Possible Clancy Retrial & Civil Rights Upheaval

0:00Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

0:42Healthcare doesn't always work great. If you've ever waited on a refill or couldn't schedule an appointment, you get it. That's the kind of stuff Optum is changing. They're using data and technology to integrate patient care, pharmacy, and everything else. So healthcare is connected, not complicated. What's that look like? Cheaper prescriptions that are easier to get and care that looks at the whole person. How you need it. Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Learn more at business.optum.com. This is Alexis Christophorus for Bloomberg Surveillance. Most companies have tried AI.

1:16Most aren't seeing results. Not because AI doesn't work. It's because AI hasn't reached the workflows yet. That's the gap Asana is built to close. Asana is the operating system for human agent teams. Ready-to-go AI teammates pre-built for marketing, ops, and IT. No prompt engineering, no setup. They show up where the work is happening, already onboarded in your workflows, ready to deliver. Asana, where humans and agents workflow together. Try it at asana.com. That's A-S-A-N-A dot com. This is Bloomberg Law. with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. Since a mistrial was declared in the trial of Lindsay Clancy for murdering her three children, one juror after another has come out to complain about the lone holdout juror who caused the mistrial.

2:06Juror Nick Dargy said the lone juror wouldn't explain his position or even lean on the evidence to inform his opinion. There was several times I would ask him to show us evidence or describe a witness testimony that helped to prove what he was saying, and he couldn't. The defense attorney has filed papers asking the judge to find Clancy not guilty by reason of insanity despite the mistrial. Joining me to discuss this case and other legal issues is Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County state attorney. Dave, the criticism and the investigation into this one holdout juror from the defense attorney, from the other jurors.

2:55I mean, have you seen anything like this before where a holdout was so criticized? No, but that's the Internet culture we're living in. Everyone is an Internet sleuth or there's There are conspiracy theorists. There are a number of people who actually believe that Patrick Clancy is the one who committed the murders, even though Lindsay Clancy admitted it. Her lawyer admitted it. You have to be a real ghoul to pile on a suffering father like this. Ridiculous. But when people are passionate, they've dug their heels in on a side, it reflects society, how we're at each other's throats all the time now.

3:28So I'm not surprised that you have these jurors ganging up on this one holdout juror. I'm just surprised that the juror was able to hold out because when everyone's against you 11 to 1 and you only think stopping everyone from going home to see their families, it's hard to say no. What do you think about what the other jurors have said about the deliberations and that this juror wasn't open to discussion and that he had doubt? Well, there's a question whether his doubts were reasonable doubt. There was a note to the judge that says that he had doubts. That's OK. You can have doubts and still find someone guilty.

3:59You just can't have reasonable doubts. And then the judge did what the judge is supposed to do. He called everyone in. He questioned every juror. He reread them the instructions. He even gave them the Allen charge, which is to go back in and really work hard to get to a verdict, a unanimous verdict. And in the end, the juror held out. That's the jury system. We give a lot of deference to people who serve as jurors and how they work behind the closed doors of the jury room. We let them battle it out as long as it's not illegal, as long as there's no physical threats, and as long as he follows the instructions.

4:35But quite frankly, even if he didn't follow the instructions, if there was jury nullification, that too is not suggested. It's not advised, but it happens all the time. Her lawyer asked the president to pardon her. Now, he must know that the president can't pardon someone for a state crime. He did it on purpose. He knew what he was doing. He knows that Trump cannot pardon someone for a state crime. But he also knows that Tim Cruz, who is the district attorney, is the only Republican elected district attorney in all of Massachusetts. He's one of 11, 10 Democrats, one Republican. And Tim is someone I know, by the way.

5:12When I was state attorney for 12 years, everyone knew Tim Cruz because he was a leader in the National District Attorney Association, well-respected, well-liked. And the play here is for the defense lawyer, Reddington, to appeal to Trump, who then can tell his fellow Republican to lay off and not try it again. But I know Tim Cruz, and he doesn't care what politicians think. He is motivated by the evidence and the law. Clancy's attorney officially filed papers asking the judge to find her not guilty by reason of insanity. Quote, no rational jury could find beyond a reasonable doubt that she had no mental disease or defect when the Commonwealth's own proof established that she did.

5:56I mean, that seems like an odd argument to make to a judge. The discretion of whether she gets tried again is all in the hands of the district attorney. The judges are not going to take this out of the DA's hands. It was 11-1. He's trying to essentially get the judges to say, now, go and override the jury decision here, which was a hung jury. It's not going to happen. But I think all this is to apply some political pressure on Tim Cruz, whether it's to ask Trump to get involved, whether it's to file appeals, whether it's to do press conferences, do interviews on major shows, is to try to make Tim Cruz feel that it's a lost cause, that 11-1 is a jury telling you not to do it again.

