Special Edition: How Niche Sports Built The Culture That Mainstream Follows

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1:18Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. Accounts subject to credit approval. Restrictions and limitations apply. Cards are issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. This is Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to a special edition of the Bloomberg Business of Sports where we explore the big money issues in the world of sports. I'm Michael Barr. My colleague and Bloomberg Business of Sports reporter Vanessa Berdomo-Maglione is out in France for the Canleone International Festival of Creativity and moderated a panel live on stage to dive into how smaller niche sports are earning their way into the mainstream.

2:08She spoke with Miles Chambley-Watson, an Olympic fencer and founder of World Fencing League, Sky Brown, another Olympian and world champion skateboarder, Lee Davis, chief marketing officer at SailGP, and Jimmy Stone, vice president and global head of Creative Shop at Meta. Let's listen to that conversation live on stage at the CanLeon Festival. I want to start off with you guys talking about, you know, what everyone's definition of the word niche sports means, right? And when we were talking before, Leah, you had mentioned that you want to be able to take the negative connotation out of the word niche.

2:46Tell us about that.

2:48Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:Yeah. Listen, I think when you talk about a niche sport, it immediately starts with, it's only ever going to be a really small sport to a closed group and a closed audience. And I guess for me, I'm like, we've got to take that negativity out of it. We at SailGP are, we were founded five years ago to really kind of redefine the world of sailing. The sailing traditionally as a sport has been a fairly niche sport, you know, fairly elitist at times. And I think what we're trying to do is not change that sport, but actually just use the sport of sailing to create our own canvas, like do something completely new.

3:22Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:So we're not trying to grow a niche sport. What we're trying to do is just reestablish this sport of sailing as a modern day like sports, entertainment, music and culture. And I think looking at like today's fans, that's where it's got to start with. The sporting product has to be spot on, but it's got to offer so much more than that. So for me, it's trying to kind of break out of niche and say, actually, we're just creating something totally new and something totally different that's really relevant for today's fans and audience. Yeah, absolutely. And Miles, throughout your career, you've done a lot to introduce new audiences, like far beyond the traditional fencing community.

3:58Did you always feel that sort of responsibility to do that? Or why did you feel like that you needed wanted to do that? Yeah, so that's a great question. I think for me, obviously the sport of fencing has been, you know, one of those more elitist sports, kind of hard to get into. Everyone thinks it's still the parent trap. And I'm like, no, we actually stab people for a living. So for me, it was kind of just the exposure and showing people that it's a real combat sport. So once I started to win a lot, I started to realize that not only it's my duty, but it's more of like an honor to be able to create a new roadmap for kids, that now can have a league to be part of, but also just worry about fencing.

4:31And I think, like you said, it comes down to all the funding, but hopefully when I'm done competing, fencing will be a mainstream sport. I love that. So Sky, tell us more about how you do that with your sports, with skateboarding and surfing, because I know one of the things that you're passionate about is trying to get people to not misunderstand what the culture of skateboarding and surfing is. Tell us more about that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think a lot of people think about, you know, skateboarding and surfing, you know, has really just been a lifestyle for these many years. And maybe a lot of people think that skateboarding is a sport that a lot of the bad boys are doing.

5:11But, you know, I'm, yeah, now it's really growing and I'm growing with it. And it really is turning into, it's taken more seriously now. And, but yeah, I think I want to change the way of that and show that this can be something, this is beautiful. Skateboarding is beautiful. Serving is beautiful. Really trying to show that and change it to something that's really healthy. I mean, want to do it for as long as I can. So I need to take care of my body, stay healthy and yeah, change that and make it to something, you know, good. It is something special. I think you have a while to go, right? You're going to hit a third Olympics before turning 20 years old.

5:50I think you have a while to go. But I think with doing that, yeah, let's clap it up. Let's clap it up for that, okay? With doing that, though, and making sure that it is taken more seriously, but how do you do that without taking out the culture that is ingrained in it? I think by, you know, still being as gnarly as what, you know, the boys are being and the boys are doing. I think if I can push the boundary of the sport and show that I am being healthy and taking care of myself, but it's because of that that I can do this. And because I'm healthy, I can, you know, push the level and push these boundaries.

