Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend -August 25th, 2025

24:38What did you make of kind of that divergence in their two businesses? The coach brand has been so popular with Gen Z. It feels like everyone wants to buy a coach bag now, but the Kate Spade brand really pulling back. Just walk us through high level thoughts there

24:54Carol Massar:on what you made of those earnings. When you think of Tapestry, it's a portfolio company with two brands, like you said, Coach and also Kate Spade. The Coach brand up double digits. The Coach brand seeing average unit retail selling prices increase, capturing more new customers and going from strength to strength by adding items in their collections that allow them to have a consistent and sustainable business model. These Kate Spade brand is only 15 % of sales. More of their goods are sold in the United States, making them more impactful to tariffs. And that was definitely one of the headwinds.

25:30Carol Massar:And they have to set the transformation. The surprise was they lost money in the quarter. There's a reset going on. It's taking longer than expected. You're going to have this upcoming fiscal year where you're going to need to see stabilization markers of what the brand is, while they also try to lean into the coach playbook and utilize some of those learnings to update and improve Kate Spade. More to come, but 85 % of the business is coach, and that's growing. All right. In terms of earnings, just one last question, 30 seconds. What's the big one next week? It's going to be Walmart and Target.

26:04Carol Massar:Is Target going to talk about a successor? Is Walmart still seeing growth in food? And they seem to be the market share gainer at Walmart. All right. Going to leave it there. Dana, thank you so much. Dana Telsey, CEO and Chief Research Officer of Telsey Advisory Group, joining us in New York City. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. Well, we've been talking a lot about rare earth minerals as of late. And some of the U.S.

26:37Carol Massar:companies that are manufacturing, the White House, too, has been talking a lot about this. Yeah, we've talked recently to the CEOs of MP Materials and USA Rare Earths. Those are among the biggest U.S. rare earth mining companies in the U.S. But it's not just rare earths that matter to the U.S. And that brings us to one small cap miner with a roughly$500 million market cap. The company? United States Antimony. And though it's not a household name, it's in the crosshairs of U.S.-China tensions and the global race for key minerals. We spoke with Gary Evans, chairman and CEO of United States Antimony Corporation, who joined us alongside Bloomberg News economic statecraft reporter Joe Doe.

27:14And during our conversation, we noticed shares of the company were rallying. We're in the category of critical minerals. There's critical minerals and there's rare earths. And so the public really needs to understand there's a significant distinction. Critical minerals, as an antimony producer, we're number one on the DOD's critical mineral list. And the problem is there is no antimony today being mined in either the United States or Canada. It all has to come from international sources. We were all getting, every country in the world was getting most of their antimony from China. China controls 65 % of world antimony ore, the raw ore in the ground, and they control 85 % of the downstream processing, which is what we do.

27:57So fortunately, we're in a position of having a smelter in Montana and one in Mexico, which makes us the only two operating smelters for antimony in North America. And therefore, as you said earlier, we're getting a lot of attention from the U.S. government. They want us to expand our operation. I think I read a report in April. We only have like a 5 % supply in our stockpile. So we're trying to ramp up our business to meet this critical need. And as Joe said, there's no question that antimony is needed by the military. It's used predominantly, as he said, in bullets. But it's also used in laser-guided missile, night vision cameras, night vision binoculars, and what have you.

28:41So it's a very necessary element for the military. Hey, Joe Doe, come on back in here. We heard from Gary just now that the antimony mining is not done here in the U.S. or in Canada. Is it possible to do it here in the U.S.? Do we have the material to mine and it's just not done for environmental reasons? It's not done because we don't have the mineral rights to it or the companies don't have the mineral rights to it. Like, why has this been moved to China? I understand from a processing perspective why that's happened with rare earths. But with a critical mineral like antimony, why is that not happening here?

29:15Well, I mean, I think you go to deposits. How good is the deposit? And you can pull it out of the ground. And then who can process it? And this is a question that I have talked about now quite a bit with Gary over the last few months. And, you know, Gary, I think you're better positioned to talk about that to an investor class. I mean, you know, you talked to your investors yesterday on your earnings call. And they asked you about the potential of beginning mining in the United States anytime soon. And you effectively told them probably it's not going to happen anytime soon. So where where is kind of the upside here?

29:48We've been working on acquiring leases in both Montana and Alaska. We've acquired close to 30 ,000 acres of property in Alaska. And we've taken over the mountain area where our smelter is. It used to be an area that we mined some 20 years ago. So it's coming. Right now, we're held up by permitting. We filed permits in Alaska back in May. And so getting back to your question, why isn't this being done? The EPA and the federal government, whether it be the Forest Service, the BLM, Native Tribes, everybody tried to stop mining in the United States. And unfortunately, our laws allowed that. And that's why you see mining occurring all over the world except the U.S.

30:33It's coming back. There's no doubt this administration is very pro-mining, and we have the resources. There's no question that we can meet the demand for the United States with just our Alaska properties. We have no doubt about that, and that's going to happen soon. I would think in the next 30 days we'll be able to bring our first loads of antimony truck from Alaska to our facility in Thompson Falls, Montana. Gary, how would you describe the conversations now with members of the Trump administration with this government versus your conversations during the Biden administration? How are they different?

31:07Well, we started talking to the Department of Defense back last September. This was right when China banned all antimony sales to any country in the world. And, of course, our Department of Defense was getting all their antimony from China. So it raised a lot of red flags. And we've been negotiating various agreements and contracts with the Department of Defense and the DLA since that period of time. As we mentioned on the call yesterday, we're very close, we think, to announcing some things. It's not done yet. But there is definitely a mindset change addressing your question from the Biden administration to the Trump administration.

