Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 12th, 2025

22:21And he joined us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio. Zach, great to talk with you again. Especially appreciate you coming into the studio. Did the Fed get it right? I think they did. The analysis they did that showed the labor market still, of course, softening to some degree, but inflation pressures continuing to be present. And with the potential for some higher price pressures as we go into the early part of next year. I think they got it right. And I think the outlook for they've signaled probably one additional cut into 2026. The market, by the way, is making in two cuts for 2026.

22:54Somewhere in that range seems very likely and I think helpful for the economy at this point.

22:59Carol Massar:All right, Zach. So if you were sitting down with Jay Powell, what would you want to ask him right now? That's a good question. What is he going to do after he leaves his job? Do you think he will leave his job in the spring? I would think so. That's my, that's my son. But do you think then also Kevin Hassett is a given? Like we're seeing that the president's meeting with Kevin Warsh, like, so it feels like things are still fluid. Well, I'm not a party to those discussions. I have no clue, but I certainly think that, you know, as the, you know, as they, as they think about how that, how they're going to chart their course on interest rate policy.

23:33I think the, the, the path that they've chosen at this point, it appears to be the right one. very data reliant, appears to be, you know, we're landing the economy in a sweet spot. Okay. So, Carol, are you done with Fed stuff? Can I talk M &A here? Yes. Yes, I want to. You guys have been so inquisitive. I mean, there's been a lot of M &A in your space. You've been much more aggressive than others in your peer group. Why now in terms of the aggressive posture? Well, I wouldn't characterize our posture as aggressive. It's really, you know, for us -

24:03Carol Massar:Expansive, that's for sure. Well, certainly it's expansive. It's been a dynamic year for us, but primarily from an organic growth perspective. Huntington has been growing way faster than almost any other bank in the industry at this point from an organic perspective. And so when we think about these partnerships that we've announced, we have a pleasure to announce two partnerships this year. It's really all in service of sustainable, long-term organic growth. You call them partnerships, not acquisitions. We really do, and that's intentional. The partnerships we've created with Veritex Bank and then Cadence Bank really are, in fact, bringing these organizations together, making one plus one equals three.

24:38And for us, we'll be a powerhouse in Texas. We'll be present in a lot of terrific markets across the South. And really, together, we're going to be a much stronger organization. So they really are partnerships and ultimately all in service of long-term, sustainable, organic growth.

24:53Carol Massar:So, you know, I've got family in South Carolina. They've noticed some economic softness. And certainly the Veritex deal was about North Carolina and South Carolina. They've seen softness in real estate, which had been on fire. I'm just curious, your expansion plans there, your organic growth that you want to do there, I think you guys were looking to open more than 50 branches in those states. So is that impacting any of the growth or you're on target for that? We're on target for that. In fact, next year, we expect to open one branch every two weeks in the Carolina. So we've got some products for your family.

25:25And we'd love to take you on as a customer. But we're really excited about that. And in fact, the market reception we've had so far has been tremendous. We've opened several new branch locations just in the last few months. And each of them have beat their full year, first year deposit plan before they've even opened. To give you a sense, because the market reception has been so strong. So with the, look, I know, you know, I can ask the question. but in terms of what you have planned, any more acquisitions? You know, look, how are you thinking about it? The way we're thinking about it is if something comes up, KeyBank CEO said,

25:58Carol Massar:they expect more. They expect more acquisitions to happen. Do you? I think the industry has been consolidating for 20 years and will continue to consolidate. For us, if something comes up that's accretive to organic growth, that's a great fit for us, we'll consider it. But otherwise, it's all about organic growth for us. Geographically, what's an area of the country that's of interest to you where you don't have a presence. We love the markets that we're in right now. Our markets, we're going to be in 21 states covering more than 50 % of the population of the country and in markets collectively that are growing 30 % faster.

26:30But that means a lot of states you're not in. True. I think our view is we're not trying to be a national bank. You are not trying to be a national state. No, explicitly. We want to be deeply present in the states that we're in. So would that mean that if there were more expansion, it would be within the states that you're already in so you can become bigger in those places rather than expanding the geographic footprint of places you're not already? If something fit, I think that that's the right characterization. Okay. But I think, again, that's not our, our objective is not M &A per se. Our objective is organic growth.

26:59Carol Massar:The Goldman Financials Conference, and I think that's part of also why the KBW Bank Index really rallied in a big way, our performance about 2.5 % higher. They, many said, and you guys presented there too, that they're seeing a stable consumer despite worries of an economic slowdown. What are you guys seeing? We're seeing the same. I think we just were up on stage this morning ourselves. Stable consumer. Stable consumer. Pipelines continue to be strong from a lending perspective on both consumer and commercial. Profitability is very strong. Credit is very stable. It really looks like a solid economy from our perspective.

27:35If all you did was read our internal reports, it would belie what you're hearing in terms of the headlines, which is very encouraging as we go into the end of this year and into next year. Why do you think you're seeing that distinction? Like you're seeing something, the anecdotes and indeed some data are showing softness in places. Why are you seeing strength? Well, look, I think in total, you're seeing consumer spending continues to grow. Corporations, I think, are more confident today than they would have been at the middle of this year when there was more uncertainties in the environment. We've had a tax bill passed.

28:04We've had more tariffs certainty come into the environment. The government is now functioning again. And I think as companies are looking forward into 26, they're seeing this is another year of growth. The Fed just came out today saying that the outlook for economic growth next year was more than 2 % GDP. And so that looks like an environment where we should continue to be investing, continue to be expanding, continue to be expanding from a commercial and consumer perspective. There is, of course, a bit of a so-called K-shaped economy happening. And I think certain segments of the consumer environment have faced pressures, particularly from inflation and higher interest rates.

28:43Our bank does not have much exposure to that. And I think in many cases, the net of growth is continuing to be positive. Who is your typical consumer? You know, from us, we're focused on the mass affluent consumer base. So that's what you specifically target? We do. Okay, sorry, forgive me.

