Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 19th, 2025

25:15It's not our project, but we support it because we know how critical it is to the downstate community and how reliant New York City and Long Island are on natural gas and how thin that reserve margin is. And their demand for energy is growing as well. So we support Nessie for those reasons. The other side of our business is about building transmission. It's about building the highway over which the power moves. So the sourcing as to where it's coming from isn't a national grid decision. We work with generators of all kinds. That was Sally Libreira, president of National Grid New York. And just this week after our interview with Sally, we got a new story from Noreen Malik, who covers energy here for Bloomberg News.

26:00She writes that calls are mounting for the largest U.S. grid operator to make electricity more affordable after power costs surge to a new high. Households and businesses will pay a record$16.4 billion to secure electricity starting in June of 2027. That's according to PJM Interconnection. It operates the 13-state grid. And let's remind everybody that this power grab and AI build-out is a global thing because there was a story about what's going on in the Netherlands. The Dutch national electricity grid is under enormous stress because of the immense amounts of power from all sources of energy being injected into the grid that their small power lines cannot handle.

26:39Both of what Tim said, this story, they really all highlight a major global issue because reliable electricity supports economic growth and vice versa. That's exactly what we talked about with Akshat Rathi, Bloomberg News senior climate reporter and host of Bloomberg Green's Zero podcast. He joined us earlier this week. For the last few decades, in the US and in Europe, those two regions, really, electricity demand was roughly flat or actually declining. It was mostly because of de-industrialization. That is now reversing. And it's not just because of AI. Of course, AI is a big contributor. But electric cars, heat pumps, just the general electrification of the industry is starting to speed up.

27:21And these regions have not been prepared for growth. I just want to jump in real quick because you said something that I haven't had a chance to, a lot of people have said I haven't had a chance to ask about it. If we're using EVs and we're using electric heat pumps, doesn't that mean we're taking away, we're still heating our homes and driving. We're just using different sources of energy to do that. Is one better than the other? Well, yes, we are definitely using a different form of energy. And one actually turns out to be way better because your electric car consumes about one unit of energy to move from electricity.

27:58It takes four units of gasoline to be able to move in the same distance. Same thing with heat pumps. Heat pumps take one unit of electricity to actually capture some of the heat outside, even in the cold weather, to heat your home. So you're getting 3x the bang on the buck that you're spending on electricity than you would if you just burned gas or oil in your heat pumps. So So electricity is the more efficient form of energy use, and the world wants more and more of it. And especially in North America and in Europe, the grids aren't ready to supply all that. So the Netherlands case that you pointed out, quite an extreme case, but actually it's not the only one.

28:39Pretty much in any G20 economy that we looked at, stress on the grid is growing. And Bloomberg Economics analysis, which we report in our story, shows that as that happens, economic growth slows down. I thought one of the lines also crucial in your reporting, Akshat, is that you say, crucially, the analysis done by Bloomberg Economics finds that increase in grid stress leads to a decline in capital outlay, which is government and business spending to acquire or maintain long-term assets. So the idea is as the stress is building, the capital needed to maybe build it out, expand the grid, improve the infrastructure.

29:19That is declining. To me, that just says, whoa, we are headed for some really mega stress points. Indeed. And the Bloomberg economics analysis also is kind of self-limiting because when they were trying to understand the stress, the rise in demand was one of the stress points that they had to account for. But it turns out when you have so much stress on the grid that either you're not able to connect businesses or price of electricity rises as a result of you not having enough supply, there is a demand signal in the market that is sent that we are not able to supply. And so demand comes down. And so the analysis itself is saying we cannot tell you just how much worse it could be.

30:01It can give you just a rough estimate. But basically, if you can't get enough electricity supply, you're not going to help economic growth. Yeah, it just sounds to me like governments who are already spending in many ways, as we've seen kind of a pushback on companies, countries working together, they're building out their own defense more, they're building out their own industry more. I mean, all of this costs a lot from a government perspective. But it sounds like governments are going to have to be much more involved. But that just also potentially raises debt in countries, which for many, like the United States, is already problematic.

30:34Yes. And there's two sides of this equation over here on spending. One is the generation of electricity. That actually is manageable. The stuff that governments have not been spending enough on is actually building out the infrastructure to supply that electricity. And just if you wanted that supply, say next year, you cannot really ramp up the build out of the grid that quickly. You could ramp up supply pretty quickly. You could burn more gas. You could deploy more solar panels, which can be put within months for your solar farm. But to get your grid to be actually robust and supply more and more electricity to more and more places, that takes a much longer time.

31:15So the results are going to be coming anytime soon. That was Oshkot Rathi, Bloomberg News senior climate reporter and host of Bloomberg Green's Zero podcast. Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week, it's been a tough stretch for cryptocurrency, especially in the later part of the year. Might, though, the recent Bitcoin fatigue be a setup for a rebound in 2026? The CEO of CryptoMiner, Mara, weighs in. That's next. This is Bloomberg.

31:56Bloomberg 1130. Bitcoin is headed for its fourth annual decline in its history, and the first one that didn't coincide with a major scandal or industry meltdown. The cryptocurrency is now down about 5 to 6 percent for the year. This, as we were putting this show to bed, down around 30 percent though from its October 6th all-time high, with volumes low and investors bailing on Bitcoin ETFs. The bear market means Bitcoin has decoupled from stocks, with the S &P 500 closing at a record earlier this month and up 16 % for the year. Well, Bitcoin has struggled to find footing. Bitcoin miner and accumulator Mara Holdings knows all too well about the drop.

32:35Its own stock is down more than 36 % so far this year and close to 28 % of that float is short. So the question, Bitcoin, is it set for a rebound next year? Those in the space certainly hope so. On that, we're joined by Fred Thiel, chairman and CEO of Mara. He joined us from Paris. The decline in the asset price this year, certainly, you know,$126 ,000. That was a major high earlier this year. That was a big moment for the cryptocurrency. But down close to 30 or more than 30 % from that. How much lower does Bitcoin go? I think Bitcoin at this level is finding support in the kind of$84 ,000 range, which is just about where the break-even point is on most ETF purchases, Bitcoin ETF purchases.

33:23And that seems to be a level of support where essentially people, large investors who are trying to defend their positions, if you would want to keep it above that level, which if it falls below that, you'd see more sales most probably out of the ETFs back into liquidity. Bitcoin, it's very much driven by global liquidity. You had expectations of more from the Fed and more clarity around market structure. But I think what you really have to look at is there was a huge run-up in the kind of August through September into October period. And a number of us felt the market was frothy in the beginning of Q3 and things were getting a little bit overheated.

