Business of Soccer Ep. 4: Soccer’s Scapegoat Or Heroic Champion; Dissecting Goalkeepers 

0:01Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcast Radio News.

0:30their country in the world. Soccer, or as I would call it, living in the UK, football is the biggest sport in the world. There's a gap in the market around women's soccer, and we're here to fill that gap. Bloomberg Business of Soccer from Bloomberg Radio. This is a special edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, The Business of Soccer. I'm Vanessa Perdomo, and I'm diving in behind the scenes of the beautiful game as we get ready for the 2026 FIFA World Cup. I am so excited for today's episode where we will be focusing all on the business of goalkeepers. As some of you may know, I was a Division I college goalkeeper, so this topic is near and dear to my heart.

1:09You might hear me get a little nerdy, but stick with me because we have some really great guests. Later, we will talk to MLS All-Star Martin Pass, but first, we are starting with legendary former U.S. Women's National Team goalkeeper, Brianna Scurry. She was one of the reasons I became a goalkeeper, and we started our conversation with talking about the legendary 1999 Women's World Cup and how it changed women's soccer and women's sports, as well as getting into why goalkeepers are often overlooked by marketers. Here's my conversation with legend, former U.S. Women's National Team goalkeeper and 99er Brianna Scurry.

1:45So it is my absolute pleasure and dream, really, to speak with you today, Brianna. U.S. Women's National Team goalkeeper, 99er Brianna Scurry. Guys, I'm fangirling over here, if you can't tell. I was a former goalkeeper, so this is really a dream for me. Brianna, thanks so much for joining the business of soccer. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for thanking me. So I appreciate that. Goalkeepers unite. Exactly. So that's exactly what I wanted to talk to you about. So I think one of the things that is really interesting when we're talking about, obviously soccer's coming up a lot this year.

2:18That's why we have this podcast. You know, we're around the corner from the World Cup. But I think in the conversation of soccer and the conversation of stars, goalkeepers get lost in this conversation. Would you agree with that? I do agree. It's a very interesting thing because America and I think the world likes goal scorers and not too fond of those of us who try to stop goals from being scored. So, I mean, it's so interesting because it's exciting. I mean, it's more exciting when a goal is scored, although we obviously think it's better when a goal is scored. I love a good save. I know, right?

2:55We love a good save. I mean, athleticism is everyone should really pay attention. That's the best. Yeah. I know. Lack of appreciation, I guess. I don't know what to say. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to start with your journey in your career. And obviously we have to start with the 99 World Cup, which, you know, is the greatest performance from a team, greatest moment in American sports. But I'm not biased at all. Don't worry about that. I don't detect any bias. So I want to start with, you know, kind of the overall arching aspect of the tournament. It's 1999. It's a World Cup in the U.S., but it's women's soccer.

3:32So it's kind of new. I want to what was your take, you know, throughout how it grew, the fever grew from group stages to the final? Well, the fact that we were even having a women's standalone event such as the World Cup was interesting and had never really been done on the scale that we were doing it. Originally, I don't know if you know this, but originally the tournament was supposed to be played regionally in small high school stadiums, two to five thousand people. But the committee decided to try to blow the doors off the thing and put it in football stadiums. And that was like three years, two, three years before.

4:11So we literally went door to door for two years selling our game and said, please, please come to our tournament. We're going to have it right here in the U.S. in your backyard. And you don't want to miss it. And so we were educating and letting people know. So then when we finally got to play our first game, you know, on a giant stadium in front of 76 ,000 people, it was truly a dream come true. I mean, it was way beyond any expectation. I mean, because there's a certain level of desire of a dream that you want to create. And then when you're actually living in it, it's very different. And so we were very emotional, that game.

4:50And, of course, now that it was happening, we had to get to business. We had to get to work. So we had a fantastic game that day and beat the team Denmark 3-0. Yeah. And obviously, I know that one of your dreams when you were younger was to be an Olympian. And you played in the Olympics, right, a couple of years before that. And that was also in the U.S. in 1996, which is kind of the first Olympics where we see women's sports become a big thing. Right. You guys win the gold medal. The U.S. basketball team wins the gold medal. and that spurs the WNBA. And then you go into the moment of the World Cup.

