent number, the mid tier of the rent price range, maybe even the low end of the rent range, and then you buy a deal that pencils, you have room to be able to take care of people like this.
20:22Henry Washington:This is playing out for me all the time right now. I don't know about you, but I'm not getting top market rents these days when I have renewals. I'm usually able to keep rent, but there have been a couple of units where I've had to lower rent, especially in Denver. If you guys follow the news, Denver is not doing great on rent growth, which is fine because I underwrote them this way. I have great property managers. I have great agents. They say, hey, you're going to get 1 ,500, 1 ,600 bucks. When I underwrite it, I say 1 ,350. I'm like 10 % below what they tell me because I want that flexibility.
20:56Henry Washington:I don't want to be strapped. I love being in a position where the property manager comes to me and like, actually, I can only get$1 ,450. I'm like, great. I underwrote a$1 ,350. This is excellent. I'm not worried about that. But when you set yourself up to only succeed if things go perfect, that is just a recipe for failure all the time. So to Nick, I think you know what to do. Hopefully, this is a good answer. And let us know what happens because I actually, I bet if you follow Henry's advice, you're going to find a mutually beneficial situation, which is what Henry and I are always talking about.
Read the full transcript
21:28Henry Washington:Find mutual benefit. It's the best thing for business. It's the best thing for you. All right, let's move on to question number three, which comes from Morgan in Houston, where we just were. By the way, we ate at this great barbecue place, Pendleton's. I just saw it made top 10 barbecue in the country. Best ribs I've had in a long time. Anyway, go to Pendleton's. Morgan in Houston wants to talk about real estate, not barbecue. though. Morgan says, I want to get started with real estate in Texas, and I'm going back and forth between the BRRRR or a fix and flip. I have a good amount of cash, 100K or more to invest, and I want to take a risk, but not a huge loss.
22:03Henry Washington:Don't we all? And I don't want to rent a property or deal with tenants, but I am open to the idea if it is advantageous. What are your thoughts for a rookie? Yeah, this is an interesting one based on what was said in the question, because it says I don't want to rent a property or deal with tenants, but I'm open to the idea of it's advantageous. Well, first of all, being a landlord is very financially advantageous. I think that's why a lot of us are here. And so I think that that's the question you need to get comfortable with first, right? Because if you go into this not wanting to be a landlord and trying to get yourself sold on being a landlord by taking on your first property, I mean, you're going to get punched in the mouth.
22:46Being a landlord is tough. There's a lot of problems that come with it. And the benefits are more long-term than short-term. Getting into this business and expecting to buy a property that's just going to go perfectly, you're going to be making all this cash flow from day one, it doesn't work like that. You have to have a long-term mindset. So if you aren't mentally prepared to be a landlord, take on some short-term pain and get the gain in the long term, then you probably shouldn't be looking into burrs at all.
23:18Henry Washington:Totally. I think you basically have a choice to make, Morgan. One, you said, I want to take a risk, but not a huge loss. Those things aren't 100 % compatible. Risk and reward work in a continuum. The higher the risk you take, the bigger the potential reward. So if you're saying that you want to take a risk, you have to be open to the idea of loss. That is just investing in general. People who invest in Bitcoin have had amazing returns. People have also lost fortunes in Bitcoin. If you want a just safe investment, go buy bonds. You'll earn a 4 % return and you'll be fine. But if you want to take a risk, you have to be comfortable with the loss.
23:55Henry Washington:So I really think you need to figure out where you want to fall on this risk continuum. Because if you're comfortable with risk and loss, go flip houses. I think that's probably the right answer for you because you seem to not want to deal with tenants. In my opinion, BRRRR is a lower risk strategy than flipping. And so if you instead want to focus on not taking big losses and can warm up to the idea of having tenants, then I would say BRRRR. Because with a BRRRR, you don't have the same time pressure as a flip. You still want to do it as quickly as possible. But if you finish your renovation at a bad time to sell, you just keep it and rent it out.
24:36Henry Washington:You lose that pressure for disposition. So I think you need to sort of make a decision here because you can't have it all. Yeah, I agree. And you need to figure out, are you looking for short-term money or long-term money? Because if you want to do a fix and flip, you'll get money faster. You'll get paid, hopefully, in six to eight months. A BRRRR is probably going to take you longer. You'll pull out some of your cash, but the likelihood of you finding a deal that pencils as a burr in a short-term timeframe that's going to allow you to pull all of your cash back out and some additional profit, that's a tough sell right now.