28:58Carol Massar:Go ahead. We target the mass affluent, and we've got a very strong base of consumers that are in that segment. And then, of course, we're also one of the largest small business banks and commercial banks in the country as well. What does mass affluent mean in your markets? Typically, we're looking at customers who have an income of more than$100 ,000 net worths that are high. Of course, we bank everyone. Our tagline is welcome to all, and we mean that. But for the most part, our business is concentrated in that mass affluent segment. So loan origination activity. Tell us about what you're kind of seeing since you last reported.

29:34Yeah. In fact, we just this morning showed a quarter to date loan growth of$2.8 billion sequentially from last quarter. We're growing at about 8 % to 9 % year on year right now, and actually exceeding our own forecast that we set just a month ago. In the Fed press conference today, I found what Jay Powell said about AI really fascinating, this idea of productivity. And it's going to get me to ask every single person I talk to about, not just how they're using AI, but productivity increases at your bank. What are you seeing? How are they using it? We're doing a lot in AI, actually. And it's increasing productivity.

30:08It sure is. To give you a sense, last year in the fourth quarter, we had two Gen AI projects going through our risk evaluation and implementation. Today we have 30. There's about a dozen per month that are coming into the pipeline. And software engineering is being made much more productive. We're seeing all manner of internal process improvement. And now customer-facing applications as well, things that make the loan approval process seamless and more effective, more personalized service. So is that going to increase earnings for you? Look, I think it will certainly create capacity for us to then invest more.

30:42You know, our modus operandi is to harvest and try to drive efficiencies in the baseline costs so that we can deploy those expenses into investments.

30:51Carol Massar:A few years ago, I used to actually drive up to make a deposit. I used to talk to a teller. I mean, I was a kid at the time, you know, and had my little book. But having said that, I don't talk to a teller for the most part anymore. So will AI, in your estimation, we are talking to CEOs. Our team, our tech team just did a big AI report, and they're talking to executives across industries. everybody seems to be in on AI. But in terms of Fed Chair Jay Powell saying, AI hasn't really impacted the labor market yet. Will it? It has to, right? Look, I think in the end, AI will touch almost every element of human life and commercial activity and ultimately will supplant many of the more rote processes that we use people to do, but it'll mean people could do other things.

31:37This will be a change in the labor force in terms of what people are doing. And there's things that people can uniquely do. Make judgments, be creative, interact with other people, lead organizations. I think, you know, what's incumbent upon all employees, and I think about this myself, is, you know, where can I shift my activities to where I uniquely add value?

31:59Carol Massar:People matter. You matter. You matter. Oh, thank you. Thank you. You matter. Zach Wasserman, thank you so much. Pleasure to be with you. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. So next with us, we want to get into what we have been talking about a lot this year, Matt, and that is the AI and data center build out. It is really one of the biggest stories of really this year, but also I feel like the last few years.

32:37Carol Massar:The question remains of where all the power needed for them will come from and who will pay for it. And on that, we had NextEra Energy. It's a clean energy company that focuses on wind, solar, and battery storage energy. They announced plans to expand into natural gas, including a power plant deal with Exxon and Google, and plans to buy the gas retailer Symmetry Energy Solutions. The company also announced a deal with Meta to supply it with both clean energy and evaluate a new gas-fired power plant out in the Midwest. And then don't forget, back in October, the company also made some headlines with plans to revive a nuclear power plant for Google's data centers.

33:12Carol Massar:This has been an all-in theme, if you will, this year. So let's get into it with two of our team members, Bloomberg News Energy Reporters, Will Wade and Josh Saul, both here in studio. So, guys, I mean, deals being made, we know that there's a lot going on. Josh, let me start with you. In terms of significant changes, is a lot of this just talk or are we starting to see action in terms of changes to the grid, adding capacity? What are we seeing? Thanks. First, I'd say Nextera, not just a clean energy company. It's a huge utility. And then they have a big development arm that historically has done a massive amount of clean energy.

33:48What's changing is that they're going, that development arm is going more and more into developing gas and then also turning back on a nuclear power plant in order to power these data centers. So what we saw was really investors looking at that change and saying, we're not sure that that change is happening fast enough and strong enough for what we expected. But they are like a best-in-class developer of especially renewable energy, right, as well, hence next era. Can they become a best-in-class gas developer? The investors we talked to think that they can. But similar to what we've seen with some of the independent power producers, there's just a really big hunger among investors to see these deals coming faster and faster.

34:35And investors want more details. They're fine to see a big new announcement saying that we plan to do things with Google, but they want to see signed contracts for deals with price points and timelines. And when we don't see those kind of details, we see big share drops.

34:51Carol Massar:Well, that's it. And, you know, Will, come on in on here, because I think, you know, some of what we were hearing, I was hearing for a while, too, was that when it comes to companies, especially kind of the Mag7, the big hyperscalers, they were signing up or announcing deals with a lot of different utility companies. But because they wanted to make sure wherever they got their power, they got power and that maybe not all of that would be carried out. In other words, they wouldn't get power from all of them. Yeah, we've seen just deal after deal after deal. All these tech companies, they need as much electricity as they can get it.

35:25And they need it yesterday. They can't bring it on fast enough. And we've seen a lot of people talking about building power plants, but we really need to see these plants actually getting built and getting connected to the grid and sending real electricity.

35:40Carol Massar:Why aren't they getting built? Is it because they're expensive? There's regulatory issues? There's where you build them issues? Like, what is it? There's a lot of regulatory issues. It used to be expensive, but tech companies have so much money to throw at the problem that I wouldn't say that's top of the list nowadays. But there's definitely connection problems. We need to build the wiring to deliver the power. There's just so much stuff that has to happen. You know, I can't remember who wrote it, but a couple of years ago, there was an insane Business Week story about how difficult it was to put up lines, right?

36:16from power developers to the end customer. And it took years and years of trying to get through this regulation. Is there any sign that this administration is going to be getting rid of that regulation as it has wanted to do? I've written stories like that. There's a power line that was going through Colorado that had been planned for 17 years to wind energy from Wyoming to all the people in Southern California was where that line was supposed to go, and it just kept getting hung up on different things. The Trump administration has made announcements and has executive orders about clearing out red tape and making all of this happen faster.

36:58But the actual grease, the actual what's needed to speed that up, I think takes even kind of deeper work in these regulatory agencies, and it remains to be seen whether any of that bluster actually ends up speeding things up. Big executive orders just canceling state regulations on this and taking over with federal control.