5:27Did that have any momentum, do you think? Or was the World Cup still kind of this new concept? Everybody knew what the Olympics was, but not everyone maybe knew what the Women's World Cup was. I think the 96 Olympic Games had a lot of momentum in it. One of the things that happened, I don't know if you recall, but they didn't show our game live at all on NBC during that 96 Olympics. because they were showing all these other different sports, but they didn't show our game live. And then we had, you know, 76 ,000 people in the stands and were favored to win. And so what you saw, if you weren't at the stadium, you saw snippets.

6:04So by the time 99 rolled around, they decided, hey, maybe we should show the whole game once in a while. People might want to watch it. So they did. And so that was one thing that changed. But I also feel like that Olympic Games was the year of the woman. It truly was. and a lot of our collective sports teams in the United States won gold. And I think that really had a shift in how women's sports was perceived, especially team sports. And so when we were trying to do this standalone World Cup tournament, a lot of people were skeptical because they were like, oh, well, yeah, the Olympics, of course.

6:41Who doesn't want to see the Olympics? And who wouldn't want to go to a game, a gold medal game? And they were saying, well, this is very different. But we believed differently from them and we thought we could pull it off. So I feel like the two combined tournaments really had an impact on each other. And so for me, we had great momentum going into the 99 World Cup because of the 96 Olympics. Right. And so you win in the ultimate fashion of penalty kick shootout, which I it's my favorite way to win. I think it's just like the most incredible feeling. I don't think there's anything that beats it.

7:18But did you expect the fervor that you guys got after winning 99? I feel like we kind of thought there would be some real fire in women's game, especially in women's soccer after we won. But I don't think we truly understood the magnitude. At least I didn't. You know, went from relative obscurity, you know, leading into the World Cup start to completely everybody knowing who I was right after we won. A lot of fame and a lot of, you know, notoriety and truly relief that we had won actually was very, very overwhelming. And so that that fire was lit. And of course, like you said earlier, the 96 Olympics led to the WNBA.

8:07the 99 World Cup led to the WUSA, which was our first women's league here in the United States. And so there was a lot of fire. Also, I will say that the fact that we won the way we did really did play a factor. My save was one, but also Brandy taking off her shirt after her goal showed that women could be strong and beautiful at the same time. And so I think that changed a lot of perspectives about women's athletics and especially women's soccer in the United States. Yeah, absolutely. Watching the PKs, I think I probably watch it maybe once a year. It gives me chills to this day. And I remember watching it and the way you acted after making that save.

8:53It's the pumping of the fist, like up and down. You're so pumped. And I feel like as a goalkeeper, you can stay pretty poised throughout a game when you make a save, you know, but there's something about like saving a PK, right? That is just the greatest feeling ever. Would you agree? Is that like your favorite part of a game is saving a PK or like the favorite moment, like adrenaline moment, do you think? I really do. It's an explosion of emotion. So for me, saving PKs, you know, we had a mandate, essentially, you know, I had to save one and that was the goal. And if I could save two, that would be spectacular.

9:30But one was the was the requirement. And so I really focused on that thing. And truth be told, you know, PKs are hard. I mean, it is, you know, the number apparently the number seven hardest thing to do is to save a penalty kick. So in sports. And so I was happy about that. But obviously, I really had, you know, all eyes on you, right? 90 ,000 people holding their collective breath, waiting for you to hopefully spring forward and make a save. And I was able to do that. And I felt like I had to do my part. And I knew that number three kicker was the one. When I walked into that goal, I knew that was the one I was going to save.

10:09And sure enough, I did. Was it just like the feeling you got stepping up to the line? Or how, why did you know that was the one? So traditionally, my, my MO was to turn my back to my teammates kicking because I had nothing, nothing to do with that. That wasn't within my power of control. And so I didn't want to put anything into my mind that I couldn't control. But my MO had been to not look at the kickers as they were approaching the spot. But for some reason, that number three kicker, something in my mind said, look. And so I looked at her and I knew. I just knew she was the one I was going to save.