31:46For instance, we'll have to respond to a request from the DOD, and they say, can you have it to us by Friday? We give it to them Friday at 5 o 'clock, and by 8.30 Monday morning, we have a red line response. It's not very often you see the government working over the weekend. So there's no question this is a high ticket item with our existing administration, and there's a fire bin lit. Gary, despite the fact that you're getting a lot more attention from the Trump administration and they seem to be speeding things up, I'd still ask, what is the holdup? And I know this was a big question you got on the call yesterday with investors.

32:20They kind of seem to be saying, when are you going to get some sort of announcement from the government? What's going on? We're in a period where contractual changes are being made. There was an open comment period with respect to the DLA that ended actually yesterday afternoon. So I'm very confident we're near the finish line. But it has taken an inordinate amount of time. And there's been a lot of reasons that I can't really talk about today for that delay. But we had we have to make sure that whatever contract or whatever agreement we sign with the government is beneficial to our shareholders.

32:56And the first drafts were not. And so we had to make sure that we negotiated as best we could to maximize the value for our shareholders, but also give the federal government a fair trade. We, you know, we're we're we pay taxes. We know. And so it was it was that was very necessary.

33:12Carol Massar:Forgive me if I miss this, but is the agreement that you might be working out with the government akin to what we saw with MP Materials, which has a$400 million equity investment by the Department of Defense into the company? And we know that MP Materials is certainly working specifically in the rare earth materials area. So could it possibly be that the government, DOD, makes an equity investment in you guys as part of an agreement so that you can do what you need to in terms of ramping up either production or your facilities? So obviously that's on the table, I think, with us as well as a lot of other companies.

33:56I think we're in a little bit unique position in that we have a$450 million market cap. We have our own cash. We have our own capital. We need more of a big brother than a huge capital investment. Now, as we ramp up this year and do the things that we've told the public we plan on doing and the DOD, I think there's a very good chance in 2026 if we want to do another smelter, if we want to do another project. We also are involved in tungsten and cobalt, two other critical minerals. Then those type of opportunities exist. But what we're negotiating today and have been for the last eight months is something different.

34:35It's very positive for our company, but it's not a direct investment by the government. Gary, I want to kind of bring people into what's at stake here, or at least what is being said is at stake. As you mentioned, the Chinese officials put an export control on antimony, which came well after the germanium and gallium that so many people talked about a couple years ago. Have you guys experienced any of these effects of export controls on antimony from China? Yes, unfortunately, we have. We were acquiring material from a company out of Australia, and we were taking that material. their 55-ton container loads to our smelter in Madero, Mexico.

35:19And that particular, this third load that we acquired was transloaded over in China in April. And the Chinese Customs confiscated our container, took it off the ship, and held it for 90 days. Gave us no reason. All the paperwork was correct. It had been paid for. And we finally had to get the State Department and the White House involved. For some reason, finally, they released it. It showed back up in Australia, did not come to us. They sent it back to Australia, arrived there about three or four days ago. It's currently on a ship to Mexico now. So from now on, obviously, whoever we buy antimony from, we are putting our contracts.

36:00They cannot stop in China because China did this for whatever reason. We know this company used to sell antimony to China. Maybe they were mad. The fact that said U.S. antimony on it maybe was ticked them off. I don't know. But they definitely made a statement with what they did. We're speaking with Gary Evans, chairman and CEO of United States Antimony Corp. Also with us, U.S. economic statecraft reporter Joe Doe. Gary, a follow up on that. I mean, what is this? What does this really say? Like, should people actually be concerned? I mean, eventually your antimony is getting to you here and at your Mexico location.

36:37um like are we sounding too many alarm bells on this front i don't think so i really i doubt in our lifetimes we'll ever see antimony coming out of china again we know their largest mine was depleted last year ever and so uh ever i don't think we'll ever see antimony coming out of china there is truly a worldwide shortage of this product it is so difficult for us to find product. That's why we went and started mining it ourselves. There's just not any supply. Presidents love to talk about energy independence. It doesn't matter if they're Democrats or Republicans. Do we get to a point where they can talk about antimony independence and we can get 100 percent of what the U.S.

37:21needs from U.S. supplies? I have no doubt that we can meet all the needs of our government as well as our industrial customers from Canada, the United States and Mexico. We don't need to go anywhere else. When will we be able to do that? In the next three to five years. It's not going to happen overnight. You know, in the last few years, you would have said Canada, United States and Mexico. And I would have thought, OK, that that could work. These countries can all work together. But over the last few months, we've seen trade tensions flare, especially with our neighbors to the north and our neighbors to the south.

37:54How does that affect the way you look at the industry in your own business? No question that, you know, Mexico has a new president. She's very anti-mining. Fortunately, the mines that we have in Mexico are grandfathered. But, you know, there needs to be greater collaboration. Now, the DOD looks at Canada just like it was the United States. So any project we find up there, the DOD likes it and looks at it as a domiciled country. Great.

38:17Carol Massar:Is that as a separate country or because they want to take it over? Well, you know, the 51st state, of course, is what I'm talking about. So you're saying relations between the two nations are comfortable, and despite what we have in the headlines, you're saying that they are working and cooperating because they understand they kind of need each other. Yeah, well, Canada needs antimony just as bad as the United States needs antimony. And Canada is a very pro-mining country. So that's why we have a lot of activities, like I mentioned, in tungsten and cobalt in Canada. Gary, these conversations you have with defense officials, how dire are they indicating to you that the antimony shortage is for them?

