Mrs. Dow Jones on 'Zillennial' Personal Finance and Building Wealth

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2:06Even before Kim Kardashian had kids, she was putting money away in a 529 for their education and retirement. I'm Mrs. Dow Jones, your fave personal finance expert. Here's why rich people love 529 plans, and you should too. A 529 plan is a tax-advantaged investment account for future education costs. By contributing to one, you'll likely get tax deductions and credits. Kim Kardashian and 529 plans. That's the gift of Mrs. Dow Jones, also known as Haley Sachs. She's the author of Future Rich Person. The new rules for building wealth, even if you're stuck, broke, and that billionaire will not text you back.

2:42Also the host of the Financial Tea podcast, Haley Sachs, welcome. So excited to be here. Can I just say, like, this is not about me, but, like, I knew you way back when. We really did. Cheddar. Those were the days. Those were the days. Look at us now. I know. And, you know, you joined me on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange like a million years ago. Yes. And all the traders were like, Mrs. Dow Jones is here. The question that I have for you is a very Bloomberg question. Okay. The Dow Jones Industrial Average these days doesn't get a lot of love.

3:12Carol Massar:Yes, I know. Mrs. S &P 500 doesn't have the same flair. I know. How did you come up with the name that has stuck for so many years? You know, I always thought that Mrs. Dow Jones was about like being married to your own financial freedom and your future. And that really comes from investing. But when I created the moniker, I didn't think at all about like the legal implications of it. I was just like, this sounds fun. But, you know, I didn't think about the fact that like it's the Dow Jones. Like you don't really want to mess with Rupert Murdoch. They've been very kind to me, I want to say. But, you know, it could have gone either way.

3:44You know, you've been doing this for a long time. I think even before the concept of influencer was a thing. Yes. Did you ever think you could grow it into the business, the brand, the book, the podcast that you've grown it into? You know, I think that you always have that vision for yourself, but it has taken so much work. I've done this for nine years. And when, like when you said, when I started this influencing, wasn't a thing. Now you see all the data of like, you know, kids all want to be influencers. It's this, you know, job that people aspire to. But it was something that I was doing on the side and pursuing really as a passion project.

4:18And so, I mean, I always dreamed it would be coming here, but I didn't. I was betting on myself. I'm glad that we made it.

4:25Carol Massar:What was it, though, that made you? Because you studied film? I studied film, yeah. So tell me how you got to this. Yes. And like thought about, because there's so many books, as you know, and so many advice channels out there when it comes to investing and your financial well-being. So tell us how you kind of got there. what was it that you said, wait, there's something I can share, I can build and help others with? So I had such a weird path to finance. I was a comedian. So like my first job was for David Letterman. And then I was, and which was a gig working job. And then I was, you know, working all these 1099 jobs, trying to build my career as a comedian.

5:06And no one had ever taught me about money. I never learned it in school. And then I had this big break where I got a job for Lorne Michaels who started SNL and it was a full-time job. And actually my, the other person who got that same role is now on SNL. It's Ben Marshall, like the, I don't know if you guys watch SNL, but the guy with the red hair, he's now a big star now. So happy for Ben, but like we were cohorts. Um, but the first day of that job, I was so excited. I was like, yes, I finally made it. I'm like, you know, in corporate America, getting off the train at 8am, like this rocks. And they asked me, they had the audacity really to ask me about 401ks and health insurance.

5:42And just all these things that no one had ever explained to me. And I was mortified because I didn't want to seem like, okay, they made a bad hire. And so then I went home that night as any self-respecting, like millennial would, I think I probably stress ordered Thai food and was like Googling all of these terms. And what I found was either information for women that was like, so based in deprivation, like you know i literally read an article about rewashing your paper towels about how you should never buy a pre-cut vegetable from a grocery store i'm sorry that saves some time like you gotta time is money yeah you got time is money you know just no lattes of course no avocado toast like it just made your life seem like it had to be so small it's like cut out the manicure yes like yes in your life it's horrible or the information for men was about investing but it was so jargon heavy and it was like just not presented in a way that I really could understand and so I was eager to find someone who would make it like aspirational to grow wealth I couldn't find her so I became her so you saw you you saw that as an opportunity but yes you don't just immediately put content out there and put yourself out there and realize that oh this works right yeah no like there's an uphill battle here yeah there is a time it takes to like understand what resonates with your audience.

