‘Ripping Wax’ on Trading Cards, Investing in Triathletes

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1:31If you're playing money ball with a huge bag of money, you're going to be really, really good. Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports, where we explore the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm Vanessa Perdomo alongside Damian Sassauer. Michael Barr will be back next week. Coming up on the show, we'll talk with the CEO of professional triathletes organization, Sam Renoff, about a big new investment in how PTO wants to take triathlons to the next level. The professional triathletes, they got together and said, look, our sport has grown phenomenally since it got into the Olympic Games in 2000.

2:07But maybe, you know, the economics and the commercial side not quite living up to its potential. And so we together formed the PTO in the mirroring, you know, the PGA Tour and what they did in the 60s and the ATP in tennis in the 80s. So that's how it all came together. It was started by the athletes for the athletes. We'll also talk trading card collectibles with the owner of Bleeker Trading, Matt Winklereed. All that is straight ahead on the Bloomberg Business of Sports. But first, while the NFL is gearing up for the 2025 regular season, the NFL Players Association is trying to recover from a series of scandals that led to the executive director Lloyd Howell to resign.

2:44Bloomberg Originals chief correspondent Jason Kelly recently sat down with the former NFLPA executive, Demora Smith, on a recent episode of The Deal with Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly. Here's a portion of that conversation. Even though you have those kind of battles on both sides of the aisle, there is room for business. There is room for compromise. But sometimes those compromises, as somebody like Alex knows, your first year in the league was the strike. Right. And so you end up resolving or coming to some sort of compromise on these on these business deals. But I think every now and then people forget that sometimes there's a preceding war and it's full of personalities.

3:25It's full of intricate business decisions. But but also this idea that a group of people on one side can have a good war with the people on the other side. And sometimes good things come out of it. That's former NFLPA executive director Demora Smith speaking to Jason Kelly and Alex Rodriguez on the latest episode of The Deal. Jason joins Damian and me to talk more about what the NFL could do to fight for change. Jason, welcome back to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. I love being gassed up here on the Bloomberg Business of Sports by both of you. Demora Smith. Demora Smith came on the deal. You got to talk to us about, you know, the former NFL Players Association head in today's day and age with what's going on.

4:07Jason, what did he lay on you? I mean, what a character this guy is. I don't know if you guys have had a chance to meet him, VP. I think you've met him maybe over the years. So longtime head of the NFL, PA, and was a character in the job and is a character outside of it. And now that he is really free to speak his mind, he really does it. He's got a new book out. It's called Turf Wars, The Fight for the Soul of America's Game. He really goes there and gives a lot of juicy behind-the-scenes tidbits about when he was there, which I'm sure you guys have read into. You know, on the show, it was an interesting conversation with him because obviously my co-host, Alex Rodriguez, has a very unique perspective having been a player represented by a players association.

4:52Obviously, Marvin Miller was the legendary head of the PA on the baseball side. You know, Alex obviously worked very closely with them when he was a player. But now here's Alex Rodriguez, team owner in the NBA and the WNBA, having to be on the other side of the table dealing with collective bargaining agreements, dealing with the players associations, both in men's basketball and women's basketball. So did you see Alex's brain kind of churning in this conversation? Absolutely. It was really interesting because Alex and I talk a lot on the show and off the show about all these cool roles that he can play in these sorts of conversations.

5:30And, you know, these are two guys who, you know, have obviously crossed paths over the years. And so you could definitely see Alex asking questions and asking some really good questions about different negotiations that that D was leading. You know, he did the CBA back in 2011, I believe. And so sort of understanding how important that job is. But to your point now, Alex is obviously looking at it from literally the other side of the table. But one of the things that came out very clearly in our conversation is how hard these jobs are. These are really intense negotiations. You know, you are when you're representing the players, you're representing a huge wide swath of, you know, in his case, men who, you know, want generally the same thing.

6:20But, you know, also need to literally collectively bargain. And on the other side of the table, you have Roger Goodell, the commissioner. You have the league officials. You also have, you know, several dozen owners who all have different perspectives. And so he talked with us and he talks a lot in the book about Robert Kraft and sort of what he learned from him. And, you know, oftentimes these guys, this came out pretty clearly from from D. And, you know, Alex has given this perspective as well. You know, it can be very ferocious in the room and these are negotiations. But then, you know, at the end of the day, you are all in business together.

6:59And so I think navigating that world of being adversaries when you're negotiating a contract, but then also realizing that you are business partners at the end of the day. Well, the interesting thing there is like your business partners. But then at the end of the day, his book is called The Fight for the Soul of Football. Right. So it's sort of they are going against each other in a way. So I'm curious from his perspective of what he talked about going against them and what it was like. Did he feel like they actually had a fight, the power because the NFL and the owners hold so much power? It's a great question.