37:18Carol Massar:Well, that's the difference, right? Because the states have some say in all of this. They do. And the executive orders can't just wipe out existing laws as much as Trump thinks sometimes he has that power. He doesn't have all the power he thinks he has. So all of these things that the president has said, we're going to do this, it really bumps up against the realities of the regulatory process. It does seem like this administration is against certain forms of power generation. Wind, for example, it's no secret that Donald Trump hates wind power. He cares a lot about birds and he's worried about them.

37:55He's taken huge steps to make it much harder to develop wind power and solar power. And he really would love to see more gas and anything to do with fossil fuels. But it's a short-sighted policy. We really do need everything. And, you know, solar is the fastest thing we can build, but gas is pretty close to it. And that's probably what we're going to see a lot of real soon. But if we're going to build 15 gigawatts of power, new power production in the next, what, seven years, don't we need to use every possible source? We definitely do. But what we saw, I was looking, I was pouring through the NextEra release today and the, you see their renewable plans kind of going up through 2030.

38:38But then there's the phase out, you know, the Trump phase out of clean energy tax credits and then they sort of plateau.

38:43Carol Massar:Well, the other thing is nuclear. And we've talked a lot about nuclear. Like this is not, everybody's talking about it like it's going to just happen tomorrow. And it's, that's not the case. This is years in the making still. The line I've been using about nuclear for the past few months is that there's a lot happening in nuclear and there's nothing happening in nuclear. So lots of people are talking about it. There's smart people trying to do smart things. It just moves slower than anything else we write about. So nuclear, I guess, must be almost as beloved as coal and natural gas by this administration.

39:18is what we're seeing with NextEra. Is that kind of an admission that the clean energy, you know, renewable economics without these tax credits just don't really work out? NextEra makes the point a lot that the clean energy is the fastest way to hook up new data centers. But I think they also see that with kind of that with the headwind of the Trump tax credits going away, they need to in order to get the kind of earnings growth that investors expect, They have to expand beyond clean energy and do a lot more gas, which they've already done with their regulated utility, but they need to do with their unregulated development arm.

39:53And they need to get this data center game really dialed down.

39:57Carol Massar:But we've talked, right, guys? I mean, when it comes to wind, solar, like these alternative energy, they financially make sense for a lot of businesses, much more than they did initially, right? They make sense in terms of the investment, the cost or no. Wind and solar are the cheapest forms of new power to build. Yeah. Have been for a while. So why aren't we doing more? Also, I mean, try getting a turbine right now. I mean, it's not like... A gas turbine? No, a big wind propeller, right? Isn't the waiting list years? It's the gas turbines that we're seeing the biggest wait list for these days.

40:31And especially because the hostility of the Trump administration for the wind farms, I haven't heard as many complaints about wind turbines. So you can get the wind turbines, you can get the windmills, but you can't get the gas turbines.

40:43Carol Massar:So you can buy that wind turbine for your backyard, okay? But it's hard to connect. There's still a years-long wait to connect new power to the grid. Yeah, you run into the same sort of permitting and roadblocks that you do kind of with anything. Well, is the grid ready for all of this extra energy? I mean, Josh, I mean, that's the other thing that we've talked about, I feel like, for years. So that gets us into the thing that my team has been talking about the most recently, which is affordability. Just two steps to get there. upgrading the grid in order to add all these new data centers and also all this new clean energy just takes a lot of upgrades a lot of a lot of making the grid stronger better faster more transmission lines running around to connect in both data centers and also to connect in new new form new forms of power whether it's a gas plant or solar all those upgrades cost a lot of money those costs are spread out pretty broadly among all customers so we're seeing big rate increases big bill increases for customers.

41:33And people are angry. People are really mad. And we saw that in elections in Virginia and New Jersey. Yes. And we expect to see it in the midterms next year.

41:43Carol Massar:It's so funny. I was just with a bunch of family down in South Carolina. And that's what we talked about, power prices, and how they are incented to do things like air conditioning, do it, I guess, at night or something, and then turn it off when they get up so that the house stays cool, but they're not taxing the grid when everybody else is. Some of that's good. Some efficiency is good. But the level of anger and people talking about it the way they've historically talked about gasoline prices or more recently eggs and groceries, the fact that that's now sloshing over onto utilities is a rough thing for these companies to deal with.

42:19Carol Massar:Is it just likely to get worse, Will, because it's just the demand is increasingly there? Yeah, we definitely think power prices are going to continue to go up. We'll hear a lot more about it next year during the elections. And don't forget about the cost to upgrade the grid to protect it from climate change issues, wildfires and hurricanes. That's another cost that everyone is going to have to bear. One way an analyst put it to me is power bills are going up across the country. Different reasons in different places might be going up in California because of wildfire resilience, might be going up in Baltimore because of the proximity to Data Center Alley.

42:56But power bills are going up almost entirely across the country. Can I just ask on nuclear, Will, because this is your bag, right? I get that there won't be too many new projects coming online anytime soon. You were down at the opening of a new nuclear plant in Georgia. That was last year. I know, but I remember you talking about it. But what about recommissioned? It was a big deal. What about decommissioned plants being brought back online, like Three Mile, like Palisades? How many of those are we going to see that will increase the nuclear power capacity? It's a short list, and almost everyone on the list is happening now.

43:36Like the Next Arrow one, that's the Duane Arnold plants in Iowa. We heard about that just a little while ago. There are Three Mile Islands coming on in 2027. Palisades is coming on January, February. And after that, there's just not that many that are good candidates. So we're going to hear more about the ones I think people are exploring them. There's the VC summer plant in the Carolinas. So people are looking at doing that for everyone that they possibly can make an economic case for doing it. I mean, some of the old ones, they cut them up and took them away. I went toward one a few years ago in Vermont, the Vermont Yankee plant.

44:12And that plant was decommissioned when power prices were low, when we were long power. And I went up there. And by the time I went up there in, I think, 2023, we were starting to see some of the increase in power demand. And while I was there, I was a little like, you guys sure you want to cut this up? But, I mean, the process had started. It was decommissioned. They cut the thing apart. It was all taken on special trains to Texas where it's buried very deep in the Texas dirt because that's what you do with radioactive material. You can't fire that. Texas is hot.