25:14Can it be done? Yeah. Yes, it can be done, but it takes work. You're going to have to be searching for off-market deals or putting in a ton of extremely low offers on on-market deals, and it's just going to take a long time to find that. So it sounds like you need to A, figure out what kind of risk reward you want and B, when is that timeframe that you're looking to get paid? Because a burr is going to take a longer period of time. A flip can be a whole lot shorter, but a flip is going to be a bit riskier. So you've got some decisions to make for sure.
25:44Henry Washington:Honestly, once you figure out the goal, I know it sounds boring and like no one really wants to think about it, but I promise you, it sort of just makes every question after that easy. You're like, okay, should I buy this? You have this frame of reference that you can analyze any question through. It's like, should I buy this deal? No, it doesn't meet my goal. Should I buy this deal? Yes, of course. It gets you over analysis paralysis. It gets you over that overwhelmed feeling. So just take the time and think through what you really want to accomplish here. All right, well, we've got time for one more question, but before we get there, we've got to take a quick break.
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31:21All right, we are back on the BiggerPockets podcast, answering your questions from the forums. And we've got one more question, and it comes from an investor named James in Seattle. James says he's looking to buy his first house hack in the Seattle area and is finding it incredibly hard to find a property that will cash flow positive when he moves out. He says, I've had agents and lenders tell me that's a pretty great deal when I would be getting negative$1 ,400 a month in cash flow. How am I supposed to continue buying a house hack every year or two if I'm racking up more and more payments? Am I supposed to buy the house and hope that I can eventually rent and refinance?
31:59Help me make a deal in this expensive market.
32:01Henry Washington:Well, first of all, I love that this comes from someone named James in Seattle. I love the idea of this, just being James Dayner submitting questions to us. What's this whole cash flow thing? There's no juice in the cash flow, guys. There's no juice. But seriously, James, I live in the Seattle area and I sympathize. My short answer to this question is don't. This does not sound like a good deal. I wouldn't do it if I were you. I don't know what else to say. Henry and I actually recorded a show last week talking about house hacking, popular topic. Five, 10 years ago, there was almost no situation or no market I would advise against house hacking.
32:45Henry Washington:It was just a no brainer. Check the box, go do it. But in the expensive, the truly expensive markets in the country right now, these are Seattle, California, New York, Austin, Miami, like these kinds of markets, it does not make sense. I have literally done the math and it does not make sense to buy house hacks. I know BiggerPockets is partially responsible for this mindset where we've been telling people the house hack for 15 years and still for 80 % of the population, that is true. But if you're in one of these uber expensive markets, it doesn't make sense. You have two options, in my opinion.
33:22Henry Washington:You either do heavy value add strategy, which is what I have resorted to since moving to Seattle. This is why I started flipping houses for the first time, because you absolutely can make money in Seattle doing that strategy, or you have to invest out of state. This is why I do both. I invest out of state for cashflow and for long-term rentals. I am trying my hand. I wouldn't say I'm a flipper yet, but I'm dabbling in flipping a little bit because I enjoy real estate. I want to be doing deals where I live. And so the only way that that makes sense for me right now is to do heavy value add in the form of flipping.
33:58Henry Washington:I'm also starting to look at value add rental properties, like buying stuff that really needs a lot of work and doing that. But house hacking here, it just doesn't work. It doesn't make sense right now. Here's the framework that I kind of look at in terms of should you house hack or not. If you're looking at house hack deals, especially just consider a duplex. If you're living in a place where you're looking at a duplex, and if you buy it, live in it, rent out the other unit, and your remaining mortgage payment is still as much as it would cost you just to go rent a place by yourself, you should not house hack.
34:33It's not going to work.
34:34Henry Washington:Well, I wish rent here for a single bedroom was only$1 ,400 a month. It's probably more than that. But you can rent a nice apartment in Seattle for$2 ,000,$2 ,500 a month, especially in the neighborhoods that this, uh, that James is talking about. So it's just, it's a lot of risk and a lot of work and a lot of capital, frankly, that if you're going to go, even in, you know, listed some neighborhoods here, we won't read them to you, but you know, you're still going to have to, if you're putting, you know, 20 % down on these properties, over a hundred grand for sure. Like if it were me, I would rent and I would go find a duplex in a growing city in the Midwest and just bite the bullet.