34:14And now we've seen some of that come off. You've also seen a lot of money that rotated into AI now, rotating out of AI and starting to rotate into more Dow stocks. And so I think you're generally seeing a risk-off environment. Risk-off tends to drive people out of Bitcoin. But the liquidity that the federal government is going to inject in the marketplace now that quantitative tightening is over, we're starting to see easing again. We believe that will bode well. The dollar's down, which also bodes well for Bitcoin. And I think you're going to continue to see Bitcoin appreciate. But you've got to realize it's a very large asset class.

34:53It's a couple trillion dollars in size. And it takes a lot to move the price. And I think what we're seeing now is just some healthy retracement. Hey, if I may just jump in for a moment. I am wondering, Fred, you say that it's a risk-off environment. And yet I'm looking at an S &P 500 that's still near its all-time high. You know, we've seen quite a bounce back when it comes to the S &P 500, also a very big market. So I'm just curious, you know, how do you square that if we're seeing investors still willing to move into the equity markets, but not crypto, that disconnect? I think you have to, in regards to crypto, you have to look at the derivatives market, which is much bigger than the actual spot Bitcoin market.

35:43and you have to see the sheer amount of leverage and positions that have come off since the peak. You've gone from the$90 billion-ish range down to the$30 billion range of open positions. And so that's a huge amount of leverage that comes off, which essentially sucks wind out of the marketplace. And people have been moving their money out of Bitcoin and into other things. I think you've also seen, look at the AI stocks. Most of the second tier AI stocks have all seen a pretty large come down since the peak. Even stocks such as Oracle, look at CoreWeave, look at these stocks and how they've performed.

36:27And I think what you're seeing is a rotation out of some of those and into other stocks. And Bitcoin is associated with technology, it's associated with the risk on assets, and it's very associated with liquidity. So having said that, and you talked about the run-up that we saw earlier in terms of crypto, that where it got to maybe like frothy levels, we're now at what, 87 ,302 and change. So what do you think should be the level of crypto that makes more sense? I think you have to look at the long-term trend. But more importantly, go back a little over a year ago, go 14, 15 months ago, no U.S.

37:13money center bank would deal with crypto related companies, nor would they take crypto deposits, nor would they let you trade crypto, nor would they let you wire money to crypto exchanges almost. And today you have every bank, including JP Morgan, now moving ahead and doing all sorts of things with crypto. So you're seeing tokenization of assets. DTCC has now gotten a no action letter from the SEC around tokenizing assets. You're seeing all sorts of activities around the traditional finance environment where they're embracing crypto. And I believe that part of the effect of that is you're now going to see all sorts of things wrapped around crypto, which will make the space much more relevant.

37:58But it takes time for those products to take effect, get launched. And I think, again, Bitcoin has had a great run over the past 15 years. It's been one of the best performing assets on record. And I think that we're going to continue to see great performance out of Bitcoin over the coming years. So, Fred, you're a Bitcoin miner. You're also a Bitcoin accumulator. We've spoken to Eric Trump of American Bitcoin. And I'm curious, he's also a miner, also an accumulator. What makes your company different than American Bitcoin? Well, any company that mines Bitcoin is performing the exact same service for the Bitcoin network, which is essentially assembling transactions into blocks, competing to win the right to essentially add that block to the blockchain.

38:45What differentiates Mara from American Bitcoin, A, we own about 70 % of our hosting operations. uh we're fully vertically integrated we own power generation we generate energy off of wind farms off of flare gas and oil fields we operate on four continents we also are fully vertically integrated from a technology perspective we operate our own pool we co-founded um the only us asic manufacturer um for bitcoin mining asics the rest of the market is all dominated by chinese companies. And we have been very proactive in helping drive a lot of the growth of crypto around partnerships with energy companies.

39:31And I think we're still considerably larger than American Bitcoin, not just in our mining operations, but also in the amount of Bitcoin that we hold on our balance sheet. On the identity part of this, trying to understand what the company looks like. You guys issued a statement this week saying you're not a digital asset treasury firm. So you should not be excluded from MSCI, whereas the company said it has been adopting a Bitcoin treasury strategy by holding its mined coins. What is the difference between being a treasury company versus a company that adopts the treasury strategy? Help us with the nuance there.

40:06Sure. So a Bitcoin treasury company, for example, like Strategy or MicroStrategy, as it's formerly known as, has acquired all of its Bitcoin by purchasing it. Mara has mined the majority of its Bitcoin. We've also purchased Bitcoin in the market, but most of our Bitcoin is the product of our mining operations. We have chosen to hold our liquid assets in Bitcoin because we believe, again, better to hold our cash in the best performing asset class over the past 15 years than to hold it in fiat, which is continually losing its value, or just to hold it in treasuries, which will only pay a dividend of low single-digit percentage points.

40:49So Bitcoin has been an excellent place for us to hold our cash and will continue to be so, we believe, over the long run. But we generate Bitcoin by mining Bitcoin. We're not out in the market buying Bitcoin on a regular basis like MicroStrategy. We have from time to time gone into the market and bought it when we think it's very opportune. Last year, there was an opportunity to buy Bitcoin when it was in the$60 ,000 range. And we bought Bitcoin because we had a feeling it was a belief rather that it was going to go up, which it did. And there are times where we're opportunistic like that. But we sell Bitcoin that we produce to fund our operating expenses.

41:29So, you know, we are not a company that holds our Bitcoin, every single Bitcoin that we have. We actually sell Bitcoin from production to fund our business. So we're an operating business. Bitcoin mining is our primary business. And Bitcoin just happens to be how we hold our funds. Fred, one thing I'm just curious, though, going back to what we've seen in terms of the fatigue in the price and Bitcoin coming down, you know, what's interesting is, and I'm just looking at some of our reporting and commentary, you know, you've got a White House that's very much favored or favoring the digital currency world.

42:03You have the president declaring crypto a national priority. U.S. Congress has passed a landmark stablecoin legislation, and Bitcoin exchange-traded funds were raking in billions of dollars. We've seen acquisitions. We've seen so much movement. And again, I'm going back to the decline that we've seen in crypto. It's a pretty favorable environment. So, I mean, is all of the good expectations in terms of news already priced in, and it can't get much better? No, I think like anything, any asset will revert to mean. And Bitcoin has simply reverted to mean. It has most probably overcorrected. But you had in the past six months a huge amount of accumulation by the plethora of digital asset treasury companies that were formed.

42:55You go back not too long ago, it was basically MicroStrategy was the only real one. You had MetaPlanet to a lesser extent. Seminar Scientific was a smaller one. And we were a large holder of Bitcoin. That was kind of it. And then all of a sudden, you had all sorts of companies come out of the woodwork. What did they do? They raised cash. They went and bought a bunch of Bitcoin, which drives the price up. Right. Price comes up. People start putting money into ETFs. You start getting bigger derivative positions. Okay. And it's a flywheel effect. And if you just draw a trend line over the past number of years, you'll see Bitcoin has just reverted to me.