44:40Carol Massar:I mean, you got to do something with this stuff. Can't fire that one back up. Hey, guys, thank you so much. Really enjoyed this. Really smart. Josh Saul, energy reporter at Bloomberg News here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. Will Wade, also energy reporter at Bloomberg News, also right here in studio. Support for the show comes from Public. Lately, it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades, and others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth.

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48:24Carol Massar:That's the company behind treating depression and PTSD using psilocybin. will get an update on their route to FDA approval. Plus tips on organizing a loved one's estate and the perfect timepiece gift. Yes, we're talking about watches for all types of people in your life. Price tag included, courtesy of our watch guru, Chris Rauser. I had lots of gift ideas off of that one. Hey, first up this hour, it's called the Solar Sunbather. It has three wheels. It looks like it belongs in outer space. It could possibly, though, hit the roads in 2026. No, it's not a SpaceX tricycle. We're talking about the futuristic-looking solar-powered vehicles behind Aptera Motors.

49:02This is a California-based solar mobility company. It was formed back in 2019. It's in a testing phase to release its cars on the roads in select states next year. For more on the company's plans, Carol and our car lover, and very serious driver too, Matt Miller caught up with the co-CEO of Aptera, Chris Anthony.

49:22Carol Massar:Hey, Chris, good to have you here with Matt and myself. I know he's going to take over in one minute because he's our car guy or one of our car guys. But tell us a little bit about where the company is. You're in your what sixth year. Tell us about where the car is, where you're going. You're on the road. You're testing. Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, Tara's currently in final validation and we're looking to press into full production in 2026. And it's just exciting to see the vehicle come together and see solar mobility finally on the road. You know, clearly the current zeitgeist is not what you would consider pro solar car.

49:59The administration seems not to be the biggest fan of alternative energy or renewable energy. On the other hand, they've given you a ton of what I must believe are very incentivizing tax rules in the current one big, beautiful bill, especially if you're going to manufacture in this country, which you are, right? Yeah, we're manufacturing in Carlsbad, California. But, you know, there is a global supply chain for for vehicles like this. And we hope that, you know, there's enough investment in the U.S. to bring more and more of that supply chain, you know, over in time. What are the critical pieces that you need?

50:41Like, what do you need to import and pay tariffs on? and what can you get from this country in order to build your car? You know, initially we partnered with LG Chem and a company called CT &S in Korea to make our battery packs. But we're bringing the cell manufacturer over to Tennessee and bringing the equipment over to manufacture our battery packs here in Carlsbad, California. So that's been assisted by a California Energy Commission grant. and we hope to have all that production here in the U.S., hopefully by the end of 2026, maybe 2027.

51:18Carol Massar:What's the most difficult aspect of what you're doing and trying to create a market essentially for it and then ramp up? What is the trickiest part right here? Yeah, most companies start with a minimum viable product and transportation. It's kind of about the styling of the vehicle and how many cup holders it has, how many passengers. but that's not really where we started. We started with how do we make the most efficient transportation possible? And then it became this solar-powered masterpiece that we have now. But we really didn't know what kind of market there was. We weren't able to study the market for something that didn't exist.

51:55So we kind of had to just build what we wanted to bring to the world and then hope that people really liked it. And luckily, within the first couple of weeks of announcing it. We had over 4 ,000 orders. Now we have almost 50 ,000 orders for the Aptera. And, you know, we think people are really excited about transportation built for efficiency's sake and something that can be solar powered, something that you never have to worry about putting gas in it, something you never have to worry about plugging it in. Do you have to worry about range? The standard version of the Aptera gets 400 miles of range, plus it gets the solar charging that it gets every day just by leaving it out in the sun.

52:32But we do offer larger range models of our Aptera up to a thousand miles of range. So that's easily enough for like my daily commute. The car looks really, I mean, it looks cool. It looks weird. It looks different. It's a three wheeler. I guess that would be so that you can classify it as a motorcycle. Correct me if I'm wrong. and you've got these outboard fenders on the front, two wheels, and then one wheel in the back. Tell us about the design. Yeah, you know, what most people don't realize is that 60 to 70 percent of your fuel at highway speeds just goes to pushing air out of the way if you're in a typical SUV or sedan.

53:12So we started, you know, with aerodynamics when it comes to making transportation more efficient. That's why it looks more like a fish than a box. and with something that looks so unique, you also want to eliminate any weight you can. So it's very lightweight and that made it three wheels. So there's less rolling resistance, less weight. And that three wheels has some unique advantages and they were classified as a motorcycle. But because it's three wheels, you don't have to have a motorcycle's license because you have something over your head. You don't have to wear a helmet. And in California, EVs are no longer allowed Radice admission to the HOV lane, the high occupancy vehicle lane.

53:51So we'll be the only EV that's able to drive in the HOV lane without any restrictions. So that's interesting. That's interesting that you can get it. You can sort of weave through different regulations with three wheeled vehicle. And that's why you've seen some of the coolest experimental vehicles from the Morgan three wheeler to this Aptera car. It's got room for two people inside, right? As well as, I guess, luggage or a pet or whatever. you want to bring along. What's it like when you're driving around? I mean, everybody must be rubbernecking.

54:25Carol Massar:How come you haven't driven one yet? Yeah, how come I haven't driven one yet, Chris? Well, we need to get you in one soon, Matt. It's a pleasure to drive. It's super, super quiet. It's kind of eerily quiet because a lot of the noise you hear in a typical SUV or sedan is wind noise buffeting off the vehicle at higher speeds. But because the Aptera cuts through the wind so nicely, you don't really get a lot of that. So it's a very different kind of driving experience. It's quick. It's 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, top speed 100 miles an hour. And, you know, it's definitely something that gets attention.

54:58If you are an introvert, maybe this is not the vehicle for you initially because any Starbucks that you pull up to, you're going to bring a crowd. But you can take it off the beaten path, right? I mean, I'm sure I've seen the website because I recall pictures of maybe the Aptera on a beach or in the woods. It comes with, or you can buy, I guess, camping gear or a kit that goes along with it so that you can get out there. And plus the fact that it's solar charging, you can charge with the sun up to 40 miles a day, right? It means that you can really take it off the grid. It's a little deceptive on the storage.