6:36And quite frankly, even though I'm normally on the side of prosecutors and I really do like Tim Cruz, I think when a jury tells you 11 to 1 that they disagree with you, it's time to cut a deal. I mean, they could revamp the way they present the case. Yeah. Put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig. It's not going to be easy no matter what kind of strategy they employ because there is real evidence that Lindsay Clancy was under the throes of serious mental illness. She had psychosis and you had all these doctors who seemed to over medicate her, medical professionals. I think the biggest evidence, at least some of the jurors, was the fact that she's not a bad mom other than the horrific murders she committed at the end.

7:18Like there's no evidence that she was trying to get out of being a mom and go on the dating scene like others we've seen. We've seen others who have been tried, some convicted, some not Casey Anthony, where they wanted to go party. And here you have a woman who, by all accounts, was a good mom who was under the throes of psychosis, was listening to voices in her head. And as someone who's normally pro-prosecution, I just always thought it was going to be near impossible to get a unanimous jury to find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder. Maybe manslaughter as just a middle ground so that everyone can compromise, but not murder.

7:53So you have the jurors talking. You have the majority of public sentiment seems to be on her side. And then you have Patrick Clancy, the father, who had, after the mistrial, called the prospect of a second trial extraordinarily painful. And he's going to appear on 60 Minutes on Sunday. Will this play into Cruz's decision about whether to retry her? I do think that public sentiment matters because when you're a district attorney, you're under an ethical responsibility only to pursue charges when you have a good faith belief. You can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. And even if you think the evidence and the law is on your side, if you know that we're not going to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, and then you add to it that the main victim who's still alive now, which is the father of these poor three kids, doesn't want to go through this again.

8:49You take that into consideration. In fact, you have to take it into consideration under Marcy's law. Victims' rights are there even though the decision is ultimately up to the prosecutor. But the prosecutor listens to others. What do you think a reasonable plea deal would be? Well, that is the big question here because you can't force someone to go into a mental facility for a certain number of years because the mental facility is not considered punishment. It's not a prison. You can do a plea deal saying prison for X years, but you can't do it for a mental facility. And what those of us who former prosecutors and current prosecutors are always worried about is that, well, yeah, you let her go to a mental facility and then the doctor says, OK, she's good now.

9:31Six months later and the judge lets her free and then she has more kids. You don't want that to happen. So I would think perhaps they can cut a deal where she serves a little time in prison, then goes to a mental facility. Or maybe she agrees not to seek the termination of her treatment after a certain time. But I don't know how you can do the latter. And I don't know when it comes to the former if Reddington, the defense lawyer, is going to agree to any incarceration. After all, he's playing with a stacked deck. He knows he's got 11 to 1. Why would he give in now? Well, he came outside the courthouse and said, we won.

10:07Well, that was a little bit of bluster. I mean, he did win in that it's not a conviction. But I bet you right now he wishes he didn't gloat as much because now he's appealing to Tim Cruz and trying to be nice to him because it is all in his discretion. He should not have gone out and chastised the lone juror, the holdout juror. That was a bad look and also really is not what lawyers are supposed to do. He did more than chastise. He accused him of committing felonies in the court, of lying under oath, and said he robbed the jury of their verdict. I mean, come on. Also, he shouldn't have criticized Tim Cruz, who's just doing his job as a prosecutor.

10:41He condemned him by name, saying that he didn't really care about the victims. That's why they looked down on his papers to see the names of the children. OK, well, if you're going to go down that road, don't expect Tim Cruz to offer his handout with a deal. So now you see him backtracking, but I think that he wishes he didn't say the things he did. We'll see how the judge treats those motions at the next hearing, which is on September 29th. Let's turn now to another tragic case involving the murders of family members. In Los Angeles, District Attorney Nathan Hockman has announced that he won't seek the death penalty against Nick Reiner, who's facing murder charges for the killing of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner.

11:27We have gone through a rigorous review where we look at the aggravating factors as well as the mitigating factors. We have spoken to the victim's family. We have spoken to prosecutors, law enforcement. Even though there's a lying in wait charge, was this a death penalty case? No. Also, the death penalty is not real in California. What was the last time someone was given a death penalty in California? I think the last death penalty case they had was like 2005. Was that the last time someone was executed there? And there's a moratorium. Governor Newsom has a moratorium. So he was never going to get the death penalty.

12:02So when people say, well, he gave up his leverage, meaning Hockman, the DA, who I have a lot of respect for, that he gave up his leverage in taking it off the table. He gave up his leverage if it was a real thing. It's just not a real thing. Yes, he did lie in wait. Yes, he did show that he tried to cover up his tracks, which shows that he's not insane legally because he knew the difference between right and wrong. Why did he hide? Why did he try to cover up what he did? Because he knew what he did was wrong. At the same time, he does have mental health issues. And at the same time, the surviving family members do not want him to get the death penalty.

