The Narcoterrorism Case Against Maduro

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0:34JPMorgan Chase and Company. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business, IBM. From coast to coast, unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sinesta, where restful sleep, friendly service, and trusted local knowledge are part of every stay.

1:16Red Lion makes it easy to feel welcomed, comfortable, and connected wherever the road takes you. Whether you're traveling for business or pleasure, you can spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sinesta Travel Pass, you'll get their best rates instantly. Go to Sinesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sinesta Travel Pass. Here today, roam tomorrow. Join now at Sinesta.com. Terms and conditions apply. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. As federal prosecutors are pushing forward with a broad drug trafficking and narco-terrorism conspiracy case against ousted Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro, President Trump discussed the case during a cabinet meeting on Thursday.

2:07He was a major purveyor of drugs coming into our country, and he's now been captured and, you know, I guess be given a fair trial. But I would imagine there are other trials coming because they have just, they've really sued him just in a fraction of the kind of things that he's done. Other cases are going to be brought, as you probably know. Maduro is already facing stiff prison time. If convicted, the narco-terrorism carries a 20-year mandatory minimum sentence. My guest is Alamdar Hamdani, a partner at Bracewell and the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Texas. The narco-terrorism statute is rarely used.

2:52Tell us about it. The narco-terrorism statute requires the government to prove that the defendants conspired to engage in conduct, first of all, punishable under normal narco statute. It's called Section 841A, and that is the distribution of, for example, over five kilograms of a certain substance like cocaine, and knowing and intending to provide directly and indirectly, and this is what makes narco terrorism different, something of pecuniary value to a group that's engaged in terrorist activity. So, you know, normally it's been used, for example, to go after groups that, for example, have supported the FARC, which is a Colombian designated terrorist organization.

3:39And, you know, it's rarely used as a statute that's not used that much. When I was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Texas, we had 400 miles of border with Mexico. I had probably the largest team of cartel prosecutors, and that statute is rarely used, probably because of a couple of reasons. You've got two additional layers of complexity that deal with the narcotericism statute. First of all, you've got to prove, of course, there's a drug conspiracy. And the larger the organization, the higher up the organization, proving that becomes incredibly complex. And add to that the additional complexity of charging somebody with providing some sort of pecuniary interest to a terrorist group or group engaged in terrorist activity.

4:28And I spent most of my career in national security chasing terrorists. And I can tell you just the run-of-the-mill material support to terrorism statutes themselves are complicated. So it is a A statute that is complex, has a lot of complexities in being able to prove, but is also incredibly powerful. Is there a reason why you think the administration chose narco-terrorism charges here? You know, I think it is. And I think it's just to make sure that they have several different options as it relates to somebody as high profile, of course, as Maduro and his wife and his son. right and several higher people within the government you know as a prosecutor one of the things we're going to do is try to bring of course charges that follow the facts and the law but i'm going to give myself many options when charging especially somebody as high profile as this so what you've got is you've got the traditional drug conspiracy statutes which on its face should be you know relatively simple to prove although like i said complex to how you go up a chain You've also got a couple of weapon statutes.

5:37One of them is pretty powerful. It's one that has a 30-year minimum. It's the one that relates to machine guns. And the reason I believe they added on, of course, the narco-terrorism statute was for two reasons. First of all, give themselves a second option when dealing with somebody like a Maduro. But also, it's part of the narrative. It's part of the narrative of the indictment. Now, this indictment is what you call a speaking indictment. So it's one where the prosecutors have said, let me tell you a story. And the reason they do that is, of course, first of all, to tell the public what's going on.

6:10Secondly, to deter others from doing what happened here. But most importantly, to let Maduro and his co-defendants know this is what we have. Right. And this is what you're facing. So what do they have? What do you know that they have from the indictment? So from the indictment, there's many different things that you see here. First of all, you see a decades-long conspiracy as it relates, let's say, first of all, to drugs. You've seen tons of drugs being exported out of Venezuela through Colombia to other parts of the world, including the United States. You've got people high within the Venezuelan government involved in this, including, and this is important, in prior indictments, they had two other defendants that were charged and they pled guilty, one in June of 2025 and one in 2023.

7:02And so what that tells you is the government itself has a case built upon not only, of course, documentary evidence, but also some very high-level cooperatives. And then what makes this indictment very interesting is how they lay out the rise of Maduro over those decades and how he used his power, his office, to not only, of course, enrich himself, enrich his family, but also enrich several cartels that have now been designated as foreign terrorist organizations. One of them, of course, we talked about earlier was the FARC. The other one, you've got Tren de Agua, which is, of course, based in Venezuela.