55:35There's actually 35 cubic feet of storage in the back. If you put the front seat forward and the passenger side, you have seven feet of space from the tail to the tip. So you can put surfboards back there, mountain bikes. You can actually leave the hatch up, and there's a camping kit where there's a tent that goes over the back of the vehicle. So you can camp two people comfortably. But most importantly, it's very cool to think that you can drive 200 miles to your favorite camping spot. You can camp for a week, and you can come back with more energy in your Eptere than you left with. Unless it rains or no.

56:08It does get less solar production, you know, if it's super cloudy or if it rains. You know, if it's cloudy, you can count on maybe half of the energy production. You know, if it's a whiteout snow, obviously you're not going to get much solar. But it's really a whole new vehicle category, a vehicle that creates its own fuel. There's never been anything like it where you purchase the vehicle and you're also purchasing a lifetime's worth of fuel with it.

56:32Carol Massar:Hey, we're talking with Chris Anthony, co-chief executive officer of Aptera Motors, joining us from Carlsbad, California. I mentioned that the company began in 2016, but it's really like an iteration of a company that goes back a while. I think goes back to actually 2006. It was a company, I think it liquidated, it came back as a second company, and now it's the third company. Is there anything, like if someone Googles, they might be like, God, this feels a little uncomfortable. Anything that connects you to kind of the history of this company from day one? Yeah, you know, I met Steve Fambro in 2005.

57:09He had a vision for how to make vehicles more efficient. He was a bit perplexed that there are some vehicles on the road that you would think should be efficient. You know, things that look aerodynamic, you know, a VW bug, why doesn't that get more than 50 miles per gallon? It really all comes down to the aerodynamic losses, the weight losses. So how would you make the most efficient vehicle possible? And that's what Steve and I set out to bring advanced engineering to is if you really tackle the problem from a first engineering principles perspective, what do you end up with? You end up with a vehicle that looks more like a fish.

57:43It's about 2 ,000 pounds. It has three wheels and it has an electric powertrain because that's the most efficient way to get energy to the wheels. you know by happenstance we created something that gets some some 350 miles per gallon equivalent and when you do that you can put a relatively small solar package on top but get really useful range we get about 40 miles a day of free power just from leaving the aptera out in the sun so if you're like the average american you only drive 30 miles a day 40 miles a day of solar charging is great you just never have to plug the vehicle in you just leave it outside and it takes care of all your average driving needs.

58:24Carol Massar:So Chris, is this something that you really see for local driving? I'm curious if it taps out at 65 miles an hour. Or is it, does it, how fast can it go? And can it be on highways or? What's your VMAX, dude? Thank you. Yeah, your, the suspension handling characteristics are great. You know, it's a very spirited drive, 0 to 60 in five seconds, but you're actually faster, you know, at the upper ends of the speed, you know, 30 to 60, you know, is faster and a top speed of 100 miles an hour. So definitely driving it on the highway. It's made to be a Southern California vehicle. You know, lots of sun out here.

59:01It's made to be more than, you know, just a commuter vehicle. You can, you know, take it and, you know, do the family shopping. You can, you know, pick up the kids from the school. You can, you know, do a lot with this vehicle in terms of usability. I also see that it can fit individuals of up to six foot eight, which is important for me. Because you're six. I'm six, four, but I want six. I need leg room, right? I don't I get claustrophobic in normal cars and planes. So I need my space. And by the way, zero to 16 in five seconds. When I was in college, that was what a 911 was doing. So that's respectable, really respectable.

59:40I mean, there's still a lot of cars that can't do that. Of course, you got the instant torque here. Getting up to 100 miles an hour, I rarely exceed that speed when I'm driving to and from work. I try to come close when there's nobody around. How many orders have you got for this? I mean, how many people do you think you're going to sell this car to when it goes into final production? Just got 20 seconds.

1:00:01Carol Massar:Just got about 20 seconds, yeah. We've got almost 50 ,000 orders, but we hope to deliver up to a million Aptera in the next 10 years. It took Tesla 13 years to deliver their millionth vehicles. We hope to do it in 10. Well, I can't wait for Matt to try it out. And report back. And then you can come back on with us, Chris. Chris Anthony, co-CEO of Aptera Motors, joining us. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.

1:00:36Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130.

1:00:39Carol Massar:Well, remember when we couldn't stop talking about psychedelics and their potential use for treating a range of related mental and physical health conditions. Well, this was during and just after the pandemic. But then in 2022, we saw prices collapse, money was pulling out, investors backing off, and trial results weren't what they needed to be. Well, it's now having a resurgence. Just this year, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said he could envision approval for psychedelic drugs as treatment for depression and trauma if clinical studies have been conducted. Plus, Bloomberg Intelligence Analysis estimates that the market could grow to$7 billion in sales by 2032.

1:01:20Analysts say that market potential quote is clear, but companies could still run into issues with regulators and in scaling up.

1:01:27Carol Massar:Yeah, still not a straight path forward. Hey, back with an update, though, on his company's path to FDA approval for some of the psychedelic treatments. We caught up with Kabir Nath. He's chief executive officer of the small cap$515 million market cap company Compass pathways. Kabir joined us alongside Alexis Christophorus, who was filling in for Tim. So we're excited about the fact that we're now in a position to potentially accelerate getting this medicine to patients who so urgently need it. Let me remind you that there are 3 million patients living with persistent depression in the US. Fewer than 5 % of them today are treated with a medicine that was actually specifically studied for or is approved for treatment-resistant depression.

1:02:09And this is depression that is chronic, it's refractory, often people are unable to work. It has dramatic direct healthcare costs in terms of costs of emergency room admissions, in psychiatric care, but it also has real social costs for these people. So what's changed is we've had a really excellent conversation with the FDA about their desire to see, subject to us continuing to produce really strong results in terms of efficacy and safety, their desire to see this moved more quickly. We've completed the enrollment in our second final stage study, which we did ahead of expectations, which is really down to the great...