7:36I mean, listen, I think, and this is where, again, I'm just like always be selling my own show. But, you know, it is one thing we get into a lot on the deal is this notion of the modern athlete is in an entirely different position than he or she was in, you know, 10, 20, certainly 30 or 40 years ago. I do think the NFL, and Dee talks a bit about this, has had to get religion around how important the players are at the end of the day. How important their safety is. How important their well-being is. How important their financial well-being is. Because, you know, at the end of the day, there is no game.

8:25There is no NFL without the players. They still have less power than the NBA. True. Than even the MLB stars probably do. And I think, yeah, that would be an interesting debate. I think the NBA is probably number one in terms of the athlete power. I do think the NFL, I think what Dee would say is the NFL has definitely made strides over the past, call it five to ten years. Certainly further along than they were. But part of that has been forced, and I think you bring up a really good point, VP, part of that has been forced by what they see in the NBA. You know, that the NBA has had, I think, the NBA players probably would say they've had a friendlier relationship with Adam Silver than maybe the NFL players have had with Roger Goodell.

9:14I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I think that's probably fair. Well, Jason, you know, I have to ask you this, right? Right. I mean, DeMora served as the NFL Player Association's executive director for 14 years from 2009 to 2023. So in that time, he oversaw the 2011 NFL lockout, the subsequent CBA negotiations, Deflategate. He was also involved in the negotiations for a CT settlement for concussion related injury. And you talk about players' well-being and health. And given what just happened here in New York City last month, I'm just curious, and maybe you didn't acknowledge it there, during your conversation, but would you, taking a step back, think that DeMorris was really, truly focused on that at the time when that agreement was settled?

9:59Because you look back and people have argued that the money just really doesn't do service for the families and the people involved. I mean, I don't want to put words in Dee's mouth. I do think safety has been at the forefront of just about every conversation for anyone who's representing the players. I think it's not controversial to say it has been one of the sort of stiffest fights between, you know, among the league, the owners and the players and is continuing. I mean, the shooter wasn't even an NFL player. So what are we really talking about? But nevertheless, the fact that that's where the shooter arrived, it's just an amazing thing.

10:38And look, I mean, you know, I guess, you know, we got you here. I got to ask you, what's DeMores doing now? You know, what's he into? What's his life look like? I mean, what does he think about when he's lying in bed at night? What does he look like in the morning? Well, I think he's relieved that he's not in this job anymore. He might be getting a call. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, there's been a lot that's happened subsequently as well with his successor. His successor resigning under a lot of pressure, Lloyd Howell, over a conflict that he had being associated or being an employee or an advisor to the Carlisle Group, which, as you know, is one of the firms that has been approved to buy stakes in NFL teams.

11:21He resigned under some pressure. Our colleagues at ESPN have done an incredible job, their investigative unit, really uncovering a lot of what was going on, not just with that association that Howell had with Carlisle Group, but with some other indiscretions, shall we say, that he had along the way. They've named an interim director, David White. There were some reports that they might bring D back in on an interim basis. I don't know whether he officially declined that, but he... I'm checking Pablo Torres finds out every day, Jason. He did talk about someone else who's done an incredible job on that story.

12:03You know, the reality is, is that we, I think, I speak for Alex when I say this, we definitely got a sense from Dee that he is glad to not be in the job. He's glad that he did it. But the sort of what it took out of him was a lot. And so I think he's, you know, he's charting his next course, figuring out what he wants to do next. I think writing this book was a real process of processing in a lot of ways, sort of what he went through and some of the things that he did. Well, it's interesting that they would even, or there would be reports that they consider it, because is the book not a burn it to the ground type of thing?

12:43What was the most shocking thing about it? I mean, I think it was, Damien said, Damien mentioned a couple different things, calling out players, talking about negotiations that happen. I do think, it's an interesting question, would they actually go back to someone who basically just aired a little bit of Dirty Laundry? Maybe more than a little bit. I think that it's all true. It's all honest. And I think one of the things that always came through about D, having known him a little bit before, and Alex and I agree on this, and then having had this conversation with him for the show, he is who he is.

13:29And so I don't think anybody in the NFL who's reading this book is shocked by what he said because they knew he was going to say it. And I do think that's what made him such a powerful advocate when he had the PA job was that he was going there. And that's part of his – I think it's not just part of his charm. I think it's part of his effectiveness. Our thanks to Bloomberg Originals Chief Correspondent Jason Kelly for joining us today. Catch the latest episode of his show, The Deal, with Alex Rodriguez and Jason Kelly featuring former NFLPA Executive Director Demora Smith. You can listen to the full episode on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

14:09Coming up, Ripping Wax with the owner of sports memorabilia and collectibles company, Bleeker Trading. For Damian Sassauer, I'm Vanessa Perdomo. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio around the world.