39:02When you see the announcements we'll be making, you'll understand it's pretty dire. Can you give us some? We have the lowest amount of antimony supplies in the inventory for our government since World War II. You've got to remember, we're funding Israel, we're funding Ukraine, and we've dwindled our supplies. And at the same time, China cut us off. So it's a double-edged sword. People are waking up that, hey, we have a problem. So what does that mean for national defense? Like, what would your message be to viewers and listeners right now about how critical this mineral is? It's an extremely critical mineral.

39:38and there's people that have tried to replicate antimony with other synthetic antimony and it hasn't worked very well at all. In fact, it's three times expensive. I do think there'll be continued upward pressure on the price because we cannot meet, we can't come close to meet our customer's demands. We're changing that. We have a substantial expansion going on in Montana that'll be done by the end of the year, but it's just gonna take some time. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not like there's a huge pile of antimony sitting over here in some country wanting to go to market. It's all depleted.

40:11So we're having to find new areas to find the ore.

40:15Carol Massar:Gary, how long has the dwindling supply issue been going on for? And I'm just curious if you had conversations with the Biden administration as well. Well, because China was selling so much antimony around the world, nobody cared about it. China kept the price artificially low, less than$5 a pound. Today, the price is$25 to$27 a pound and probably going higher. I really believe we'll see$50 a pound in the next year. So, you know, the fact that we were so dependent upon China and had blindfolds on that all of a sudden they cut it off, had nothing to do with Trump coming in office. This happened last September.

40:56So it's been a year since they cut everybody else. It's not just the United States. They cut off every country in the world, the European Union, all other countries that were buying antimony. You can sell antimony to China, but you get nothing back in return other than cash. Gary, what's the biggest hurdle U.S. antimony faces right now in getting more antimony production up and out the door? If I had my permits right now in Alaska and in Montana, I'd have antimony in our smelters. I don't have those permits yet and you know we're doing everything we can to speed it along there's people in alaska that that don't want to see mining and the group called save our domes we've done pr work we we're doing everything we can to grease the skids to make sure that people understand that we're trying to clean up this is antimony left on the ground last 100 years from gold miners in alaska we're picking it up putting in super sacks and bringing it to montana we're cleaning up the place and people are fighting that.

41:58So it's an education process. So we've got a lot of PR we're doing and we're obviously working with senators, house members. We're working with the president. We're working with a lot of people. You'll see some other news about that next week. Gary, would the Defense Department be your only customer? We currently have 17 industrial customers. We have one particular customer that would take 100 % of our supply. So that gives you an idea. The industrial side is much greater than the Department of Defense. And that's, you know, one thing in these contracts we've been working on. They've made sure that we don't take away the business from the industrial side.

42:35And that's why we're ramping up, because the government needs a stockpile, which they currently don't have. And we're the only provider. There's nobody else. It's China, it's U.S. antimony and a smelter in Belgium. That's it for the whole world.

42:49Carol Massar:All right. We're going to have to leave it there. I got to say this is one of those interviews. I know Joe knows this stuff, but I certainly take a lot away from it. Gary, thank you so much. Gary Evans, Chairman and CEO of U.S. Antimony, joining us from our bureau in Dallas. And, of course, our in-house expert on all things when it comes to mining, Bloomberg News Economic Statecraft reporter Joe Doe. By the way, shares of U.S. Antimony, Tim, they're up about 117 % here today.

43:16Carol Massar:This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. ChatGPT, now with ChatGPT Work. I'm Carol Masser. DoorDash, the largest food delivery company in the U.S., is building its own delivery drones and has gained the necessary FAA approvals to operate them commercially, the latest in its effort to delegate more orders to robots as a way of cutting delivery times. Bloomberg's Natalie Lung reports the company says it has been conducting pilot programs with various restaurants, some of which have seen their order volume grow during the test period. The effort marks an expansion of DoorDash's in-house robotics efforts to reduce reliance on human couriers for some orders, as their wages constitute a key expense to the business.

43:59Carol Massar:Drones are also a way for DoorDash to cut delivery times on orders from more remote locations that some dashers may not want. That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute, brought to you by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChachiPT.com today by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. Amazon Pharmacy presents Painful Thoughts. Of course I see my coworker in line at the pharmacy. Can he tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream? I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling? He knows. He's going to call me Hemorrhoid Lloyd tomorrow.

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45:24The thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand, but by embedding AI across HR, IT, and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app.

46:05You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130.

46:13Carol Massar:Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including a check on the New York City luxury real estate market, who's buying and who's paying in cash. Plus, the most stunning and rare cars from around the world are taking center stage at this year's Pebble Beach Concorde d 'Elegance. We talk with the chairman, Sandra Button. First up this hour, green firms in the United States have found something of a lifeline in artificial intelligence after being bogged down by high interest rates, shrinking funding, and more recently, President Trump's sharp rollback of support.

46:44Our Bloomberg New Energy finance team recently pointed out that clean tech companies that have inked deals to support data centers have seen their stock soar this year, outperforming the S &P 500. That includes the stock price of fuel cell provider Bloom Energy, which, as we put our show to bed this week, nearly doubled so far this year and has a roughly$10 billion market cap.