10:49She didn't really look like she wanted to kick. She didn't seem like she was very confident. And I just really felt that this was the one. And sure enough, it was. I have to get a little nerdy about goalkeeping for a second and just like ask you about the style that you have when you're, you know, on the line. You would take multiple steps. I mean, you wait for the whistle, wait for the wait for the contact, but then take multiple steps off the line. I mean, I feel like usually people have about you can take like one step and like that's pretty much it. You know, I'm curious how you develop that style and like would you teach it to goalkeepers today?

11:28Well, today is a little bit different. And obviously, right. So back then, the the goalkeeper on the line rule was was very gray. A lot of referees didn't call it. They didn't really say anything about it. It was very, very gray line. And so because of that, we trained it in practice. And so we were trying to to get as big an advantage as we could. And if the referee was going to call it, call it back, if I save it, I was completely aware and OK with that. But as it turned out, they didn't. And so if you interesting thing, too, if you go back and look, the Chinese keeper was also stepping off the line.

12:06But she just unfortunately for her didn't get lucky enough to get one. So but now you can now you can step off the line as long as you keep that one toe on the line. And I honestly believe that my penalty kick save changed the course of the rules for goalkeepers on PK. It's been it's been changed over a few times over the 30 years that it's been. But yeah, I mean, we trained it like that. We trained it like that. That's such another iconic thing. You know, the way I saved it, you know, they had to change it because of what I did. I love it. Okay, that was me getting a little in the weeds. Sorry, guys.

12:49I had to ask about it. But I want to go back to the point that you were making about the way you guys won and how that propelled everything a little bit more. And you mentioned Brandy taking her shirt off, which is one of the most iconic photos ever cover of Sports Illustrated. I think it was on the Wheaties box or something like that as well. But the goalkeeper, I mean, you made the save. That was the reason why you can go and win, right? I mean, there's no winning without them missing a shot. But it doesn't happen for you the same way afterwards. I mean, you mentioned people know your name afterwards, you're famous afterwards, but the marketability and the dollars aren't the same.

13:36Can you talk a little bit about that and why you think it was such? yeah so for the longest time um i wondered about it i i thought to myself well at first i was like well is it because i'm a goalkeeper versus a forward you know maybe the market isn't ready for goalkeepers to be heroes and then i thought well is it because of the color of my skin is it because i'm black or is it because of my sexual orientation because i'm gay and all these different things I was thinking about. And as it turned out in my, in my like looking back on it, it unfortunately I think was because of being out and also because being black.

14:17And so, because as, as the years went on, other goalkeepers were given or were awarded, if you will, notoriety and appreciation, not only in their countries, but by the media. And I think the The truth of the matter is, in my opinion, is the media wasn't ready for me. I was way before my time. We mentioned an openly gay black woman in the 90s. You know, this was not today. I was the only one. Right. Nobody else was doing any of the sort. So I was the only one. And I think that, you know, the social impact, the societal impact wasn't quite ready for me yet. But now that has really changed the last few years.

15:01So I'm actually more grateful because it's actually now bigger, in my opinion, for me now than it would have been back then. How do you mean? Bigger for you now. Well, I think. Yeah. So I think when people look back on the moment, they they have an appreciation for what has evolved from there. And now in society, it's not taboo to be out and it's not taboo to be a player of color either. and also the fact that I did what I did and I became, you know, essentially an iconic person over time. Now media is appreciating me more. I have a lot more sponsorships and partnerships and companies that are wanting to align with me.

15:44And I think also because I've had a lot of integrity about, you know, appreciating my role and where we've come from and all my teammates as well. You know, we've continued to make an impact on this game, even though we don't play anymore. And I feel now it's truly being appreciated. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to hear about that, you know, because obviously, you know, for people who don't know your story, they can go buy your book and you have a documentary out as well. And it's a really incredible story. But there was a point where the iconicism or so was lost for the 99 team in general and your story in general, and there was really hard years.