1:02:47Carol Massar:So this is a phase three? This is a phase three. This is the second of our final stage studies. We've completed the enrollment of that. We expect to have the primary data from that in first quarter of next year. That will give us the second of our final stage studies. And with that, we are actually excited to be able to submit that to the agency and look to an accelerated approval. Wow, that sounds like a really big move. I'm curious, just remind us, and we were talking with our healthcare team, how you guys designed the trials or research program to avoid some of the pitfalls that we've seen with, I think about the ecstasy and the MDMA drug application that was for PTSD.

1:03:25Carol Massar:How did you guys avoid some of those pitfalls? So first, we had the opportunity to learn from some of the lessons. We've been in an excellent dialogue with the FDA now for some six or seven years since we first started this process. Yeah, as we know, developing new medicines takes a long time and a lot of commitment. We've done this in a very robust and rigorous way. We are collecting full side effect data. We're collecting all the issues, not just potential side effects such as headache and fatigue, which are transient, but also things like liking and so on to make sure that there is really no abuse potential for this.

1:04:03And we've been collecting that right from the get-go.

1:04:05Carol Massar:Is there any abuse potential for this? No, there is no history in psilocybin of people actually seeking it out or any abuse potential with psilocybin, which is an important point. I'm putting my investor hat on for a moment, and I need to ask you about intellectual property and how you handle something like that because psychedelic compounds don't sort of fit comfortably into that compound, if you will, because a lot of them are natural. They can't really be patented, if you will. So how do you deal with that? And to what extent is your medicine, you know, hold patents or have intellectual property?

1:04:35So our medicine, Comp360, is a fully synthetic formulation of psilocybin. Okay. We have polyphomorph patents that address that. And therefore, we have robust protection until 2038 with the potential for extension around that. Because again, we went for a fully synthetic, modern medicine.

1:04:53Carol Massar:Have you talked directly with the Health and Human Secretary Robert F. Kennedy? We are focused on an excellent relationship with the psychiatry division of the FDA. Okay. We've been working with the same folks for seven years. He has certainly made some commentary around this that has given, you know, hopes and expectations that this would move along more rapidly. We're happy that there are senior figures in the administration who believe like us in the potential for psychedelic therapy. But we're really focused on delivering the right efficacy and safety through our studies and working directly with the division that's going to approve us.

1:05:30So trial three, third phase next year, early next year, give us an idea of a timeline. I mean, when might we see something like this come to market? We will get the primary data, as I said, in first quarter of next year. We will need to submit some more data later in the year, but we are looking forward to being in a position to complete a submission to the FDA in the latter part of next year. And then we'll work with them as expeditiously as possible on a potential regulatory approval.

1:05:57Carol Massar:So, um, 2026, 2027, like what's, I know this stuff all takes long and I know we constantly am asking you, but I think because it's been so much out there for a while, a decade and then some, right? I think we're all trying to, certainly for an investing audience, understand when this actually hits, hits the market. We are preparing to be ready for a commercial launch from the end of 2026. Ah, he said it. Well, thank you. What is something like this cost? That's the question. So it's premature to discuss the pricing for this at the moment. First, we actually still need to see some of the longer term results from our studies.

1:06:34In particular, we need to see over the course of the first six months what the potential for a second dose is and really, therefore, how many potential sessions that a patient may need to have in a given year. That's a great question because you're talking sessions. So this is not a drug that someone would continue to take or a lifelong sort of drug, if you will. Absolutely. And it's a really important point there. What we have shown in our study so far is that a single session can produce a dramatic response that lasts for six weeks. today either it's a daily oral or there is a product has ketamine which you will need to take maybe 30 to 50 times a year what we are showing is truly transformative therefore for these patients

1:07:19Carol Massar:with this infrequent sessions we're talking with kabir nath he's chief executive officer of compass pathways ticker is cmps he's here in our bloomberg um studio bloomberg headquarters um kabir one of the things i think about then is if all goes as you anticipate and you've talked about the market for who this is for specifically. Then do you move on to other uses and other treatments, whether it's PTSD, whether it's drug addiction? I'm just curious how far you can go with this. Yes, thank you, Carol. We are designing, have in fact already designed and finalized the design of a study in PTSD. PTSD affects 13 million people in America.

1:08:02And while there's this view that it's prevalent among veterans and so on, it absolutely is. That's actually only around 15 % of that population. Only 15%. Wow. 15%. Actually, 60 % of people suffering with PTSD are women. And so this is a very large population. The only two drugs, medicines approved for PTSD were approved in the last century. So this is something new, something different. And so we are very excited about that. We have designed a study, and we will be kicking that off next year. I want to go back to the question of price. Sure. What about insurance and how does that play a part in all of this?

1:08:40From the get-go, Compass was set up in order to ensure broad and equitable access for patients and that means the ability to work with insurers, both commercial and government. With the data we've already shown, as I say, a single administration producing statistically significant reductions in depressive symptoms after six weeks, we've already started to demonstrate the value that this can bring to the healthcare system. Patients living with persistent depression frequently end up in the emergency room. They sometimes have inpatient psychiatric care. There are direct costs to healthcare systems, and we have already started to demonstrate the value.

1:09:17Carol Massar:You know, and forgive us, Kabir, we do keep going back to, I know you can't talk about price or your guys are just figuring that out, but we kicked off saying, according to our Bloomberg intelligence team, that this market, psychedelic drug development, could grow to$7 billion in sales by 2032. How much of that do you think is, or how much of that market size do you think you could get? And I'm just trying to, I'm curious. So we have the potential to be ahead of other companies in this market by two to three years. and we're excited about the opportunity to treat lots of patients. So for us, this is about the ability to make inroads into those 3 million patients that need a new treatment option.

1:09:59The only medicine that's actually approved and is being really promoted for this population today is treating maybe 70 ,000 to 100 ,000 patients over that population of 3 million.

1:10:11Carol Massar:Right. So what we're excited about is the ability to bring this new medicine to those patients. Is it a billion-dollar drug? Would you anticipate? We would hope that if we can successfully treat a large number of patients. Especially if you get and you expand out. Do you go for other uses? Yeah. Do you go alone? That's our intention. We've always said clearly that we believe that we can do this on our own in the U.S. market. And that's our intention. All right. What about side effects? I mean, folks are listening to this. A lot of folks are hoping that this is all going to work and come to market sooner rather than later.