7:03You have to build that audience. Not easy. It's so funny being on the book tour because I was looking back and like seeing when I was about to break 9 ,000 followers or 20 ,000 or 40 ,000 and I couldn't believe it. But it's also crazy how much social media has changed in that time because when I started, the way that finance was presented in like a humorous way on social media was through memes. And so I was, and the only one who's really left of that cohort is litquidity um who still has a big presence but there were like maybe six of us besides that he's stayed everyone else has you know sort of dissipated um still memes still memes exactly and he's not really that public facing but like he you know has branched his business out in a lot of different ways he's done really cool things with it but you know no and no one was showing their face he only showed his face about like a year ago and so i and this was before reels were thing too.

7:59So I started to put up videos that I think were literally shot like horizontally on Instagram. It wasn't optimized for it at all about these money topics. And that's where it sort of started from.

8:09Carol Massar:How did you figure out though, like there, there's so much stuff out there about, you know, pay yourself, save money, take advantage of, you know, your employer's 401k plan. Like, how did you figure out how do I, you know, learn about what really makes a difference? what makes sense because there's just so much again and what's proven like how did you figure that out that's such a good question carol i think that it really is about testing like i mean you guys are on air all the time too i'm sure there's segments that go absolutely bananas that people really relate to and then you use that data like i really learned that my audience loves to know about generational wealth they want to know the secrets to that or you know they want to know about how to optimize their benefits.

8:55They love to know about negotiating, but this is all because I've tried that content. And then there's a lot of content that you don't see that doesn't work, you know, influencing or making videos online is a day by day game. So it's literally like you're getting a scorecard every day and you can sort of use that and recalibrate. You've built this into a real business. I mean, I saw, uh, in part of the book promotion, I saw you talk about how much money you're making. Yes. Yes. Can you share that? That's a big number. Well, I never shared the exact figures, but it definitely is a seven figure business.

9:29And I think the coolest thing is that I'm able to employ really great people and, you know, invest that back in the business and growing it. But I did share that I have brand deals that are over seven figures, which is pretty sick. I will, I'm using the word sick on Bloomberg. I think I'm the first person to do that. We've had other four letter words, not as lovely as that one. That's sling for really cool and awesome. But like you said, it's a team. Yeah, it's, oh my gosh. And that's what's so funny about releasing a book too is it's like, it's my name on the book, but it's been so many people building it.

10:00So you really can't do anything on your own.

10:02Carol Massar:So like, let's talk about what are some of the mistakes like people do? Like, I have to say there's one thing, page 105, emotional regulation. Like I do think about, you know, if you can take the emotion out of money, I feel like is so important. So it's not easy. Or even when you think about people in relationships with money, like the whole reason that no one talks about money in relationships is because of the emotional aspect. But if you just take that down a notch and you look at it as like, oh, this is a business decision that we're getting married. Of course, you're going to get a prenup because every business agreement has a contract.

10:36Yeah. So do it. Yeah. So do it. Get a prenup.

10:39Carol Massar:No, because then it's very clear, right? Yes. We know what the rules are going into it. But I feel like money and how, especially with couples or just how people spend, or even in like a family, if you have siblings and you're older and you're doing a house or something together, like you just, how somebody uses their money, you can make judgment calls and you have to be very careful because you can, you know, I don't know. But I think why what you identified so early and like it looks so simple and easy in hindsight to see this is that our generation is different than other generations. like student loan debt, the cost of buying a home.

11:14For those kids in college right now, going and finding that first job and dealing with the AI challenges. And I feel like millennial personal finance is really having a moment right now, maybe because we're all getting older. I don't know if that's what it is. Or because we're learning and everybody's learning that the classic stuff that our parents were told doesn't really work for us. That is such a good point. And that's sort of why I wrote the book. It's called The New Rules of Building Wealth because, you know, I read so many personal finance books. That's really how I educated myself to become Mrs.