47:06Carol Massar:And shares of Bloom Energy continue to rally big time again this week. K.R. Schreeder is founder, chairman and CEO of Bloom Energy. He joined Bloomberg's David Gura and me to discuss the impact of AI on its business and a lot more. This is an amazing time in human history where we have not seen the need for power growth anywhere close to what we are seeing today. Let me put it in perspective. The amount of power that the big hyperscalers are saying they need between now and 2030 is equal to all the power every single family home in the U.S. put together would need. There are about 85 million single-family homes, give or take.

47:50Carol Massar:All the power that they use is going to be needed in addition to the power we have today to just power the AI data service. That's how large this opportunity is. And very clearly, the old model of centralized power plants with transmission distribution simply cannot meet that demand in a timely fashion. That is the opportunity. And Bloom was purpose-built to provide on-site power for the digital revolution. And we are so happy to be in the right place at the right time. Well, help us understand how the company works. And you mentioned that on-site power, what that looks like. Of course, there's been so much conversation in recent months about perhaps the need to invest more in nuclear power or fortify the grid, bring more power plants online.

48:39How do you see your company as maybe not a substitution for that, but a complement to the kind of growth and development we're likely to see here in the power grid going forward?

48:49Carol Massar:I think we're going to need all forms of power in very large quantities going forward to meet our voracious energy needs. However, in the short term, if you take five to 10 years, natural gas to electricity is going to be the single largest contributor to this additionality. What Bloom does is takes natural gas without burning it, without combustion. We extract the chemical energy in it using a fuel cell and make electricity at the highest efficiency without air pollution, without noise in our generators because they're quiet, solid state and a very high reliability. For those reasons, if you are in a neighborhood that is going to have a data center, we are your best choice because we don't pollute your air, we don't use water, and we don't make any noise as we generate this reliable power.

49:50so you can have the economic advantage that a data center brings to the local community.

49:57Carol Massar:At the same time, you're not compromising on your health. So one thing I want to ask you, actually, our Will Wade does, who really covers this space. And we were talking about you coming on and he said, well, wait a minute, let's talk about these fuel cells for data centers. Can fuel cells really work for this? What evidence have you guys seen that it does really work? So, yeah, that's a great question. The issue is we are progressing so fast in our technology at AI speed that some people that have looked at fuel cells 10 years ago and have that notion of who we are don't understand where we are today as a company.

50:37Carol Massar:we already are powering more than half a gigawatt worth of data center because, you know, our total install capacity for data centers is more than half a gigawatt. So we're not a concept. We're not a PowerPoint. We're actually producing power for these data centers. And this year alone, we have increased our capacity to one gigawatt a year. And we announced in our earnings call that by end of next year, we can do two gigawatts a year. That's two nuclear power plants worth of power coming out of our factory next year. And you know how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant and actually commission it.

51:16Carol Massar:So we are no longer a concept. We are a mature technology that is affordable and can compete with other technologies that don't have as good attributes as we do. Sreedra, I wonder if you could talk a bit about your business model. I know that you've announced deals with other companies, most recently with Oracle, of course, a company that I know is building, investing a lot in its data center infrastructure. Could you, Karras, just give us a sense here of what those deals look like, what that deal with Oracle is like in particular? Yeah, David. So our customers, here's what happens. Once we sign a deal with the customer, they either buy the capital equipment from us and then they also sign up for a service contract.

52:05Carol Massar:It's a 100 % attached rate because we run those units for them and we maintain that and we offer them the promise guarantee of performance. Now, if they don't buy the equipment as CapEx, We create a special purpose vehicle using financing and we simply sell them power just like the utility would, except this is on site and highly reliable and clean. So either way, when we create a special purpose vehicle, that financial investor in that vehicle gives us the upfront money for our capital. And we also have an annuity revenue coming out of service. So we have two streams of revenue, if you want to think about it.

52:47Carol Massar:installed capital equipment that gets paid to us when we ship the equipment, a continuous service annuity over the tenure of the contract. That's how we make our money, irrespective of whether the customer actually buys the capital equipment or a third party buys the capital equipment and then charges the monthly rate from the customer. Hey, K.R. I'm curious. I'm looking at one of my favorite functions on the Bloomberg. It's the supply chain function. And I'm looking at your customers. Your biggest is, I think, American Electric Power Company. But I'm also looking at Alphabet, Microsoft, you know, yep, sound familiar.

53:26Carol Massar:These are some of the hyperscalers. Tell me how they are amping up their business because they're the ones who are doing the massive, massive AI spend. But it looks like they're a very small part of your business. I'm just curious about what's the conversations you're having with them. Are they ramping up to do more with you, that would be very telling. Yes. The answer to your question is very simple. In the past, these hyperscalers would spend all their capital equipment just on building the data centers, and they could simply pick up the phone and call the utility company, and they would provide the power.

54:01Carol Massar:No longer is that a reality because the utility does not have the amounts of power that these hyperscalers need. So now, electricity, power, which is what ultimately the data center needs to monetize the data center, is a supply chain that comes from the common good called the utility. So they have to own that supply chain or they have to procure from that supply chain. We are very much an integral part of that supply chain. And we are having conversations with all the hyperscalers today. and you have seen the announcement at Oracle. Expect to see similar things coming soon. Our American electric power contract was actually for AWS, which is another hyperscaler.