7:42You've also got the Zetas out of Mexico, which it also names. And so, you know, what you have with this indictment is a story about a man who rose up over the decades, used his growing power and influence to enrich himself, who cared not about the drugs that were leaving his country, and in fact, invited that to also enrich himself. You saw a family, at least according to the indictment, that was equally as corrupt. And then finally, what I found interesting in this indictment is beyond all the other things I've just talked about, right, is that the government questions the legitimacy of Maduro as a leader.

8:26and they talk about the 2024 election, which he lost, but he claims he won. And he, hence, what they do is say, because he's an illegitimate leader, I think the implication is later on, if his defense says, well, we have immunity, we have diplomatic immunity because he is the leader of a state, the government's response is going to be, no, he isn't. He is the illegitimate leader. He calls himself one, but he is not one. There was an executive order that declared drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations. Does that cut with too wide a swath? So on February 20th, Secretary of State then declared not all cartels, but eight cartels in Mexico as foreign terrorist organizations, including, for example, Cartel del Noreste, the Sinaloa Cartel, the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, also known as CJNG, and the Gulf Cartel.

9:24Those are the four big cartels in Mexico. And if you go to Mexico, they run swaths of Mexico. In addition to that, the Secretary of State also designated Tren de Agua out of Venezuela as one of the cartels, as foreign terrorist organizations. And I'll tell you this. The one thing about cartels that I learned, especially as the U.S. attorney, I remember I used to get up in front of cameras when I was announcing charges against cartel members. I mean, it was a very important thing to do. And I would say, I would say my goal is to disrupt and dismantle the cartels. But I also understood that once we cut off the head of a cartel, another one would grow.

10:03Whatever you think about this administration, its designation of cartels, which I would argue organizations only hell bent on one thing. And that is to get as much money as they can at the expense of anything, at the expense of lives of public officials, of police, of innocent people. They will do it just to get an extra dollar. And so I would argue that designated as foreign terrorist organizations may help up the one source of lifelines that they have, the blood that runs through their veins, and that is money. And so if organizations, if companies, for example, say, I cannot hire this company in Mexico because this company I'm hiring is related to the cartels, and I could be charged.

10:51my organization could be charged with providing material support to terrorism. And, you know, I'll give you a great example. In 2021, a company called Lafarge out of France was the very first and only company so far that has pled guilty to providing material support to terrorism. What it did is it went to Syria a decade earlier and tried to work with Syria. And then within there, they had to hire ISIS as their security. Anyway, in the one year they worked in Syria, they made$70 million in revenue. When they pled guilty, they paid a$778 million fine. It was a company-defining charge. And so a long way to say this, companies that provide assistance to cartels are now on notice that they could be facing charges of providing material support to terrorism.

11:47So the argument, I think, is this is another incredibly powerful way to maybe finally disrupt and dismantle cartels. In the initial 2020 indictment of Maduro, there was a claim that he was the leader of the Cartel de los Solos. But that allegation is missing from the current indictment. So in the current indictment, they talk about the Cartel de los Solos, the Cartels of the Sun, which is an organization in Venezuela that really involved the higher up military part of Venezuela. But you're right, when it comes to the drug trafficking activity and tying it to a terrorist group or terrorist activity, they really focus on Tren de Agua, the FARC, which is that Colombian terrorist organization, and a couple of Mexican cartels.

12:42They mention the cartel de los Solos, but they don't mention it in that vein. Interestingly, though, June, in November of last year, which I found to be interesting, the Secretary of State declared the Cartel de los Solos a foreign terrorist organization. And so, you know, I don't know if that was done in anticipation of this indictment coming down in January. But that is an interesting thing that the Secretary of State has done. I think it's another indication for companies and for those doing business in Venezuela. Stay away, of course, from the Mexican cartels and Trenda Agua, but also stay away from Cartel de los Solos.

13:17Stay with me. Coming up next, why the judge refused to dismiss the case against Maduro. I'm June Grasso, and this is Bloomberg. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.

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15:4615 million people already trust Wise to manage their money internationally. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. Terms and conditions apply. Ousted Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro and his wife appeared in a Manhattan federal court Thursday as the U.S. is pushing forward with a broad drug trafficking and narco-terrorism conspiracy case against him. Prosecutors claim that Maduro, who was seized by the U.S. military on January 3rd, played a key role in a conspiracy to traffic cocaine in the U.S. They also alleged that he and others partnered with groups designated by the U.S.