16:28When did you start seeing that come back around? So the hard years, traditionally speaking, were the dark years, which is the time when the eye shifts from the women's game to the men's game. And so you tend to see some difficulty financially, an ebb, if you will, in time. And for me, over the course of several years after the Women's World Cup, unfortunately, the WSA and the WPS both ended up folding literally before three seasons were played. And so there was a real question mark about whether or not this country could sustain a women's soccer league, a professional league. And so that was really difficult for a lot of players to deal with.

17:15it's hard to keep your skill set up and sharp if there's no league to play in. And so we all really struggled. But then finally, NWSL came along and we were able to maintain that. And now, you know, you're seeing a lot of great players come out of that league, not only from the United States side, but also from around the world, different players coming to play in it. And so I feel like now you are really seeing an evolution and an explosion of women's soccer in this country, essentially because we continue to win on the national team side and maintaining that excitement with winning and producing and then able to parlay that into a new league, which now stands on its own.

18:02Right. Absolutely. Even though we have to get back to winning because 2023. It wasn't our year, but the good thing about that is actually, I love to see the international game growing as well, so that there is a lot more competition that makes the win that more satisfying. But getting back to goalkeepers a little bit, and you mentioned it that maybe at the time there was obviously all these other factors that led you to not be the most marketable player, but I also think it's interesting when we're looking at goalkeepers, it's a cyclical thing. I mean, there's only been really three goalkeepers of the U.S.

18:40women's national team in the last 30 years. I mean, 30 years, that's really crazy. But I think that there's something there too that, yes, the other players and other goalkeepers in general and internationally have been able to find some footing, but there also has to be this other element to it, like this first, right? You were this iconic first player, the 99ers and all of that. Hope Solo was very notorious for many things, you know, positive and negative, made a lot of headlines. But I would say that a lot of my friends who are casual fans don't really know who Alyssa Nair necessarily is by name.

19:21So I think there has to be this other thing that propels people beyond for people to notice goalkeepers. Do you think that's on the media side? Do you think it's a personality thing? Like, what would you say that that is? Well, yeah, that's a really fascinating point to make. First of all, let me say that when it comes to winning with the women's side, the teams that are playing the World Cup and the Olympics tend to be the same people. On the men's side, it's different. so when you talk about cycles um world cup is first and the Olympics are right after uh every single cycle team USA has won either the Olympic gold or the world cup championship and so I think in those those few cycles where we were winning Olympic gold instead of world cup gold um it's the same team and so you have that notoriety I feel like what happened with Alyssa is I think that the light shifted from goalkeepers being able to essentially take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the team to the final, and then we figure out how to win it, to the field players.

20:36You had Megan Rapinoe. You had Abby Wambach. You've had a lot of different players now. You had Kristen Press, Tobin Heath, Lindsay Horan, all these great names. And the goalkeeper, Alyssa, didn't have to do as much, I feel like, as Hope and I had to do. And so her name wasn't really in the media that much. But the truth is, in my opinion, she proved herself in 2019. Because there was no way that that team would have won that World Cup if it weren't for Alyssa. and but she was greatly overshadowed by Alex Morgan by Megan Rapinoe and just by all the different things that were going on and the first time us winning World Cup in a long time so there was a lot going on there and and that got a lot more attention than Elissa did unfortunately but she is a brilliant goalkeeper I've met her several times watched her play and she's got all the goods And we've been very blessed with great goalkeeping here for the women's side for decades.

21:38Yeah, absolutely. Also, she's a PK saving machine. Yes, I know. Exactly. You can bank it, right? You can take it to the bank that she's going to save at least one, if not two. I think it's interesting, you know, in your new, your like second half career, you know, you work with brands. You said you have more partnerships now. You've been part of a team and things like that. Have you had conversations with brands about the power of goalkeepers and telling their story? And like we said, I mean, if I was a brand and I was going to invest in a player, I would invest in a player who's going to be in that seat for 10 years.