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15:32So be sure to search for Bloomberg Intelligence on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen. Listen in the afternoons on your way home from work to catch up on the market news you missed during the business day. That is the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. I'm Scarlett Fu. And I'm Paul Sweeney. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts. This is Bloomberg Business of Sports From Bloomberg Radio This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports Where we explore the big money issues In the world of sports I'm Vanessa Perdomo Alongside Damian Sassauer Michael Barr will be back next week The National Sports Collectors Convention Wrapped up its event last weekend In Rosemont, Illinois And here to chat about the boom In trading cards and more Is the owner of Bleaker Trading Matt Winkleleid Matt, welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports.

16:18Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. All right. The market for collectibles, specifically sports trading cards, is huge and apparently rising. I mean, the numbers I'm looking at right now, it's approximately$14 billion in 2021. But by 2032,$49 billion. That's what the market value. That is unbelievable. Talk to us about that growth and how Bleaker Trading is positioned to get involved. Absolutely. I mean, it's really exciting to see what's going on in the hobby. The industry is having a moment, right? When you look at what the sports industry is doing with the media rights deals and evaluations of teams, there is tremendous amount of growth happening in the hobby because it's direct link to pop and how people follow sports or follow Pokemon, follow what they love to collect.

17:05So there's this great, great momentum in the hobby in terms of how people are engaging with it. Do you know what's interesting is I feel like I hear about it now a lot more. I mean, as we were talking about, it's growing right now. I hear about it a lot more than I feel like I have. Was there a lull in the sort of digital age that people stopped collecting for a while? And did something kind of bring it back to this sense of popularity? I think what brought it back, obviously, was COVID. Everyone was stuck at home trying to figure out what to do with themselves. and people pulling out their old binders saying, oh my God, I have these old Pokemon cards.

17:41Let's see what I can do with them. Really got people back into the hobby. But in terms of like the lull, I would say from just my own personal experience, I definitely took a lull for like 15 years from when I was in middle school going into high school and ultimately got back into it last year and then became a customer of Bleeker. So is there a like age then gap? Like it's kids and then like adults. I think it varies from person to person, but our demographic at our shop ranges from 10-year-olds to 70-year-olds. So it's interesting because when I grew up, it was the chase for the Don Mattingly rookie card.

18:18And his fleet. You wanted the fleet. You don't want the tops. And then it was like Mark McGuire and Wade Boggs. I guess to Vanessa's point, we did have a lull. And I'm curious. You guys are both a little bit younger than me. Pokemon trading cards, is that kind of like your generation? Like, was that a thing for y 'all? Because I remember my kids, you know, sweating that stuff. And I wonder if that kind of set the stage for this comeback in the industry. I mean, for me, I was always a collector of Pokemon for sure. In terms of my age demographic, I would say it was a combination of, you know, the Michael Jordan era and the Pokemon era.

18:51The Pokemon craze was just absolutely outrageous. My mom would always go wait at our local toy store for PAX and she would call the toy store to make sure, hey, keep a couple of the side for me. But I would say Pokemon obviously had this incredible run during the 90s, early 2000s. But sports cards really stayed true to what they were. But the interesting thing there, when we're talking about the difference between Pokemon and sports trading cards, I was talking to the PSA president earlier this year, Ryan Hodge, about it. And he said that even though sports trading cards are getting a bigger share of the market, Pokemon still is dominating the space.

19:27Absolutely. Is that right? Absolutely. Same with our store, too. Right? We would say when you look at our sales, 60 % of our sales are Pokemon TCG products. Yeah. It's insane. Like people really want it. And I think there's a nostalgia aspect to it, right? At least for me, every time I opened a Pokemon pack, I go back in time to when I was 10 years old, waking up in the morning on my birthday, my mom having every single Pokemon pack she could possibly get her hands on and just ripping it and seeing what I got. Is there still that same value to it at auction and things like that for Pokemon that there is for sports memorabilia?

19:58Absolutely. Absolutely. I think the inherent value of the TCG products right now is astronomically higher than it was 10 years ago. All right, Matt. You've got to answer this one for me, right? Absolutely. I've seen these, I guess, these memes, these TikToks, whatever, of these kids opening old decks of cards. Yeah. And it is red, red hot. Yeah. And I think about that, and I think about bleaker trading, and specifically the name is bleaker trading. You know, you're facilitating the movement of all these sports cards, collectibles, etc. Do you take any inventory? I mean, do you have to take inventory to be, I guess, a market maker, a trader of sports cards?