1:10:46What are some of the side effects, though? So on the day of dosing, there's some headache, some nausea, and that passes by the second day at most because this is a day in a treatment center. We have a fully independent group of scientists and clinicians that reviews all our safety data on a regular basis. They have access to data from all arms of our studies, and they have seen no unexpected or concerning side effects that have caused them to alter the course of the study in any way.

1:11:14Carol Massar:And just remind everybody, and we just got about 40 seconds, Kabir, right? When it is given to a patient, there are folks around to really watch the process, make sure things go safely. You're not taking this in your bathroom by yourself. No, this is very much delivered in a safe environment, in a medical environment. With somebody in the room who is medically trained, who's there just to assure patient safety and comfort? Do you see the finish line? I absolutely do, and we're excited about that potential. I just think how long we've been reporting on it and talking about it. It's really fun to kind of be on this journey somewhat with you.

1:11:48I'm just wondering quickly, regulatory hurdles in 2026. Do you think that it is going to be a more friendly regulatory environment? With the psychiatry division, we have an excellent relationship. And that's been consistent over six, seven years. And we expect that to continue.

1:12:03Carol Massar:Yeah. Sounds like you've been talking to them for a long, long time. Kabir, thank you. Nice to have you in studio. Kabir Nath. He's chief executive officer of Compass Pathways. Joining us right here.

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1:15:44Carol Massar:But this so-called great wealth transfer has a confounding corollary. Our parents haven't just been accumulating money. They've also been accumulating stuff. So much stuff. So writes Bloomberg Pursuits editor-at-large, Chris Rauser. With us on tips on what to keep, sell, and donate, And just the concept in general, the history of it, why as Americans and when we started collecting so much stuff is Chris Rauser. Chris's story is the Pursuit's cover story of the December issue of Business Week magazine. It's available now online on the terminal and on newsstands. I kind of want to start with Pez dispensers because that's how you start the piece.

1:16:22But this was a great piece, Chris. It's not just for people who have elderly people in their lives with a lot of stuff. It's also if you have a lot of stuff in your life, you can take a lot away because there's a lot tied up in physical things. Memories, just feelings, holding on to things, history. Fear. Yeah. Losing stuff. It's really complicated. It's very complicated. So starting with Pez, which is a great place to start. Nick Malice is a comedy writer in L.A. who I encountered while reporting for this story. and his mom had these two great big lofts in Soho in New York. Sounds very glam, but they were filled with stuff.

1:17:05And it was a range of stuff that was like a little junkie. Like she would pick up, you know, shelves from the street and bring them into her apartment and then fill them with stuff. But a lot of the stuff was really good. Like she was an avid collector. She had like partied with Andy Warhol. She had some really good pop art. And Nick had to go through these two apartments that were jammed to the ceilings, and it took him years. And he found, throughout all of his exploration and dealing with it, 10 ,000 Pez dispensers. Oh, my God. You think that your parents have a lot of stuff. His mom had a ton of stuff.

1:17:41And it was very difficult to deal with. As I said, it took years. But throughout the process, and he found that it actually brought him closer to her, going through all of her stuff and taking the time and learning about what she cared about and all the cool stuff that she left to him as his inheritance. So I went into this story thinking, all right, this is a problem that we're all annoyed about, both our parents' generations, my generation's generations below. But also there can be some upsides and there can be some beauty to it. So let's go in with a positive attitude.

1:18:09Carol Massar:Well, I love what he said that in going through it, I'm sure he was incredibly overwhelmed at the beginning, right? But then understanding as he went through them, he got a better feeling about his mom and who she was. And a key thing that Nick did, which everyone should consider doing, is he got help. He got his friends to come in and help. He paid people to come in and sort the pest dispensers. He got someone from Antiques Roadshow to look at the really good stuff. There's different tiers of help. You can get an organizer to come in and do everything. You can get a junk company to come and get rid of everything.

1:18:40Or you can go through stuff if you really want to and sort of set it up into different categories, like valuable, not valuable, whatever. But a key thing is help.

1:18:48Carol Massar:I have to say, both my parents have passed away. And I remember my mom was quite the collector. And it was Hummels. It was Gompere. It was Delft. It was a lot of stuff. Hummels are a classic. Hummels are a classic. And I just remember going through stuff. And there was a point where we got so tired of going through stuff, like we were just putting stuff out on the curb. And in the process, we threw out a clock that was actually pretty valuable. But we just were just so overwhelmed. So how do we kind of go? So talk to us a little bit about the experts that are out there that help us with this process to figure out what's valuable, what do you keep, what do you pass on, what do you throw out?

1:19:21Yes. So there is a whole cottage industry that's set up to deal exactly with this. Some people call it generational decluttering, which is not only when people are passing stuff down to the next generation, but maybe they're just downsizing because they're retired, they don't need so much space, and they don't know what to do. So you can get an organizer who will really help you go through everything. They'll give you organizational tools, which we all need. They'll help you digitize photos. They have all these tools that you don't even think about that will shrink the stuff that's in your house.

1:19:50And they'll get the stuff out of your house. And these are people who are practiced at it. They're emotionally sensitive. I talked to some really cool people who are really thoughtful. And it's hard to get stuff out of the house. You know, people, you know, our parents, their parents were Depression era. So they wanted to hold on to stuff. They wanted to hold on to paper records.

1:20:09Carol Massar:Go into that, Chris. Because I think about, like, why the heck do I? I've actually talked about this with my therapist. Why do I have to hold on to so much stuff? Even after my parents are passed, it's like these aren't them anymore. But it's silly things like even seeing their handwriting. But what is it about that we got to this point? It's a lot of things. So like I said, our parents grew up with depression-era parents. If you're an aging millennial Gen X, you grew up in a house where people saved stuff against maybe future emergencies. Maybe your parents had nine flashlights in a drawer because you never know when you're going to need it.

1:20:42Anyone younger than us, younger than 35, grew up with Amazon. And they grew up with the internet. So everything is immediately available. Things are not as high quality as they were, like products, home products especially, as they used to be or as beautiful from the early 20th century. So they don't have that association of this is nice, we should keep it. Whereas our parents and even us, it's hard for me to get rid of books. I feel like books should have a future. Have you seen my desk?