12:34And at the same time, Michelle and Rob Reiner were vehemently opposed to the death penalty. So you know what they would have wanted here, life in prison, not death. So you can see why Nathan Hockman made the decision he did. What his defense might be. Oh, well, his defense is going to be insanity. They're going to say he did not know the difference between right and wrong. He does have an established medical condition. He has mental health issues throughout his whole history and, in fact, was displaying weirdness just before. He was at that party at Conan O 'Brien's house and he was creeping out the guests.

13:08So they're going to say, yeah, this was a mental break from an insane individual. The problem is that there's evidence of premeditation. The problem also is that there is evidence of concealment, of hiding. He ran away. He tried to hide in a hotel room. Why do you do that? Because you knew you committed a crime. So you can't really get the insanity of victory that others can get like Lindsey Clancy. This is Bloomberg. This is the first time of all the people we've brought in, of all the powerful billionaires and political people we've brought in for interviews and depositions, this is the first time anyone's filed suit.

13:48That was House Oversight Committee Chair James Comer talking about private equity billionaire Leon Black filing a lawsuit against the House Oversight Committee rather than comply with two subpoenas issued in the committee's investigation into notorious sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. One calling for him to testify under oath in a deposition, and another calling for him to turn over all nondisclosure agreements in his possession. And on Wednesday, the committee voted unanimously to hold black in contempt of Congress for defying those subpoenas. I've been talking to former Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Ehrenberg.

14:32Dave, he defied two subpoenas. Why wouldn't he be held in contempt of Congress? He does have some defenses. First, he has top-notch lawyers. Not only are they impressive lawyers, they're all connected. And they're going to be working DOJ to say, hey, use your discretion. Their defense is that Leon Black already voluntarily appeared. So it's not like a Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro situation. He appeared already voluntarily. And now under the subpoena, instead of just saying I'm not appearing, he went to court and sought a court order to stop it. Now that's pending. And so his argument is you guys jumped the gun.

15:07At least wait to see what the court says. On the other hand, there is nothing that prevents Congress moving ahead with contempt even while a court case is pending. Peter Navarro had a court case pending while he was not only referred but also convicted of contempt. He had a court case pending, so DOJ pursued charges and then got a conviction against Peter Navarro. But on the other hand, here in Navarro's lawsuit was garbage. It was like a scattershot lawsuit, whereas the one filed by Leon Black raises issues of privacy. They're talking about NDAs involving people who have nothing to do with Epstein.

15:41And so he's trying to say that the subpoenas are overbroad, that he's already cooperated, and that he is acting in good faith trying to get a judicial decision. So why would he be prosecuted for that? So we'll see what happens. Black walked out of that deposition after refusing to answer questions about the nondisclosure agreements. He had a decades-long relationship with Epstein and acknowledged paying Epstein$158 million over the years, which he said was for estate and tax planning advice. And the committee considers him to be an important witness. Here's Chair James Comer. There's a lot of concerning things in the documents.

16:24There are a lot of statements from the survivors that are very concerning as well with respect to Mr. Black. Would a judge really quash these subpoenas? President Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton testified before the committee after being subpoenaed. But Leon Black, no? Now, you make great points because there is a middle ground here. What he could do is to submit the information to the congressional committee and then seek redactions or at least be held in confidence for people who are not involved with Epstein at all. There are certain ways they could work that out with the committee.

17:05And it's like an in-camera review inside the four walls where no one else can see, at least not all of it. But he didn't do that. He went to the court. and you're right to bring up the Clintons because the presumption is that Congress has broad authority to subpoena people. And he's saying, well, this is not a legislative purpose. You've got broad legislative purpose. You could say we're looking at this to reform the finance industry to make sure they don't protect sex traffickers in the future. So I think that Leon Black's going to lose in court, but his defense is until that happens, he shouldn't be prosecuted for trying.

17:41Yeah, I mean, that$158 million that supposedly went for financial advice to Jeffrey Epstein? Yeah, that's the biggest question with Epstein that's still outstanding. How did he make his money? He made all this money and people are saying it's blackmail. We still haven't seen that. There really hasn't been anyone, I think, except for Bill Gates, who has accused Jeffrey Epstein of blackmail. But there's more there. This is not the end. And I suspect after this administration is out, we'll see more. The Justice Department A spokesperson said that prosecutors take the contempt vote seriously and that Jeanine Pirro, the U.S.

18:15attorney for D.C., will review the referral of Mr. Black carefully. What's your guess on whether or not they'll bring criminal charges? I think they probably do. I think that this administration wants to be seen as getting tough on Epstein when it comes to the low-hanging fruit. Like, look at the vote in Congress. It was unanimous. In the committee, it was unanimous. When do you ever see that? You can have a vote on the skies, but you wouldn't get unanimity. But here they did. So I do think that they're going to end up filing charges. But the one thing that could stop that is if a court acts, and I don't think, as you said, that the court is going to issue an injunction to stop Congress from moving forward with this.