22:16You know, you know what I'm saying? So have you had those conversations with brands? I have had those conversations, not only with goalkeepers in general. I mean, I explained to them how goalkeeping is a foundation of a team. And at one point in time, if you go back in time and look at every single team that's won a world championship or Olympic championship at one point in time in that run, the goalkeeper had the team on their shoulders. And so if you don't have strong defensive goalkeeping, then you're not going to win. That's just how it works. And so who better to have represent you if you're if you're a company that wants to, you know, talk about strength or teamwork or camaraderie or leadership.

22:58But goalkeepers are all those things wrapped into one. And in my case, I feel like not only my goalkeeper, but I was also a trailblazer. And so I understand how to how to literally blaze trails and make make something there that was not there before. And so for me, I think the important thing, too, with goalkeepers is we tend to be rather cerebral in our ability to decide who goes where and shift our teammates in positions to be strong as a team. I mean, I feel like one of my greatest traits was my ability to communicate to my backs and put them in the right position for them to be successful.

23:40And so all these steps of success, these attributes of success are all the same, whether you're on the pitcher in the boardroom. That was my conversation with Hall of Fame goalkeeper Bryanna Scurry. This is a special edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, The Business of Soccer. Up next, we'll hear from FC Dallas goalkeeper Martin Paz. I'm Vanessa Perdomo. This is Bloomberg.

24:09You're listening to a special edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, The Business of Soccer. I'm Vanessa Perdomo. My next guest is MLS All-Star goalkeeper Martin Pass. He joined us to discuss how he's used his position to build a business portfolio, which includes his own glove line, ownership into professional padel, and other emerging sports. We also discussed the growth of the MLS and how the league is positioned to skyrocket after the World Cup. Let's listen to my conversation with FC Dallas goalkeeper Martin Pass. First and foremost, I want to get from you, when did you become a goalkeeper?

24:45At what point when you were playing the sport? Because I feel like at every point it's different for everyone. Yeah, it's very different for me than I think the usual. I was a striker until I was 15 and I was a futsal goalkeeper indoor football goalkeeper before that and then I was a good striker but when outside came into the game around the age of 11 I found out that I was a bit lazy to be honest that I didn't want to run that much and I lost the fun for being striker around that age to be honest but I was in the highest like team so I wanted to keep my spot there and then at 15 I became sort of like a yeah very lazy striker didn't want to go to practices anymore I wasn't yeah particularly obsessed and then my coach came to me and he said like Luke every time we practice and you're put into goal I see you really enjoying it and I see you not enjoying being a striker and then I took like a gamble I took a chance like, let's do it.

25:55Let's put the gloves on and let's try it a year. There was an open spot at the highest team of my amateur club. And then I developed so quickly from that. And then, yeah, within two years, I was playing for my national team for age group older. So that was like very surrealistic a little bit. And yeah, but that's the way how it started. That's really interesting. Do you know, it's interesting because I feel like I said, like everyone has their own sort of place with it. But I do think when I talk to a lot of people at the highest level, goalkeepers at the highest level, it's almost, oh, yeah, I kind of found it later.

26:35But the athleticism really like helped you, you know, so it helps. So you would say that it helped you love the game of soccer again, finding the position? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I was definitely not enjoying it anymore. And then since I put the gloves on, I was asking for practices. I went to trade with the under-70s, under-19s, and the first team right away. I practiced four times a day almost. My body didn't like it that much because the field was artificial turf and I got very much hip problems and shoulder problems. But once I got settled in and, yeah, I got used to it, I started to improve very fast.

27:22So, yeah, definitely, yeah, I felt like I found my passion, found my obsession. And then, yeah, I really was very keen on learning the little details to become better and better. What was it about the position for you that you fell in love with? I think I very have a big memory of the first time I found the love for goalkeeping and it was when I was still very young. There was the Euros, the European Championships and Holland played at that time Sweden and it went to PKs and Edwin van der Sar stopped the big PK. and yeah it was kind of my first big tournament that I watched as a kid and he was the hero and I was like oh I want to be like like like that guy and I want to fly and and yeah make these beautiful saves and then I remember every time I went into a pool I went underneath the water and tried to like simulate the saves that that he made and then yeah and then yeah what I said I became like futsal goalkeeper and outside field player.