16:30as foreign terrorist organizations and that he sought to enrich himself while serving in government more than a quarter of a century. An early flashpoint in the case is that Maduro claims the U.S. is preventing him from receiving money from the government in Caracas to pay his legal defense. I've been talking to former U.S. attorney Alamdar Hamdani. Tell us what the prosecution would have to prove to get a jury to return a conviction on the narco-terrorism charge. You know, if I'm preparing my case against Maduro in this indictment, I'm going to be looking at a couple of things. First of all, like I said, I've got to prove that not only was Maduro and the other five co-defendants part of a large drug conspiracy, but I've also got to prove that that drug conspiracy financially benefited terrorists and terrorist activity.

17:27And so as a prosecutor, I am looking at several things. First of all, I'm going to be looking at witnesses. Those are going to be the biggest part of my case, because how do I get into the head of a Maduro? How do I get into the head of Maduro's wife and his son and others high up in the government? The best way I can do that is through the testimony of cooperators. That, of course, also brings itself a whole host of risks. And in this case, I talked about two former co-defendants pleading guilty, which is good for the government, but also adds a layer of risk for the government. If I'm the defense, what I'm going to be doing is really concentrating on those two former co-defendants.

18:08and the deals they got, and then really harping on the fact that, you know, they were also part of the drug activity. And so why should we believe them in what they're saying? They're just trying to save themselves. In addition to that, because this is, you know, a foreign jurisdiction, my guess is, and I do not know this, but my guess is there are, of course, foreign wiretaps that are going to have to be not only looked at, but also protected if need be. My guess is the Central Intelligence Agency is probably very active and has been active in that area. So there's going to be sources that I may use if the CIA will let me.

18:43And if not, I have to figure out how to protect. And those are the added complexities of dealing with especially national security issues. You know, if I'm a prosecutor, what I'm looking at is two things. First of all, how do I make my drug case? I got that. Secondly, how do I tie him to terrorist activity? Okay, I got that. And there's another account that talks about machine guns. I think I'm pretty good at probably proving that he had machine guns. But the other part that gives me heartburn when I stay up at night is what else is all out there? For example, you know, is there information in the CIA's files that I have not seen?

19:19Is there information in the NSA's files I have not seen? Is there information that a foreign government provided to us that I've not seen as a prosecutor? And how is that going to affect my case? And if it, for example, helps the defense, that I have a constitutional obligation to provide that to the defense. And how do I provide that and still protect sources and methods? And those are all the different things I'm thinking of as a prosecutor as I'm walking through this case. There have been very few convictions in the 20 year history of the narco-terrorism statute. So do you think this is an uphill battle for prosecutors?

19:56Yeah, I think generally in a case like this, it is always going to be a sophisticated complicated, complex case, which makes it difficult, right, if I'm a prosecutor. But, you know, on all the terrorism cases I prosecuted, I can tell you going in, I knew they were difficult, even though the facts may be simple, because I'm dealing with issues, you know, like terrorists, I'm dealing with classified issues, there's complexities that are already built in. So that's the kind of case the prosecutors will have. Now, in their indictment, they were careful to name several different terrorist groups, foreign terrorist organizations, in fact.

20:33And one thing that's, I think, comforting if I'm a prosecutor in this statute is I do not have to prove that Maduro financially benefited or financially helped a foreign terrorist organization like the ones we talked about earlier, but just that his dealings in cocaine, for example, financially benefited terrorist activity. Now, the reason I mention foreign terrorist organizations, because to a jury, that's a simple leap to make. If I'm talking about Tren de Agua, and it is already designated as a foreign terrorist organization, then it's a small leap to make for me to say, and because that cocaine activity benefited that organization, then it benefited terrorist activity.

21:15And the easiest one, of course, is the FARC because of its proximity to Venezuela, the next door neighbor in Colombia. So as a prosecutor, this is going to be a long trial. It's going to be one where the defense is really going to attack the credibility of the witnesses I've put up to corroborate the evidence I have. But it's one that I'm going to be ready for. And in this case, unlike many districts, the Southern District of New York has an embarrassment of riches and really good prosecutors. But also because unlike the Southern District of Texas, where that district had more indictments than any other district in the country.

21:52And why is that? Because there's so many immigration crimes. and low-level drug crimes that come across that border. So because of that, the prosecutors I had were usually either one or two on a case. It's tough to put more than two people on a case, even a complex case. In the Southern District of New York, there are four assistant U.S. attorneys on this case. That tells you something. That tells you that this office has dedicated four of its best prosecutors onto this case. And so, you know, again, it's one that's not insurmountable. It's one that's going to be always tough. And it's one, if I'm the defense counsel, that I'm always going to be worried about.