6:28I think that's where it comes together. Yeah. I think one of the things that's interesting from your perspective, Jimmy, is with niche sports, you know, a lot of the things on social media is about actually finding your identity and using, you know, uniqueness as your superpower. How do you do that at Meta? Well, first of all, this is one of the coolest panels that I've been sitting in, and I will probably say. Definitely most well-dressed. I mean, this is like, I'm a fan already on this. I think the issue with niche, the conversation about niche, is actually where the world is going. Everything is going into that sense.

7:03And the reason for that is from, I'm going to tell you, our team is more like the alchemist that understands, the scientist that understands how this interconnected ecosystem of algorithm distribution. And so there's three forces that are combining here. One is that proliferation of content is everywhere. It's increasing constantly. Second is the algorithm distribution and sophistication of the discovery engines that is connecting the right content to the right audience at the right time. And third is this sense of personalization of content at scale and the need of everybody. So that is creating an environment in which that uniqueness of each individual, it's going to find somebody else.

7:50So that's what I love about this panel is that it's not just the sport, it's the person behind the sports, the struggle, the vulnerability. It's really, really what the algorithm is actually pushing. So I'm very excited to hear from you and learn from you. And we're talking with two athletes who obviously do that really well. Miles, you obviously probably, I don't want to diss anyone in your sport, but you have a lot of followers for someone who just came from the sport of fencing, right? So how do you break out from that? Like, how did you find your voice, like Jimmy was saying, on social that made you unique to the sport of fencing, but also to more people than just that?

8:35Yeah, that's a good question. I think for me it was understanding, like you said, that being niche was actually like my gift. And I think growing up, you know, I used to play football, and I used to play, oh, I'm a football player, but then I realized that there's so many other people in that space already. So when I started to realize that, oh, I'm a professional fencer, who's black, covered in tattoos, that's actually my gift. And I think that's, once I started to understand that, and I'm sure you can attest to that as well, is being the first person is obviously an amazing thing to do, but to create a new category of athletes in fencing that are themselves now, that to me is an amazing thing.

9:07So once I started to understand that after my first Olympics, when I was 18, I was like, oh, wow, okay, I think now I know what my purpose is, and it was taking the sport to a new level by just being yourself. And I think that was one of the things I had to learn was that's actually my gift is being in a niche sport. And I'd rather be an anomaly rather than just another stat. Love that. Sky, did you have something to add to that? I feel like you were, do you resonate with all, with what Miles was saying? Oh, 100%. You know, I, you know, what I'm doing is a way of expressing myself, skateboarding and surfing.

9:42It's the best way I can express myself and add my, you know, style to it. And yeah, but yeah, to have, you know, not being, not doing a mainstream sport, but to have these many supporters and kind of gives me a way to tell a story and help lead the way of my sport. And yeah, something really good. Leah, one of the things that SailGP does really well is content creation. Obviously, you have a lot of different avenues for that, but also you work with, and a lot of your investors are celebrities that have big followings as well. Tell me more about that. And can you tell us a little bit about using their influence to enhance the sport of SailGP as well.

10:24Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:Yeah, I mean, who would have thought five years ago, Ryan Reynolds, Hugh Jackman, Kylian Mbappe, Anne Hathaway, Issa Rae, like the list goes on. All of these people, traditionally, you would have never associated with the sport of sailing. Or with each other. Exactly, yeah. Exactly, but I think that's the beauty, and it's a real privilege, actually, if we go back to the niche sport thing, of being able to rewrite the rules And, you know, we have created a whole new concept that all of these kind of very shrewd investors and, you know, people who are media machines in their own right, they've seen the opportunity of what this is.

11:02Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:They've seen the fact that we've created a sport for a modern day broadcast fan. And they've seen that they can be absolutely a driving force to be part of creating that. So, yeah, I mean, without a doubt, we had Ryan Reynolds on our boat a few weeks ago in Bermuda. in Bermuda. And like, there's no script once you put Ryan Reynolds on a flying boat at 100 kilometers an hour and just tell him to like strap in and enjoy the ride, which is the only briefing that he got. So, you know, his response and his reaction was 100 % genuine. And I think that's what you see at LGP, irrespective of who it is, you know, the content creators, the owners, the people who come across our sport, they see that it is high octane, fast paced, but also something new.