43:29Got to run. Fred, thank you so much. Fred Thiel, Chairman and CEO of Mara.

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47:45The CEO of the privately held ski boot company, Surefoot, on why the right fit can change everything on the ski slopes and beyond. Then from carving turns to commanding crowds, the CEO of Feld Entertainment, the company behind some of the biggest live spectacles on keeping audiences coming back generation after generation. First up this hour, the cost of celebrating Christmas. It's climbing yet again, at least according to data from the PNC Christmas Price Index, CPI. See what they do there? Cute. Now with its 42nd year, PNC has been keeping track of just how much the 12 days of Christmas costs.

48:20And spoiler alert, it's gone up again. This year, the report highlights labor market pressures, not tariffs, to blame for some of the rising cost. We mean you, Lord's a leaping. And oh, one of the 12 days? Outshone all others in a price hike. Breaking it all down for us, Amanda Gotti, Chief Investment Officer at PNC Asset Management Group. It's almost always more expensive. Thanks, guys, so much for having me. On a year-over-year basis, the Christmas price index is up 4.5%. So we are handily outpacing the BLS CPI version. So it's going to cost true love this holiday season. All right. So wait, what's costing us more?

49:00Well, sadly, I mean, we talk about this every year, but sadly, my all-time favorite gift is actually the biggest mover by far. So it's five golden rings. Do I have to elaborate on that? Yeah. Gold went up. Gold was an outperforming asset. Nobody asked for five crypto rings, five Bitcoin rings. No, they didn't. Although they would have done OK for at least part of the year. But the five golden rings weren't up as much as the price of gold itself, still up a very hot 32 and a half percent. It's really very much a reflection of what we think is a little bit of a margin squeeze. Right. Late innings of the cycle, a still positive growth story for the economy, but margin pressures are building.

49:42And so we are seeing that in the price of the golden rings being passed through or maybe not being quite fully passed through this holiday season. Okay. So those are the golden rings. What else was, what's the second most expensive, not most expensive, but the thing that went up the second most? The pear tree. Oh, really? Why is that? Which, which nobody wants a partridge. Okay. So the partridge was flat on a year over your basis. That's not a gift that keeps on giving. The pear tree is, though. It's an awful lot of work. But the pear tree is what we refer to as a proxy for housing costs. And so when we think about housing and the housing market in this country, clearly running pretty hot on a relative basis year over year affordability getting kind of challenged.

50:29Right. Even though mortgage rates have come down some. It hasn't made a huge difference in terms of supply and demand and inventory levels. We're still very short housing stock. So Pear Tree also running hot on a year over year basis. Also performers, right? I mean, the cost of labor, I guess you could kind of say. Well, it's sometimes it is the cost of labor. Sometimes it's contractual escalators. This year, the big one is the 10 Lords of Leaping. And I've been having fun all year talking about this one because Oasis has been the hottest concert ticket in town. You could refer to them as the Lords of Rock, perhaps.

51:08But so this is the real world concert tickets, experiences, demand driving up those 10 Lords. Yeah. How do you measure that just on a base? Like, are you just looking at Oasis or are you looking at everybody? No, I'm teasing. I just, it's fun to try and tie. I mean, And Talia went to an Oasis concert at two Oasis concerts. I know one of them. Where did you go? Talia, our producers. Yeah, Scotland in L.A. She traveled all the way for Oasis from New York. Like so there's some serious fans out there. Yeah, absolutely. As am I. But I don't have 10 Lords laying around here. So we do our best to try and talk to dance companies and theater companies on a year over year basis.

51:51There's a method to this scientific madness. And so I'm just trying to make it a little bit relatable. The lords of all the performers were the biggest standout on a year-over-year basis. So naturally, it must be the Oasis effect. If only I had 10 lords a-leaping just hanging around somewhere. Just kidding. Just kidding. Hey, what stayed the same or did anything go down? Oh, almost nothing goes down. Let's get real here. I would love to say, aside from the pandemic, when we had to shut the lights off on a lot of the performers and experiences just as a function of what was happening in the real world economy, a number of gifts did stay flat on a year over year basis.

52:32So two turtle doves, three French hens, four calling birds, the seven swans, the eight maids. So there was a decent amount of stability on a year over year basis, but some pretty significant moves in the top three or four. on a year-over-year basis. This is fun, and we do this because it's fun, but it also does give us an opportunity to talk about the real-world inflation that we're seeing and also real-world asset price movements, Amanda. Overall, the index, it moved more than headline figures when it comes to CPI. It sure did, and that's not always the case, but you have to think about the gifts in the Christmas price index as a very specialty gift basket of goods and services.

53:16So it's not really a reflection of the broad economy and the U.S. consumer in total. It tends to lean higher end in terms of the spectrum there. But I think it is a good indicator for what some of the pricing trends may look like this holiday season. So the consumer is definitely hanging in there on a relative basis. We definitely see consumers continuing to spend and retail sales data continues to look solid. Holiday shopping looks good, but it's definitely going to cost consumers this holiday season. Yeah, what's the next? I'm curious about what data points you're kind of keeping an eye on to get an idea of what happens maybe in the first half of 2026, or is it too soon to kind of make a bet on anything we see over the next couple of weeks?

54:02Well, I don't know if it's too soon necessarily to bet on, and I think the challenge is that some of the data is stale, So it's hard to extrapolate a trend from data points that are old or maybe incomplete. So as it relates to consumer health, and we're obviously focused on how the holiday shopping season plays out, retail sales data, savings rates, even just consumer sentiment, there's a number of other components and indicators that we can use to gauge the success of this holiday season and perhaps even the market's path forward in the new year. So good shape. We're in good shape? Very briefly?

54:40I think we're in good shape. Okay. Yeah. Unless you're buying five golden rings or you're getting ten lords a-leaping or 11 pipers. True love might not be. Is Oasis still touring? Yeah, the true love might not be in good shape, but the rest of us are in good shape. You're in good shape unless you're looking for Oasis tickets, because apparently Talia tells me they're not touring anymore. So that's it. You missed your chance. Amanda, thank you so much. Have a great holiday season. Happy New Year. Amanda Gotti, Chief Investment Officer, PNC Asset Management, joining us from Philadelphia. I love these kind of, they're just fun.

55:11We have fun with this one. But it's, you know. Those gold rings. Sometimes the price of gold does not go up. No, right? And there was a long period where it did not. So, yeah. But if you go out shopping and you're looking for jewelry. Gold rings, that's what you think? Diamonds are a better deal now. Might be a little expensive. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. We got another read on the economy this past week after Darden Restaurants, the owner of the Olive Garden and Longhorn Steakhouse, raised its comparable sales forecast, citing better than expected growth fueled by more affordable meal options and strong spending from higher income diners.