35:14Henry Washington:It's not that bad. I do it. and everyone can figure it out. We put out a lot of resources on BiggerPockets about how you can do this as well. I offer this freely on biggerpockets.com slash resources. I made a free calculator. It's a house hack, rent, or buy calculator. Go play around with it. It will confirm what I've said. And anyone else who's thinking about these different options, just go play around with it. You will see that you're putting$80 ,000,$90 ,000 into this deal. Even if you put that in a bond, you're going to be making more money than this house hack deal. You should just think about the opportunity costs that you're giving up with this.
35:49Henry Washington:I know we talk about house hacking all the time because it does make sense, but there are situations where it doesn't make sense. This is why no matter what you do, you have to just run the numbers and see for yourself if the math pencils out. And for most people in Seattle or LA or New York or Miami, it just doesn't pencil right now and it's frustrating, but there are other ways that you can win as an investor. So go focus on those. Absolutely. You're right. It is our fault. Well, we talk about house hacking all the time because it is amazing. Blame us. But we're being honest with you about what situations it does work and what situations it doesn't work.
36:22So if you want to learn more about house hacking, you can check out a couple of previous episodes that Dave and I did. Number 1236 from a couple of weeks ago, that was all about how to analyze these specific rent versus buy decisions that we talked about today. Or you can check out episode 1182, where I talked about several ways you can add value to your house hacks and your rental properties to help you be more profitable.
36:43Henry Washington:And if you want to learn how to add value in Seattle specifically, we're literally doing a value add conference in Seattle because this is such an important question. This is a question, James, that we hear all the time. And that's why James Daynard, one of the best value add investors out there and who does it in Seattle, makes more money than Henry and I combined, is teaching us how to do this. So it's March 28th. you can get your ticket at biggerpockets.com slash Seattle. Henry and I will both be there. Henry will be teaching. I'll be in attendance learning and hope to see you guys there as well.
37:18Henry Washington:I personally am going to go start enjoying the benefits of indoor heating and shed a couple layers. But thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. We'll see you next time. Thank you all for listening to the BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast. Make sure you get all our new episodes by subscribing on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Our new episodes come out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I'm the host and executive producer of the show, Dave Meyer. The show is produced by Ian Kay. Copywriting is by Calico Content, and editing is by Exodus Media.
37:52Henry Washington:If you'd like to learn more about real estate investing or to sign up for our free newsletter, please visit www.biggerpockets.com. The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. All host and participant opinions are their own. Investment in any asset, real estate included, involves risk. So use your best judgment and consult with qualified advisors before investing. You should only risk capital you can afford to lose. And remember, past performance is not indicative of future results. BiggerPockets LLC disclaims all liability for direct, indirect, consequential, or other damages arising from a reliance on information presented in this podcast.
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From the publisher
Single-family vs. multifamily rental properties—which gets you to financial freedom faster?
A rookie real estate investor is wondering what he should do for his first rental property. Multifamily rentals can help you scale faster and have more cash flow, but single-family rentals mean fewer tenants (and fewer headaches) with less management. Dave and Henry have invested in both and have a clear answer for which is the winner.
We’re back answering your questions from the BiggerPockets Forums. First, single-family vs. multifamily—if you’re starting in real estate right now, there’s one clear choice. Next, a young landlord just inherited a tenant who’s paying 50% below-market rent. Should he raise the rent and risk losing a 12-year tenant, or follow a much more “reasonable” strategy to get them to stay and pay a fairer price?
BRRRRing vs. house-flipping: let’s say you have $100,000 ready to invest, which option gives you a higher return? BRRRRing (buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat) means you’ll have a long-term rental after the rehab, but is a flip worth it for the instant payout? And finally, we do the thing you never expected BiggerPockets to do…we tell someone not to house hack (but here’s why).
In This Episode We Cover
Single-family vs. multifamily rentals, and which Dave and Henry would almost always prefer
BRRRRing vs. flipping houses: which is lower risk in today’s housing market?
Who should not house hack, and what you should do instead with your money
Raising rents on inherited tenants: the “stair-step” strategy that Henry uses
And So Much More!
Check out more resources from this show on BiggerPockets.com and https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-1241
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