11:47Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:And I think in today's world, you know, you talk about the media fragmentation, the fact that it is new gives us that cut through as well to a large extent. Yeah. I think that's the really interesting thing in the differentiator between SailGP and maybe fencing and skateboarding is that it's so new and creating something new. How do you do that while educating and not being too boring about it though? Yeah. Interesting way. Yeah. Like it's difficult, right? But also I genuinely feel like it's such a privilege to rewrite the rules of one of the world's most traditional sports. You know, we were born out of America's Cup.

12:21Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:My CEO had won America's Cup five times and decided he wanted to rewrite the rules. So, you know, there's an element of how much, you know, do you pay to that legacy versus how much do you just be a pioneer and pave the way? And I think for us, it comes with a level of responsibility but also a huge amount of freedom to say, right, if we're to do this today, how do we do this in an interesting way that not only attracts the kind of investors you saw, but we have to maintain the best athletes in the world. And we've got to do it in a way that is going to break sailing out of its traditional audience.

12:55Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:So if you watch our sports or if you come to our events, A, you'll be sitting in a beach club that serves the best cocktails. B, you'll be hearing about the drivers turning the boats left and right. So the days of talking about skippers tacking and jibing and that language that was quite exclusive and maybe a little bit, you know, yeah, we've just tried to open the whole thing up. So our audience is a racing-minded sports fan who wants to come to a bucket list sporting event. Yeah. Well, when we're talking about rewriting the rules for a sport, we obviously have to talk about Miles, we have to talk about World Fencing League and what you're doing there.

13:32How did you rewrite the rules of tennis for that? I mean, sorry, fencing. Yeah, I was like, tennis? Yeah, I might go there next. I think for me, fencing is the oldest sport in the Olympiad. It's fencing, athletics, and wrestling. So I realized that it hasn't changed in hundreds of, probably thousands of years. So I figured if someone's watching a fencing match, the hardest thing is people to understand what's going on, right? People are stabbing each other, but there's two lights. And I was like, my mom's cheering for me. I'm like, it's not my point. So I need to figure out how we can make it so people can understand.

14:05So we flew to Japan, bought this new technology from Dentsu, which basically it's AI blade tracking. so they can track the fencing foil so it looks like kind of like a video game. If someone gets hit, it explodes in their chest. So now people can understand what's going on in the fencing, which was one of the first kind of things I wanted to attack. And we own the rights to this technology for the next four years. So if, you know, the Olympics want to use it, they're going to pay me. You got to cut your check. But this is one of the first things for me was how do we get a new audience in, in the sport of fencing?

14:35Because it's still a little bit uppity, it's kind of hard to get into. And then I figured, okay, I need to bring a whole new culture to the sport, which you're doing as well. And once I started to do that, the sport started to grow. And then we had 1.8 million people watching fencing at the debut, which is more than the whole Olympics. So we showed that we have a product now, and now the fun part starts. So yeah, it's really, really exciting. But we changed the whole rules. Instead of 15 points, it's two minutes. And then, yeah, we added timeouts. You can take off your helmet. You can scream. because, you know, I don't know for you, but if I take my mask off at the Olympics, I get a yellow card, which makes no sense to me.

15:13I've got, you know, a pretty good face in it, so let me show it off. And then now we can kind of just do whatever we want. So like you said, we can change the rules. We're going to add a new camera system in the mask. So for me, owning a league and being in the league, it's, you know, a double-sided sword, but it's really, really fun to create something for the future. Double-sided sword. Got it. We got your pun there, Miles. Touche. Touche. There's two sides? Yes, exactly. Oh, there's only one. Jimmy, I want to talk to you and get your opinion here. We're talking a lot about building a brand and creating the content and doing all that.