55:56The company also talked about beef prices, the CFO saying they are expected to fall next year as production increases. Some good news there, but overall we've seen really mixed results from the restaurant sector this year. Sweetgreen's CEO stepping down this week after shares dropped about 80 % so far this year. Cava is down 60 % from this year's high. Chipotle is down about 45 % from last year's highs. All right, so lots of questions out there when it comes to the restaurant industry. We wanted to know what's going on and how it and the U.S. consumer may fare in 2026. On that, we caught up with Michelle Korsmo, president and CEO of the National Restaurant Association.

56:33that's the trade group for the industry. So we've seen$1.5 trillion in restaurant industry sales in 2025, which is up from last year, but not as strong as it needs to be and not as strong as we want it to be in these really tight margin businesses. And what we found is it kind of depends on how you're leaning into that price certainty for customers. Value matters, price certainty really matters. And so you see that making a difference as they're also navigating all of the tariff and supply chain and beef price problems that you've just talked about. Yeah, we're going to get to some of the challenges in just a minute.

57:08So that's how your members are doing. Your members depend on consumers. From your perch, how's the consumer doing? And it's not monolithic by any means, but how would you describe the U.S. consumer right now? So the U.S. consumer right now, I would say, is very deliberate. They want to be certain about what they are spending and how they're doing it. And that's really a place where restaurants have been able to lean into some of that certainty in the offerings they have and the pricing. But it's definitely been a situation where we're not seeing as much traffic as we normally would. We always want to see those guest count numbers going up in restaurants, and it hasn't been going up at the level that people want.

57:50Okay, so I just want to go through some of the challenges. You mentioned some of the challenges. You said the tariff-related challenges, the beef price challenges. What is the biggest challenge that restaurants are facing? Certainty. I think with every industry and with every business, what everyone is looking for is certainty. And we certainly know that the president has an aggressive agenda to try to make a strong economy for U.S. consumers. But the lack of certainty actually creates something that feels quite the opposite. when restaurants are dealing with how to navigate different pricing, supply chain problems, tariff price increases, changing from day to day.

58:32That definitely gets to be a bit of a challenge for restaurants trying to serve consumers that are looking for that certainty. You know, one thing that we're seeing certain about is immigration. And this note from Torsten Slock at Apollo really caught my attention. He writes, from 2022 to 2024, net immigration was around 3 million people per year. The CBO forecasting that annual immigration in 2025 and 2026 will be around 500 ,000 people. Torsten writing, quote, this has important consequences for labor supply, wage growth, and housing demand. From a labor supply issue that affects your members, but also from a customer's perspective that affects your members.

59:14Which one is harder for the restaurants in the U.S. right now? Is it the lack of workers from immigration? Or is it lack of customers from immigration? That feels like a Hobson's choice. So without a doubt, the restaurant industry really cares about ensuring that we've got enough workforce to help provide that great hospitality that makes people love restaurants. And there's 988 ,000 open positions in restaurant and hospitality this month. So we need workers. And this is why it's been a significant issue for us to push for immigration reform. We need more legal pathways for guest worker programs, more opportunities for people to come in and do this work, even as a guest worker in a legal documented fashion.

1:00:00And so getting to that solution is something we're really pushing for for Congress, because we need to get people in jobs in restaurants. The consumers need it. Well, big problem. That's a lot of workers that aren't, that the industry needs. Is the White House listening? Are members of Congress listening? We never feel like they're listening enough on immigration. So there always seems to be - But are they listening less than maybe they were in years past, recent years past? This has been a difficult issue. In fact, some would call this the third rail in terms of issues that Congress deals with for decades, frankly.

1:00:37And we get close often, but we need to get it across the finish line. And so that's really what we're pushing is it's time for them to realize that it has to provide some legal pathways because we're seeing, I mean, those numbers that you're talking about with immigration coming down, I think we're going to see in 2025 in reports I've read that this will be the first year that the U.S. population will not have increased. And that's a significant impact on our workforce. And so we care a lot about making sure that we've got enough workers in the restaurant industry. You know, there's certainly a lot of places for technology to take jobs, but hospitality is still built on people and personal interactions.

1:01:17So we want those people to work in restaurants. And we want, obviously, a robust economy with lots of consumers that are coming in to enjoy those restaurants. Well, you know, and I just want to go back to the speech that President Trump gave last night, the primetime speech, and he talked a lot about immigrants and immigration. But he said a lot of the immigrants, and forgive me, and I should have the exact quote in front of me, but basically that a lot of the immigrants that are coming in are criminals and so on. What's the restaurant industry's experience with immigrants who come into the United States?

1:01:50And I realize there's legal, there's illegal. So I'm just, but there's a lot of folks that maybe aren't legal that are in the restaurant industry that you might hear that kind of on the side. So I'm just curious about that commentary from the president and the reality of what it really is all about. We don't think that that commentary tells the full story. And I think we want to start with a complete agreement that people that are breaking laws especially those laws that are hurting Americans, really aren't, as illegal immigrants, certainly not a place for them here. And so creating a safe environment for Americans is really important.

1:02:29But there's a lot of people who are showing up every day, working hard, being reliable, taking care of their families, doing the right thing, mowing their lawn, all of those things that make your neighbor somebody that is friendly and reliable that you want to see. And so this is why it's important to us that we push for more legal pathways to guest worker programs, because those people need to be in our communities contributing. And obviously, we need to deal with the people that are breaking the laws. But for those people that want to work hard and show up and contribute to our economy, let's find a place for them to do that.

1:03:05Beef prices still up 13 % so far this year, though they're down from the highs that we saw in August and September of this year. We've spoken to you in the past and we've talked about inflationary concerns, but it hits restaurants different because the margins are so tight. What are the biggest costs right now for your members? So beef costs for sure. We're seeing a lot of fluctuation on seafood. One of the things that we're seeing in the data that we're trying to figure out is a lot of data is showing seafood as a protein price going down, But what our members are telling us from our survey work is that they're seeing increased seafood prices.

1:03:45And so there's a lot more we've got to figure out there. And I think this is a place where tariffs or the threat of tariffs is really hurting that supply chain, especially as whatever happened to be in the warehouse under a pre-tariff price really starts to deplete. And so I think anytime you're looking at proteins, that's going to be a place where people are concerned. And then anytime you're looking at any kind of vegetable or produce, we want to make sure that those tariffs stay off as well, because we can't produce in the United States the amount of produce that we consume on a regular basis.