54:45I wonder if you could situate your company and this industry in the moment that we're in. So we're coming out of an administration that was doing a lot to support or encourage the adoption of alternative energy. That's why I say this is an administration that's not doing that. There's much less impulse to do that going forward here. What do you see here as the ideal role of government in encouraging the adoption of technologies like yours? In other words, if you'd like to see fuel cell technology take off, be more widely adopted, what is the role of government in making that happen, if any?

55:19Carol Massar:I think a simple role that they can play going forward is the U.S. government, between the various government functions, the military and the intelligence, is the largest procurer of electricity. To be able to purchase electricity from technologies that are made in America. We are a made in America technology. No other country in the world has the technology that we have. So they should embrace us and they should give us an opportunity to serve the U.S. government, the U.S. military and U.S. intelligence and make us a really strong country. One thing I was also curious about, and I'm looking at your market cap, it's almost about $9.6 billion.

56:03Carol Massar:And it is this excitement over AI. You know, there's all the money that's being spent, Kara, on the build out. And I get that. But I'm just curious. Then there's going to be the maintenance and we might not need as many workers. And, you know, we're all trying to get our head about around whether, you know, the boom, the bust part of maybe AI. After the build out, what is the business for you? Is it maintenance? Is it replacement values? I'm just curious. Oh, thank you for asking that question, Carol. The build out is just the tip of the iceberg. Why would these large hyperscalers spend close to a trillion dollars worth of CapEx just this year alone if all that they're going to do is that build out?

56:47Carol Massar:That's the training data centers. The inference data centers will be at least an order of magnitude larger than these training data centers, which are the foundation building blocks. every factory, every bank, every law firm, they're going to have inference data centers close to the edge. And these edge data centers are going to be located where you all live, where people are, where equipment is. And in those congested cities, getting the additional power needed, 10 to 20 megawatts in every edge data center, which is an inference data center, we are ideally suited not just for the large data centers, but for these edge data centers, because we are non-polluting, we are quiet, we are reliable, and we can provide it on-site very quickly.

57:35Carol Massar:So we are super excited about what we think is a really secular phenomenon that's happening here that's going to last for a very long time to come. This is not just a build and bust cycle at all, as far as we see. So when you say long time, are you saying decades? or I'm just curious. At least a couple decades. At least a couple decades. All right. Good to know. We'll stay in touch. Love to hear because you certainly have a front row seat in terms of this spend and what is going on. Certainly all the power that's needed. It's just kind of astounding. Dr. K.R. Sridhar, he is founder, chairman and chief executive officer of Bloom Energy.

58:13Carol Massar:The stock, David, up another 9 % in today's session and it's really been on a tear this year. Up about 84%. So interesting to talk about these companies is because we focus so much on the AI providers, those who are making these chatbots and all the developments there. But as we were just discussing, the apparatus that you need to make all of that work, so huge, so sprawling. And I'm just fascinated every time I kind of learn what goes into that, making all of this stuff run. Right, right. We just hear about that kind of the big hyperscalers and their spin, but there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done.

58:43You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five p.m. Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. Let's talk real estate because our Bloomberg News team reported that Manhattan home sales in the second quarter were stronger than they've been in almost two years. Boosted by cash buyers who've been undeterred by the economic uncertainty created by President Trump's trade war. We got some numbers here. A little more than 3 ,000 co-op and condo purchases closed during the quarter.

59:16That's a 17 % jump from a year earlier. That's according to Miller Samuel. and the brokerage Doug Elliman. The median price of those transactions,$1.2 million. That's up 1.6%.

59:28Carol Massar:I love this cash buyers. All right. So we're wondering what Louise Phillips Forbes is seeing. She's a real estate broker with Brown Harris Stevens. She's been in the industry for more than three decades. We love kind of picking her brain about what's going on. She's got close to$6 billion in sales during her tenure. She's back with us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. Hello, hello. Hi, good to see you guys. Good to see you. So where are we? Give us a snapshot of the market right now. You know, you just did that little snapshot of the quarter. I did a little snapshot from May and June for 2024 compared to 2025.

59:58Carol Massar:And there was a 72 % volume in price sales. So it went from$1.4 billion in sales to$2.4 billion. So almost a doubling. Almost. And then you also had a 25 % on the number of transactions. This is all 4 million and above. And on an average of those two months in 2024, they were 8.2 million. This year, they're 11 million. So, you know, chaos is opportunity for many. And cash on those deals is 90%. That's a lot. So it's kind of interesting. I mean, I talk to my bankers all the time. And they are busy. They are busy, but on the lower end and people are closing with cash and then they're pulling out, you know, cash back.

1:00:50Okay. We spoke to Peter Aukerbloom, Chief Revenue Officer at Sentient Jet. The day that FlexJet announced this, another private jet firm that owned by the same parent company announced this investment. And they basically said, we're seeing wealthy people from tech and crypto.

1:01:07Carol Massar:Yep. Younger people from tech and crypto want private jets. We're seeing our demographic go younger and we're seeing crypto. That doesn't surprise me. Is that happening to you? I think that the assets, first of all, let's just kind of bring it down for one second. And remember that the first time buyer today on an average is pushing 40 years old. That's different from that millennial run that we had in the construction boom. But even in New York, right? In New York, particularly in New York, to be honest. and I'm seeing more and more first-time buyers that are purchasing that are having family members, multi-generational family members, like grandmothers, like instead of inheriting this, I'm giving it to you or I'll co-purchase with you with the right to survive.