15:46But from a real standpoint, have you seen people do this in the wrong way? And what's a way people can learn from it, actually? Yes. So first of all, I think that already in this panel, you start to get the sense of the intricacies, the interesting things. It's not just the sport. What is culture? Really, culture is just a series of subcultures that builds the culture of today. And what we're seeing from an algorithm perspective and seeing how things are building is that people follow the people behind, the emotional resonance of the people behind the sports. That's how you start to build. Then that culture builds by people, builds subculture that creates the culture of today.

16:31So what I see with, I will say, creators, if you will, or people that are following the sport, you are the sport, but at the same time, you are you doing the sport. You are you suffering through. I saw one of your posts about you said something in the lines of, you know, I love the skateboard, but sometimes the concrete also kisses me and you were bleeding down. So that's the type of thing. And probably that was a good engagement, correct? That's because people are looking for the humanity behind. The algorithm, everybody looks at the algorithm and say, oh, the algorithm, this is how you have to do the algorithm.

17:14The algorithm, other than doing multiplicity of assets and do the assets in the correct format, it does not look at anything else other than engagement. engagement and what engages people is the humanity of behind the the content so i am seeing your content and you're doing an amazing job yeah that's oh that's really nice and obviously like as we want to know for for sky and for miles i mean it's got you have over a million followers right and obviously being able to do something on the world stage that was never done before i mean that that helps i would imagine but for you and like from what jimmy was saying how did you find your voice in that way and make sure that you're telling your story but it's and it's you're true to yourself but you're also showcasing the sport how do you do that for yourself and was it a struggle finding it for you or what did it come naturally for me i've the biggest thing for me was always to tell a story and to inspire that's been my goal since the beginning um you know i grew up in a small town there wasn't especially girls you know they were too scared to go outside and play with the boys and I'm like dude like they're having all the fun like this is not fair so I've always just like had a fire in my heart to say and tell a story and inspire especially girls and um yeah you know given the followers definitely feel it gives me a way to tell a good story and yeah everything I post I mean everything that I show on there I it means something yeah falling it's just not showing showing that you know I'm just a girl just like everyone else and that they can do it too and you know that it's not always everything you see on social media is the best sides of people's lives and you know I want to show that I am just human you know I'm Folly, I'm going to trip sometimes and I'm going to bleed.

19:12But this is, that's life and that, yeah, that's my story and I'm going to show it. And yeah, but yeah, having followers, definitely I feel like I have a responsibility to spread a positive message and represent who I am and my sport well. So, Miles, how do you walk that balance as well of showing the humanity side of you or the sport or anything that you're doing as well as the really cool stuff that you also get to do? I mean, let's give it up for Skye. She's literally 17 years old. When I was 17, I was a loose cannon. So, you're doing phenomenal. But, you know, like she's inspiring a whole new generation of women, not even just skateboarders.

19:56I think that's pretty amazing that someone 17 can do that. And I've known her since she was 13. It's crazy. So I'm proud of you. Thank you. Yeah. So much love up here on this stage. Sorry, what was it? My ADHD, what did you say? For you showing the humanity side of you and what you go through as well. Yeah, I think she said it perfectly. Even though I've won a lot and stuff, I'm literally the same person I was when I was 12 years old. Just 6 '5", covered in tattoos. So I think if you can still keep that human, normal side to you, I think that's the best recipe, right? I think just because I've got more things going on doesn't mean anything.

20:35I'm not better than anybody else. So I think when people meet me, they're like, oh, you're a nice guy. I'm like, yes, bro. What do you mean? Just like you. So I think I've always tried to give my time to kids and just help them out. And if I can be an inspiration for them, that's bigger than winning any medal for me. It's changing a whole new generation of kids. That's one of my biggest inspirations for sure. and for you I mean you're just talking about how the world fencingly you're able to take your mask off and stuff like that how important is that to actually be able to show your faces show the emotion that you guys go through on on the playing mat yeah I think it just shows people that it's a real combat sport right I think when you see fencing in real life you realize we have swords in our hand it's literally like who's the best person so it's a pretty cool sport but you only see it every four years or when watching the parent trap or princess bride so I was like okay we need to figure out a new way to make it so kids and parents can invest in themselves and say okay I've got an angle I can make money and I can do something then just do fencing just to get into a college or a school so that's been a really really nice blessing to learn and and like you said like fencing's a new sport but when you see it in real life you realize that it's a mainstream sport it was a means of survival so just like you know showing people what fencing really is at the core is something that I've always just tried my best to do.