1:04:22And we certainly can't produce it year round. Michelle. Not in D.C. in the winter. That is that is true. And even in California doesn't satisfy the entire country or provide for the entire country. Hey, before we let you go, we got to talk about cold, hard cash, specifically the penny. I was surprised on our editorial call when our producer Ari said that this is a big issue for you guys, costing your restaurants 13 to 14 million dollars monthly in forced rounding losses. Well, explain what's going on with the penny. Well, it is certainly interesting and nobody really had on our bingo card for 2025 that we would be talking about penny shortages.

1:04:59But for some reason that we can't quite figure out, the Fed has stopped circulating pennies. So the Federal Reserve does a really important thing by keeping money and coins circulating around the country so that we've got the right level of those coins and bills in the right areas and regions. And right now, they're not doing that with pennies. And so we're seeing pennage shortages. And so often, consumers are coming in and paying cash. In fact, I think people would be surprised to know that one in four transactions in restaurants is a cash transaction. So people are coming in paying cash and often they can't get exact change.

1:05:34So that's creating a difficult situation for consumers, but also that difficult situation that you cited in the 13 to 14 million dollars a year in lost revenue for restaurants. Wow, that's a real number. It's interesting. My understanding is they stopped mining them because I think it costs more. But this is different. This is the Federal Reserve in circulation versus the U.S. not producing them new ones. So you mean pulling them out of circulation? Yeah, there are 300 million pennies that are in circulation right now in the U.S. And so there should be enough pennies rolling around that we can keep using pennies, even though they are not minty.

1:06:13Have they checked the couch cushions? Object mine. Or my husband's pocket. Or the washing machine. That's usually where they end up. Pick up those pennies. It matters. And those single socks. Michelle, thanks so much. Michelle Korsmo, President and CEO of the National Restaurant Association, trade group for the restaurant industries. You need to make a huge presentation in an hour. Adobe Acrobat uses AI to take all your documents and generate a presentation with a single click. Build slides quickly and streamline the process. Need a last minute pitch deck? Do that with Acrobat. Need to level up your presentation design?

1:06:51Do that with Acrobat. You have 30 plus documents that need to be simplified into a proposal. Do that. Do that. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds, and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called Generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R &D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins, or the S &P 500 minus high debt companies.

1:07:36Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public, you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and build a one-of-a-kind index. You can even backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash market. Add paid for by Public Holdings. Brokered services by Public Investing, member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, SEC registered advisor. Crypto services by ZeroHash. Sample prompts are for illustrative purposes only, not investment advice.

1:08:12All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Being a small business owner isn't just a career. It's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why they make business growth their priority. The Chase team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now, and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools.

1:08:48Looking for tips and advice? Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business. Learn more at chase.com slash business. Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026. JPMorgan Chase and Company. Deadlines move, plans change, and sometimes opportunities pop up out of nowhere. When you need branded gear fast, 4imprint is ready to deliver.

1:09:254imprint offers hundreds of promotional products in their 24-hour category. Everything from custom apparel, bags, and drinkware to writing tools, trade show staples, and high-tech gear. At 4imprint, they're focused on getting the details right, printing your logo with precision, packing your order with care and shipping it out fast. And it's backed by their 360-degree guarantee. That's 4imprint's promise your order will show up right on time, just the way you planned it. That's what it means to be 4imprint certain. So, if you're prepping for a last-minute event or jumping on a big opportunity, you don't have to settle or scramble.

1:10:01With 4imprint, fast, reliable service and peace of mind are built right in. Check out their full 24-hour selection at 4imprint.com. For imprint. For certain. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. Well, from Utah to California, ski resorts across the West delayed their opening days. This due to a lack of natural snow as well as temps that were too warm to make snow.

1:10:42So we're talking about Jackson Hole in Wyoming, Park City and Deer Valley in Utah, Schweitzer Mountain Resort in Idaho, Heavenly and North Star in California. They all opened later than originally planned. I'm going to let you keep going because you've been so excited about this. This has serious economic implications in the towns and states where these resorts operate. According to the Bureau of Economic Research, it came out last year and it said that snow activities in the economy for the U.S. was a$7.7 billion business in 2023. And that in Colorado, Utah, and California, it was the, quote, largest conventional activity.

1:11:16It's a big deal. It's a very big deal. Yeah. For more on the ski industry and how this season is looking, we welcome Bob Shea. He's founder and CEO of Surefoot. Surefoot is the biggest custom ski boot company in the world. They've got 29 locations in North America, Canada, and Europe. Bob joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio. Welcome. How are you? Thank you. Good. I'm really good. So for people who aren't familiar or haven't stepped foot into a Surefoot, explain the process because I think people understand ski boots, but then Surefoot takes the shell and then customizes it.

1:11:44What do you guys do? I mean, basically a person comes in the door and then there's some conversation with them to find out their history of skiing and how much they've skied, what level they're at and everything. And then they're kind of evaluating. But then the technical part starts. We put your foot onto a 3D imaging machine, which makes an orthotic for underneath your foot, the first step in there. And then we put you onto another image that takes a scan of your foot. So it really, what we do at that scan is we match that to the shell. So we basically have a visual of your foot exactly, and we match it into, we find the right shell for you.

1:12:20So now that shell matches your ability, your history in skiing, what you enjoy about the sport. And then we put it together with a custom liner that we make. And we have numerous different ones, about five or six ones. So we, you know, looking at your foot, decide from there which one's going to work best for you in the sport. And that whole process, because we've sort of packaged it all together on the same roof, just takes about an hour where we can go from you walking in the door to walking out with a boot that's totally custom fit for your foot and ready to ski in. You've done this. Yeah, I did this back in 2021.

1:12:55I finally got my first pair of Surefoot boots. I mean, I've lived in places where Surefoot has had locations. And finally, I was like, you know what? I'm getting to my late 30s. I don't get ski boots very much. It's time for me to have like a really comfortable pair of boots. And I've wanted a pair of Surefoots. And they haven't always been comfortable. No, they haven't. And you know, the thing is, is, and you know, I had a scan done in like 2000, let's say 2007 maybe for a pair of orthotics for cycling shoes yeah and they were able to tell when i went to the store that my foot had actually changed yeah since that so they had to make a they had to rescan it and do a new pair of orthotics based on the new scan because i guess that's what happens when you age yeah well i think it's it's most feet do that you know if you have some flexibility mobility in your foot it's wear and tear too right yeah but go ahead yeah yeah over time it really you know your foot's going to change a bit and the scans are extremely precise.