1:01:53So listen,

1:01:55Carol Massar:creativity is, we're in Mecca, so people are going to be creative to buy a piece of the rock. And I do think the, you know, new money and I've seen it, watch the tech commitment from the first announcement of Google in 2005 with like 48 employees morphed to 500 to 2 ,500. And you see that we are now becoming a hub for tech. And as you run up against the housing issues that are in California, we're attractive. You know, we can get insurance for our apartments. Do we stay attractive even if Zoran Mamdani wins the mayoral race next year? You mean our Robin Hood? I mean, the Robin Hood rhetoric? I mean, listen, I know this person cares about New Yorkers.

1:02:44Carol Massar:I believe that. I believe wholeheartedly that his intentions are stellar. But, you know, the ideology around real estate is not a conversation. It's action. It's infrastructure. It's collaboration, public-private. And, you know, we just crawled out of five years of COVID. We now have 64 million last year in tourism. You know, the crime is down. You have people back in the office. So freezing rent is doing nothing. And it's also suggesting that landlords are all on their yachts doing nothing and that they should be paying for the opportunity for somebody else to be able to pay rent. but there's so many landlords that are just skinning by because they, they were postponed from, from allowing people who weren't paying rent.

1:03:37Carol Massar:So Louise, you know, Tim and I talk about this a lot. And I feel like when we have real estate discussions and the idea of providing affordable homes in kind of major cities where a lot of people work so that you don't have individuals who are maybe not making that much money, having to travel an hour or two in order to work. So what's, what's, cause I've been talking about this, like my whole career, how, you know, this industry, how do we do this so that there is affordable homes in the places where people are working? I mean, when I came into the business, they had something called 421As. There were certificates that when you improve a land, there's an unimproved land.

1:04:17Carol Massar:And remember Bloomberg, thank you, 12 years of, you know, rezoning, you know, probably 40 % of our landmass, which has helped that situation. And when you build in the middle of, I don't know, I mean, they used to have these tax certificates that when developers would improve land, they would get a 421A tax abatement. It's a 10-year abatement on your taxes. and then for that certificate, they would then go and sell it for somebody to do affordable housing somewhere else. That has gone away. Was that affordable house though still in New York City? Yes. And by the way, people would say, well, we don't want to just be in the Bronx and in far parts of Brooklyn or Queens, but honestly - And nothing wrong with those parts, but you want with it.

1:05:09Carol Massar:And you want a mixture. And I just think that it has to be thoughtful and it has to be collaborative. And it can't be just somebody who isn't practically experiencing these things, making rules up like, you know, the city councilman that wants to have, that has good intentions around broker fees. Well, rentals as of June 11th are up 15 % because they've just pass it all off to the consumer. And so unintentional consequences when lawmakers don't want to collaborate with the industry individuals, as well as just regular people, if it's only politicians making these decisions and not working with their people.

1:05:52Carol Massar:I think there's always a concern though, that the people who are renting don't have the voice and don't have a seat at the table. You know what I mean? New York City is 68%. It's a city of renters. yeah yeah i want to get to know your clients a little bit and how they're different than they were let's say a year ago the people who are selling real estate with you right now why are they selling and where are they moving i mean a lot of it is life change you know um but i'm i have people that have been contemplating selling since 2020 that are now selling because there's a lack of inventory, what their apartments were not worth in 2023 are worth what they would like, and they'll accept it.

1:06:36Carol Massar:So look, a lot of people are downsizing and staying in the city. They are people that are leaving, but that's a life decision that is a cycle of life. I mean, I have a lot of people coming back into the city because their grandkids and their kids are here. So who are my sellers? My sellers range from like a one bedroom for$650 ,000 to, and that's somebody who bought, who now is leaving the city and loved owning her home. And she's ready for a new chapter in Colorado. And then you have a$16 million penthouse, which is from one of my developers that will be coming on the market in September on the Upper West Side.

1:07:23Carol Massar:And I just think there's just not enough inventory. Inventory is 21 % down. And that is the first time we've experienced that since COVID as well. It's amazing because sometimes it feels like there's a ton of building and stuff going on. Hey, before you go, we've got a minute and a half left. Tell us about what you're seeing in terms of international purchases. They're coming. They're coming. And it's doubled since 2024, particularly the Chinese market. I mean, when you are dealing with strife in your government and, you know, the housing market in Beijing is kind of upside down. I'm not familiar with that market particularly, but in all of the appointments that I've had in all the various condominiums, they are buying.

1:08:03Carol Massar:Some of them are buying with the anticipation of their children in the future to be going to school here. Where are they buying? All over, but new developments particularly. And that has always been in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Long Island City. We were talking earlier about there are some developers that are leaning into the Asian market by accepting deposits that are in the Chinese. The wand. Yeah. And and that is because they are they are being nimble. We we have to be nimble. But that's new. That's relatively new. There are two projects in particular. One is in Long Island City. And this was news for me, you know, a couple months ago.

1:08:50Russian buyers gone?

1:08:51Carol Massar:Yeah. No, no. Quiet, quiet. Coming back? Quietly trying to acquire or displace, you know, place assets. But not as big as what we experienced when you had the 88 million 15 Central Park West transaction. It's not like that anymore. Middle Eastern? Not quite. Middle Eastern buyers? Yep. And you have also, I think there, I have had three different Korean transactions this year. I think they're quite French. I mean, I think people are trying to come here. There's, you know, jargon around the Canadians not being happy. And if President Trump does away with a capital gains tax on house sales, what would that mean?