11:50Dow Jones, like just by reading so much. And although I love a lot of those books in the canon, what I always would recognize was the information that they were giving was so outdated. And I think what's so cool about being a financial influencer is that I'm able to get real time data from my followers. So it's like, I'm reading this book and it's like in the canon and everyone's like, this is the finance book that you need to get rich. And then it's like, I'm in my DMS and people are complaining because since 2000, the cost of living has gone up 67%, but wages have gone up 7 % or like you said, inflation, student debt, AI, all these things.

12:26And so there needs to be new rules that meet us where we are at now. And that's why I wrote this book because I want it to be in the canon for the world that we're in.

12:35Carol Massar:So let's talk about some of the rules. So I'm just sharing our producer, Talia Sending, like if someone is starting at their first step or they're deep in a hole with debt or don't have any savings, what is the first step you think someone should take to get their finances in order? So the first step I would really recommend, and it's not rocket science, we've heard it before, but you have to have that emergency fund. Like you've just got to get that through, you got to really power through and get that three to six months in a high yield savings account. Because even if you have high industry debt, you need to have the emergency fund.

13:08Because if you don't, and you get into more debt, then you're just going to get deeper in the hole. So that's, and it also builds a lot of self-esteem. So that's always, I would say like the first step, You got to start there. What about if you have student loan debt and you want to, you want to try to get out of it, but you also want to try to save? Well, you know, something I talk about in the book is like, I think one of the old rules of building wealth is that all debt is bad, that we need to all be out of debt. But I mean, you guys talk to really rich people all day, you know, they love leverage.

13:36Yeah. And so something that I explain in the book is leverage does help make some people wealthier and it could a big way. No matter where you're at on the financial scale too, like you could be someone who's, you know, you're not a billionaire, but maybe you have student debt and it's below 7%, which is sort of the threshold of low interest rate debt. That's something in the book that I would say, it's actually okay. Let's just pay the minimum on it and use whatever action money, extra money that you have left over on these other financial goals, because you're going to be able to make more money than you would save paying that off aggressively.

14:08Carol Massar:What are the most common pitfalls or mistakes you see people fall into? You know, I think in this age of frictionless spending, it's really hard to hold onto your money. Like my, yeah, my parents' generation, they were advertised to 500 times a day. We're advertised to 5 ,000 times a day. 20 % of what you see online is an ad. And not only that you have Apple pay on your phone and you're using it like Apple be paying. Like you're just, you know, tapping and you're going. It's not money. It's just a tap. And, and it is this form of emotional regulation, which I think comes also from the culture.

14:42Like, you know, even when you think about sex in the City and Carrie Bradshaw and she would always buy shoes instead of investing. And like, you know, all the cool female characters in the canon are bad with money. It's sort of, you know, romanticized. And so I think that that's really what you have to work through first. There's a, there's also a conversation happening about like the psychology of money when, when people are used to making a certain amount of money, uh, they continue, even if they make more money spending the same spending in the same way. So I'm curious about spending money.

15:14And if people suddenly come into disposable income after working for a long time and living paycheck to paycheck. Did you see that graph from Goldman Sachs about people who are making$300 ,000 to$400 ,000? Yes. I just heard about this. They say they're living paycheck to paycheck. More than people who make$75 ,000 to$100 ,000 because I think that it's so much of keeping up with the Joneses when you get to that point. You're like, oh, this is my paycheck. I guess we should do private school. Maybe we need two cars. But I would say that those people are probably also saving very aggressively. So maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck after, after investing in the emergency fund, after putting money aside in their 401ks and 529s.

15:52I would, I would venture to say, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's all lifestyle creep. I think it's lifestyle creep. Wow. I think that you have to be really careful. Um, and like what, that's why I preach so much in the book about automation. It's like, I don't, I wouldn't be a millionaire without automation. Like it's, you need to be automating your finances. And when you get an increase in your salary, the first thing that you should do is increase the amount that you're contributing because you won't feel it right but then it's going to have such a big difference it's like it's i always

16:19Carol Massar:think about my mom like pay yourself first like you just do it right off the top and you just don't even miss it and you adjust to like what's the pot um we are at bloomberg we track the market day to day um i'm just thinking about casual participants folks who are just trying to understand the investing landscape i have family who are not always will come up like what book should I read? What should I do? Is there anything that you regularly pay attention to when it comes to the financial markets and that you think maybe that's what people should check on? Like, what should they do to get an understanding?