22:27Maduro is expected to mount several defenses before trial, one being that he's immune as a head of state, another that he was kidnapped and taken into custody illegally in violation of international law. Do you think any of those will be successful? I don't think they've fared well in other cases. I don't think legally, I don't think the judge is going to dismiss the case. because of the head of state immunity issue, for the reasons I stated, for example, because of how they've drafted this indictment and how they've characterized Maduro. And on the issue, you know, of how he was captured, it's always been a longstanding principle that how somebody gets to the courtroom is really of no consequence when it comes to the viability of the charges.

23:13And that's going to be the case here, I believe, as well. Now, prosecutors aren't immune from something called jury nullification. And that is the idea that, you know, no matter what the evidence is put on at trial, because of a reason such as there's an overriding sympathy or an overriding, you know, maybe an injustice that the jury feels, they will still rule against the United States. And so jury nullification is always a concern for prosecutors. And so the defense will probably bring up and try to bring up and the prosecutor should try to stop this from happening, But they will bring up, hey, my guy was taken out of Venezuela, kidnapped by, you know, by the military and taken to a court in Manhattan.

23:55He was the leader of his nation and thrown into a prison in Manhattan. And they will try to use that to, of course, make a jury nullification argument. But I think legally the case will survive those two issues. When Maduro and his wife appeared in court on Thursday, there was an argument about why the U.S. government was preventing him from getting money from the Venezuelan government to pay for his legal defense. And the judge said he wasn't going to dismiss the case, but he questioned why federal prosecutors weren't allowing the Venezuelan government to give him money for the legal fees. So, you know, let's go back and fundamentally look at who Maduro is and his wife, who they are.

24:43They are criminal defendants in a U.S. court of law brought in under a U.S. indictment. So they have, like everybody, six amendment rights. And that six amendment right, the most basic, one of those basic rights is you have the right to your choice of counsel. So the argument being made by the defense in this particular case is, hey, look, Maduro and his wife want to hire us as their counsel. They have chosen us to be their counsel. The problem is the funds that it would take to pay us, you know, would be paid for by Venezuela. And Venezuela, I'm assuming the government of Venezuela is willing to fund the defense of Maduro and his wife, despite how they're maybe being friendly to the United States right now.

25:26that said the government of Venezuela is willing to pay those defense costs. The government of the United States, the prosecutors come back and said, wait a second, wait a second. Venezuela is a sanctioned country. And you need an OFAC license, an Office of Foreign Asset Control license issued by the Department of Treasury to do anything, to get anything paid for by Venezuela, to deal with Venezuela. What was interesting in this case, a few days after he was arrested, OFAC actually granted a license for the defense to go ahead and use funds from Venezuela for Venezuela to pay for his defense. Then a few days later, OFAC reversed course, and the government's now arguing, oh, that was an error.

26:08That wasn't supposed to happen. And so the basic argument by the defense is because we can't have access to those funds, we as lawyers, and because Maduro can't have access to those funds, Maduro can't use and can't choose the counsel of his choice. The government's response is these are sanctioned funds. This is a slush fund created by you, Maduro. You don't get access to your own slush fund. And secondly, Maduro, you have access to the federal defender's office if you want. You get access to free counsel. And then the argument by the defense is you're going to overwhelm that federal defender's office with this one case.

26:44And, you know, they should have the counsel of their choice. So it's a very interesting argument. They've asked, actually, the court to dismiss the case because of that. The court's not willing to dismiss the case, I don't think, because of that. But they've got to find some sort of solution. And like you said, they expressed a concern about, you know, if Maduro's out already, what's the national security concern for the OFAC license? And if Venezuela is cooperating with the United States, you know, with oil extraction, you know, having his vice president take over, then, you know, what is the national security concern in general?

27:21So those are the arguments that are coming out. Interesting, fascinating case. You know, as I thought through this case, and one of the things as I think through the future is, you know, how will not only this administration, of course, use the narco-terrorism statute, but how would other administrations use the narco-terrorism statute to dislodge dictators, to dislodge what they consider to be illegitimate leaders? So one of the things about this case that's interesting is I think dictators and despots of the future be on notice that the United States may come after you, not with a war, but maybe with an indictment, you know, brought out by the Southern District of New York.

28:01Thanks so much for joining me on the show. That's former U.S. attorney Alamdar Hamdani, a partner at Bracewell. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, the courts are asking Congress for more money for security measures to defend federal judges from increasing threats. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. Court officials are asking Congress for more money next year for security measures as the federal judiciary combats heightened threats to judges. Officials say these security efforts are, quote, more urgent than ever before because security incidents of significant concern for judges increased by 57 percent last year and are on pace to rise again.