1:09:34Carol Massar:and just got 25 seconds. Just to remind everybody, when Bush was in the house in 2012 and he reduced the capital gains to fuel, our market went on fire in 12 and 13. Just for that, that was like the people that lived on Park Avenue and Fifth Avenue for four decades finally sold. I can only imagine. Louise Phillips Forbes, always fun to check in with you. Be well, be well. Bill Estate Broker Brown Harris Stevens joining us in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. This is Bloomberg.

1:10:10Carol Massar:This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Now with ChatGPT Work, I'm Carol Masser. DoorDash, the largest food delivery company in the U.S., is building its own delivery drones and has gained the necessary FAA approvals to operate them commercially, the latest in its effort to delegate more orders to robots as a way of cutting delivery times. Bloomberg's Natalie Lung reports the company says it has been conducting pilot programs with various restaurants, some of which have seen their order volume grow during the test period. The effort marks an expansion of DoorDash's in-house robotics efforts to reduce reliance on human couriers for some orders, as their wages constitute a key expense to the business.

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1:13:37Carol Massar:This weekend wraps up the finale of Monterey Car Week, where the California coast becomes the ultimate showroom for some of the world's most extraordinary automobiles and car enthusiasts. It ends with their annual event, the Pebble Beach Concorde d 'Elegance. Sandra Button knows about this event pretty much better than anyone else. She's the longtime chair of the Pebble Beach Concours. She previews what makes this year's show so special and gives a look into the collector car market. The collector car market is really celebrated on this one day a year at Pebble Beach when it's sort of like the Olympics of cars.

1:14:12Carol Massar:and it's a whole symphony of different kinds of cars from, you know, cars from the late 1880s all the way to Formula One cars that were, you know, just raced this last season. So we really all things cars and everything in between. And of course, you mentioned the beautiful cars from the 30s and the swoopy lines. Well, it's all going to be here. So how does a car get invited to the show? Because is it that the car gets invited, not necessarily the owners? It's all about the cars. And, you know, because we have about two, we have about 250 cars on the field. And if you own a car that's really important, and let's say it's a part of our celebration this year, we're celebrating 100 years of Chrysler.

1:14:55Carol Massar:We have Invictus, Moretti's, believe it or not, 100 years of the Rolls Royce Phantom, just that one mark of car. So if you own one of those cars and it's critical that we have it, that it's important to celebrate, that's one way to get invited. Hey, I want to ask a little bit more, too, about judging and how it all works. But I want to take a step back, Sandra, because this is something that has been around for a long time, started back in 1950. And I'm just curious why and how it came to be one of the most important and prestigious car shows really in the world. Something that I think is really cool about the Pebble Beach Concours is that we're actually very dynamically organic.

1:15:36Carol Massar:The event started in 1950. And to be honest, the Pebble Beach Concours was just a sideshow. The Pebble Beach road races that started in 1950, they were the star event. And after the road races finished, then it was kind of time to kick tires and take a look at cars. And in the very beginning at Pebble Beach, the cars were brand new. They were sports cars, you know, from the 50s. And that kind of changed in 1955 when Phil Hill won with the Pierce Arrow with an actual, you know, antique car and not a brand new car. But Pebble Beach is all about celebrating everything automotive, racing, the style, even fashion.

1:16:20Carol Massar:So I'm glad you got to see it once. It was amazing. I have to say the whole event, you're just you're just driving around the area and there's parades through the streets and it's just really, really beautiful. and really amazing. Sandra, I'm curious, how in general has the collector's market been right now? Because typically it's been pretty volatile. Well, I think you've mentioned it's been volatile. It's kind of like any art market. Of course, it has ups and downs. And I would say we're seeing some generational shift that a lot of the people that collected the cars from the 20s, 30s, and 40s are aging out of the hobby.

1:16:54Carol Massar:And we're getting newer collectors who are maybe looking for things that are more relative to their lifestyle or cars that they've seen on the road. So, yeah, there is that generational shift. There's also the challenge of getting these cars restored. Many of the people that have worked on the cars, they're aging out as well, and there aren't as many people joining the ranks of restorers. Hannah wrote a great article today about how a car gets ready for Pebble Beach. and you can see that, you know, there's not as many people joining that profession that are leaving. So it's, it's a great, it's a great job to look for right now.

1:17:31Carol Massar:Yeah, I agree with you. It's in our weekend edition for Bloomberg. And she says, you know, she writes, she says that jobs and she talks about one individual in particular are the most tedious in the classic car business, which by its very nature tends to attract a select few maniacally devoted artisans. But I see that we see that in general, like we talk about that. It's just not something we've seen certainly happening here in the United States. I love that you talked about, though, a younger generation. And it's another thing that we talk about, you know, who's going to be collecting in the future.

1:18:04Carol Massar:What does a younger generation of collectors, Cedra, mean for the winners of the concourse? Could a 90s car win? Like, How does that evolve and impact? You're right. Younger cars, you know, that aren't as old can be winning. And we have runners up to best of show. So, you know, we have 200 cars on the field. There's maybe 28 classes. So you have to win your class to be eligible for best of show. And of those 28 cars, it usually boils down to three or four that are all really in contention for best of show. So we bring up those runner up, the nominees for best of show. And in the last few years, we've had post-war cars.

1:18:46Carol Massar:We've had last year, we had a preservation car that hadn't been restored that actually became our winner. But you're right. The breadth of the years of those cars is widening. And I think it is because of the younger collectors that have so much passion. I mean, they really want perfection in their cars. They persevere through the restoration process, which can take years. And they really want, I think they're great stewards because they want the cars to be right for the future. So they dig into the history and they make sure that when they restore the car, that they do right by it, that they show the way that it was really built in the day.