1:21:10Carol Massar:I can't get rid of books. Oh, I've changed my thoughts completely on books. I know you have. You've got to get rid of books. Everything's on my Kindle. We live in New York City. There's not enough room for books. Do it all on your Kindle and be done with it. I mean, I know that's very - Close too. Close too. Can I just say, though, I thought it was interesting. I just want to say, like, the China collection and then the China cupboards. I remember my grandmother, like a massive. And then my mom had them. And it's like, I have little ones, but it's like getting away from that. That you had these things, then you displayed them.

1:21:40Yes. And that's a thing when the middle class in America was born. And starting in the mid-19th century, when we started having factories and middle managers and all these people going in through the beginning of the 20th century, that's when Tiffany started making silver. That's when people could afford. Before that, it was either extremely rich people or working class. And then there were, oh, mass-produced things could be actually beautiful. And we could own a lot of them. And we should display them to show where we have reached as a family. And then that created this like snowball of like, we should show our China.

1:22:13We should have fine silver that we don't use. That got us where we are today. I love the dive into the industrial revolution in this piece and really what brought the American middle class and our obsession or fascination with stuff. What I also love about the piece, Chris, is it required some self-reflection from you and also some anecdotes from you about this happening while you were essentially thinking about this piece. Talk to us about your dad's gun collection. So my dad's gun collection was the reason why I thought of this piece, actually. My dad has something like 70 guns. He had been collecting since he was a kid.

1:22:46So some of them are historical. Some of them had a lot of emotional resonance. And he has a room in his house that we call the Second Amendment room, which is full of guns. And my brother and I live in the city. In New York City, we don't want a lot of guns around. Well, guns are not—there are certain—it's very hard to legally have a gun in New York City. Yeah, and also a lot of them are hunting rifles, and I don't hunt a lot. And so my dad decided, he was like, you know what? I'm mostly just cleaning these. Like I don't really use a lot of them that much. And it's time for me to get rid of them so my kids don't have to like deal with it.

1:23:19So I was so proud of him. He photographed all of them. He made like a PDF. He put out an RFP to dealers to be like, who will give us the best offer on this? All throughout New England. He lives in Maine. And then a guy at the Kittery Trading Post in Southern Maine was like, this is my offer. And my dad said, that's great. And he asked my brother and my step-siblings which guns we wanted. And then he just sold all the rest of them to the guy at the Kittery Trading Coat. And I was like, this is amazing. I love this. And so I told my mom. And she was like, wow, that's awesome. What about all the wooden mallards?

1:23:52What's the market?

1:23:53Carol Massar:That your dad collected? Yeah, that my dad had all of those. What's the market for wooden mallards? So there is a market for wooden mallards. And there are markets for all these things. You think no one wants just silver. And you think no one wants China. And brown furniture. And that's sort of true. But the elite stuff, the best stuff, actually, there is still a market for it. So you can go through and find the people that want the wooden mallards. And I thought, okay, this is something. I've got to do a story. Oh, my God. I love it. I love it. I think it resonates for so many of us. Well, I'm just going to say, if you go through stuff, you might be able to pass it off as gifts this holiday season.

1:24:28Carol Massar:Or if not. Actually, in our family, we have sometimes done that, like pass down grandmother stuff. Does anyone in your family have a watch collection? I have a little bit of a watch course. Oh, okay. Well, that's a perfect segue then. So tell us about, you actually give us a gift guide for every specific person in your life when it comes to watches. Which is a great way to organize it because it's not like, okay, these are the best watches for under$300. These are the best watches for under$1 ,000. These are the best watches that are$100 ,000. This is the best watch for this person in your life.

1:24:56I love that. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. You know, normally I do the price point gift guides. this year, I was like, I'm going to actually go through specific situations that people have already come to me to ask for a gift or for a watch for themselves. My nephew recently asked, he wants a steel watch to take on job interviews because he's going to graduate college. So I recommended a Tissot, which is a very reasonably priced brand, really good Swiss watches. A lot of people ask me, they're like, I'm buying my first Sirius watch. And I send them to a multi-brand store where they can look at a lot of different watches.

1:25:28They always come back either with a Rolex or an IWC. So I recommend some IWCs. One of my friends got a new finance job.

1:25:36Carol Massar:I love this one. Everyone in my office wears a different watch every day. Of course. And I was like, I want to work in that office. Do you not have a watch to wear every day? Carol, I'm wearing two watches today. That's what I'm saying. I'm thinking you're on it. The nonprofit lawyer, can I just say for a nonprofit lawyer, I was curious about what you were going to come up with. I was not expecting a$4 ,000 lawyer. Still a lawyer. Still a lawyer. That's true. It's funny. We actually went through and Felix on my team asked ChatGPT for the same recommendations. And ChatGPT came up. I think it must have scraped the story, although we don't let people scrape our stuff.

1:26:13Because it came up with a lot of the same recommendations. And for the nonprofit lawyer one, it came up with the exact same brand, Nomos Glashuta, which is pretty obscure. I was like, ChatGPT, you've been listening. But my friend is an immigration lawyer in Chicago. an incredible, incredible person. And he was like, I want a grown-up watch to celebrate my milestones and my marriage, but I can't be a crazy rich person watch. And Nomos is amazing. I love this watch. Yeah, I love it so much.

1:26:41Carol Massar:It's really beautiful. But for all you guys out there, if you're looking to get something for the woman who wants an understated classic. Cartier. That tank watch. It's always the tank. It's always the tank watch. It really is. All right, do we have to go? We have to go. Chris Rauser, never enough time. Thank you so much. Happy holidays. So glad we could do this. Listen, how did you describe the Cartier tank? Oh, I said if you're buying a woman an expensive watch and you're not considering a Cartier, you're a lunatic. There we go. Amen. Amen. Chris Rauser, Bloomberg Pursuits Editor at Large. And that wraps up our weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio.

1:27:15Carol Massar:Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Tim Stenevec. And I'm Carol Master. Have a good and safe weekend. Maybe clean out some stuff. Just recommending. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

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