18:55So he may want to take a lesson from Bill Clinton and say, OK, mea culpa, let's turn over the documents. I don't want to wear an orange jumpsuit. Speaking of wearing orange jumpsuits, the Tate brothers. Prosecutors in the U.K. have lodged a formal request for the extradition of brothers Andrew and Tristan Tate to face a total of 59 charges in the U.K., including rape and counts related to sex trafficking and indecent images of a child. The brothers lost a bid to be released from a Florida jail on bail last week. Any surprise there? None. I mean, it would have been a surprise if they got out. See, the presumption in international extradition cases is for pretrial detention.

19:38This is not a domestic criminal case where the presumption is to give you bail. Because in an international extradition case, why are you being extradited? Because you fled to another country. That's why the presumption is we're not going to let you out because you're a flight risk. Especially we have Andrew and Tristan Tate who brag about how many passports they have. I don't know what they have, seven, eight, who brag about how much money they have and their followers will do anything for them. They're like the definition of a flight risk. So the defense attorney says they're going to be challenging the extradition requests, arguing they were not backed up by information needed under the extradition agreement.

20:15I mean, even if that's true, I assume they can get the information they need. Is there any reason to think that – I mean, this has to go through the State Department too, right? So the process is you get put in jail pending extradition, and then you fight your extradition if you want to. So they're kept in jail until they get their hearing, and then they'll appeal it. And the longer they fight it, the longer they'll be incarcerated. So it's up to them whether they want to speed this up or make this linger. And it could take up to two years because they're planning on fighting it. And as far as their best chance of getting out, it's not in a court of law because there's really a low standard to keep someone and then extradite someone.

20:56When it comes to international extradition, is there probable cause? Yes. They got plenty of evidence. Are these serious crimes that be punished seriously in the United States? Yes. Do they have the right guys? Yes. So these guys are going home. And is there an extradition treaty? And there is clearly. The only way they would not be extradited is if Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, puts the kibosh on it. He does have that power. But why would he do that? I know Marco Rubio. I served in the state legislature with him. He's a religious guy. I will bet you he finds these people repulsive. He's not only going to lay down the tracks for these guys.

21:33If he did so, it would be the end of his political career. I mean because this is Epstein 2.0. Why would you want to lead with your chin? They'll either be in jail here or in jail in the UK. Yeah, exactly. That's why I think they should just stop fighting it. They were complaining about the conditions here. They were saying they're being treated like animals. They said they were treated like hardened criminals, like terrorists, because they were put in solitary confinement. And then the judge out of them and said, you're actually not in solitary confinement. In reality, you guys are cellmates, which is funny because it's like, is there anything that these guys say that is the truth?

22:09I mean, they're not in solitary confinement, but they're in the SHU, which is the special housing unit. And I guess they've watched too many episodes of Orange is the New Black, which equates the SHU to solitary confinement. But in the real world, the SHU is not always solitary confinement, and they're not. In fact, they're working as orderlies in the SHU. So they get out and about. They have more time with their lawyer than most other inmates do. We covered a lot of issues, Dave. Thanks so much. That's former Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Arenberg. Coming up next, changes to the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.

22:44I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.

23:08to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. It's time to plan ahead and make sure your brand is showing up in ways that can have an impact. That's where 4imprint comes in. 4imprint have promotional products that work as hard as you do. Durable, useful, and designed to make a lasting impression. Think quality apparel your team will wear again and again, including popular and exclusive brands.

23:50Drinkware that's enjoyed again and again. Bags, notebooks, tools, and tech items that don't just look good, but actually get used. With thousands of customizable options, 4imprint makes it easy to find what fits your brand and your budget. You'll get expert help, free samples, and their 360-degree guarantee means you can be 4imprint certain your order shows up just right, right on time. Whether you're gearing up for fall events or simply planning ahead for the season, 4imprint can help your brand show up, stay useful, and make connections that last. Explore the possibilities at 4imprint.com. 4imprint.

24:244certain. Let's talk about healthcare for a second. It doesn't always work the way people expect it to. If you've ever waited on a prescription refill or had a hard time getting the care you needed, you know the feeling. The system should just work better for everyone. That's exactly what the people at Optum are trying to do every day. They're a health care company linking patient care and pharmacy services and using data and technology to drive the whole system so care is connected, not complicated, for patients and providers. Things like making it easier to get care that looks at the whole person, from primary care doctors to mental health support and even in-home care, and then using technology to make sure they all work together.

25:03Technology designed to help doctors spend less time on busy work and more time with their patients. And those prescriptions? Optum is working to bring costs down, save patients money, and make it easier to get refills. Little by little, Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Head to business.optum.com to see how.