1:19:23Carol Massar:We're talking with Sandra Button, chairman of the Pebble Beach Concorde d 'Elegance, joining us from Pebble Beach. I am curious, too, about the theme this year. My understanding is that you guys are marking 75 years of Formula One racing. So talk to us about this theme, how you're going to be celebrating it and why you chose to pick that theme. Well, I think 75 years is a pretty amazing, you know, it's about the same age as the Pebble Beach Concorde d 'Elegance. But if you can think about we're going to be able to see the entire history of Formula One unfold before us. And we're also having a class of Grand Prix race cars that predated Formula One.

1:20:02Carol Massar:So you're really going to be able to see the entire history of racing along the water at Pebble Beach. That's Sandra Button, chairman of the Pebble Beach Concours d 'Elegance. And Sandra came to us thanks to Bloomberg's Hannah Elliott, who's been right in the middle of all the action, Tim, at Pebble Beach. She's walking the fairway, taking in the really cool rare cars, the crowds and the excitement. Of course, we're talking about our car expert, Bloomberg News Auto columnist Hannah Elliott. So this is a big year. It's the 74th year of the Pebble Beach Concours d 'Elegance. This year, they are celebrating 75 years of Formula One.

1:20:37Carol Massar:So the big thing on Sunday, which is when the main car show is, is they're going to have 30 old vintage classic Formula One cars on the lawn, which I don't think we've seen a big group that significant of F1 cars ever. So that's really the emphasis. We had the opening tour of the Concours, which is where all of the cars that are going to be shown on Sunday must complete a drive down the peninsula, down to Big Sur, across the bridge, and then come back. And that is to prove that they are running, driving cars. These aren't just, you know, garage trailer queens. They can drive. I was fortunate enough to be able to drive in that as well.

1:21:18Carol Massar:I drove in a modern car. But that's actually the really big kickoff to what we can look forward to on Sunday. And then, of course, we've got auctions, which is a really big two selling similar, you know, vintage and classic and collectible cars. There's a lot going on. Tell us about the collector car market. You know, you were kind enough to link us up with Sandra Button, chairman of the Pebble Beach Concorde d 'Elegance. And we talked a lot about kind of the changing marketplace and maybe the interest or lack thereof, maybe among younger buyers, but it's evolving. Tell us about the marketplace right now.

1:21:50Carol Massar:It is evolving. Historically, this has been really a celebration of pre-war cars and cars from the 50s and 60s. And we are seeing that changing just because the people buying the cars are changing. It's coming into a new demographic. People who grew up with cars from the 80s and 90s and even the early 2000s, like Lamborghini Countachs, Ferrari F40s and F50s. We're talking about that kind of era of car becoming more popular in the auctions. And that has a trickle down effect everywhere. So for instance, back to the Concours on Sunday, we have never seen a non-pre-war car win. But as Sandra kind of alluded to, I think we're moving toward that point.

1:22:31Carol Massar:And the whole market is following that. Of course, you've got the Duesenbergs and the Packards and all of these really Rolls Royces, expensive, multi-million dollar pre-war cars. Those still exist. But there is a big upswell of these 90s and early 2000s, Mercedes, Lamborghinis, Ferraris that are really coming on strong. And I think that's where the market's going. I love that these are considered classic cars. Nothing. You know, these are like cars. Do you feel old? Yes, I do feel old. Thank you very much. I mean, these are cars that I was reading, you know, the scene on the cover of like Car and Driver and Road and Track when I was growing up.

1:23:10You know, my dad had descriptions to all of these things.

1:23:13Carol Massar:Completely. And these things tend to go in 30 year cycles. So that is sort of the general rule of thumb, whatever you grew up with the poster on your wall, 30 years later, maybe you can afford it. Wait, so the car that I actually grew up, the like Driftwood Estate station wagon, that was massive. That's a collector car. It was massive. It was like, it just went on forever and ever. We called it the Driftwood. Hey, before we let you go, what, who's going to work on these cars? You've got a great story out about the dwindling numbers of mechanics who work on classic cars. You have a classic car.

1:23:54Carol Massar:Yeah, I do. I've got an old Rolls Royce and the man who looks after it is in his 80s. And I'm not joking. And that gets to your question. The people who work on these old classic cars tend to be on the older side. You know, if you're talking to a teenager about spending hundreds of hours in a back room somewhere learning how to press metal, that doesn't necessarily sound as fun as some of the other job opportunities right now. So there is a big gap between the people who look after the cars and trying to get younger people involved in this trade. There are some colleges like McPherson College, which do have great restoration programs to teach younger people how to work on these cars, because at the end of the day, the love of the cars is going to stick around.

1:24:40Carol Massar:The cars might change. We might go from pre-war to a Countach or a Gallardo, but it's still the car that needs to be worked on. So there's a gap right now, but there is some slow growth toward trying to get younger people involved. It's like if anyone thinks they want to learn a trade, this would be a good one to go into. Our thanks to Hannah Elliott, Bloomberg News Auto columnist. Check out Hannah's podcast. She co-hosts it with Matt Miller. It's called Hot Pursuit. And in the episode, they go into full detail of the cars that she saw at Pebble Beach. You can find it at Bloomberg.com slash podcasts.

1:25:14Carol Massar:And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Tim Stenebeck. And I'm Carol Master. Have a good and safe weekend, everyone. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

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