1:13:48So it's, you know, we can be talking about a minute difference, but that minute difference is a big deal. It's a big deal in biking shoes, if you're really into it. And it's a big deal in ski boots. Bob, how did you get to this point? Because to me, it makes a lot of sense. And I'll be honest with you, I wear orthotics in just general, and it just makes such a difference in shoes and sneakers and what have you. How did you get to this point? You know, really, it started, I grew up skiing and ski racing, and boots always just killed my feet. Like really, I have very wide forefoot and boots. You know, when you're trying to jam into a ski racing boot, it's just, there's a lot of pain.

1:14:22And I really, it took time off the slope. I couldn't stay out as long as I wanted to as a kid. And so over time, I just started developing ways to make it a little better. And then as I got done with ski racing in college, I was like, I don't want to leave this sport. I love the sport and I can make a difference in it. So that was really the impetus for it, you know, thinking about it. And then a lot of trial and error. I mean, crazy trial and error. What was the, tell us, what was some of the errors? I remember one of my first employees is that John Higgins was, you know, he was on the U.S. ski team, collegiate ski racer.

1:14:59And we were together, we were trying to make a pair of boots for me with a new, this foam material that we had found. so we we inject it into my foot and he gets it all over his hands everything and then i'm stand there and it feels like it's gonna break the bones in my foot i'm like john you you gotta get this off you gotta get this off my foot it's breaking the bones and a guy was walking by kind of through the back corner the space that we were in and he was a chemical engineer and he looks at john and goes if you don't get that off your hands in the next like 30 seconds it's never coming off So now John takes off to get that off his hands.

1:15:36Oh, my God. And I've got this on my foot. You're like, hey, hey. What about me? You ever made? I think it's breaking the bones in my foot. And I'm like, but luckily it didn't. And he got it off his hand. And we probably took a step back for a couple of years from that. But that's really how it began. So we're going to talk more about the origin story in a few minutes. And before we get there, one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is because you serve this higher end consumer. And we talk a lot about what the economy looks like right now. And just when you talk about skiing in general, you're already talking about a segment of the consumer that can afford to travel to a ski area, pay for an expensive lift ticket oftentimes, stay in an expensive area, and then do something that requires expensive equipment.

1:16:16Give us an idea. And you're a private company, so we don't have access to a ton of your own data. But how is the consumer you're dealing with right now? How are sales? What are some numbers you can give us? I mean, I think all of us are always a little, you know, you just kind of have this tendency when you're in business, you know, you're a little worried. But right now, things are actually going along pretty well. You know, business, we're up a little. But then, as you were talking about just before how we didn't have snow, we take a dip, you know, with that when it's early. But in general terms, we see the consumer is fairly strong, you know, coming in.

1:16:54And you know what's really happened, Tim? I think that people, recreation is just a bigger part of our lives. We all, you know, we want to do that. We want to be out there. And luckily, we're in the sport that people really love. Bob, have you seen that coming off the pandemic of people even like kind of that? Obviously, after the pandemic, it was like, I got to get out in the world because I couldn't for so long. But do you see it kind of lasting? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I see at my own company how many people aren't in there. I think it became more important for everybody. You know, it's like you're out of the office a bit, you got outside and it just, it seems healthy.

1:17:34And that's what to me, it seems like happening in the mountains. We look at it like it's a healthy place to be, to exercise and stuff. And so I think it's good for the, it's good for my business, good for the sport, my life. Well, people in New York City know that you have a store in New York City, but it's kind of a unique store because it's not near a ski mountain yeah every i think every other store that you have maybe save for vancouver uh or london yeah yeah you know is is right at the base of a ski mountain is new york your your like the biggest location in terms of what it does in sales it was the first it was the first city store it's not our biggest volume store you know we have that in the mountains but many of our stores are very similar in size but really why we put them here is because you know there's just people who want to there's different personalities they want to get it done before They go on their trip and those there.

1:18:23And now you can get the exact same thing. So really, early season, our city stores flourish. How busy are you right now? Is it crazy? Really, yeah. Honestly, it's the most fun part of my job. I was in the New York store this morning. And I love when it's just busy in there and everyone's talking about sport and skiing and enjoying it. uh very briefly you bought a company back in 2012 uh that is not a winter company yeah and now that's attached to the the store in in new york city in terms of running how big of a growth area is running for you you know that that's uh i mean the reason we got into running was because we were runners to stay in shape for skiing i mean you know we we all run and you know as part of it and then because the orthotics that we make the custom you know the basis of the ski boot is used by so many athletes and runners like Boston Marathon winners and so many people.

1:19:17That's where it really came from, is that we knew a lot about feet and running and what we could do with that. It's great for us. It gives more of a year-round business for us, more opportunity for people. You also don't franchise at all. I'm sure this has come up when people have come, hey, you should franchise this. Why not? You know, we get asked once a week about the franchising thing at least. But, you know, it's just that we wanted to have better quality control over it. And we want to give our employees opportunity. And that's what really comes down to is that we, in order to open more stores, we train people.

1:19:51And when they're ready to go to store, like our most recent store we opened in Big Sky, Chris Friardo, the manager there, worked for us a long, long time, and he wanted to move there. So we opened a store there. That's pretty cool. I think that's pretty cool. I mean, I'm also assuming that folks have reached out to either invest in you, buy you up, and you want to continue to go it alone. Yeah, you know, I think we've had minority investors and stuff in there, but we've also had some hard knocks with those. And so as long as we control the business and we enjoy what we're doing and we have my daughter is in the business, we have family in the business.

1:20:33I want to do it for a long time. Yeah, go ahead, Carol. What's your supply chain like? Is everything done in the U.S.? Do you have to... I wish it was all done in the U.S. You know, I really wish that it was done here, but we're not able to. There's just things that are not. So, yeah, we've had challenges with the supply chain right now. We try to mitigate them and the costs and the tariff. But the costs have gone up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's been a tough thing, too. And I really think I look back and think, wow, I'm glad this didn't happen when we were in business five years or something. I don't know how a small business gets through it.

1:21:08We're able to manage it a little better, but in there. The biggest story in the ski industry, obviously, is snow and making sure that people can actually get on mountains. The second biggest story in pretty much any ski town that you go to is the cost of living. I'm wondering, you are known for having these long-tenured employees who live in the communities where you have stores. And these are very transient communities because they're ski areas where people come for the season and then leave. How do you make sure that you can have employees that can actually live somewhere, like attracting and retaining a long-term employee in a place where truly nobody can afford to live?

1:21:47Yeah, it really has. I mean, we talk about it being so hard right now, but there's been many points where it has been. But what we've always tried to do is make our employees really productive. the whole system that they do, and then pay them the best that we can in there. But it is a challenge, you know, in there. And you have to, yeah, we have to deal with that. I mean, look at some of these markets. They're crazy, crazy expensive now. So we have some employee housing. But the real thing is how we keep people. You do have employee housing. Yeah. Oh, interesting. We have employee housing in all the big markets.