16:50Well, you know, I think that reading financial books is really important. Like that's a really great way. But there's something very different about understanding the markets and being like good with money. Like in the book, I make it very clear that you don't need to be a genius. You really just need like seventh grade math and some index funds and some automation and you can get there. And so, but you know, this is sort of a different flavor of person, Carol, you know, who seems to be really interested in the markets in which case I would say, you gotta watch Bloomberg. You know, I love me a little CNBC.

17:21I subscribe to a bunch of newsletters. I love the Wall Street Journal. Like, you know, you have to, you read the publications and you, you know, track it as you go, but you have to make sure that you are getting your information from credible sources. Is social media a credible source? It is when you have to be thoughtful. Social media has been so amazing in terms of promoting financial literacy. And we're even seeing it with Gen Z that they are putting more into their 401ks than any generation. And I have to point to social media as the reason that that's happening. Because they have education at their fingertips that no one else did, but they also have access to a lot of scams.

17:58Where do you see the best return on investment in content? Um, where, where are the people, where are people following you and engaging you with your content? Is it all Instagram? You know, I, Instagram is huge. Instagram's amazing. TikTok can go crazy, but like, it's a very emotional process. Like they could just give you like no views, no views, no views. And then you're getting like 3 million. You're like, I'm big on two. It's really hard to understand. Big ones on TikTok. Yeah. But like, you know, Instagram is way more consistent and I feel like I'm actually able to reach my audience. But I also really believe just in good content.

18:32Like I'm not one of those creators who's ever going to be like, the algorithm screwed me. Like if something isn't working, we're going to change it. Like I need to move with the times. Like I've been around for nine years. I want to be around for a long time. And that's just going to take a lot of flexibility going where the eyeballs are and figuring out what's next.

18:49Carol Massar:Haley, what's the question you get asked most often when people like know what you are, you know, what you do, what is your focus? What do you get asked the most? I mean, probably like what to invest in. Really? Yeah. Specifically. Yeah, what to invest in or how to negotiate. Do you tell people that they should own a house? That it's a good goal? I don't, no. I mean, I think that it can be an amazing lifestyle decision, but I don't think that it is the investment that like the American dream has. Do you think renting makes more sense? I mean, I'm a millionaire and I rent. Yeah, that's interesting.

19:19Come on. But it's like if I had kids and like a family and I really wanted to choose my doorknobs, I might do it as just like an investment in my life, which I talk about in the book too. Like not everything is about making money. you also need to leave room for lifestyle. But I think that this idea that you should make the biggest investment of your life, your house is not smart. Let's talk negotiating because you, I was thinking you don't really have to negotiate your salary. Me. You don't, but you have to negotiate these brand deals. Well, so I have a manager who does it for me, but, but you have negotiation tips in here.

19:47Oh, I totally, yeah, yeah. About how to get a raise. Yes. Oh, you got, what's the right way to do that? So the first thing you need to do is have a wins folder. Like I think people think at work that like their boss is just every day taking notes, It's like, wow, Carol, you did great today. Like, I'm going to write that down. Like, we're going to talk about that in your review. They're not. I'm sorry. You've got to. I keep track of the opposite, Carol.

20:09Carol Massar:What's that? Of the bad things? Just kidding. There are none. That folder is empty. Oh, my God. Sorry, please. I know what you're saying. You're not even saying. Yeah. And use that in your review. You have to go in with a case around why you deserve more money. That's number one. and then you've also got to make sure that you have a BATNA which is the best alternative to a negotiated agreement because if they come back and they say no or they push back then you need to be able to say okay well I want a higher title I want to work from home more things like that BATNA page 72 of the new book BATNA BATNA baby future rich person new rules for building wealth even if you're stuck broke and that billionaire won't text you back.

20:57Haley Sachs is the author, probably better known as Mrs. Dow Jones. This is Bloomberg.