20:38Or are you just connecting people? Like, you know where that 1952 Topps rookie Mickey Mantle card is hiding. You know, you can help another investor maybe bid on it or get to it. I mean, how do you guys work? Well, so we're primarily a retail shop, but we're also more of an event space. And our mantra is we're not just a card shop. we're a hospitality business. Got it. So we're not helping you just find those cards. We're creating a community around the hobby space. And I think that's what our bread and butter is, right? We want people to come hang out at the shop, rip, see what they get. And if they pull a big card, they can either sell it to us or they can grade it.

21:12Is that what you call it? Ripping? Yes. So ripping wax is what they call it. Man, that's an industry tournament for you. I wonder what the gum in some of those packs are. By the way, it's still in there. It's got to still be in there, right? In our junk wax area, we have 1989 Topps packs still with the gum in there. I don't advise to eat it, but it's still in there. It's like going back in time. It's really amazing. But ripping wax comes from back in the day. Those trading cards were wrapped in wax paper. So you had to rip that open, and that's why it's called ripping wax. I would always keep them protected in my...

21:40Some of these cards, I mean, the numbers I'm seeing, million dollar, two million dollar, three million dollar Michael Jordan cards. I mean, you can't keep that in your house, can you? I mean, do you provide security and a safe, I guess? I mean, like people can come and see it under glass. I mean, that's like, it's like, yeah. Cards, yeah. So cards that we own are in our lock showcase or in our safe. But in terms of like high value cards like that, like the Gem Mint 10 1952 mantle is held at either, I forget which vault it's at, but it's in a vault. So there are companies that have vaulting services to where you can keep those higher end items.

22:16Got it. So you don't keep them in your house. But I usually like to collect, keep my cards in my house because I just like, I like looking at them. I was holding them. That's how I would be, of course. As we're talking about these million-dollar cards and things like that, Kaitlyn Clark's rookie card just sold for$660 ,000 a couple of weeks ago. And that went up from, Damien,$366 ,000 four months ago. Yes. Okay? So are we going to see one of her cards sell for a million dollars this year, do you think? I'd like to hope so. I think it depends on the card, obviously. I mean, that card was the fall.

22:46Depends on how the Fever do in the playoffs. That's true, too. But even if they make the playoffs, though. Right. But it's also her fandom and her popularity, right? That also is a driver of the market. But that$660 ,000 card is her flawless shield. And that is the coveted card that you're looking for when you're opening that product, right? The Michael Jordan Kobe that is on auction right now, that has the NBA shield on it. So it's one of those things where it is the coveted card. I think that we can see a Caitlyn Clark go for a million. If not this year, next year. Well, let me riddle you this.

23:22I mean, how much of that increase, in your opinion, is due to the burgeoning popularity of the WNBA itself? And how much of that is really people thinking that, you know, Caitlin Clark is just head and shoulders, Michael Jordan above the rest? Personally, I think it's a combination of both. Combination of both. I mean, I mean, that's a huge you're right. That's a doubling in what, four months? I mean, that's a pretty, you know, you don't see that every day of the week, I guess. Is it scarcity of supply? Yes. I mean, it's a one of one. Yeah. So like there's only one of them out there, right? So but you look at the popularity of these athletes, what they do on the field, but also what they do off the field and their engagement in the hobby or in industry, what they're doing from a business perspective.

24:06Like there is inherent, there's tracking of what they're doing to that that is driving their popularity and the value of their cards. Right. Right. And as we're talking about that, and obviously have to note that it is the most, the highest selling women's card of all time, women's athlete card of all time. Have you seen, you know, the kids or whoever's coming into your store getting really into those WNBA packs as well, getting excited for it? Oh my God, yes. For anyone, for the women's cards. We can't keep WNBA on our shelves. It's awesome. I mean, I have a Cameron Brinks auto of my own in my collection, and it's one of my favorite cards, honestly.

24:38Yeah. Well, now, I mean, you just, so Bleaker Trading was around before you got involved, right? So how'd you get, how'd you find them? How'd you get affiliated with the company? And what did you see in that company that made you want to become an equity shareholder? So it's funny, right? I got introduced to the company through my sibling, actually. I was trying to get back into the hobby and my sibling texted me, was like, go check out the shop, bleaker trading. So of course I go that day and bought my first booster box in 15 years and immediately fell in love with the shop. Not just because it had access to cards, but because I felt like I was part of a community.