1:22:20But that's more for new employees that are, you know, coming into the company. Like to help them get settled and so on. Yeah, you know, their first, second year. But all of our, you know, management and everything, we've always wanted the company. You know, I always say if we're not going up, we're going out. We have to go up to give employees opportunity to keep growing, keep growing. And that gives employees opportunity. Their stores keep growing, get bigger. They can be rewarded more for that and compensated. But no doubt, it's a big challenge. Where's the growth in your industry? Like, how do you think?

1:22:53I mean, 40 years you've been doing this. It sounds like you still look for new opportunities. Constantly. I mean, really what it comes down to is we're still a small percentage. We're probably somewhere around 3 % or 4 % of the dollar volume of ski boots sold in the world. And so we have a lot of room to grow in that. Would you ever consider making your own ski boot? Just to remind everybody, you buy the shell from a company that makes the ski boot, and then you do the liner and kind of everything else. But would you ever make an actual Surefoot ski boot? Yeah, I mean, we have right now, we have 3D technology that we're working on with boots and everything.

1:23:26But I think as long as we can get the shell that we think is really great for a customer in the market, then we'll keep doing that. So what we really do is we buy the shell without the liner, so it saves the consumer money. And then we have a great shell on the outside and the interior we've made. But we are always working on, so if I come up with a great idea about a shell, you'll see it. I like that. But in terms of growth, like, okay, no offense, but I'm like thinking, wait, I got orthotics, but these sound better. Like, can you, in terms of the medical market or people who go to foot doctors, what's the percentage, like through your machine, like that you have?

1:24:04The percentage even in that market is, yeah, we're small. Even when we're one of the largest makers of orthotics in the United States, but like actually kind of a long shot we are. But we make so many in our stores. If you combine what we do in our stores and what we do in our factory, we're by far the largest. But there's lots of room because a lot of people don't really know how beneficial they are to you. So if something happens to you, if all of a sudden you have plantar fasciitis, your foot's hurting, you're aching from running, that's when you start seeking us out. So, Bob, if somebody comes in and gets an orthotic through you, I mean, is it covered by insurance?

1:24:40It is if they have a prescription for it. Majority of what we sell are not. That's not really true. In our medical division, it's mostly prescription. And then in our consumer, it's not. But they are covered. And they're the same scan. So we can do anything with that. It just seems like a mass market. It's major. It is a big market. Well, the reason you have that market is because you bought this company Amfit, the orthotics company based in Vancouver, Washington, back in 2023. You bought super runner shops back in 2012. Any more acquisitions on the horizon? You know, right now we're doing something really big that we're about to introduce our own line of footwear.

1:25:20and the footwear is made specifically for orthotics to fit your orthotics in it so so you have a perfect platform like right now in ski boots you have a perfect platform when we make the boot whole thing so you're standing totally aligned but a pair of shoes you pull out the insole the orthotics can be bigger than the insole so it doesn't doesn't fit quite right and you can't get it you know in there so we are in late in a few weeks we're about to introduce a line of shoes that is just for that. So when you get aligned, scan your body's put into alignment, you put it into our shoes, you're going to stand in a very balanced, comfortable position.

1:25:56You guys are doing this on your own, or is it a collaboration? We're doing it on our own. I think we're breaking some news here. That's pretty cool. You know, I debated whether I should even say this on here, but it's a big deal. We've been working on it for years, and it's really cool. I was just at the World Cup in Vail, and I had on a pair of the winter boots and I had like four or five people ask me about them. What are those? Where are they? I'm like, oh, nice. We have a little luck here with the product. Men and women? Yeah, we have men and women. Yeah, of course. We have men and women, ski, run, everything.

1:26:30Very cool. Hey, Bob, come back and hang out with us anytime if you're in New York. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Founded CEO of Surefoot here in the Bloomberg studio. This is Bloomberg.

1:26:42You need to make a huge presentation in an hour. Adobe Acrobat uses AI to take all your documents and generate a presentation with a single click. Build slides quickly and streamline the process. Need a last-minute pitch deck? Do that with Acrobat. Need to level up your presentation design? Do that with Acrobat. You have 30-plus documents that need to be simplified into a proposal. Do that. Do that. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds, and crypto.

1:27:22And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called Generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R &D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins, or the S &P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public, you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and builds a one of a kind index. You can even backtest it against the S &P 500.

1:27:57Then you can invest in a few clicks. Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash market. And paid for by Public Holdings. Brokered services by Public Investing, member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, SEC Registered Advisor. Crypto services by ZeroHash. Sample prompts are for illustrative purposes only, not investment advice. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Being a small business owner isn't just a career. It's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own.

1:28:34That's why they make business growth their priority. The Chase team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now, and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools. Looking for tips and advice? Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business.

1:29:08Learn more at chase.com slash business. Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026. JPMorgan Chase and Company. Deadlines move, plans change, and sometimes opportunities pop up out of nowhere. When you need branded gear fast, 4imprint is ready to deliver. 4imprint offers hundreds of promotional products in their 24-hour category. Everything from custom apparel, bags, and drinkware to writing tools, trade show staples, and high-tech gear. At 4imprint, they're focused on getting the details right, printing your logo with precision, packing your order with care, and shipping it out fast.

1:29:53and it's backed by their 360 degree guarantee. That's 4imprint's promise your order will show up right on time just the way you planned it. That's what it means to be 4imprint certain. So if you're prepping for a last minute event or jumping on a big opportunity, you don't have to settle or scramble. With 4imprint, fast, reliable service and peace of mind are built right in. Check out their full 24-hour selection at 4imprint.com. 4imprint, 4certain. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app.

1:30:33You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. Are you a circus kind of guy? I am a circus kind of guy. Are you really? Yeah, I'm a circus kind of guy. Carol, do you remember a couple weeks ago we spoke about the Tiger Global alum? His firm is betting on prying people off their screens. Yes. Money goes to travel, live events, fitness, or spectator sports. Right, and he's thinking about that in terms of investment plays. Yeah, that's what he's focused on. Yeah, so live events, definitely our next guest focus. Our company's behind the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey, Monster Jam, also Disney on Ice, Monster Energy.

1:31:12I don't even know all of these things. AMA Supercross. And the Super Motocross World Championship. Vroom, vroom. Come on, Carol. Says the dad of a little boy. We're talking about Feld Entertainment's family owned and operated. Here with us now is Juliet Feld Grossman, CEO of Feld Entertainment. She joins us from Florida. Julie, welcome. Good to have you on the program. Multiple events, 80 countries, six continents. You've got a great view of the consumer. How's business? So as you mentioned, we represent a number of different properties. Ringling Brothers, Barn Bailey Circus, Monster Jam, Super Motocross, and Disney on Ice.