21:50And the message, like she said, everything I post is truly me. I think that's how we get our own special fan base because I am a professional fencer, but I think I can relate to people from all walks of life as well. Yeah. Leah, with SailGP, I mean, you can see their faces, right? But they are kind of out there, especially when you're watching the broadcast from the far away or when you're watching from, if you're actually there. So how do you showcase the athletes, tell their stories, and make sure that people become fans of them as well? Kind of what Jimmy was saying.

22:24Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:Yeah, I mean, gone are the days where sailing is miles out from the shore. Like, we build race stadiums that are five meters from the foil of the boat that will be racing straight at you. So actually, the proximity, you can see their faces on the boat as they're racing by 100 kilometers an hour. So from that point of view, it is completely disrupting what the traditional view of sailing is. But yeah, I mean, without a doubt, I guess, you know, our view from a content point of view is that, A, we've got to create the best experience in the world that drives fame for people wanting to come and spend their time and part with their cash and bring their kids on the weekend.

23:04Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:So that on-site experience needs to be world-class, it needs to be innovative, and it needs to drive this like level of talkability that helps with that fame and fandom. But not everyone who's a fan of SailGP is going to be there on the ground. So more often than not, it's the audience. It's the 99 % of those who aren't actually in attendance that we're trying to drive as well. So from that point of view, it's the athletes, it's the teams, it's the stories that we have amongst all of our teams that are really the driving force. And it's how do we create interesting narratives that will get people in, but then keep them in.

23:40Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:And I think, you know, one of the many unique things about SailGP is that, you know, to touch on Sky's point, we've got men and women on the boat together. So we've got mixed gender teams. And yeah, I think that's a real disruptor. So you look at our Brazilian team. So we've got 13 teams. When the drivers line up, there's 12 men and there's one badass female driver who is driving the Brazilian team. And I think that level of disruption creates this level of interest in terms of, well actually female athletes can be pretty good at this as well and I think the element of how we've created kind of innovative elements within the within the league and gender just being one of those gives us that permission to kind of keep people entertained and engaged.

24:22Very different especially for a motorsport right because people say a lot of the time the criticism of motorsport is why can't they be on the same playing field men and women.

24:32Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:Yeah exactly and I think you know as you if you get down the rabbit hole of our sport you know all sport is about marginal gains and how can you get that half a you know millimeter or half a centimeter or half a second um and actually we've got the most data in our sport you know we've got 30 million data points that come off these boats every five seconds and all of that data is shared with all of the teams so unlike F1. It is a total level playing field. And actually through all of that data and the thousands and thousands of hours that the coaches and the trainers go to kind of mine that, there's absolutely elements where the female strategist or other positions on the boat are superior than men.

25:17Vanessa Perdomo-Maglione:So I think it's the collective of the team on the boat that makes it really interesting. And in our sport, you've got nowhere to hide because the data is there for everyone to see yeah jimmy from a creative perspective and the way people can approach this different leagues different athletes and all that what's your advice for them and how they can be more creative you know because obviously everyone's trying to do the same thing everyone's trying to grow their fans everyone's trying to grow their audience and i think a lot of the time people for the last few years people were thinking we'll just do a drive to survive sort of similar thing and it didn't really work out that way for everyone so what's something that people can do in a more creative light that you think will help them grow their audience?

25:58Drive to Survive, it was a way for, in a big scale, to go into that that you're talking about, the incredible amount of precision and data and the nerdiness of each of that content. So what I will say, if you don't have that kind of level of breakthrough, the really breakthrough is to start to break the sports in the drama of the data and creating different types of entry points. Remember, the algorithm operates by engagement, correct? And because it's an AI distribution system, it needs a lot of creative diversification. So a lot of different type of content, and the algorithm will find the content that people want to do.