1:31:47And across all of those properties, we do about 2 ,800 performances per year in 240 cities, performing to about 14 million audience members. And so we obviously see the economy from a lot of different vantage points, and we are in many different territories worldwide. I can tell you what we're seeing right now in the U.S. is really a tale of two economies, which is playing out across a number of other industries as well. So we see the affluent consumer who's excited to spend on VIP experiences, on merchandise, all of the plussing up they can get. And then, of course, we see lower middle income consumers having a harder time, less discretionary income due to other costs.

1:32:38in their lives. And so our focus is always on a very wide and diverse economic spectrum. So we put a lot of effort into reaching across that spectrum to customers and offering a variety of price points and reaching them through different marketing strategies to let them know that we're here and that we have all those options available. So who do you think your customer is? And I'm I'm looking like at Barnum, uh, Ringling brothers and Barnum and belly circus tickets, uh, for the Barkley center in 2026. And, uh, I'm just kind of scrolling up right now. I'm at tickets that are 95, 99. Are you at a reseller Carol?

1:33:19Or are you, uh, are you going directly? Event tickets center.com. Is that a reseller? Well, we hope you'll go. We hope you'll buy direct. Um, that is a reseller. All right. So talk to us about your pricing here. All right. I'm going to your site. Sorry. Google took me to the wrong place. I'm blaming Google here. So in the venue we've got thousands of seats. So based on how close you are, what position you are inside the venue, we offer different pricing. And in some cases we may also have different experiences connected to different price tickets. And so while we have front row tickets at a higher price point, we also have tickets that are higher up in the venue, add more affordable ticket prices.

1:34:07But what I will say is, you know, somebody who's been producing these shows for many years now, we always look to say, how can we make sure we have a great experience for everybody who comes to our shows? So we look at the quality of the production from many different vantage points as we're developing it so that no matter where you sit, you and your family have that great experience. You take home those memories and and hopefully you come back many more times. So in terms of the portfolio that you have, we're showing a lot of footage from Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey right now. But you also do Disney on Ice.

1:34:41You do motocross events, monster truck stuff. The portfolio in terms of where revenue comes from, how is it divided? Well, we have many different tours. So by volume, we have eight tours of Disney on Ice that travel globally. We have five tours of Monster Jam. We have one tour of Super Motocross at 31 events across the season that is also broadcast live. And then we have one tour of Ringling Brothers Farm and Bailey. But we're very diversified in terms of our consumer touch points. So we also have a merchandise business that accompanies all of our tours. We have a very strong licensing program across our own properties.

1:35:22We also have media and broadcast rights associated with some of our properties, too. We're Bloomberg, so we love numbers, but you're a private family-held company. Can you just give us an idea of size of revenue in 2025 or 2024, for example? We are privately held, so we don't disclose that information. Is it growing? Yes, it is growing. And one of the things that we've strategically been working on is, you know, we've been a company and business that's about that special day that day you get to come to our event and now we're increasingly working on building that 365 day presence with our customers building out a more franchise oriented strategy so with Monster Jam we since 2020 we've been the number one vehicle licensed worldwide that's according to Surkana and so we have a very robust retail program with Walmart, Target, Amazon, not only in the US but globally with Super Motocross.

1:36:22We are on NBC and Peacock with our live broadcast. We also have a video pass that goes to over 140 countries and that's a subscription. So we have a lot of different ways in which we're reaching consumers, we're building out those touch points so that we continue to stay with them all year round and be top of mind. I'm curious, your portfolio, how do you expand it? What would you like to add to it? Well, we're always looking at new opportunities. We continue to look at new IP because we are both a property owner and then we also license. And then we're also looking at new ways of growing along with the relaunch of Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey in 2023.

1:37:06this fall we launched a Ringling Kids channel. So we're developing premium kids content and a slate of characters that are introducing the circus arts and a lot of humor and circus talent into families. And so we're looking there at building out a more retail product line. We're building out media partnerships around that. And so we look at expanding our reach in that way. And with Monster Jam as well, we have a number of media opportunities underway, and we're excited to be growing not only our number of properties, but also the ways in which we're connecting with consumers and the monetization of those channels.

1:37:48Hey, on the circus side of things, you've produced the circus for years. I've always wondered where you find these performers and how you find these performers. Tim is thinking about, Juliet, you know, if this gig doesn't work out. Yeah. How flexible are you? Yeah, that ship has sailed. Not flexible enough. But, you know, is it like this is the major leagues. Are the farm teams the regional stuff all over the world? And you basically have scouts go and you find them that way? We have an in-house casting and talent team who travel all over the world. And they're visiting circus festivals. They're visiting schools.

1:38:26They're also in touch with a network of coaches and families and talent that they know. So we are sometimes looking at acts that are already developed and created, but we're often creating our own acts based on ideas we have for something that the audience has never seen before. What we always want to do is surprise people and bring them something that they haven't seen in a really new and exciting way. So with this new production of Ringling Brothers, we are so excited. We have a bike troupe from China that has never been to U.S. before, and they're doing incredible acrobatics on bikes, including at the very end of the performance, they have about 10 people riding on bicycles, and then one performer who runs across the backs of all the people on the bicycles.

1:39:18It is unbelievable. It has never been performed. I did go to an amazing circus in China. Okay, I love that. I was going to say, Juliet, you know, Tim does ride bikes, so I'm just saying. Not on a high wire or anything. Hey, on a serious note, you know, I think about circuses and acrobats and performers and different things. And a lot of times it comes from, you know, individuals who are from outside the United States. Immigration. How have you been impacted by immigration? We are fortunate. We have a very good team here who work on immigration, but we have performers from 17 different countries, and it is quite challenging.

1:40:00We do work very far ahead of time to ensure we can bring our performers in. And sometimes there are challenges in doing that. This time we were fortunate that we were able to bring in everybody that we wanted to be a part of this show. But I can tell you in our last production we had a group of male comedians who are from the Ukraine. and we actually had to get a special notice from the ukrainian department of defense to allow them to be a part of ringling because um they were not part of military service then so um we you know we worked very hard to um to work to bring the best performers here and i think that's something that really makes us stand out because we have this infrastructure to support what we're doing, we can bring in the best performers.

1:40:52We have a lot of experience and a lot of credibility as the greatest show on earth. Well, really great to get some time with you. I'm so appreciate it. I hope we can get you back in the new year. Good luck with the holiday season. Really great to have with us Juliet Feld Grossman. She's chief executive officer of Feld Entertainment joining us. This is the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Podcast. Available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app.

1:41:28You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

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